to play football, not to play trumpet
- Member for
- 6 years 27 weeks
- Glenn Winston (starter - dismissed)
- Rod Jenrette (starter - dismissed)
- Mark Dell (starter - suspended, stayed)
- BJ Cunningham (starter - suspended, stayed)
- J'Michael Deane (part-time starter - suspended, stayed)
- Oren Wilson (starter - suspended, transferred)
- Jamiihr Williams (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Fred Smith (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Chris L. Rucker (starter - suspended, stayed)
- Ashton Leggett (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Brynden Trawick (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Ish Johnson (backup - suspended, transferred)
- Chris D. Rucker (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Donald Spencer (backup - suspended, stayed)
- Negative recruiter: This can be said about literally any college recruiter anywhere. It's such a "squishy" term that people can label many, many kinds of standard recruiting practices as negative if they want to. I also heard one DI coach say, "Don't want other guys to bad mouth your team? Don't screw up," which I think is largely true. Plus, considering the scrapbook of negative MSU newspaper clippings Carr liked to share with recruits and their parents, I'm not sure it's a good one for M fans to throw out there.
- Doesn't care about academics - graduation rates at Cincy and MSU lowest in recent history for both schools: OK, I'm calling 100% straight up BS on this. Provide a link to an honest-to-God journalistic source, or you're just another rival fan plain lying about the other team.
- "One you're fine, two you're out" policy encourages goonish behavior: Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, is that as opposed to UM's "One you're fine, two you're fine" policy (see Stonum, Darryl)? Look, Dantonio gets dinged by you guys for this, but really, what else is he supposed to do? Pre-emptively kick guys off the team because they might screw up? As a parent and an educator myself, I think what he does is exactly what you're supposed to do when a kid screws up: teach them how to do it right and give them another chance. If they screw up again, the consequences get more severe. How does that "encourage goonish behavior"?
- Threatens/bribes high school coaches in state: OK, another fabrication? Again - link, or you're just a liar.
- Thuggish behavior of his players is a disgrace to conference: I know you all have your opinions about Rather Hall, but the reality is a lot more complicated than you guys want it to be. First of all, the "brawl" wasn't even a brawl. I know, "Ski masks!" is a fun idea to throw around, but that's been pretty much entirely debunked (there's video of the entire event out there somewhere). Sure, two guys assaulted some fraternity brothers who had jumped one of them the night before (and who were properly shown the door), but there were no real injuries caused to anyone (I believe someone complained of "scratches" and another of a "sore neck") and the entire thing was over in somewhere around a minute. Were Division I football players brawling - being large, muscle-bound dudes prone to aggression - I'd venture to guess there would be some damage caused and it might be difficult to stop once started. Neither of those is true. Second, Stuart Dunnings, the DA, is a UM grad who routinely throws the stiffest possible punishments at MSU athletes. Third, the majority of the players were facing this aggressive DA who was threatening serious jailtime and thus decided to plead down to get things over with ASAP. I mean, BJ Cunningham pled to "assaulte" and "conspiracy to commit assault" because he held someone away from a teammate and tried but failed to kick someone else. Outside of Winston and Jenrette, the other guys have similar stories, which jibes with the whole "no injuries, over quickly" elements. So, while having five guys on your team who are guilty of misdemeanors isn't good (the others were either booted or transferred), the whole idea that MSU has more criminals than other college football teams is simply not true. In fact, I'd wager that UM has had a similar number of legal incidents in the past four years (though not as many guys convicted, which is another story all together).
- Sets a classless example for fans toward rivals, encouraging bad sportsmanship: Are you talking about his spat with Mike Hart? I know you guys have a different view than I do (naturally) but does Hart get any blame from you guys for being classless? I mean, I know he's one of the best backs you guys have ever had and all, but to borrow a phrase from my 3rd grader, "He started it!" Seriously though, while I didn't like everything Dantonio said in response, I think the sum of his comments was pretty much perfect, all things considered. UM's players and staff had been disrespectful toward MSU for years, culminating in Hart's comments, and he was calling them out for it and throwing down a gauntlet. I think if he were given the chance to go back in time and amend what he said, he'd probably cut the "What is he, this tall?" crack (which I agree was in poor taste), but probably nothing else. Or is there something else about it you guys have a problem with?
|5 years 17 weeks ago||Three things... Yes, for||
Yes, for all intents and purposes, it was proven that the time was kept according to the rules. Several days afterward, the Big Ten quite publically announced the fact that the MSU timekeepers performed their duties appropriately and made no errors on the play. ESPN also eventually ran a clock that showed there were something like .2 seconds left in real time. The new regulations of in-booth score and time officials was aimed at the perception of the event, not the reality.
Second, yes, there was a rather awful hold on Stevens that should have been called (and would have, doubtlessly, had it happened several minutes earlier in the game). Not really much different than Charles Rogers getting dragged to the turf twice on the drive with no flags, other than its timing and influence on the ending (which made it especially egregious).
Third, MSU was actually cheated out of downs, yardage, and time on the clock in the plays preceding Smoker's spike. Two plays before, UM sacked Smoker with twelve men on the field, and the officials marked off the penalty from where he was taken down, not the original LOS. They also played the next down as 2nd, rather than 1st, and never reset the clock. So, all things considered, the game never should've even come down to the fractions of a second it did.
|5 years 20 weeks ago||You guys do realize that||
You guys do realize that after the '01 MSU-UM game the Big Ten's head of officiating made a public statement that time was kept 100% correctly during the end of the game, right? Just checking.
|5 years 22 weeks ago||I have no idea when UM fans||
I have no idea when UM fans decided they had won a sufficient number of games over MSU to declare themselves officially Awesome(TM), but on your larger point I can more or less agree with you (though I'd argue that the vast majority of MSU fans are more rational than to claim they've established utter domination over UM, and UM fans are focusing on the loud minority).
|5 years 22 weeks ago||Just wanted to point this||
Just wanted to point this out: UM fans never wanted asterisks placed next to wins over historically bad MSU teams Bobby Williams and John L. Smith rolled out for UM to play, so why do UM fans expect MSU to do it for their wins over bad UM teams?
|5 years 22 weeks ago||You do realize that after||
You do realize that after WWII (specifically, 1950) is about the time MSU joined the Big Ten, right? Not just some random time period? Seems reasonable to measure from the point both schools were on equal footing. And if you start the clock when the Paul Bunyan trophy was introduced (i.e. 1953, when MSU actually joined the conference for athletics - most of the MSU-UM games before that were played in AA, since MSU was such a small school) the record is 34-21-2. Not great for MSU, but hardly the "OMG TOTAL DOMINATION!!1" UM fans love to throw out there.
I know you guys love to call this stuff "trolling" but I think a little perspective can be helpful in threads like this.
|5 years 26 weeks ago||Wow - thanks for the||
Wow - thanks for the thoughftul reply. I assumed most would be of the "Ha, your STUPID," variety without much actual comment.
That said, virtually all of your points seem to stem from personal interactions (either with Dantonio or someone who was recruited by him) which I have no real way to refute, aside from citing the many folks who have publically stated the opposite of what you have. I mean, I could say I stand 100% behind the "negative recruiting" comment (which I do), and I could pick at a few things ("slapping on the wrist" for one), but I won't bother getting into a "My dad can beat up your dad!" style argument (which it looks like might be unavoidable anyway, unfortunately). I'll let you guys get back to your "Boo, Dantonio!" party, and chime in some other time on another issue.
|5 years 26 weeks ago||Ay, ay, ay. Thanks for||
Ay, ay, ay. Thanks for nothing. Dude was an embarrassment to the University. Shame on MSU, I guess. That's what we got for bringing in a hillbilly outsider from a smaller conference.
|5 years 26 weeks ago||Well, there's the Glenn||
Well, there's the Glenn Winston deal, where a fight involving two people with no prior record ended with one of them serving the longest possible time allowed under the law.
"I do believe the sentence is harsher than normal," said Winston's attorney, Jim Newton of MSU Student Legal Services. "I have never seen that type of sentence in this type of case.
There's also Rather Hall, where rather than initiate plea deals with the major instigators from the get-go (which is pretty standard procedure for minor fights on campus - how many fratties get booted for their Friday night fisticuffs?), Dunnings charged every athlete who was present, whether they actually threw punches or not.
Going back further, Kellen Freeman Davis was arrested for pushing a kid into the river after the kid had assaulted him in the first place. There's also Terry Love and Irving Campbell who blew up a pop bottle bomb in an empty parking lot who were charged with "bomb making".
I know, in places like Ann Arbor, Iowa City, and Happy Valley, cops and lawyers tend to take care of athletes (not much in Ann Arbor since Rodriguez took over, admittedly), but that just doesn't happen in East Lansing.
|5 years 26 weeks ago||Sweet - I didn't realize you||
Sweet - I didn't realize you guys would highlight my work like this (though most of your reactions are about what I expected). I know you don't get many dissenting opinions around here, so maybe it's the novelty. At any rate, I'll give it another go in response to this one...
If football coaches were expected to kick off the team every player who got in a fight, some of them would hardly be able to field enough guys (see Iowa and PSU in recent years). I know you used the term "violent crimes" but can you explain why getting into a fight is a significantly worse crime than, say, committing burglary? Now, once MSU players planned to go and assault someone - that's a worse crime, and was treated as such.
The whole "right out of jail and into practice" thing is totally overblown too, all because of the timing. The fact is, by that time Glenn Winston had been suspended four games, missed all of bowl practice, missed winter workouts, missed spring camp, missed summer conditioning, and had served 180 days in jail. Just because he happened to be released right when practice was starting doesn't mean he had a light punishment, or that Dantonio was going easy on him. Quite to the contrary.
Finally, here's the list of players who you're referencing who were involved in the Rather Hall fiasco:
Only the two-timers were cut. Now you can argue that some of the transfers were "suggested" transfers, but several of them were poised to be starters or challenging for starting spots this season, and the majority of backups stuck around. Hardly kicking scrubs to the curb, and it seems to me all of them served appropriate punishments (i.e. suspensions + community service).
You did see where I said I was playing Devil's Advocate, right? Plus, if you read my post again I hardly equated the two crimes, just the handling. The fact is, every single MSU player under Dantonio who has had even a minor brush with the law (even "urinating in public" when a kid got busted peeing in the bushes on the way home from a party) has been suspended for some amount of time or another, just like I assume has happened at UM. At MSU, if the same players screwed up again, they got more serious punishment, which, in fact, did not happen with Stonum (though, to be fair, I don't know all the details of his probation violation, so can't say a lot about it). Not as egregious as Bowman's deal at PSU, but still.
You obviously missed my sarcasm (damn internet). And the part where I said I wish Dantonio hadn't cracked about Hart's height. But where I come from, 21 years old does not a kid make. He should own his smart-ass, disrespectful comment, just like Dantonio should. Now, like I asked before: What, aside from the crack about Hart's height, did Dantonio say that was disrespectful? Because that's all I see, and that's not significantly worse than what Hart said.
|5 years 26 weeks ago||As the token MSU fan here, I||
As the token MSU fan here, I always feel the need to stand up for my alma mater when it's being unfairly maligned, so I think I'll respond to this (though I know it's sort of wishful thinking to hope most of you will be swayed)...
OK, that's probably more than most of you will read, and I probably didn't change anyone's mind, but I felt compelled to try, regardless. Enjoy!
|5 years 27 weeks ago||Just a few points before I||
Just a few points before I retire from this thread (being on a UM board and all)...
*I never said anything about 2008 and 2009 representing anything, just that MSU was very close to having back to back 9 win seasons. Now, Dantonio is fond of saying football is a game of inches, and obviously in 2008 those inches were in MSU's favor while in 2009 they weren't, but still - it's reasonable to think that MSU is on the cusp of emerging as a better team than they've recently been (a la the Iowa Hawkeyes, circa 2003).
*The Minnesota play in question came on their late 4th quarter game-winning drive - receiver catches the ball, takes three steps, gets drilled and fumbles, with MSU returning it deep into Minnesota territory to ostensibly seal the win... only for the call to get overturned in the replay booth. Hardly a stellar MSU defensive performance, but they did make a big enough play to win it.
*While MSU struggled to get a push on the ground in short yardage situations, they still averaged almost 4.5 yards per carry for the season as a team. That said, ask virtually any MSU fan and they will say that the OL is the key to the season - no argument about that. If it performs just barely better than badly, 7-8 wins is likely; if it performs well, 9+ wins is attainable.
|5 years 27 weeks ago||How do you define "regular||
How do you define "regular starters"? Foreman and Young started more or less the entire year, Stipek started approximately half the regular season, and Deane was a starter when the season began before getting injured the first game. They also have several highly regarded RS Frosh and Sophs from Dantonio's first recruiting classes pushing from the two-deeps.
Also, "Cousins had a bad habit of giving up on plays and throwing it away at the first hint of pressure" sounds awfully subjective. At least you can quantify the number of sacks allowed - in fact, it'd be hard to argue that an OL was good if they gave up a large number of sacks, so it makes sense that the opposite is at least somewhat true.
Hey, I'm hardly claiming MSU's line is outstanding, just that they have a good chance to be all right.
|5 years 27 weeks ago||They return Young, Foreman,||
They return Young, Foreman, Stipek, and Dean, all of whom started at points last year. And while their push on the ground wasn't great, they gave up the fewest sacks in the league last year.
|5 years 27 weeks ago||Just to play Devil's||
Just to play Devil's advocate, MSU was 9-3 in 2008, and was three plays (Colin Neely's itchy trigger finger going offsides against CMU, Larry Caper not reaching for a game-winning TD vs. ND, and a botched fumble call vs. Minn.) from being 9-3 last year.
On offense, they return all their skill positions from one of league's most productive units and will have 4 players who started on the OL last year. On defense, they have one of the league's best DT's (Worthy) and the league's best LB (Jones), and return their best CB (Adams, who sat out last year due injury plus his grandmother's illness and eventual death).
In addition, in 09 they lost to 2 of the league's expected top teams by a total of 11 points (Iowa 12-15, UW 38-30).
From a Spartan fan's perspective, their schedule breaks down like this...
Expected wins: WMU, FAU, UNC (Colorado, that is), UI, @NU, Minn, PU
Expected losses: UW, @ IA, @PSU
Toss ups: @UM, ND
If they manage to win both toss-ups and get lucky with the Wisconsin, Iowa, Penn State games, they sure look like they could be a possible (though unlikely) Rose Bowl team.
|6 years 14 min ago||Just FYI, but Winston was||
Just FYI, but Winston was suspended from MSU's football team for months during the 08-09 season before he was convicted of any crime.
|6 years 25 weeks ago||Re: Cal-MSU||
I wouldn't call 38-31 a blow out. But that's just me.
|6 years 25 weeks ago||Just FYI, but Comparoni's "I||
Just FYI, but Comparoni's "I assume he missed summer conditioning" was probably an allusion to some of the talk that was idly bandied about immediately after Winston's sentencing in which it was speculated that he might end up serving six-months' worth of weekends, and remain free to go about his business during the week. His sentence was very, very harsh for misdemeanor assault (ah, the wonders of the public defender), and some speculated that arrangement might have been part of the deal.
|6 years 26 weeks ago||I'm with you.||
When we lived in SoCal, my friends were on my case to try In-N-Out. To be honest, it took me a while to really develop a taste for it, but once I did it was game-over. No better fast food anywhere.
Chick-Fil-A is a solid second choice, too. I could eat at those two joints for a month straight without getting tired of either.
|6 years 26 weeks ago||They may have been mediocre||
They may have been mediocre (or, more often, just plain bad) but for 35 cents, they were hard to beat.
|6 years 27 weeks ago||I think you're seeing stuff that's not really there...||
"Then what about his comments regarding the M vs. OSU game in '07?"
Do you mean when he replied "Go Bucks," upon being asked who he was rooting for? I think that just reinforces the "Dantoio doesn't like UM" idea.
"Or after Sparty got handled in their bowl game; instead of merely commenting on his own teams struggles and successes, he AGAIN takes the opportunity to get a little swipe in at M."
I THINK (not totally sure, admittedly) this was before the bowl game. Some reporter asked him if he was disappointed in MSU's record, considering they got pantsed twice in conference. His reply was, "Well, I'd rather be 9-3 than 3-9," which I know UM fans took umbrage with. But I really think that was a case of people projecting their own baggage onto what the man said. I mean, from a rhetorical perspective, it looks like he just took his team's record and transposed it for for argument's sake to prove a point. It's similar to the "Dantonio's Digs" (I think that was the thread title here, but I could well be wrong) from the Big Ten Media Days - at face value, he said absolutely nothing about any team other than MSU, but people who don't like him assume he's got some snide ulterior motive.
|6 years 27 weeks ago||... That's sort of what I||
That's sort of what I assumed, but not what I expected to hear (er, read). Thanks.
|6 years 27 weeks ago||Look, Mark Dantonio doesn't||
Look, Mark Dantonio doesn't like the University of Michigan. He grew up a ND fan, spent more than eight years as an assistant at OSU and MSU, and then became a head coach at a program needing to make a statement about their position in relation to UM. Go figure that he's got a cinderblock sized chip on his shoulder when it comes to them.
On top of that, he's seen all the negative recruiting materials UM's coaches have used against MSU, he knows about all the bulletin board material they paste around the locker room before the MSU game, he knows what MSU's reputation has been like the past decade with HS coaches around the state... When he heard about Mike Hart's cocky "little brother" comment, I can imagine all that BS sort of flooded his system and caused him to lose his cool and act like an asshole for thirty seconds.
And anyway, it's not like Dantonio made his comments in print or on any TV airwaves - he said what he said to MSU beat writers, one of whom happened to have a camera rolling. And if you've seen the video, you can tell he regretted running the "Is Mike Hart the little brother? What is he, this tall?" line shortly thereafter: his tone changes, he makes a half-assed "not going to comment", he looks sheepish. He knew he screwed up.
Aside from that one moment where he lost control and made a dickhead comment (and to be fair, it was in response to Hart's previous douchebag comment), I'm not sure where this theme of "Dantonio is SO classless/childish/insert-your-own-derogatory-adjective-here" has come from (I mean, since then he has even seemed to go out of his way to make positive comments about RR and UM). As a Spartan, I wasn't a big fan of him getting snarky like that (everything he said after that on the video I loved, though), but I do understand how he could get mad enough to screw up that much, so I can forgive him for it (and I also understand why UM fans are less forgiving - it's the way of the world). What I don't get is how the one comment means he's a total classless dick (or whatever else UM fans on the interwebs have been calling him).
Can you guys explain it to me? Gracias.
|6 years 27 weeks ago||I've seen people refer to||
I've seen people refer to last year's MSU team as "their best in who knows how long" (or something similar) but the reality is they weren't very good at any one thing at all.
Offense? Huh. Ringer was a great back, but their rushing offense was at the bottom of the league overall, and Hoyer's completion percentage hovered right around 50%. Receivers had talent, but were also inexperienced and dropped balls like they were playing hot potato.
Defense? Totally mediocre. In part due to injuries and lack of experience, but still mediocre. Don't get me wrong, they had (and have) some excellent talent, but the numbers are what they are: 7th in pass defense, 8th in run defense. Not very many sacks, OK in TO differential (+2 or so).
What helped them shed the "SOS" (Same Old Spartans) label was the fact that they minimized penalties and played good, smart football at crunch time. They were one of the least penalized teams in the league last year, and in both the Iowa and Wisconsin games (games they would certainly have lost under John L. Smith) they hung in there, made big plays when they needed to, and did just enough to win.
UM fans will undoubtedly say it was pure luck while MSU fans will likely say it was all coaching. The truth is somewhere in between. Hemingway famously said, "You make your own luck," which seems to apply here.
|6 years 27 weeks ago||If you go back to 2007, MSU's||
If you go back to 2007, MSU's offense was the one of the best in the Big Ten, and it featured a wide variety of weapons - Devin Thomas, Kellen Freeman-Davis, Jehuu Caulcrick, Javon Ringer... Last year featured Ringer so prominently because there was no "banger" like Caulcrick and the receivers were unfortunately young and unreliable.
The playbook won't "change" - Dantonio and Don Treadwell are on record many, many times calling their offense "multiple", meaning it will take advantage of what's available to move the ball. Last year just happened to have one guy that was better at that than anyone else.