probably about welcome week. or fish. but probably welcome week.
Gomez35
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- Member for
- 2 years 43 weeks
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- Glenn Winston (starter - dismissed)
- Rod Jenrette (starter - dismissed)
- Mark Dell (starter - suspended, stayed)
- BJ Cunningham (starter - suspended, stayed)
- J'Michael Deane (part-time starter - suspended, stayed)
- Oren Wilson (starter - suspended, transferred)
- Jamiihr Williams (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Fred Smith (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Chris L. Rucker (starter - suspended, stayed)
- Ashton Leggett (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Brynden Trawick (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Ish Johnson (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Chris D. Rucker (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Donald Spencer (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Negative recruiter: This can be said about literally any college recruiter anywhere. It's such a "squishy" term that people can label many, many kinds of standard recruiting practices as negative if they want to. I also heard one DI coach say, "Don't want other guys to bad mouth your team? Don't screw up," which I think is largely true. Plus, considering the scrapbook of negative MSU newspaper clippings Carr liked to share with recruits and their parents, I'm not sure it's a good one for M fans to throw out there.
- Doesn't care about academics - graduation rates at Cincy and MSU lowest in recent history for both schools: OK, I'm calling 100% straight up BS on this. Provide a link to an honest-to-God journalistic source, or you're just another rival fan plain lying about the other team.
- "One you're fine, two you're out" policy encourages goonish behavior: Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, is that as opposed to UM's "One you're fine, two you're fine" policy (see Stonum, Darryl)? Look, Dantonio gets dinged by you guys for this, but really, what else is he supposed to do? Pre-emptively kick guys off the team because they might screw up? As a parent and an educator myself, I think what he does is exactly what you're supposed to do when a kid screws up: teach them how to do it right and give them another chance. If they screw up again, the consequences get more severe. How does that "encourage goonish behavior"?
- Threatens/bribes high school coaches in state: OK, another fabrication? Again - link, or you're just a liar.
- Thuggish behavior of his players is a disgrace to conference: I know you all have your opinions about Rather Hall, but the reality is a lot more complicated than you guys want it to be. First of all, the "brawl" wasn't even a brawl. I know, "Ski masks!" is a fun idea to throw around, but that's been pretty much entirely debunked (there's video of the entire event out there somewhere). Sure, two guys assaulted some fraternity brothers who had jumped one of them the night before (and who were properly shown the door), but there were no real injuries caused to anyone (I believe someone complained of "scratches" and another of a "sore neck") and the entire thing was over in somewhere around a minute. Were Division I football players brawling - being large, muscle-bound dudes prone to aggression - I'd venture to guess there would be some damage caused and it might be difficult to stop once started. Neither of those is true. Second, Stuart Dunnings, the DA, is a UM grad who routinely throws the stiffest possible punishments at MSU athletes. Third, the majority of the players were facing this aggressive DA who was threatening serious jailtime and thus decided to plead down to get things over with ASAP. I mean, BJ Cunningham pled to "assaulte" and "conspiracy to commit assault" because he held someone away from a teammate and tried but failed to kick someone else. Outside of Winston and Jenrette, the other guys have similar stories, which jibes with the whole "no injuries, over quickly" elements. So, while having five guys on your team who are guilty of misdemeanors isn't good (the others were either booted or transferred), the whole idea that MSU has more criminals than other college football teams is simply not true. In fact, I'd wager that UM has had a similar number of legal incidents in the past four years (though not as many guys convicted, which is another story all together).
- Sets a classless example for fans toward rivals, encouraging bad sportsmanship: Are you talking about his spat with Mike Hart? I know you guys have a different view than I do (naturally) but does Hart get any blame from you guys for being classless? I mean, I know he's one of the best backs you guys have ever had and all, but to borrow a phrase from my 3rd grader, "He started it!" Seriously though, while I didn't like everything Dantonio said in response, I think the sum of his comments was pretty much perfect, all things considered. UM's players and staff had been disrespectful toward MSU for years, culminating in Hart's comments, and he was calling them out for it and throwing down a gauntlet. I think if he were given the chance to go back in time and amend what he said, he'd probably cut the "What is he, this tall?" crack (which I agree was in poor taste), but probably nothing else. Or is there something else about it you guys have a problem with?
| Date | Title | Body |
|---|---|---|
| 1 year 32 weeks ago | Three things... Yes, for |
Three things... Yes, for all intents and purposes, it was proven that the time was kept according to the rules. Several days afterward, the Big Ten quite publically announced the fact that the MSU timekeepers performed their duties appropriately and made no errors on the play. ESPN also eventually ran a clock that showed there were something like .2 seconds left in real time. The new regulations of in-booth score and time officials was aimed at the perception of the event, not the reality. Second, yes, there was a rather awful hold on Stevens that should have been called (and would have, doubtlessly, had it happened several minutes earlier in the game). Not really much different than Charles Rogers getting dragged to the turf twice on the drive with no flags, other than its timing and influence on the ending (which made it especially egregious). Third, MSU was actually cheated out of downs, yardage, and time on the clock in the plays preceding Smoker's spike. Two plays before, UM sacked Smoker with twelve men on the field, and the officials marked off the penalty from where he was taken down, not the original LOS. They also played the next down as 2nd, rather than 1st, and never reset the clock. So, all things considered, the game never should've even come down to the fractions of a second it did.
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| 1 year 35 weeks ago | You guys do realize that |
You guys do realize that after the '01 MSU-UM game the Big Ten's head of officiating made a public statement that time was kept 100% correctly during the end of the game, right? Just checking.
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| 1 year 37 weeks ago | I have no idea when UM fans |
I have no idea when UM fans decided they had won a sufficient number of games over MSU to declare themselves officially Awesome(TM), but on your larger point I can more or less agree with you (though I'd argue that the vast majority of MSU fans are more rational than to claim they've established utter domination over UM, and UM fans are focusing on the loud minority).
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| 1 year 37 weeks ago | Just wanted to point this |
Just wanted to point this out: UM fans never wanted asterisks placed next to wins over historically bad MSU teams Bobby Williams and John L. Smith rolled out for UM to play, so why do UM fans expect MSU to do it for their wins over bad UM teams?
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| 1 year 37 weeks ago | You do realize that after |
You do realize that after WWII (specifically, 1950) is about the time MSU joined the Big Ten, right? Not just some random time period? Seems reasonable to measure from the point both schools were on equal footing. And if you start the clock when the Paul Bunyan trophy was introduced (i.e. 1953, when MSU actually joined the conference for athletics - most of the MSU-UM games before that were played in AA, since MSU was such a small school) the record is 34-21-2. Not great for MSU, but hardly the "OMG TOTAL DOMINATION!!1" UM fans love to throw out there. I know you guys love to call this stuff "trolling" but I think a little perspective can be helpful in threads like this.
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| 1 year 41 weeks ago | Wow - thanks for the |
Wow - thanks for the thoughftul reply. I assumed most would be of the "Ha, your STUPID," variety without much actual comment. That said, virtually all of your points seem to stem from personal interactions (either with Dantonio or someone who was recruited by him) which I have no real way to refute, aside from citing the many folks who have publically stated the opposite of what you have. I mean, I could say I stand 100% behind the "negative recruiting" comment (which I do), and I could pick at a few things ("slapping on the wrist" for one), but I won't bother getting into a "My dad can beat up your dad!" style argument (which it looks like might be unavoidable anyway, unfortunately). I'll let you guys get back to your "Boo, Dantonio!" party, and chime in some other time on another issue. Peace.
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| 1 year 41 weeks ago | Ay, ay, ay. Thanks for |
Ay, ay, ay. Thanks for nothing. Dude was an embarrassment to the University. Shame on MSU, I guess. That's what we got for bringing in a hillbilly outsider from a smaller conference.
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| 1 year 41 weeks ago | Well, there's the Glenn |
Well, there's the Glenn Winston deal, where a fight involving two people with no prior record ended with one of them serving the longest possible time allowed under the law. "I do believe the sentence is harsher than normal," said Winston's attorney, Jim Newton of MSU Student Legal Services. "I have never seen that type of sentence in this type of case. There's also Rather Hall, where rather than initiate plea deals with the major instigators from the get-go (which is pretty standard procedure for minor fights on campus - how many fratties get booted for their Friday night fisticuffs?), Dunnings charged every athlete who was present, whether they actually threw punches or not. Going back further, Kellen Freeman Davis was arrested for pushing a kid into the river after the kid had assaulted him in the first place. There's also Terry Love and Irving Campbell who blew up a pop bottle bomb in an empty parking lot who were charged with "bomb making". I know, in places like Ann Arbor, Iowa City, and Happy Valley, cops and lawyers tend to take care of athletes (not much in Ann Arbor since Rodriguez took over, admittedly), but that just doesn't happen in East Lansing.
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| 1 year 41 weeks ago | Sweet - I didn't realize you |
Sweet - I didn't realize you guys would highlight my work like this (though most of your reactions are about what I expected). I know you don't get many dissenting opinions around here, so maybe it's the novelty. At any rate, I'll give it another go in response to this one...
If football coaches were expected to kick off the team every player who got in a fight, some of them would hardly be able to field enough guys (see Iowa and PSU in recent years). I know you used the term "violent crimes" but can you explain why getting into a fight is a significantly worse crime than, say, committing burglary? Now, once MSU players planned to go and assault someone - that's a worse crime, and was treated as such. The whole "right out of jail and into practice" thing is totally overblown too, all because of the timing. The fact is, by that time Glenn Winston had been suspended four games, missed all of bowl practice, missed winter workouts, missed spring camp, missed summer conditioning, and had served 180 days in jail. Just because he happened to be released right when practice was starting doesn't mean he had a light punishment, or that Dantonio was going easy on him. Quite to the contrary. Finally, here's the list of players who you're referencing who were involved in the Rather Hall fiasco: Only the two-timers were cut. Now you can argue that some of the transfers were "suggested" transfers, but several of them were poised to be starters or challenging for starting spots this season, and the majority of backups stuck around. Hardly kicking scrubs to the curb, and it seems to me all of them served appropriate punishments (i.e. suspensions + community service).
You did see where I said I was playing Devil's Advocate, right? Plus, if you read my post again I hardly equated the two crimes, just the handling. The fact is, every single MSU player under Dantonio who has had even a minor brush with the law (even "urinating in public" when a kid got busted peeing in the bushes on the way home from a party) has been suspended for some amount of time or another, just like I assume has happened at UM. At MSU, if the same players screwed up again, they got more serious punishment, which, in fact, did not happen with Stonum (though, to be fair, I don't know all the details of his probation violation, so can't say a lot about it). Not as egregious as Bowman's deal at PSU, but still.
You obviously missed my sarcasm (damn internet). And the part where I said I wish Dantonio hadn't cracked about Hart's height. But where I come from, 21 years old does not a kid make. He should own his smart-ass, disrespectful comment, just like Dantonio should. Now, like I asked before: What, aside from the crack about Hart's height, did Dantonio say that was disrespectful? Because that's all I see, and that's not significantly worse than what Hart said.
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| 1 year 41 weeks ago | As the token MSU fan here, I |
As the token MSU fan here, I always feel the need to stand up for my alma mater when it's being unfairly maligned, so I think I'll respond to this (though I know it's sort of wishful thinking to hope most of you will be swayed)... OK, that's probably more than most of you will read, and I probably didn't change anyone's mind, but I felt compelled to try, regardless. Enjoy!
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