frank beamer #1
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|5 days 4 hours ago||I can verify his HS # was 3||
He definately wore #3 as both a QB & LB in HS. Although they ran more of a spread than Manball at WO.
Wild to think he was one player that was recruited & offered by Rodridguez, Coached by Hoke and will finish his career under Harbaugh. If anyone will be a great interview for JUB's next book I would think it would be Des.
|3 weeks 5 days ago||Ha Ha!!||
My quick response for what killed the wishbone was going to be "The U".
No doubt that defensive speed(read emptying the inner city Ghetto ala Schmalenberger or whatever his name was) and getting these kids into colleger regardless of any admissions standards.
However, if you took the talent like can be found in the big programs and COULD get them to commit to a system like the WB, I think it would still win. The advantage D lineman had for a decade or so has been pretty well matched by athletes on the O-line(Gronk etc.) Spread O-lineman like Oregon has would be perfect, so would spread QB's.
I think early exit is the biggest single contributer to the demise, include in that The "U" type players that just are not gonna put off the $$$ coming to them in order to win multiple NC's for your school.
|3 weeks 5 days ago||Nothing stopped it||
Other than perhaps fashion, minor rules changes, early exits and the NFL.
Just as Auburn won a national championship running basically the double wing as perfected 70+ years ago. A team could win with the wishbone today provided a couple of things:
1. No diva's only committed to themselves and their NFL aspirations. This is IMHO what actually did the most to kill the wishbone and other schematic offenses. NFL loves them some blazing speed and deep passes along with 75+ point totals.
2. A coach that can truely coach it, believe it or not these are becoming fewer and fewer. To run these offenses you have to be a master at setting up a D and picking up the very most subtle wrinkles they give you to exploit.
3. You have to be wiling to purposly aviod early exit players. Systems like this RELY on seniors & juniors that are patient enough to MASTER the execution & the systems that make this type of offense work. A frosh or soph should almost never play unless its at a RB position due to exceptional physical tools(Billy Sims, Marcus Dupree, Earl Campbell).
These offenses (Wishbone, Wing T, Double wing etc.) are the anti spread. Instead of "We're going to get our best athletes in space" these systems are "We're going to create our space for any athletes". They're based on 4yds on EVERY PLAY! Patience, patience and more patience. When the D stops you from getting that 4yd gain, thats when they're really screwed because they've tipped thier hand. Show them the same formation, slightly different blocking assignments and you go to the HOUSE on them.
A talented NCAA or NFL team that could get their talent to commit to a system like any of these would win and win big even today. Of course that would never happen because you would not have anybody on the team that could demand top salary cap $$. They would all be parts in a big, perfectly tuned engine instead of a conglomeration of superstars and super egos.
|5 weeks 4 days ago||Without quality trench warriors||
Denard is a bugstain on the field. I love me some Denard but I'll give you 10 Denards if you'll give me 10 Jake Long's and I know which team I'd rather build from.
Dime a dozen
|5 weeks 5 days ago||And more rare||
They just dont make near as many 6'7" guys who can carry around 300lbs and still move with athleticism. For every one of this type of guy that are probably 400 or more sub 6' guys who can run a sub 4.7 sec 40.
I've been saying this for years, recruit with priorities based on rarity. You could literally never offer a WR or RB, S or CB until your class was set on big boys and my feeling is it would not hurt your program a bit. If you have serious quality on both sides of the trench you could have nothing but low 3 stars filling out the rest and still win big. Switch it up and you wont post a .500 record EVER IMO.
|6 weeks 2 hours ago||IS better?? None.||
However they've wallowed under a middling MAC coach who didn't develop them whatsoever so it would not be fair to any of them to judge them against the likes of those 3 who've been coached by the guy who made Tebow into a Heisman.
That said, I'll take the potential upside for Morris, Rudduck and Malzone over all 3 of Urban's guys in the long term. In other words, IMO Miller, Barrett and Jones have all reached or even exceeded their ceiling already. Not that its a bad thing, they have done pretty great things all of them but do I see any of them coming close to the trajectory of Andrew Luck?? not even close.
I'll take Conner Cook's long term career over any of those 3.
|12 weeks 5 days ago||Tiara||
In that size range I'd put a Tiara up with the Bertram & Hatt's of the class. Excellent boats that should be judged on condition & hours vs. year of build. Good in great lakes conditions(built in Holland MI.) and nicely adorned without being "cheesy".
|13 weeks 3 days ago||Love the magicians footage||
I would love to see some of that crazy single wing stuff executed by todays top athletes. Can you imagine someone like Denard running that?
I know everyone will explain how football has "passed that by" and how defenses aren't so easy to fool anymore but I kinda take exception to this idea.
My local HS team is a dedicated Power T football team that has won 3 state championships in 2 different divisions and has repeatedly beaten higher class teams using the tried and true misdirection & constraint stuff exclusively. They run it with incredible discipline using somewhat lesser athletes(decent size but no real speed) and it just wreaks havoc on defenses.
I think its more about the mentalitly of athletes and a general unwillingness to dedicate yourself to the greater cause at the expense of the "self". On the part of coaches as well as players.
|14 weeks 3 days ago||How dare you try and||
How dare you try and represent yourself as a member of that elite club that their mommies and daddies forked out 10's of thousands of $$ to get them into AND that they themselves worked SOOO fucking HARD, I mean NIGHT and fucking DAY, laboring intesively, straining their already gifted minds to their very LIMIT so as to experience the level of personal growth and expanded intellect that can ONLY come from being in the presence of other hyper intellegent over achievers just like themselves.
You sir are just a notch above a BUM!! and I being of high mind and far superior intellect, would be able to tell within 10 seconds in a job interview that YOU are indeed an IMPOSTER to the REAL DEAL graduates of the intellectual MECCA that is U of M (Ann Arbor).
BTW, do you know how to pick out the ___________(fill in blank with Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIchigan, Hope, K-college etc) grad at a party??
Dont worry its easy, just stand there and wait for the arrogant prick to come over and tell you.
A students WORK FOR D students and dropouts most of the time.(except in field of medicine & science) because while you were spending daddy's money at univerisity he/she was building a business with hustle, intelligence(not of the Phd kind) and sweat.
|14 weeks 3 days ago||You blew up your arguement as||
You blew up your arguement as soon as you equated Hope, Hillsdale and Albian to UM @ AA. Hope will take anyone wiht 34k/yr and dutch parents. Anyone who's mom or dad works at Hope for 5yrs gets a free ride. Hope has prestige for ONE reason.. $$$$ it costs to go there. Same with Albian, Hilldale, K-College.
You, with every word, verify and justify what so many suspect. College, especially liberal arts at university, are nothing more than a rite of passage for the bourgeoise. Where how much $$ mommy & daddy are willing to toss into a hole where you might just learn how to beer bong & pack a bowl with folks from another state while having the time of your life on their dime renders you, the recipient of the proper sperm load, the beneficiary of this charity, as somehow superior to that CC kid who had to bust his ass to try and get ahead in this world.
Thanks for giving creedence to what most of us already suspected to be 90% true. Self rightous pricks deserve to spend 250k on your kids education and have them return home with an expensive piece of paper, a cocaine habit and a case of the clap.
|14 weeks 4 days ago||Unless you graduated as an MD, DDS or JD you're all in the same||
boat. Working for someone who never graduated from college and instead learned on the go, started his own company and now employs you OR working for his useless son in law, cousin, or nephew who beer bonged his way thru U of Whatever on mom & dads dime and returned to the corner office which was pre decorated for him.
Fact is folks, those degrees are becoming more and more obsolete as we speak. In 1970 the only way some kids were ever exposed to the "world" and its many varied ideas, styles and personalities was by leaving home and going to "university". Thats because in 1970 we all got 3 channels of TV, 5 radio stations and had to drive 10 miles to a public library to read about anything.
My 10yr old Googled how to make carbon nano tubes and spent 2 hours explaining the process to me and all the stuff they could do while I was trying to watch the tigers vs. yankees game. Does he completely understand it? Hell no, not even close. BUT.. he knows there are many innovative and advantagous uses for those things and that there is a process that produces them. He knows these things at 10 yrs old. Meanwhile that guy who graduated from U of M in 1973 with a BA in English? Well at least he didn't have to pay 50% of that avg.annual household income of the US per yr to get his and it was rarer then to have one at all.
The things universities had a monopoly on for 200 years are quickly becoming run of the mill(outside of very high level research stuff that 90+% of M students never have any involvement with).
Keep trying to justify the 27k a yr it cost you but thats going to get harder and harder to do as that 27 turns to 34, then 45, then 75. IMHO they maxed out their ROI at about 12-16k/yr and its been overvalued since then(for 90% of students). The future is going to be a crazy place folks and things that once had value are not going to continue to hold that same value forever. Ask the guy with the barn full of TV repair components.
|19 weeks 4 days ago||As long as they allow time to move the chains||
And for equal substitutions, its all within the rules. Keep in mind that its also within the rules to have a defensive player lay down with cramps on any or all plays as long as he sits out one play. Thats what a Saban, Bielema or any coach in a big game vs. a tempo team should do.
As far as NFL playing "manball" vs. CFB. Thats due to the placement of the hash marks as much as anything. In the NFL a defense can line up symmetrically and does not need to tip their hand in reponse to the offensive formation due to the long side of the field.
|19 weeks 5 days ago||Why just football?||
Skateboarding? Jumping on a trampoline? Bicycles? Swimming? Heading a soccer ball? Where does it end?How about the old uncles that used to pat the youngsters on the head? Is that why I'm not working for NASA now? Can I sue them?
In our desire to avoid the pitfalls of this thing called "living" we continue to eliminate the joys that make up actual life.
Get busy living or get busy dying a famous man(or woman?) once said. This statement just rings with me when I hear stuff like this.
For instance, we could very quickly drive motor vehicle deaths down by 80% with one simple thing. Wear a DOT cerfified helmet when you get in your car. Add a HANS device and they go down by 90% I'd bet. We accept some risks in life as worthy and eliminate others but where are we actually heading with this?
I have a really hard time making my son put his bike helmet on just to ride 1/2 a block up our subdivision road to his friends house. He looks at me like I'm treating him like a baby and I feel the same way. He is an athletic and coordinated 10yr old who knows how to ride his bike. When he rides a quad or motor bike, he wears a helmet because HE recognizes the potential for severe injury that comes with the increased speed and proximity to trees etc.
If he flies over his handlebars he'll get his hands down and manipulate his body to NOT land on his face/head. This is actually in inborn human instinct that shows up in toddlers(most of the time) unless said toddlers have worn helments because mommy was scared of head injuries and made them wear them as soon as they started walking. Those kids were handicapped from normal human develpment in that case were they not?
I guess what i'm saying is that some young kids should NOT play pop warner. They lack the coordination, common sense and reflexes to do so. In fact at 9yrs old I'd venture to say that 50% of kids should not play and its growing all the time as we continue to insulate them from consequence altogether. Pain is the greatest teacher, but we dont teach HOT with a blowtorch. They should learn it at the kitchen table with a baked potato. If you cool the baked potato to acceptable temps from day one what have you done?
|20 weeks 6 hours ago||Well said||
Take even a player like last nights featured Christian Laettner. Guy owns scoring records for NCAA tournament play and they'll never be broken simply because if you can score 20, you leave.
Its a case of "dont hate the game, hate the playa'z" They short their own development as an individual but I think even more costly they never learn to function as a unit which is how you really get points.
|21 weeks 3 days ago||Ha ha, with all the draft||
Ha ha, with all the draft projection stuff I've read over the past couple weeks my brain must have farted and made me think they already drafted. Point being the same, his name would have been on those lists in the 1st or 2nd round as a WR had then been his position from day one.
As far as Rockford or Macomb(could have used BBR or Livonia or any "big" program) they dont select their QB's thinking of who might go D1 at that position. They pick who can lead the team to the most wins. At those places Devin at WR would be a no brainer IMHO. There's probably 5 or 6 kids on their 65-90 man varsity roster that can play QB at the HS level "good enough" to get the wins, especially with a 6'5" wideout like DG. They would not put the 6'5" guy with speed at QB then put those others at WR even though they are 5'10" or 6 ft and lack leapiing ability and break away speed.
This is not a slam on DG. He was recruited for a spread to run system where I believe he would have torn it up big time. He was then force fitted into a pocket passing based scheme where he never developed the instincts, patience, vision and game understanding to excel.
Put it this way, Tom Brady became a QB because he couldn't and wouldn't be playing anywhere else on the field starting early in HS most likely. There were guys that were better than him at running with the ball, catching the ball and blocking.
Devin became a QB because he went to a HS with a total of 35 guys on the varsity roster and he was so far and away the best athlete on the team the coach just said I want the ball in this guys hands on every play. He likely had very few options at QB(Cameron Gordon was the 2nd option when Devin was a sophmore) and thus he was QB out of nessesicity. They even changed to a spread system at Inkster(not a very good one at that) because the had DG for those years.
Des was an example I used because despite lacking arm strength(big time) and only being so-so as a runner, he was the best option at QB at a school with 70 guys on the varsity roster and 2300 students. Why?? What did he have? Instincts, vision and an ablility to make the right decisions under pressure. Same tools that have made him a pretty damn good D1 middle linebacker despite not having D1 speed or size for that position. Would he have been a better QB than Devin and Michigan?? Only if he grew 3 inches and developed an arm(which never happens) otherwise no. But he had SOME of the tools just like Devin had SOME of the tools.
I'll change my statement. Devin had the tools to be a GREAT college QB in the RIGHT system but he lacks the tools to be even a good "traditional" QB in a pro style system.
|21 weeks 3 days ago||It has nothing to do with skin color||
Russel Wilson is the epitome of a QB, in fact having to overcome physical limitations(height, arm strength) and use his instincts and mental game awareness to flat out dominate at the highest level.
Jamius Winston will also(if he avoids the pitfalls of instant wealth and fame) likely dominate at the next level.
Instinct and vision know no color or race. One thing that might make it seem like we're always saying these things about minority QB's is the simple fact that all the white kids who lack these things never make it past a very low level of football before they are washed out while perhaps the black kids are talented enough to overcome these limitations in their game and stay at the QB position longer.
|21 weeks 3 days ago||Well I guess we'll see.||
Since the NFL has people who can and do seek out such hidden "talent".
One a similar note, did Denard also have this "talent" you speak of? He's a running back now in the NFL so to me that says all I need to know about his talent for the QB position.
Like I said, DG is a shining example of what a Michigan Man should aspire to be but it was obvious to me at a very early point in his career that he was not gifted with the tools to be a QB at any level above HS unless you're running a run to pass spread. Which makes total sense why RR recruited him. He would have been a STUD in an RR system where there's only 1 read but watching DG's eyes post snap you could clearly see that a QB in the "traditional" sense was never in his genes IMHO.
Magnus I watch a TON of HS football and it becomes very clear which kids are playing QB because they are the best athlete in their school system starting in 7th grade and which kids are playing QB because they possess a poise, sense of timing and a natural ability to slow the game down and make decisions under duress. DG was clearly the former and not the latter IMO. As are most HS QB's I see. Desmond Morgan was a QB in high school and other than a clear lack of the arm to do it at the next level, he was more suited to play QB in the "traditional sense" then Devin. I watched them both in consecutive weeks and the difference was immediately obvious. There were probably options at a big HS school like Des attended but he had the tools that made him the best able to play QB in the traditional sense. Devin was most likely shoehorned into playing QB at a young age because it was obvious from the 16 player bench Inkster had that there were not many options available. If Devin was at Macomb or Rockford or 25 other HS's in the state he would have been a WR from 7th grade on thru and very possibly been drafted a couple weeks ago in the 1st round.
Looking at it thru maize colored glasses because we love the kid(and 100% desevedly so) won't change the fact that other than in a run to pass spread he was never gonna be a stud QB.
|21 weeks 3 days ago||"clear talent at QB" made me||
"clear talent at QB" made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. Love me some DG. I think he was a great young man, a real team player and a shining example of exactly the kind of leadership our young players should model themselves after. That said, having watched several of his games when he was at Inkster H.S., he was anything but a "clear talent at QB". He was a chucker who was big and athletic enough to play QB in H.S. but had not developed(some of this is on coaching BTW) into anything resembling a clear talent at QB.
Having also watched Malzone in several of his HS games this is abundantly clear to anyone with functional eyes and a brain. DG finished a 5yr career at Michigan with less of an understanding and less instincts for playing the position that Alex brings with him on his first day.
Would/could DG have been a decent QB in a spread system? Probably in a RR style run to pass spread I'd say yes. Of course that really means you're a running back who can handle some throwing assignments. Not a clear talent at QB.
|22 weeks 8 hours ago||Perfect analogy IMHO||
No dis on "drift guy" but it is a perfect comparison. Smaller, lighter, quicker components vs. Stronger, heavier, torquier ones.
And..IMO, there's a lot of merit to saying that the "drift/tuner" guys of today have alot of advantages in their choice of equipment BUT, when facing a TRUE, finely tuned muscle car?? They are at an inherent disadvantage. Like good ol Dad used to say, when everything is put on the line, there's no substitute for cubic inches. Think Saban's best Bama or Carrols best USC or Miles best LSU vs. Oregon's best or RR's best WVU team. They are good enough to keep it interesting(most of the time) but ususally run out of "torque" in the end.
|23 weeks 5 days ago||Sadly.||
The world as I have witnessed it throughout my 30+ years of professional work, is becoming more and more a place where the Dave Brandon's run the show. Self promoting bullshitters who ARE mean to the wait staff keep finding their way to the top as they step on and alienate those with the real chops to do the job and make the difference.
Excellent work Brian. This was a fitting and deserved flogging of a man who prides himself on belittling and flogging others. I sincerely hope that writing this was as cathartic and healing a process for you as reading it was for me.
|32 weeks 1 day ago||Wayne benefitted from||
Wayne benefitted from expansion like nobody can imagine. His timing in terms of the expansion before true international expansion was perfect. Howe had the opposite. Great one was great no doubt but a 20-35 yr old Gordie would dominate the league Gretzky owned in the same way but with the addition of being physically much stronger.
|33 weeks 4 days ago||hash marks||
Any discussion of offensive philosophy has to take into account the GREAT differences between the NFL & all the others in regards to hash placement.
NFL has 18' between the hashmarks, which allows a D to line up symmetrical against you without tipping what they are going to do.
NCAA & high school football have similar hash mark placement(40' & 50' approx.) which means a D has to account for the "long" side of the field on every play. This is why the no huddle/stand there and look to the sideline works so well at those levels, along with the zone read stuff, triple option stuff and various other "schemes" that are rendered almost useless in the NFL.
This is why college QB's that are successfull often flounder at the NFL level. They have to make subtle reads themselves and cannot rely on stomping their foot and looking to the sideline for instructions.
|33 weeks 6 days ago||The most telling tweet||
Where it is mentioned that captains were done after because there was a sense of entitlement last year. Who were the captains again? Lewan?
|34 weeks 5 days ago||except that....||
We probably could have gotten Hoke for a lifetime supply of chicken wings and unlimited M gear.
When a guy says he'd "walk" to AA from SD for the job, he kinda gave away his "negotiating leverage" right out of the gate.
More evidence that pizza boy was playing favorites from the get go. Look where it got him.
|34 weeks 5 days ago||De bunked||
We offered him fair market value vs. what other DC's with similar "clout" were getting paid at the time. He didn't want to leave WVU at that particular time for whatever reason.
|34 weeks 5 days ago||P.J. Fleck?? I think thats||
P.J. Fleck?? I think thats the name of the guy at WMU right now.
Tony Annesse? Instantly turned perennial loser Ferris st. into a winner, has an offense that I'd put against the "genius" of RR or Stitt anytime(watch some youtube of his teams including GRCC, Muskegon HS or Ferris st.)
Of course this is all based on the outside chance was can't get Harbaugh and don't want Miles.
If you aren't going to end up with a proven winner, might as well get a real innovator who's won BIG at a lower level and had to overcome serious talent difficiencies.
|37 weeks 5 days ago||Tony Annesse||
If we'll look at an offensive innovater like Stitt. This guy deserves equal mention. Look at his record in 3(?)yrs at Ferris state. They went from perrenial doormat to beating GVSU and did so remarkably quickly. Previous to that he rebuilt a Muskegon HS prorgam and won mulitiple state championships.
I've watched his offense firsthand and all I can say is WOW!! I don't see anyone doing what he is doing so I don't even know what to call it.
|38 weeks 1 day ago||We need speed, but not the type being discussed here||
The slowest and most detrimental thing on our team is the MENTAL speed at which Devin Gardner processes the game of football.
His handoffs are slow. At least 6 times in every game I've watched him play I find myself yelling RUN!! or THROW!! only to watch him do it 1-2 seconds after.
His computer(brain) is running on a 120mhz processer. He's not dumb. His classroom success's at Michigan verify this. BUT..A 120mhz computer will, given enough time, perform the functions. Classroom gives you that time. Football does not.
Can you imagine watching Tom Brady run our our offense for one series? Can you imagine the recievers getting hit in stride, when they come open? They would not know what to do with balls arriving 2.5 seconds after the snap and on target.
Of course Devin is not Brady. Nor would it be fair to expect him to be. Problem is in his 5th year he's also not even Conner Cook in his 2nd.
I watched Gardner play in HS. He was playing weak competition and he won(some) with a simple game plan. Throw it up to Cameron Gordon or take off running. He never learned the game for the speed chess match that football is. He learned checkers.
Don't judge our team's speed when they are completely handicapped by Gardners sluggish processer. This team would be plenty fast with a QB who could manage a football game. Conner Cooks and Tom Brady's are forced to do that in 8th grade because they have no choice. They would be riding the bench if they didn't. "QB's" like Denard & Devin are never in that situation from youth football on. They are likely the best athletes on any team they play and get away with alot of weakness's that would bench Hackenburg & Cook early in their football life.
|38 weeks 3 days ago||Football is Football||
As a guy who watches ALOT of H.S. Football its important to note that there are 2 kinds of coaches. Those for whom its all about THEM and those for whom its all about the TEAM.
I am constantly amazed at these HS coaches trying to run multiple formation systems with sequental reads and shit. WTF!! You are the definition of delusional. You have these kids that you cannot recruit for 2 yrs at the varsity level and you want to make it as difficult as possible on them for what?? Oh yeah, so you can show everyone what a "genius" you are and MAYBE..just MAYBE get that one kid with athletic talent enough to do so into a Div 1 program.
You justify you complex offensive scheme by saying "thats what the colleges run so thats what they want to see kids in". So you basically tell the other 35-60 kids on your varsity team to go F themselves. This is all about kid X who MIGHT be good enough to get into Whatever U.
Bo coached for the TEAM. If he had Johnny Wangler and Anthony Carter he ran play action I formation power and beat them over the top. If he had a lesser O-line he ran option stuff.
Watch the MHSAA playoffs this year and see how many teams win their division running a Michigan T(power T, Dead T). Those coaches realize that they can't choose their talent, have a limited time to teach a system and therefore use the system that can deliver the best results in the fastest time with a wide variation of talent. Those coaches are NOT concerned with getting that ONE kid into a big program(thereby getting themselve attention from the coaches/staff etc.) They are concerned with whats BEST for the TEAM, the TEAM, the TEAM!!
That is what I want in ANY coach at ANY level.
|38 weeks 5 days ago||Brians very first statement||
Brians very first statement about 2007 and how it was the "right thing" is my single biggest pet peeve and point of total disagreement with Brian, who I probably 90+ percent agree with.
That is saying basically F the seniors. You don't matter to me. You suck and don't possess enough talent to bother trying to win games for you. RR could have gone a MINIMUM of 6-6 running a power based scheme with Threet/Sheridan handing to Brandon Mnor & Company & running the same basic passing scheme's both of those guys had become familiar with practicing under the previous system. We beat Utah, Toledo, Purdue & likely Northwestern but perhaps lose to Wisconsin because we're not able to use the RR stuff to exploit them in that memorable 2nd half.
Our defense & O-line were still strong enough to win us those games. The only reason(s) this was not the strategy we took were 1. RR has no idea how to coach any system other than his own(I think this is the reason BTW which is a damn shame for anyone who consider's themselves a top level football coach) or 2. RR was too impatient and thought that he could get away with ending our 30yr bowl streak( in other words he thought Michigan was just like every other school but just bigger) without losing too much support. He was wrong.
You can, and i'm sure will, continue to believe this was the right thing to do in 2008 but that does not make it so. If we assume there was a large faction of the M fanbase(20-25%?) that was anti RR from the get go, that means at least 20-25% were Pro RR and that leaves 50-60% that were on the fence waiting to see. By disregarding those seniors in 2008 and ending the bowl streak etc. What did he do to those 50-60%(myself in that group)? I'm saying he sent more of them to the anti camp than to the pro camp and never got them back. He gambled that he would go 7-5 then 9-3, that would have gotten enough of them back to win him a 4th yr. Instead he went 5-7(no bowl again) and 7-5. The fence sitters he lost in 08 were not going to move inot the neutral or pro camps with those results.