We lack speed and elusiveness at the skill positions for what’s needed in a true spread system. Some of that is made up for in size, and I agree the arm punts need to be more prevalent, which have been the only big play source thus far.
DPJ is probably the only rotation player that has above average speed for their position and he’s just now getting back to being healthy. Everybody wants to rag on Shea or blame play calling (some of which is deserved) but from my vantage point we don’t have guys getting much separation. The windows are almost always tight and teams don’t have to fear a back busting lose for a big run either if they miss a run fit.
Think about the first play against Wisky where Bell is caught inside the 10. Should have been a TD and we all know what happened next. None of OSU receivers are getting caught on that play. From what I saw of Iowa’s top guys I don’t think are either. You score there, who knows where that game goes.
Speed has not been a big priority in offensive skill recruiting for this staff and I think it‘s a major factor on the field. Shrinks the margin of error greatly.
Everybody wants to keep talking about all the offensive talent not being utilized but I just don't see it. Throw out recruiting rankings and go by the eye test on the field.
I watch a lot of college football and in my view we're below average at running back, receiver and quarterback. Tight ends are above average. Hard to identify the level of raw talent on the line but it does not seem all that high but obviously experience and cohesion are just as important there as physical talent.
I don't care how many 4 stars are out there, I see a lack of speed and athleticism at the skill positions outside of DPJ and that goes way beyond youth. Our backs get what's blocked and little more, the receivers struggle to get open, even on fly routes which should be an opportunity to showcase athleticism against inferior talent and we all know the QB issue. Yes, we're obviously young - so is Michigan State.
I'm just as frustrated as everybody on the offensive game plans but I think the bigger issue is talent. There is just no explosiveness which means you've got to move down the field in 5-8 yard chunks, which means more plays and more chances for errors and turnovers, requiring perfect execution. That's hard enough to do in the NFL when it's your full time job, much harder for college players.
Everybody compares us to Stanford. Comparable, conservative offenses, but look at the difference in talent at running back the last few years. When our offense executes a run play perfectly we get maybe 15 yards. When they do, McCaffrey or Love take it to the house, whether's it's from 20 yards or 80. They have had QB issues as well which is why they've dropped a couple games but raw talent helps cover up a lot of issues.
Agree 100%. Especially after watching PSU and Clemson's receivers consistently making the 50/50 type catches. We lacked that, especially the last 3 games
As much as it pains me to say it, right NOW they are not little brother. They are bigger, stronger, and faster than us at nearly every position. The fact that we hung in there and had a chance to win speaks to the heart and character of this team. We lost to a better team - I think the best team we will play this season.
Frankly, minus the complete thuggery they show and an asshat coach, it's the kind of team I look forward to watching in the Big House very soon.
I also think their game versus Wisky has a chance to be very interesting. I think MSU will have a chance to win it.
To me the visit timing seems to be a good sign for MSU. it seems like when you schedule a visit after a possible commit date, that school is your likely choice.
An alum who finally decided to try to get off the wait list w/ a $2500 donation. First time making a donation as we had been content buying season tix from someone else.
FIngers crossed I guess. Hope it's enough. Hopefully it's in the mail in the next few days!
I agree there needs to be some upward movement in the assistant salary pool. Top talent costs money. UM upped the anty for a head coach with RR but kept the assistants' pay at Carr levels. The "We're Michigan" mantra only goes so far and has lost some clout after these last few leaner years.
Wasn't there a rumor back in 2007 that lack of money available for assistants may have factored in the Less Miles fiasco?
There are reasonable arguments on both sides. There's obviously a lot of youth and inexperience and it's easy to play 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' with all the drops, fumbles, poor special teams play and the like.
You can make a logical argument that a lot of that will get better with experience. You can also make a logical argument that athough they'll be more experienced, there are still precious few difference maker caliber athletes on defense, and even offense for that matter, outside of Denard. Rght now I see a small, slow defense. Some of the size will take care of itself with age and time in the weight room, but the speed will only improve incrementally with the current personnel.
I think RR needs to tweak his philosophies in recruiting a bit otherwise the struggles against bigger, more physical teams will continue. I even wonder if some of the problems with injuries this year are a byproduct of smaller bodies continually running into larger bodies.
They talked about it a littlle bit during the Stanford-Oregon State last night. The announcers said Harbaugh refused to talk about the 'Michigan Cloud' as they called it, saying 'What cloud?' and that he's in a 'football bunker' just focused on winning football games etc.
I don't see much difference in size between WV's D-line and ours. The problem is transistioning that to the B10 or any other real BCS conference. To run it effectively you will need that 300+ lb NT. I think WV's current D would also struggle against B10 power run teams.
However, you put a Terrence Cody sized NT and a couple 290 lbs DT/DE's and I think it could absolutely work in the B10 w/ the right coordinator.
The way M runs the 3-3-5 and the way WV runs it bear almost no resemblance to each other. WV is much more aggressive with their deployments, more blitzing, more slants, etc. They also seem to be much more aggresive going after strips (or Pitt just can't hang onto the ball).
Kind of getting sick of the 'scheme is overated' mantra RR is selling with regards to the defense. I think it's true of sound defensive schemes like 3-4/4-3, or even a true attacking 3-3-5 w/ linebackers playing at proper depth.
However, I don't think that applies to the bastardized 'thing' that we've thrown out there most of the year, particularly against PSU and Wisky. Obviously, youth and physical development are hindering things but the defensive gameplan is doing a poor job of getting guys in position to make plays.
Very good breakdown. Unfortunately, it confirmed my thoughts that the offense has not been very effective against quality teams when the game was truly in doubt.
I think there are reasons for the variability (lack of experienced QB, lack of a dynamic RB, feeling pressure to score every drive because of the D, etc.) but it is a big concern.
On another, note Wisconsin's PPD really looks impressive compared to the rest of the league. Curious how that would stack up nationally.
I think most of the predictability in the second half had to do with shaky QB play and the wind/rain.
I also think Purduce's D definitely deseres some credit as well. They had a very good day against our O-Line. I also just looked up that they only gave up 303 yards to Wisconsin last week - in the sunshine vs. the 395 we had in the slop. Obviously yards aren't everything but it shows they're D isn't full of a bunch of stiffs either.
I agree. He wasn't missing the wide open hitches early in the year. You've got to believe that amoeba-shaped brace on his shoulder can't be helping things.
Agree with a lot of what you said, especially about the freshman. While you expect mistakes, you expect some plays to be made. We're not seeing that. I think the reason is some questionable coaching and a lack of talent.
Experience is great, but raw talent adn good coaching have to be in place for that experience to be maximized. RR keeps talking about how they need to get faster and more athletic on D. Well, the areas he's mentioning, most of these players are his recruits. The recruiting on defense has to get better and they have to bring in some kids that have the ability to contribute right away.
Though the small sample size caveats apply, still interesting. I definitely feel the offense is not quite as good as the numbers indicate. You could have also used data from the second half of the IU game where we had numerous chances to go up 2 scores but kept going 3 and out instead.
I think some of that is certainly attributed to D-Rob's health. From my view, his shoulder must be causing some issues because he is just missing way too many easy throws right now that he was making with ease earlier in the year. It's really unfortunate that we have to keep running him 25+ times a game, making it very difficult for the shoulder to heal. And from what I heard RR say in a pre-game bit before PSU, it sounds like they've had to curtail his throwing in practice too.
It would be so nice if we could get more production out of the RB position. DR's overuse in the run game is now having an adverse effect in the pass game. Hopefully, that sharpness with return yet this year but I'm not sure it possibly can given then number of hits his shoulder takes.
Well put on the Dantonio issue. Wojo raises a good point about the 'growing arrogance' he seems to be portraying.
In many ways I could care less if Rucker ever plays for them again, I'm just so damn sick of hearing how honorable and full of discpline he is. It's amazing all the leeway he has gotten on this considering he's basically been a 0.500 coach before this season. Hopefully the fawning will be somewhat muted going forward.
Remember that Tate was making most of those plays against a defense protecting a 2 or 3 TD lead. Don't get me wrong, he played great but he also threw a bad pick in the 3rd Qtr on a very ill advised throw.
The struggles the last couple of games have most certainly shortened the leash for Denard but I think the ceiling for the offense is still higher with him in the game IF he can get back to the way he played earlier in the year. Obviously the competition is much better but ne needs to be more accurate on the easy throws that he has been the last two weeks. He seems so much more hesitant and is just not trusting what he sees. I know he was 13-18 but many of his short throws were inaccurate either low or high that killed the play, even though complete.
I wouldn't mind seeing them both play but I doubt RR will do that.
Nice synopsis of the complex feelings I think most M fans have about this program right now. We so badly want a scapegoat for the obvious shortcomings we see every week, yet it's impossible to confidently and correctly identify it at the current time. Just incredibly frustrating.
These next 3 weeks are so important to the direction of the program.
I certainly recall the infamous 3rd and 1 that got stuffed in the first half, but I actually really dont remeber any other third and shorts that were stopped. Am I forgetting one?
I remember a third and medium that Denard was stopped on a QB draw in the 3rd Qtr. but I think everything else was a TO until throw every down time.
It really is excruciating to see how close we were to 30+ points on Saturday. There were a lot of good things to take away. Just a little more accuracy and a little more Shaw and Hopkins will go a long way
I for one am excited to see how they performa against Iowa. If we can neutralize their front four a little bit, I thnk we'll have success.
The negative impact is definitely compounded in that we can't respond to the undoubtedly trumped up charges being thrown out by these other schools during this period.
I'm sure some of these kids think Michigan is headed for the Death Penalty based on what other coaches are insinuating.
Certainly a bummer though not unexpected in the end. A little surprised however that we were elimnated so soon considering he did make the recent trip to campus.
Read on the Mlive forum that on WTKA this morning, Sam said he no longer had the 'gut feeling' for Grimes/Murphy. Anybody else here this?
If that's true and Witty not coming, adding a corner would make sense.
Agreed. It sucks to see situations like this occur, but the door is opened for these to occur when you go 8-16 over the last two years.
It's a lot harder to steer kids away from a program coming off a championship than one coming off a couple of very poor seasons.
I would agree. The only hesitation I would have is I thought I recall hearing that he was pretty hard on Michigan, doing a lot of negative recruiting.
I seem to remember hearing that he said he only went to Michigan because he didn't get an offer from ND or something to that effect. Obviously, you've got to have some answer to recruits asking why you chose the school you're competing against but it seemed like he was going a little out of his way to slam Michigan.
I agree as this is my biggest concern as well. I feel like this team has given back almost all of the progress the program made last year.
It would be one thing if these losses were close, competitive games that just didn't go our way. Instead, they have looked downright awful at times in 3 of the 4 losses. This team just looks lost right now. The system is clearly not working right now.
Hopefully they can turn it around and get things going in the right direction again.
This is just painful...horrible defense and defensive rebounding, missed layups, missed free throws.
Looks like a 6-loss non-conference season at best at this point.
A little surprised they're interviewing Harbaugh. It seems he may be a little too much of a loose cannon for them, at least what I've heard from ND friends.
In the short term, probably rather see them take Harbaugh if its' one of those 2.
Clausen did have a very good year, often times in spite of his O-line. The games I watched, they really struggled against speed rushers and despite their size, seemed to really struggle establishing any consistent run game.
That oversigning rule really makes this a double whammy. No one will know if Smith would have ever developed into a contributing LB but the signing rule just delays a replacement for a year.
It would be nice if we could have brought in a LB in his place this year, redshirt next year and be a RS FR in 2011 in possible position to contribute since Ezeh and Mouton will be gone. Instead that spot will be a true FR thanks to this rule. Thanks Big Ten!
This one is really confusing. It just doesn't seem to make much sense considering how many other prospects are expected to commit or are showing high interest.
It will be interesting to see what all shakes out. I smell a decommit or two coming.
I think they really need to play Simms and Gibson together more. The inside defense is horrible and it would help with rebounding and more inside presence.
I still don't get Simms being benched for so long in the 2nd half.
I think this coming year will tell us a lot. There a number of guys that need to add a good amount of bulk/strength (ie. Roh, Tate, Denard, Lewan, etc.). I will be very interested to see how a lot of these guys look next fall.
I think their stamina/conditioning was adequate this year, I think the lack of size/strength were much bigger factors in the second halves of games.
Man, I sure hope we add that triple option play w/ the tight end shovel option next year. It is such a tough play to defend. Florida has already scored 2 TD's on it - 1 on the shovel, 1 on the QB keep.
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We lack speed and elusiveness at the skill positions for what’s needed in a true spread system. Some of that is made up for in size, and I agree the arm punts need to be more prevalent, which have been the only big play source thus far.
DPJ is probably the only rotation player that has above average speed for their position and he’s just now getting back to being healthy. Everybody wants to rag on Shea or blame play calling (some of which is deserved) but from my vantage point we don’t have guys getting much separation. The windows are almost always tight and teams don’t have to fear a back busting lose for a big run either if they miss a run fit.
Think about the first play against Wisky where Bell is caught inside the 10. Should have been a TD and we all know what happened next. None of OSU receivers are getting caught on that play. From what I saw of Iowa’s top guys I don’t think are either. You score there, who knows where that game goes.
Speed has not been a big priority in offensive skill recruiting for this staff and I think it‘s a major factor on the field. Shrinks the margin of error greatly.
Was Black injured during the game? Had 1 catch early then I dont remember seeing him at all in the second half. Would explain the fade to McCurry
Everybody wants to keep talking about all the offensive talent not being utilized but I just don't see it. Throw out recruiting rankings and go by the eye test on the field.
I watch a lot of college football and in my view we're below average at running back, receiver and quarterback. Tight ends are above average. Hard to identify the level of raw talent on the line but it does not seem all that high but obviously experience and cohesion are just as important there as physical talent.
I don't care how many 4 stars are out there, I see a lack of speed and athleticism at the skill positions outside of DPJ and that goes way beyond youth. Our backs get what's blocked and little more, the receivers struggle to get open, even on fly routes which should be an opportunity to showcase athleticism against inferior talent and we all know the QB issue. Yes, we're obviously young - so is Michigan State.
I'm just as frustrated as everybody on the offensive game plans but I think the bigger issue is talent. There is just no explosiveness which means you've got to move down the field in 5-8 yard chunks, which means more plays and more chances for errors and turnovers, requiring perfect execution. That's hard enough to do in the NFL when it's your full time job, much harder for college players.
Everybody compares us to Stanford. Comparable, conservative offenses, but look at the difference in talent at running back the last few years. When our offense executes a run play perfectly we get maybe 15 yards. When they do, McCaffrey or Love take it to the house, whether's it's from 20 yards or 80. They have had QB issues as well which is why they've dropped a couple games but raw talent helps cover up a lot of issues.
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To me the visit timing seems to be a good sign for MSU. it seems like when you schedule a visit after a possible commit date, that school is your likely choice.
Just curious, don't you already have to have had tix to have an account on mgoblue.com?
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<br>Pretty sure I don't have one set up to check.
An alum who finally decided to try to get off the wait list w/ a $2500 donation. First time making a donation as we had been content buying season tix from someone else.
FIngers crossed I guess. Hope it's enough. Hopefully it's in the mail in the next few days!
There are definitely worse guys out there.
I did love the Teddy KGB reference though!
At this point I think I'll be happy if we can keep the 12 commits we have, let alone add any others.
Seems to be a lot of noise about Fisher, Countess, Jones, Goudis, Posada, and even Beyer.
Should be an interesting 2-1/2 weeks.
I agree there needs to be some upward movement in the assistant salary pool. Top talent costs money. UM upped the anty for a head coach with RR but kept the assistants' pay at Carr levels. The "We're Michigan" mantra only goes so far and has lost some clout after these last few leaner years.
Wasn't there a rumor back in 2007 that lack of money available for assistants may have factored in the Less Miles fiasco?
There are reasonable arguments on both sides. There's obviously a lot of youth and inexperience and it's easy to play 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' with all the drops, fumbles, poor special teams play and the like.
You can make a logical argument that a lot of that will get better with experience. You can also make a logical argument that athough they'll be more experienced, there are still precious few difference maker caliber athletes on defense, and even offense for that matter, outside of Denard. Rght now I see a small, slow defense. Some of the size will take care of itself with age and time in the weight room, but the speed will only improve incrementally with the current personnel.
I think RR needs to tweak his philosophies in recruiting a bit otherwise the struggles against bigger, more physical teams will continue. I even wonder if some of the problems with injuries this year are a byproduct of smaller bodies continually running into larger bodies.
They talked about it a littlle bit during the Stanford-Oregon State last night. The announcers said Harbaugh refused to talk about the 'Michigan Cloud' as they called it, saying 'What cloud?' and that he's in a 'football bunker' just focused on winning football games etc.
I don't see much difference in size between WV's D-line and ours. The problem is transistioning that to the B10 or any other real BCS conference. To run it effectively you will need that 300+ lb NT. I think WV's current D would also struggle against B10 power run teams.
However, you put a Terrence Cody sized NT and a couple 290 lbs DT/DE's and I think it could absolutely work in the B10 w/ the right coordinator.
The way M runs the 3-3-5 and the way WV runs it bear almost no resemblance to each other. WV is much more aggressive with their deployments, more blitzing, more slants, etc. They also seem to be much more aggresive going after strips (or Pitt just can't hang onto the ball).
Kind of getting sick of the 'scheme is overated' mantra RR is selling with regards to the defense. I think it's true of sound defensive schemes like 3-4/4-3, or even a true attacking 3-3-5 w/ linebackers playing at proper depth.
However, I don't think that applies to the bastardized 'thing' that we've thrown out there most of the year, particularly against PSU and Wisky. Obviously, youth and physical development are hindering things but the defensive gameplan is doing a poor job of getting guys in position to make plays.
Very good breakdown. Unfortunately, it confirmed my thoughts that the offense has not been very effective against quality teams when the game was truly in doubt.
I think there are reasons for the variability (lack of experienced QB, lack of a dynamic RB, feeling pressure to score every drive because of the D, etc.) but it is a big concern.
On another, note Wisconsin's PPD really looks impressive compared to the rest of the league. Curious how that would stack up nationally.
I think most of the predictability in the second half had to do with shaky QB play and the wind/rain.
I also think Purduce's D definitely deseres some credit as well. They had a very good day against our O-Line. I also just looked up that they only gave up 303 yards to Wisconsin last week - in the sunshine vs. the 395 we had in the slop. Obviously yards aren't everything but it shows they're D isn't full of a bunch of stiffs either.
I agree. He wasn't missing the wide open hitches early in the year. You've got to believe that amoeba-shaped brace on his shoulder can't be helping things.
Agree with a lot of what you said, especially about the freshman. While you expect mistakes, you expect some plays to be made. We're not seeing that. I think the reason is some questionable coaching and a lack of talent.
Experience is great, but raw talent adn good coaching have to be in place for that experience to be maximized. RR keeps talking about how they need to get faster and more athletic on D. Well, the areas he's mentioning, most of these players are his recruits. The recruiting on defense has to get better and they have to bring in some kids that have the ability to contribute right away.
Though the small sample size caveats apply, still interesting. I definitely feel the offense is not quite as good as the numbers indicate. You could have also used data from the second half of the IU game where we had numerous chances to go up 2 scores but kept going 3 and out instead.
I think some of that is certainly attributed to D-Rob's health. From my view, his shoulder must be causing some issues because he is just missing way too many easy throws right now that he was making with ease earlier in the year. It's really unfortunate that we have to keep running him 25+ times a game, making it very difficult for the shoulder to heal. And from what I heard RR say in a pre-game bit before PSU, it sounds like they've had to curtail his throwing in practice too.
It would be so nice if we could get more production out of the RB position. DR's overuse in the run game is now having an adverse effect in the pass game. Hopefully, that sharpness with return yet this year but I'm not sure it possibly can given then number of hits his shoulder takes.
Exactly. Makes no sense.
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Well put on the Dantonio issue. Wojo raises a good point about the 'growing arrogance' he seems to be portraying.
In many ways I could care less if Rucker ever plays for them again, I'm just so damn sick of hearing how honorable and full of discpline he is. It's amazing all the leeway he has gotten on this considering he's basically been a 0.500 coach before this season. Hopefully the fawning will be somewhat muted going forward.
Remember that Tate was making most of those plays against a defense protecting a 2 or 3 TD lead. Don't get me wrong, he played great but he also threw a bad pick in the 3rd Qtr on a very ill advised throw.
The struggles the last couple of games have most certainly shortened the leash for Denard but I think the ceiling for the offense is still higher with him in the game IF he can get back to the way he played earlier in the year. Obviously the competition is much better but ne needs to be more accurate on the easy throws that he has been the last two weeks. He seems so much more hesitant and is just not trusting what he sees. I know he was 13-18 but many of his short throws were inaccurate either low or high that killed the play, even though complete.
I wouldn't mind seeing them both play but I doubt RR will do that.
Nice synopsis of the complex feelings I think most M fans have about this program right now. We so badly want a scapegoat for the obvious shortcomings we see every week, yet it's impossible to confidently and correctly identify it at the current time. Just incredibly frustrating.
These next 3 weeks are so important to the direction of the program.
I certainly recall the infamous 3rd and 1 that got stuffed in the first half, but I actually really dont remeber any other third and shorts that were stopped. Am I forgetting one?
I remember a third and medium that Denard was stopped on a QB draw in the 3rd Qtr. but I think everything else was a TO until throw every down time.
It really is excruciating to see how close we were to 30+ points on Saturday. There were a lot of good things to take away. Just a little more accuracy and a little more Shaw and Hopkins will go a long way
I for one am excited to see how they performa against Iowa. If we can neutralize their front four a little bit, I thnk we'll have success.
Just curious, what did Herbie say about his sideline demeanor? Must have missed that.
He might have a small point if he was talking about the defensive stats being misleading, but there was nothing misleading about the offensive stats.
It's not like the majority of the yards were accumulated on a couple of plays or something. Especially since it was on only 8 real possessions.
Wow, what a saga! Very interesting stuff. This scenario sure sounds plausible to me, though it's just a bad situation all around for all involved.
I will be so happy when we get back to winning games and don't have to deal withone of these types of stories about every other month.
Here's to forethcoming official news on Big Ten expansion pushing this to the back of our collective conscience.