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you say that

but number one on the ultimate rankingsof fandom was "trying to be the first to post news on the mgoboard".

would you say

the frustration is driving them to tears?

/shows self out

Thanks for mentioning it

The SBN/Yahoo relationship is a weird one, so it's nice to get the right link in there so people actually check out the stuff we do.

I think he meant take on

I think he meant take on blocks from tight ends and fullbacks instead of guards, because youre right that Ross has struggled at times when not properly covered by DTs up front.

He could

But after living with this AD for the last few years, what do you think is more likely: MSUDersh being mistaken or the AD actually doing something like this to fans that aren't in a position to have a coaching seat named after them following a massive donation?

MSUDersh is good people

Of all the MSU guys I interact with over at SB Nation, he is one of the more reasonable and honest when it comes to Michigan, and he is a very well known commodity.  This isn't some random poster coming out of the woodwork to trash the Michigan AD.  I would be shocked if he was lying or even exaggerating things.

They can still be good calls

MSU's defense is really good.  Sometimes a defense just makes a great play or beats you with RPS type calls. You could still have made a solid play call and just gotten beat by a great defense.

The thing is I wasn't trying to really establish blame here.  Just look at some of the things that went wrong and better understand them.

Assigning blame on the internet is a worthless endevour.  All we can hope to do is understand things better.

It isn't a defense of Borges

as much as a deeper look at some of the things that happened and why some of these plays didn't work as well as what the defense was doing.  I still think he has a hand in some of these plays not working, but there are enough instances of players just failing to execute relatively simple things (Funchess whiffing the downblock on an IV) that you can't put it all on Borges.

I'm not really a big fan of Borges and his play calling style or offensive philosophy (spread 4 life).  However, I think the offensive line issues in this one were a bigger issue than anything he did or didn't do, so I wanted to look a little closer at some of those and hopefully get people like SC to jump in with more nuanced explanations of what I was seeing (or what I missed).

Lately it seems like a lot of people just want to jump on board the "fire Borges" bandwagon.  I'm not quite ready to do so (nor do I think it matters because he isn't getting fired this year anyway). I just want to get a better idea why an offensive performance like this happens.

I did that whole Q&A with LTP and missed the "Ray" thing

/facepalm

The argument isn't that the punishment is harsher

It is that there is no punishment at all when schools renege on NLIs.  Schools are free to do as they please, to accept a player and honor their promise to offer him a scholarship months after he signed a contract that he and most other players think guarantee them something.  It is a completely one-sided agreement that strips a mass of individuals of rights while providing no guarantee in return.

Sure, 99% of NLI's end in a player getting a scholarship, but it's that 1% that is extremely troubling.  FIxing the system and giving recruits more rights and benefits isn't going  to have an adverse effect on the 99%, but it will be a more fair system to the 1%.

Also, the solution isn't to allow any player out of their NLI.  It is to make it so if a school accepts a player's NLI then that school will honor its end of the bargain and offer a scholarship.  That won't help players like Vanderdoes, but it will at least make the NLI more of a two-way agreement and less a fancy way to strip potential college athletes of a lot of rights while not guaranteeing anything in return.

Well, first of all Denard

Well, first of all Denard only played one game at not-QB before OSU (vs. a pretty terrible Iowa team) and he had over a month to prepare for South Carolina.

But more to the point, you cite how little that mattered in the first half without realizing that maybe Meyer and co. made a few adjustments after halftime after it became obvious that Michigan was using Robinson in a very limited role.

Now, you can make the argument that UM did this because Borges is stupid or bad at his job, but isn't it within the realm of possibility that a guy who was injured and only had a couple weeks of practice at RB might be limited in what he could run as part of the offense?  I'm not saying that Borges is above reproach, but you have to take the entire situation into account, and Robinson sliding into RB on short notice isn't an ideal one given the complexities of football.

Thanks guys

It was a lot of work, and the second longest thing I've ever written (the longest was an undergrad research paper for Phil 402) but I had a blast writing it and just hope I did Trey's career justice.

But yeah, tl;dr and all that.

As a guy who runs an SBN site (Maize n Brew)

I'm going to say no, and that this is more trolling from an otherwise pretty solid writer (Luke Zimmermann used to write at 11W as well as moonlighting at EDSBS).

I haven't followed much of Land Grant Holy-Land in the past few months, but I know the site has really upped its traffic, and I think part of that is appealing to the dumbest parts of the fan base which earns you a little more street cred in the fight for traffic.  However, some of the other things I have read there have been pretty solid and well written/reasoned.

Still, the level of "not getting it" in that comparision Luke did was off the charts.

In all fairness it wasn't RCMB

It was on The Only Colors.  They have a pretty serious discussion about it.

http://www.theonlycolors.com/2012/10/20/3531852/michigan-12-michigan-state-10-kneejerk-reactions

I'm as surprised as you are.

I get your response, but you

I get your response, but you missed the part later on in the response where I said, "Going forward I think there is a regression on defense that comes from the fact that those turnover numbers can't possibly stay that high".

Furthermore, my argument was based more on the fact that better coached teams are naturally going to set themselves up for more breaks by being closer to the ball and in better position to make a play on it.  Hell, Mattison has said the same thing countless times and while it doesn't always lead to better turnover numbers (these things are to a large extent random) I really have no idea how someone can say that being a better defense doesn't have at least some effect on forced turnovers.  This doesn't mean that teams will constantly stay at the top of the rankings -- I'm not discounting the fine statistical work of guys like the Mathlete, Brian, Bill Connelly and others -- but it means that for the most part the best defenses aren't going to turn into low turnover-forcing-outfits because the iron law of statistics say so.  They call them "forced" turnovers for a reason.

I know there are big statistical arguments about luck and regression to the mean, but if you crawl too far inside statistics you risk forgetting that stats are just another tool, albeit an important one, when it comes to looking critically at football.  I fully expect Michigan's turnover numbers to regress in 2012, but I also think a big part of the reason Michigan was so good at forcing turnovers in 2011 was how much better the defense was at being in the right place to make a play.

I think that I, and the rest of the great writers over at Maize n Brew, do a pretty good job, and we have been working hard since I took over the site in February.  Check us out sometime.  I don't think you'll be disappointed.

I made the MGoBoard

I guess I can check that off my bucket list.  Thanks for the re-post on this.

I could have went on at length about all the great stuff here at MGo, but I already wrote a ton and figured I should probably try to keep it as short as possible.  Needless to say, I am a huge fan of this site, and I really hope that the stuff we do over at Maize n Brew will be a great compliment to the work Brian and the rest of the crew do here.

(Shameless plug alert)

So please, stop by Maize n Brew and let us know what you think.  We have some great writers  you know from this site like DGDestroys, Maize in Spartyland, as well as Fouad from Holdin' the Rope, both Jeff Contizano and Alex Cook formerly of The Wolverine Blog, and Dave Ryan of SBN Detroit and Searching for Billy Edelin.

/shameless plug finished

Your answer here:

Big Ten Tournament Tiebreakers

I would rather get him to

I would rather get him to commit when he feels comfortable than having him rush the process and not be 100% with his decision because he feels like he has to do it before he loses a spot.  It may make us feel better to look at Rivals and see his name under "verbal", but this is a big decision for an 18-year-old kid and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

Treadwell is a #1 priority recruit.  There will be space for him whenever he decides.

Yeah, I know

fabricating an important detail of a story days ahead of time is way worse than being the second in line in misreporting a piece of news that spiraled horribly out of control after a hoax.  Wait, that's not what you meant.

Not saying Jacobi didn't screw up --- you've got to get confirmation for these things --- but what Mitch Albom did was an outright lie, not a stupid mistake.

Jacobi is good people.  He deserves --- and will get --- another shot.

"Michigan never left because

"Michigan never left because Michigan is still (and has been) one of the greatest universities in the world - academically and financially. The amount of scholarship and advancement in multiple areas we produce is rivalled only by other top tier universities - even in the Ivy League. The integrity of the university is equal to best. Though we are a public university, we are consistently labeled a top school. Bang for your buck, we may not be rivaled by anyone. A university is worth much more than football team. And in every area other than football, we never left."

And herein lies the problem.  Eddie George was talking about football.  You are talking about the entire Michigan experience.  I agree that Michigan is still Michigan and would be even if we tore the Big House down tomorrow and never fielded a football team again.  The University is one of the greatest in the world which is why we all love it and some of us chose to study there.

 

But, 3-9, 5-7, and to a certain extent 7-6 aren't sufficient to say that Michigan was still a nationally relevant football program.  We were nationally relevant from 08-10 because the entire country loves schadenfreude and it was happy hour for it in Ann Arbor for three years.  Hell, Sparty is still drunk on it.

I love Hoke for saying "Michigan never left," because it unites the fanbase and it taps into everything we love about the school and the idea of being a Michigan fan.  But Hoke just got here.  He wasn't around for the worst of it.

All this talk of Michigan being gone, back, or never having left in the first place is getting a bit tiresome.  It all feels like hubris to me.  I'm more concerned about where Michigan is going.  I think we can all agree on an answer to that.

I wish I could neg this

I wish I could neg this twice.

I was referring to,

I was referring to, "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead."  Maybe that only works if Rodriguez gets fired.

"It's _____day, and Rich Rodriguez is still not our coach."

Can this be a daily thing

a la Weekend Update?

Does this mean we will

Does this mean we will regress to 8 wins in 2012?

Exhibit A...

of why newspapers are dying.  They have guys like this writing for them.  Seriously, he tries to incorporate the classic Dantonio, "pride comes before the fall" line?  Lame, man.  Just lame.

This makes me glad I get all my college football news from mgoblog, SBNation, and Dr. Saturday.

TCU

No sign of TCU anywhere on that list.  What does a D-coordinator have to do to get noticed?

Some SBN sites are better

Some SBN sites are better than others.  I've always found BSD to be a little weak, but Black Heart Gold Pants (Iowa) is outstanding, EDSBS is a must read, Burnt Orange Nation (Texas) is also great, and The Only Colors (MSU) is one of the best sources I've found for information on Michigan State.

Also, I might be biased as I contribute there, but Maize n Brew is solid as well.

Can I get a.....

BANHAMMER?

Can I get a.....

BANHAMMER?

I wish I could up vote this

I wish I could up vote this thread more than once.  In a sea of crap, it is nice to read something that acknowledges that this team has a whole lot more invested in the games than we the fans do.

Although I suppose I am taking up valuable room on the board that could be used to call for Rodriguez's immediate termination and bashing Taylor Lewan for not keeping his emotions in check.

Can we get a total board lock

Can we get a total board lock down until Monday?  Please?  I don't care how many ways people can find to say "FIRE RICHROD, HE SUXXXXX!1!1!!!1".

Oh, f***ing great, a whole

Oh, f***ing great, a whole two weeks of this shit.  Awesome.

I'm sure there is plenty of room on Michigan State's bandwagon, better hop on that one before it's too late.

My point was that his high

My point was that his high recruiting ranking was based on his size.  Had his actual size been reported he might have been lower rated.  6'6 260 is going to get a better ranking than 6'4 230.  As fans we base our expectations on star rankings most of the time and can be misled into thinking guys like Lalota have higher ceilings and more potential for immediate impact than they do.

You mention the development

You mention the development of talented recruits then you cite Warren (Jr who left for the draft, not undeveloped underclassman) and Cissoko (who turned criminal, not really much the coaching staff can do there).  One was pretty fully developed and just bailed for the NFL (hah) and the other didn't give the staff a chance to turn him into anything.

You might have a point with the other three, but I think the coaching staff can only do so much.  Turner was on campus for all of a year before he left the team on his own accord, same with LaLota.  While they had all the hype in the world, they also had some pretty big physical disadvantages (Turner - "outgrew" corner; LaLota - showed up something like 2 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter than expected).  Either way I don't think these two qualify for your "failure to develop" concerns.  You need more than a year in the program to develop into a solid player, and even highly regarded recruits flame out.  It is just more obvious when it happens at Michigan because of the utter lack of depth behind them.  

While Campbell hasn't broken on to the field yet, he is also playing behind the hands down best player on our defense.  Besides, you can't really judge a recruit until his 3rd year in the program.  Give big Willy time.

How about the development of Roh, who has put on weight and become a good pass rusher (although using him as a LB is a regrettably bad decision).  Thomas Gordon is another positive story for this staff.  Wasn't he the lowest rated recruit in the '09 class and now he is starting and playing solid as the Spur.  And if you want to talk about someone maximizing their talent look no farther than Kovacs.  The kid who everyone considers too small and slow is in the right place at the right time and making plays all over the field.  Could he succeed without decent coaches to develop the mental aspects of the game?

The real failure to develop has been at the linebacker position, and even there we are seeing a turnaround year from Mouton.  If Demens can step in for Ezeh without a drop off we will have starters coming back at every position except DE and WLB.

I agree that development of our players could be a concern, but I don't think we will have credible evidence to support either side for another year or two at least.

It isn't an achievement, but

It isn't an achievement, but simply the state of a young and inexperienced defense.  I am by no means happy about it, but I understand it is a fact of life.  When you have something like ten freshmen and sophomores getting playing time you can't expect a 2006 like effort on defense.  

The fact is, 34 points should be something this offense can overcome.  Today there were too many mistakes, and we lost.  State played a better game and deserved the win.  This team is a work in progress, and we knew it all along.  5-1 is still overwhelmingly positive this far into the season.

If you just keep in the back

If you just keep in the back of your head that 7-5/8-4 is the ultimate goal, you'll be fine.  I HATE losing to MSU, but they played well and we made too many mistakes on offense.  Everyone here knows this team cant afford a -3 TO number.  Luckily they were all largely unforced errors by a sophomore QB in his first big rivalry game.  Add in all the freshman and sophomores that played significant time on defense and I won't allow myself to get too worried.

If we are going to panic about anything, panic about Illinois not being an automatic win anymore.

A bad defense held a good MSU

A bad defense held a good MSU offense to 34 points.  Take away three unforced turnovers by our true sophomore quarterback and we have a chance at the win.  

5-1 man, 5-1.  Lets all take a deep breath.

If you told me we would hold

If you told me we would hold MSU to 34 points before the game, I would have guaranteed a win. The offense failed to execute and everyone knows we can't afford mistakes.

5-1.  Everybody cool down.

I think he is referring to

I think he is referring to what the locals down there call "ohio medium."

Somebody queue up Yakety Sax

Somebody queue up Yakety Sax for the EMU/OSU game.  It's going to get ugly.

My answer

I threw up a rather lengthy post in response to this at my blog, Dreaded Judgement.  Both this post by Zone Left and the "State of the Schwatev" post by Brian got me thinking deeply about the subject that is very close to my heart but really not thought about much.

It is a little long for a response here, or else I would just copy and past it (it is also a good chance to pimp my blog out a little bit more).  Hope everyone enjoys it.

Another Michigan Football Blog

Thanks for the shout out for the new blog Brian.  I appreciate it.

Valentti and Foster are all

Valentti and Foster are all class.  Ripping a 19 year old kid for being disappointed that he didn't get a chance to play after starting the last two months of 2009 with an injured shoulder and playing through a seven game Big Ten losing streak.  Give him hell guys.

I'll admit the way he acted was immature, but I am willing to cut Tate some slack for his questionable behavior.

Eh, wake me up when the polls

Eh, wake me up when the polls actually have a concrete basis for ranking the teams.  One win against an unknown UConn team shouldn't be enough to justify votes.  Nobody really knows much of anything about this season after one game.  Polls need to start after week three.

To think I used to depend on

To think I used to depend on ESPN for everything.  I remember reading the recruiting reports before the 2007 season, and the Scouts Inc preview and considering myself informed.  I was fortunate to find MGoBlog after that season (referred from WLA).

I once was blind, but now I can see.

Schlabach's upset of the week

Schlabach's upset of the week  is a UConn team that is widely favored and only getting points because they are the away team?  Way to go out on a limb.  He must have had a hard time picking between Florida and Texas for his lock of the week.

If Edsall is worth his

If Edsall is worth his salary, it won't matter who we name as the QB or if we don't name anyone, he is still going to have his team prepared for all three options.  It's not like naming Denard then rolling Tate out in the second quarter is going to cause mass panic on the UConn sidelines.

Rodriguez isn't an evil genius.  Just a genius.

Douglass got screened

The biggest problem is that Douglass didn't set himself up to deal with the screen in the backcourt. He has to see it coming and put himself in a position to get around it.

If he gets past the screener he meets Turner before half court and forces him to crossover, which bleeds time off the clock and forces a tougher shot from farther away. If you watch the replay, he doesn't have a hand in Turner's face because he is just catching up to him when the shot is going up. Thats Douglass' fault for not seeing the screen. Any basketball player worth his mettle can put a half court shot very close with a straight on approach and a few dribbles. The defense needs to be there on the floor to pressure the approach and make the shot tougher.

The problem isn't the defense as it was set up, it is the way the defense was executed. If Stu gets past the screen and to Turner before half court, we are on our way to the next round of the B10 tourney, not nursing ourselves back from another epic dong punch.