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Win the game.

Win the game.

We weren't jumping up and

We weren't jumping up and down when a JP Oosterbaan or Steve Stoyko signed back in the day, if they were outside of the Top 100 we knew they probably weren't going to contribute much for the first couple of years, if ever.

We still know that, right?

(I feel old now...sorry)

Joubert was already a legend

Joubert was already a legend as a HS Junior, everyone was emulating him on the playground; by the end of his senior year people were already starting to doubt how good he would become, even though he was still a Top-10 player...he was skilled he just didn't have enough athleticism once he started adding some bulk so to speak.

Seems like a great pick for

Seems like a great pick for the 4th round, big and violent with 4.5 speed. I like what Quinn is doing so far...

Take that back!

Take that back!

I would think that if we

I would think that if we uncoupled what the ceiling of the program is from "fire Beilein" then we would probably get a more optimistic view of the future.

I find it hard to believe at this point that Michigan wouldn't go after a premier coach who could also recruit at the highest level while staying clean in doing so. Personally, I think if that were to happen we'd then see that we could consistently pull Top 50 players, albeit maybe not at a Kentucky or Duke level and we would then see the current results as less than ideal.

 

The Beach Boys--Pet

The Beach Boys--Pet Sounds

The Pretty Things--S.F. Sorrow

Pink Floyd--The Wall

The problem is that when you

The problem is that when you go a notch deeper you realize that he recruited a 67,148,179,218 class where they all signed early, leaving no room to get in on a Top 50 player later on; and although we obviously all hope they wind up being great players, that really shouldn't be accepted at Michigan.

The other problem is that we collectively seem to have a hard time quantifying just what this "dirty" recruiting atmosphere means when it comes to our recruiting expectations; we have 3 Top 50 players now, we were in on Brown and Battle, what level of player should we expect Michigan to be able to get without paying?

Indiana, Purdue and Marquette as examples all have Top 20 players, do we think they're all cheating? Or are those players exceptions? And if they are, shouldn't we also be able to go after certain players at that level? I'm not sure how well understood this narrative has been--if we can get say, 20-30% of the Top 50 without paying, we should certainly be trying to do that each year.

 

What's funny is the current

What's funny is the current situation is sort of a combination of the Orr/Frieder situations.

Orr didn't recruit, then he had a period where some nice players came in, then he didn't recruit again and lost the state to Magic Johnson. Like you said, Frieder was doing everything by that time and Orr moving on was the right thing to do.

I wasn't in the fire Frieder camp, but something was clearly wrong with the '89 team relative to the fantastic talent level on the team; Illinois ran them off the floor with a bunch of (very good) 6'6 guys. They didn't bang, didn't put a body on anyone, played very antiseptic basketball.

When Fisher took over you could see the difference within a couple of games; by the time they played North Carolina who had knocked them out the previous two years and was the only other team with UM's talent level, it was a completely different team, they wouldn't have come close to a title without the coaching change.

That doesn't mean fire Beilein, but the recruiting and defense has to get a lot better and I think people are just trying to assess how likely that is to happen.

I agree, it's dirty. But is

I agree, it's dirty. But is that why a team that has shown they can pull Top 50 players is being outrecruited by Harvard?

Well why do you think the two

Well why do you think the two sports are that different, other than recent results? They're both dirty... I can tell you with no research at all that between 1982 and 1987 UM signed 12 Top 50 players, and no they were not all on the take. Maybe I overestimated Stauskas' ranking but the point remains, in 2014 we had 4 Top 50 players on the team, so it can be done.

So when he suggests that maybe an all early signing class where 3 of the 4 are well outside the top 100 (not disparaging, hope they all wind up being great players) might not be solely because we can't get anyone higher, but instead may be a case of choosing not to try, what exactly is wrong with that?

We just watched Harbaugh

We just watched Harbaugh earlier this week scratch and claw to the last minute to sign every top player he could.

The BB team, a team that signed a number of top players four years ago, this year signed a 4 man class, all early signing period, 3 of which are well outside the Top 100. Because of course now as opposed to four years ago, it can't be done. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

I think his conclusion might have more substance, or at the very least a notion they seem to have that you can unearth a Burke or Caris at will instead of going for the top players.

I kinda think Hackett is

I kinda think Hackett is being his advocate here, Rashan seemed to be under significant stress yesterday and its possible based on rumors elsewhere that he had to go against family members to make this choice, which would be a horrible position to be put into. Maybe he had Rashan's blessing in saying something?

I walked around in the Blair

I walked around in the Blair Witch woods with a Michigan hat on once, didn't die or anything...

That perception may be due to

That perception may be due to most of his biggest fights coming after he was 30 when he needed the somewhat unfortunate skill of being able to take punishment; he was fighting some of the best fighters of all time at that point too.

We didn't get to see Ali from '67-'69 when he would have been at his peak. I personally wouldn't regard him as overrated at all, he just didn't fight his best competition in the mid sixties when he was almost impossible to hit and could hit anyone from anywhere.

In '84 I would buy some

In '84 I would buy some random Heavy Metal cassette every week and at some point stumbled onto Ride The Lightning and the song I couldn't get enough of was Creeping Death; so one night I gave it to a friend driving a car full of fellow teenage Heavy Metal afficianados to check out and they all HATED it, so much so that the driver ejected the tape and tried to throw it out the window but I snatched it out of his hand.

3 years later, everyone was listening to it.

I think the problem is that

I think the problem is that it is pretty clear at this point that what they are doing can be improved upon, either by communicating better or a bit earlier, or by making sure the offers are non-committable.

Their logic may not be simply a matter of offering lower rated players because they didn't know if they would be in on higher rated guys later; it could also be that they are trying to get in on some diamonds-in-the-rough before they blow up and are willing to cut bait if they don't.

I'm personally alright with that as long as it is framed honestly with the recruit and I struggle to understand why that can't happen, and if it can why justify it? It just doesn't seem necessary to have to do this if we can all see how it can be improved upon and still recruit at the highest level.

Yep, I think we assume he's

Yep, I think we assume he's solely a Plan B kid in case UM isn't in the running for Top 100 players at this point; but there's always the possibility that Weaver blows up during his senior season and becomes a high 4 star or something, and if so this would all be different right now. That isn't to agree with it, but it could be part of the reasoning.

It kind of seems like

It kind of seems like gamesmanship; like he was trying to not lose his scholarship and resisting any notion that he still had to earn it. It could be that he knew he was in trouble if he had to prove his worth and finagled a way not to, and it backfired on him.

Harbaugh won't take a kid that does that just on principle, and shouldn't if its in fact the case. People can say its bad optics, but it could wind up being appealing to the most competitive of recruits, who are the ones he wants anyways.

Defintely would hope they

Defintely would hope they would have communicated this to him a couple of months ago, but I don't really understand what the point is of having a formal offer before the end of their senior season to begin with.

First because of exactly what seems to be the case here; that the team doesn't really know how good a player is going to become until their high school career is over relative to their competition; and secondly because in Harbaugh's case he doesn't have any idea what caliber of player they are going to have access to depending on how his first season with the team goes.

It just seems to set the team up for accepting players they don't really want; or sets the player up to be betrayed to allow formal offers to go out before, say, December or so. Maybe there is a good reason and I just don't know what it is.

He did do a nice job with

He did do a nice job with Charles Jefferson.

ESPN Que chupar un copo de
ESPN Que chupar un copo de maíz

 

You're right about the

You're right about the competition in the Catholic league, but Thiyo Lukusa in particular was regarded as one of the top OL in Michigan before he transferred out of Traverse City.

Well I had a friend on the

Well I had a friend on the team back then and I didn't see his life change any until he got NBA dollars; but because we don't know how far back this all went it sort of illustrates a problem in which we think there has to be some sort of voodoo attached to getting a top high school player. Frieder was always known as a manic recruiter back to his being an assistant.

I mean without casting aspersions on anyone's future prospects I don't think we signed an all early signing 69,140,180, 214 class because we're not paying people and everyone else is. The 2012 class shows what can be done, and I would certainly assume that was clean.

Well they didn't have to;

Well they didn't have to; Magic 2 years, Isiah 2 years, etc...but if Michigan's players stayed longer back then so did the competition's.

Indiana had a talented veteran team in '86 when Bobby Knight said basically that no one could deal with Michigan when they were "on" and he wished he had their backups or even their redshirts.

Yes, as said in the deleted

Yes, as said in the deleted thread last night, Johnny Orr is the closest comparison to what is happening now. He led Michigan to 2 elite 8's and a National runner up in 4 years, and then his record tailed off for 3 seasons when his recruiting tailed off.

But I think its also a bit unfair to categorize those who are wishing to correct the narrative as to what Michigan is capable of as a program, to automatically advocating that Beilein should go.

What Michigan did in the eighties, could absolutely be done now. Frieder wasn't a great bench coach, certainly not the offensive mastermind Beilein is, but look at who he brought in:

1982-Richard Rellford (low 20's) 3 other Top 50 players and Roy frickin' Tarpley

1983-Antoine Joubert (5)

1984-Gary Grant (8)

1985-Glen Rice (7)

1986-Terry Mills (2), Rumeal Robinson (10)

1987-Sean Higgins (11)

That doesn't include Garde Thompson, Loy Vaught, Mike Griffin, Mark Hughes, etc... all top 100.

Those are national rankings, mostly from Bob Gibbons, but now Michigan can't do that? Why not? That doesn't mean Beilein should go, but to say Michigan can't do now what they did do then doesn't make any sense; its simply showing what the Michigan program is in fact capable of, which was a national championship caliber team year in year out from '84-'90.

Mayday. Fell off the couch

Mayday. Fell off the couch laughing, literally...

This is exactly right; its

This is exactly right; its the equivalent of Bo's DC leaving in 1969 while interviewing before the OSU game and then taking coaches and recruits with him, albeit hypothetically at this point. Would history view that fondly?

 

I think you have to go back

I think you have to go back to Bo's logic when he refused to let Frieder coach in the NCAA's in '89; you're either for Michigan or you're not. So when we see 42 points by OSU, possibly telling Dontavious Jackson he isn't going anywhere when in fact he is, the potential fallout with the New Jersey kids if Partridge leaves, we're seeing a negative impact for the team we're rooting for; no one is against Durkin or Partridge (or whoever else) upward mobility, but we are reacting to what is or could be happening to MICHIGAN here, and its not nothing.

Coaches who signed on to restore UM to greatness jumping ship less than one year in will absolutely get a response, and should.

Not only him but the team as

Not only him but the team as well.

Recruiting

I don't really agree that OSU has been recruiting at a level above UM for 30+ years, the 80's Bo teams generally were filled with the guys he wanted and were extremely talented teams and that carried over into the 90's; I think the difference in the past decade though is that OSU is targeting players that are not only highly rated but they are extremely athletic and fit what they want to do.

Michigan meanwhile seemed to be recruiting well on paper but there didn't seem to be anyone on staff capable of determining that Elliot was the hit and Green was the miss, for example as tough as that would be when looking at a 5 star; it was more like recruiting the numbers rather than mining for the best talent, and also did UM want any speed at all on their team? I watched from a UP bar on Sat. and this guy kept yelling out "why are all our linebackers white"? Now personally, I'd be fine with a Ham, Lambert, Russell linebacking corp, but I think what he was trying to get at in a somewhat racist way is why aren't we recruiting any speed?

Harbaugh has to get to a point where he is getting a good percentage of the guys HE wants, and those guys have to be more athletic than what we have out there now at most positions, and I'm sure he already realizes that.

Although I'm surprised this

Although I'm surprised this game wasn't closer, the sad truth is that Urban had everything he needed on his roster when he walked in the door, has had 4 years to implement his scheme and get even better talent that matched his scheme on the roster.

Harbaugh just has more work to do to get there, Michigan was just much farther down I think than OSU's one year abberation; things overall have certainly improved this year but even though we have talent in spots he needs better and faster players across the board...it'll happen but we have a serious problem at LB especially that they need to address rapidly if they want to beat a team with OSU's talent moving forward.

Right on.

Right on.

Well, living in Traverse City

Well, living in Traverse City drinking is mandatory 7 days a week; however I no longer get drunk and have kept passing the cooking sherry around the campfire with Anthony Ciccone to a minimum as of late...

November 22nd 1963 to be

November 22nd 1963 to be exact, maybe they're cursed.

Eh...

Just heat of the moment stuff on the game thread I think, but when people were comparing this to Bellamy and Nebraska I kept thinking to myself he's a Top-300 guy, why can't he do something? He certainly worked himself into the conversation at QB moving forward...

It was a win/lose moment, in

It was a win/lose moment, in Big 2, Little 8 days a Michigan tie was a loss. This was the pre-overtime era, see Corso kicking the XP to tie with a minute left and then Bo going for it on 4th down from his own 29 seconds later, like mentioned above.

But aside from Ufer's call itself, this just never happened back then. Ufer said during his call  that he had broadcast 347 games and never had one like this. It was rare in college football and even more rare for Michigan, if they had to go to the air in the past they had always been pretty much doomed.

So I think that made this play much more special than it would be regarded as today when miracle plays seem to happen relatively often, it was just much more of a ground era then.

Last second plays were pretty

Last second plays were pretty rare in College back then, especially for Michigan who had real problems coming back if they had to back in the day. I think that made it all that much more shocking when they pulled this one off.

But as pissed as Corso was, he kind of deserved a little karma for kicking the XP to tie the game with a minute left (pre OT era); and then Bo turns around and goes for it on 4th and 1 on their own 29 when they got the ball back, which could have cost them the game if they hadn't made it. Bo was playing to win all the way, Corso played not to lose.

Same...

That exact same thing happened on I-96, was coming up on the Coopersville exit when the play happened and every single car on the highway had people with their fists out the window and honking their horns and it kept going for a few miles. I don't think I ever saw that before or since, I couldn't believe that everyone on the road apparently was listening to the game.

Yep

That's kind of where I land with this as well. I know its a touchy subject because you don't want the kids doing it to face an angry mob, but after 4chan and Oregon how does someone in Hackett's position assume that this time its not for real, or at least set the expectation that you can't tweet out stuff like that no matter how old you are?

This is...

This is kind of amazing to read this thread knowing how it turned out...

1971

1970 and then primarily 1971 were probably the most important Michigan defenses that I saw because they were very very rough.  Michigan was good in '69 and obviously OSU was insanely talented but the '70 and '71 Michigan defenses were pretty much violent in their hitting and that's what set the tone for the rest of the seventies, but I don't think any of the teams that followed ever hit quite as hard as that 1971 team.  I think OSU actually had to raise their level of physicality to match what they saw Michigan doing to teams in 1971.

That team

That team was very oddly detached from the results it seems. There should be a certain awareness of losing games badly that was just somehow missing, the booing should have been understood, even if they didn't appreciate it.

Zeppelin

I would love to hear them play Immigrant Song.

The Hoke's wearing off...

The Hoke's wearing off...

Bedford Park IL

Just off Midway's runways, I'd just finished giving the best presentation of my life to a bunch of bigwigs, about half of whom were from Manhattan as we had a location down there when a guy came in wheeling a TV. I walked outside to calm down a bit and I'll never forget the sheer number of planes coming into Chicago; it was like a superhighway of jets everywhere you looked, planes were coming into Midway what seemed like literally seconds apart.

But we had people in the Trade Towers every day and our site there was very close by, so when the first building went down we all knew we were watching friends and co-workers perish, to sit there and watch that with a number of people from Manhattan is one of those things that I will never forget, but wouldn't want to describe.

Still

Still felt a bit like Brady Hoke's Michigan watching tonight. There were signs of hope though, may take a few more games yet for the team to start being a true Harbaugh team. Waiting on Drake Johnson to get into game condition...

Too much...

Still too much iron poor blood at RB...need a shot of Drake Johnson.

Kerridge

Traverse City!

Just....

Just gonna take some time...