Warde Manuel is a glorified figurehead. He doesn't snap his fingers and make donors spend money. And he certainly can't tell them where and how to spend it.
His power is limited to the hiring and firing of coaches. Other than that his role is largely political.
My understanding - and maybe I'm wrong here - is that Seth's criticism (and others, like Alex Drain and Sam Webb) of Michigan's NIL approach is primarily (not solely) that they (i.e. donors) aren't doing enough to get high school recruits to come to Michigan. As in, they aren't giving the bag, to put it bluntly.
My point has been: 1) Michigan's NIL philosophy is sound, because 2) we've seen other programs burned by throwing money at recruits. The idea that if you come here and do well then the alumni (and fans) will take care of you is something most donors can get behind.
My greater point was that everything is legal in NIL now, so there is nothing stopping you from emptying your bank account to a recruit for a single autograph. I find it hypocritical when someone criticizes Michigan's NIL approach (regarding high school recruits) and then say they'd feel different if it was their money.
1. We all want Michigan to win. We all want Michigan to get the best recruits they possibly can. We all want a competent athletic department. No one is arguing against those things.
2. The problem with the meme is that the person saying "Things should be better" is actually suffering under the model and has no way out of it. That does not apply here.
3. "Fundraising for NIL." Again, and I will keep making this point, there is a difference between paying players already on the roster who have proven themselves and throwing money at unproven high schoolers. If you want the latter, then there is nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. Don't complain about how other people are spending their money.
4. Two things can be true at the same time. You can have a problem with the AD and also think Michigan's NIL approach is sound.
My bigger pushback is the ongoing narrative that UM is bad at NIL when, at worst, they have somewhat consistently been playing a longer-term game than a lot of other prominent programs, and I think that's been intentional and not because of negligence or ignorance, which at times has felt like the framing.
This is what I've been arguing. Michigan's approach to NIL makes more sense than to just throw money at high schoolers.
You've made your NIL stance pretty clear, actually.
You want rich donors to spend money on high school recruits, and then you complain when they aren't, in your opinion, spending enough. And then "lol I'd care more if it was my money!"
There is nothing stopping you from giving all your money to a recruit to come to Michigan. I'm sure they wouldn't turn it down.
Frankly I've been surprised that Seth's position on NIL hasn't gotten his credibility obliterated on this site. At least Brian is coming around and is showing some wariness of failed NIL money cannons.
1. This isn't about Warde Manuel. You're giving him way too much credit. He doesn't unilaterally decide how donors choose to spend their money. It's a bigger, more intricate system than just him. If anything he's kind of irrelevant. He's the face of the athletic department. That's it.
2. Football facilities are not "frivolous." They are, concretely, a more tangible investment to see a return. And at the end of the day, that and coaching staff is the best way to compete with the top programs in college football. If you think just throwing money at high schoolers gets you championships, you haven't been paying attention. There are too many counter-examples that have already been brought up and discussed.
3. "Spending money on the roster." There is a huge difference between paying your stars (Blake, JJ, etc.) -- which almost everyone is in favor of -- and paying high school kids who haven't done a damn thing.
I get the joke you're trying to make, but let's be serious about this.
Michigan's NIL philosophy makes a ton of sense: you come here, do well, and you'll be rewarded. Our fans will buy your merch. Hell, there's even a collective set up from the OL alumni to take care of the OL.
That's not what Seth has been advocating. He wants Michigan -- specifically, rich Michigan alumni -- to pay whatever it takes to bring the highest ranked recruits here. While having no skin in the game himself.
OSU fans gave Quinn Ewers a million dollars. He's now playing at Texas.
I don't think it's unreasonable that some (most?) of our alumni are wary of getting burned like that. It's better to try to keep the proven stars on the roster than to get into bidding wars / money schemes with high schoolers.
I wish Seth would listen to his own words when he's criticizing Michigan's NIL philosophy.
There is literally nothing stopping you from going to the highest five star recruit and emptying out your bank account for them to come to Michigan. Have them sign a napkin for it. But wait, you don't want to do that, do you? You'd rather spend other people's money.
It's not a Sherrone problem. It's a "We were at Michigan because of Jim" problem. Hard to retain guys whose main reason for being at a place was their friendship with Harbaugh.
Your statements of "this is simply not accurate" and "how it works in reality" is really just you saying, as one lawyer, "I disagree with your interpretation."
Well, that's your take. "I don't know if this really constitutes a material breach."
I've worked on several contracts over the course of my life. A material breach is when one party of the contract breaks the terms so explicitly that the other party can not in any way be reconciled. That's what happened here ... sigh, ok, at least in my opinion.
I brought this up elsewhere, but I have yet to hear one compelling reason why after this Michigan should stay in the Big Ten. Or how the Big Ten could force them to.
Numerous reports/rumblings that the regents are discussing/pushing for it. (Or at least some are.)
Whether Harbaugh coached today didn't matter, what mattered is the suspension was handled down at all. The developments today only added to it, making the possibility of leaving the conference higher than 90 percent.
There is simply no compelling reason for Michigan to stay after being treated like this.
Yes, until official announcements are made, everything is speculation. But that's why we throw around words like "likely."
Yes, Michigan can do this. As mgolawyer rym laid out, any suspension by the Big Ten commissioner in this case at this time is a material breach of Michigan's agreement with the Big Ten.
For those of you who have never worked on contracts, "material breach" means the contract instantly becomes null and void. No buyout required.
But no one is going to leave $150 million over 5 years on the table. Cooler heads will prevail.
Okay, opinion time: this is asinine. If you stay in the Big Ten you accept the precedent set by this Commissioner that he can suspend a coach anytime he wants for any reason. Michigan is better off leaving and becoming an independent. They'll have a deal with Fox almost immediately, and in an expanded playoff they'll be a big player.
No. There was some speculation that the judge would grant it in the early morning (ie after midnight) so it could carry over to the OSU game, but those theories have turned out to be wrong.
The judge could have made a ruling at any time, but apparently has decided that a later hearing will be better.
I was at the game in Lincoln (hence why this is posted on Monday) and there was a fair amount of shit talking by Husker fans to me. I personally don't like them and I think the "nicest fans" thing is a complete myth. Their fans are just like everyone else. Good ones and bad ones.
I appreciate how much they believe in their team.
Every team's fans believe in their team. Literally every one.
Again, I was at the game. Husker fans were emptying out before half time. Yeah, they showed up at the beginning for the sell out streak, but as soon as they went down 21-0, they were gone.
All you have to do is read any John U. Bacon book about the Bo days to know that when Bo showed up football admissions changed drastically. As in, it got easier, not harder.
If Bo wanted someone, the admissions dept made it happen.
These days I honestly don't know what's going on. Football players have always been held to a different standard. It's just the way it is. And it's not just that way here.
If Michigan waived an applicant's SAT scores, that's like 99 percent of where admissions and athletes find their hang ups. An absolutely huge act of goodwill.
Based on pure accomplishments alone, Cade has to be No. 2.
Taulia has the better numbers obviously, and the OSU QBs have higher recruiting stars (and weapons), but everybody be sleepin' on Cade for whatever reason.
I don't really get this notion that the NCAA is an "empty logo."
They do have power to impose sanctions. They're just inconsistent and hypocritical in going after alleged violations. They let certain schools get off with nothing while dropping the hammer down on others. And they willfully ignore certain aspects of college sports.
Recent Comments
Warde Manuel is a glorified figurehead. He doesn't snap his fingers and make donors spend money. And he certainly can't tell them where and how to spend it.
His power is limited to the hiring and firing of coaches. Other than that his role is largely political.
My understanding - and maybe I'm wrong here - is that Seth's criticism (and others, like Alex Drain and Sam Webb) of Michigan's NIL approach is primarily (not solely) that they (i.e. donors) aren't doing enough to get high school recruits to come to Michigan. As in, they aren't giving the bag, to put it bluntly.
My point has been: 1) Michigan's NIL philosophy is sound, because 2) we've seen other programs burned by throwing money at recruits. The idea that if you come here and do well then the alumni (and fans) will take care of you is something most donors can get behind.
My greater point was that everything is legal in NIL now, so there is nothing stopping you from emptying your bank account to a recruit for a single autograph. I find it hypocritical when someone criticizes Michigan's NIL approach (regarding high school recruits) and then say they'd feel different if it was their money.
Okay. I'm going to argue in good faith here.
1. We all want Michigan to win. We all want Michigan to get the best recruits they possibly can. We all want a competent athletic department. No one is arguing against those things.
2. The problem with the meme is that the person saying "Things should be better" is actually suffering under the model and has no way out of it. That does not apply here.
3. "Fundraising for NIL." Again, and I will keep making this point, there is a difference between paying players already on the roster who have proven themselves and throwing money at unproven high schoolers. If you want the latter, then there is nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. Don't complain about how other people are spending their money.
4. Two things can be true at the same time. You can have a problem with the AD and also think Michigan's NIL approach is sound.
What does this have to do with the NIL debate we're having?
This is what I've been arguing. Michigan's approach to NIL makes more sense than to just throw money at high schoolers.
What strawman? I quoted you.
This is something you've advocated for years and I guess many haven't challenged you on it.
You've made your NIL stance pretty clear, actually.
You want rich donors to spend money on high school recruits, and then you complain when they aren't, in your opinion, spending enough. And then "lol I'd care more if it was my money!"
There is nothing stopping you from giving all your money to a recruit to come to Michigan. I'm sure they wouldn't turn it down.
You'd be surprised. Maybe you should try before complaining.
Dude, then go give these high school recruits your money to come here. Seriously, what is stopping you? It's completely legal.
This bullshit of "I'm mad that rich donors aren't doing what I want" is beyond stupid. You sound like a third grader.
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I agree 100 percent.
Frankly I've been surprised that Seth's position on NIL hasn't gotten his credibility obliterated on this site. At least Brian is coming around and is showing some wariness of failed NIL money cannons.
Seth laughs and says it's not his money.
I know several Ohio State fans who personally donated money to get Quinn Ewers. They haven't gotten any of it back.
Again, if you think it's so easy, just give a high school recruit your whole bank account for a signed napkin. There's nothing stopping you.
1. This isn't about Warde Manuel. You're giving him way too much credit. He doesn't unilaterally decide how donors choose to spend their money. It's a bigger, more intricate system than just him. If anything he's kind of irrelevant. He's the face of the athletic department. That's it.
2. Football facilities are not "frivolous." They are, concretely, a more tangible investment to see a return. And at the end of the day, that and coaching staff is the best way to compete with the top programs in college football. If you think just throwing money at high schoolers gets you championships, you haven't been paying attention. There are too many counter-examples that have already been brought up and discussed.
3. "Spending money on the roster." There is a huge difference between paying your stars (Blake, JJ, etc.) -- which almost everyone is in favor of -- and paying high school kids who haven't done a damn thing.
I get the joke you're trying to make, but let's be serious about this.
Michigan's NIL philosophy makes a ton of sense: you come here, do well, and you'll be rewarded. Our fans will buy your merch. Hell, there's even a collective set up from the OL alumni to take care of the OL.
That's not what Seth has been advocating. He wants Michigan -- specifically, rich Michigan alumni -- to pay whatever it takes to bring the highest ranked recruits here. While having no skin in the game himself.
OSU fans gave Quinn Ewers a million dollars. He's now playing at Texas.
I don't think it's unreasonable that some (most?) of our alumni are wary of getting burned like that. It's better to try to keep the proven stars on the roster than to get into bidding wars / money schemes with high schoolers.
Seth on NIL: "I'd care more if it was my money."
I wish Seth would listen to his own words when he's criticizing Michigan's NIL philosophy.
There is literally nothing stopping you from going to the highest five star recruit and emptying out your bank account for them to come to Michigan. Have them sign a napkin for it. But wait, you don't want to do that, do you? You'd rather spend other people's money.
The NBC broadcast in 2011 of ND vs USF with Dan Hicks & Mike Mayock calling is God-tier schadenfreude.
"throws to the endzone, INCOMPLETE. ......but wait, touchdown..."
a classic
Karsch always sounds like he just came back from screaming his lungs out at a rock concert.
Surprised Noah Eagle isn't out. That guy's voice gets almost whiny when there's a big play.
[Edit: Fwiw I thought Jac Collinsworth was fine.]
"the Giants were 23rd and 30th in DVOA in the two seasons since, so the shine's come off"
Try to contain your enthusiasm.
It's not a Sherrone problem. It's a "We were at Michigan because of Jim" problem. Hard to retain guys whose main reason for being at a place was their friendship with Harbaugh.
All this has proven is that the coaches were here because of Harbaugh, not Michigan.
Is saying "I'm staying at Michigan" really stealing the spotlight?
It's maybe news for five minutes and then everyone moves on.
If anything, NOT clarifying where he's going is making news and taking attention away from Sherrone.
If we lose Herbert, it's fist-in-wall time.
Doesn't Michigan have both an indoor practice field (turf) and an outdoor one (grass)? I thought they did.
Wait, you're the newest Sparty? Holy misplaced modifiers, Batman!
Lawyers disagree all the time.
Your statements of "this is simply not accurate" and "how it works in reality" is really just you saying, as one lawyer, "I disagree with your interpretation."
Fair point.
Well, that's your take. "I don't know if this really constitutes a material breach."
I've worked on several contracts over the course of my life. A material breach is when one party of the contract breaks the terms so explicitly that the other party can not in any way be reconciled. That's what happened here ... sigh, ok, at least in my opinion.
I brought this up elsewhere, but I have yet to hear one compelling reason why after this Michigan should stay in the Big Ten. Or how the Big Ten could force them to.
If Michigan joins another conference, who's to say the same thing won't happen again?
In my view, independent is the only way to go. Screw whether we draw the bye.
You don't need to be in the Big Ten to play Ohio State and Michigan State.
Notre Dame plays their rivals without being in a conference.
Now, if they refuse to play Michigan, that's a different story...
Numerous reports/rumblings that the regents are discussing/pushing for it. (Or at least some are.)
Whether Harbaugh coached today didn't matter, what mattered is the suspension was handled down at all. The developments today only added to it, making the possibility of leaving the conference higher than 90 percent.
There is simply no compelling reason for Michigan to stay after being treated like this.
Yes, until official announcements are made, everything is speculation. But that's why we throw around words like "likely."
No. Michigan's days working with the Big Ten are over.
Yes, Michigan can do this. As mgolawyer rym laid out, any suspension by the Big Ten commissioner in this case at this time is a material breach of Michigan's agreement with the Big Ten.
For those of you who have never worked on contracts, "material breach" means the contract instantly becomes null and void. No buyout required.
Okay, opinion time: this is asinine. If you stay in the Big Ten you accept the precedent set by this Commissioner that he can suspend a coach anytime he wants for any reason. Michigan is better off leaving and becoming an independent. They'll have a deal with Fox almost immediately, and in an expanded playoff they'll be a big player.
No. There was some speculation that the judge would grant it in the early morning (ie after midnight) so it could carry over to the OSU game, but those theories have turned out to be wrong.
The judge could have made a ruling at any time, but apparently has decided that a later hearing will be better.
Regents already discussing it. It's not opinion.
Oh, dayum!
"at least boil them down to some choice cuts"
Wait, you wanted less? I feel like if I did that people would be responding, "That's it??"
Ah, yes. The classic "why do we care" comment.
Excuse me if I find Spartans bitching during & after we destroy them to be hilarious.
I…
I was at the game in Lincoln (hence why this is posted on Monday) and there was a fair amount of shit talking by Husker fans to me. I personally don't like them and I think the "nicest fans" thing is a complete myth. Their fans are just like everyone else. Good ones and bad ones.
Every team's fans believe in their team. Literally every one.
Again, I was at the game. Husker fans were emptying out before half time. Yeah, they showed up at the beginning for the sell out streak, but as soon as they went down 21-0, they were gone.
All you have to do is read any John U. Bacon book about the Bo days to know that when Bo showed up football admissions changed drastically. As in, it got easier, not harder.
If Bo wanted someone, the admissions dept made it happen.
These days I honestly don't know what's going on. Football players have always been held to a different standard. It's just the way it is. And it's not just that way here.
If Michigan waived an applicant's SAT scores, that's like 99 percent of where admissions and athletes find their hang ups. An absolutely huge act of goodwill.
Sigh... the Rich Rod people again.
Roy Roundtree in the OSU games: Am I a joke to you?
Thorne originally committed to WMU then switched to MSU. But yeah, he didn't actually start at WMU - though he probably would have.
Still, an inaccurate note by the OP.
EDIT: And it's egregiously inaccurate. WMU isn't even Power 5.
Based on pure accomplishments alone, Cade has to be No. 2.
Taulia has the better numbers obviously, and the OSU QBs have higher recruiting stars (and weapons), but everybody be sleepin' on Cade for whatever reason.
Agreed. Jeff Sims is sneaky good. I watched him at Georgia Tech. He reminds me a lot of Devin Gardner.
I don't really get this notion that the NCAA is an "empty logo."
They do have power to impose sanctions. They're just inconsistent and hypocritical in going after alleged violations. They let certain schools get off with nothing while dropping the hammer down on others. And they willfully ignore certain aspects of college sports.
But powerless they're not, I think.
They can impose bowl bans and take away scholarships, and they can vacate wins.
Do you…
Question for Seth:
Do you actually send these proposals to the Big Ten, or do you just post them here and hope somebody from their office reads them?
^ This x 1,000,000 ^