This is like trying to get over an ex
On the bright side, interesting
xkcd / Hoke pointing at xkcd
This morning His Dudeness posted a throwaway discussion topic for the board comparing Rodriguez's 2009 recruiting to Hoke's 2012. This was taken by some as an attempt to reopen 2008-'10 wounds but really it's another "how many ways can we talk about how awesome our 2012 recruiting is going?" (So so awesome). Anyway this started as a reply to that thread and ended up at 2,000 words plus charts. Hi, I'm Misopogon, have we met?
It's been almost 200 days since Hoke took the job. That's not much to go on when trying to judge a coach. Basically there's 1) his previous resume, 2) the process of how he was hired, 3) how he built his staff, 4) how he integrates into the program, and then 5) a few months of recruiting. I literally wrote up the first four then figured what the hell would we want to go over that again, so let's skip right to recruiting.
Rodriguez additions to Class of '08:
|Name||Pos||State||Stars||RR||Pos Rk||Nat Rk||State Rk||Recruited By|
|Michael Shaw||RB||OH||4 stars||5.9||7||NR||6|
|Taylor Hill||LB||OH||4 stars||5.8||21||NR||16|
|Terrence Robinson||RB||TX||4 stars||5.8||9||NR||34|
|Ricky Barnum||OL||FL||4 stars||5.8||5||NR||37|
|Roy Roundtree||WR||OH||4 stars||5.8||44||NR||17||Bruce Tall|
|Justin Feagin||ATH||FL||3 stars||5.7||41||NR||71|
|Martavious Odoms||WR||FL||3 stars||5.7||71||NR||77||Rod Smith|
|Patrick Omameh||DE||OH||2 stars||5.1||NR||NR||NR||Bruce Tall|
Hoke additions to Class of '11:
|Name||Pos||State||Stars||RR||Pos Rk||Nat Rk||State Rk||Recruited By|
|Chris Barnett||TE||TX||4 stars||5.8||14||NR||32||Jeff Hecklinski|
|Raymon Taylor||ATH||MI||4 stars||5.8||14||NR||6|
|Antonio Poole||LB||OH||3 stars||5.7||26||NR||20||Mark Smith|
|Frank Clark||LB||OH||3 stars||5.6||NR||NR||52|
|Thomas Rawls||RB||MI||3 stars||5.6||NR||NR||19||Fred Jackson|
|Russell Bellomy||QB||TX||3 stars||5.5||NR||NR||NR|
|Tamani Carter||DB||OH||3 stars||5.5||NR||NR||60||Mark Smith|
|Keith Heitzman||DE||OH||3 stars||5.5||NR||NR||NR||Greg Mattison, Mark Smith|
|Matt Wile||K||CA||2 stars||5.3||NR||NR||NR|
This is unfair to judge the coaches against each other. Rodriguez was hired in November and was taking over a Citrus-bound program with a retiring Hall of Fame coach, while Hoke was hired in the middle of January after a blowout Gator loss and following a fired guy. Rodriguez had less time than would have been optimal given the depth of his transition, but it was no more of a transition than Hoke face, and RR got a good two months, including the all-important December period, to bring the current class home.
The recruiting is reflected in that. Other than bringing Hill from W.Va., Rodriguez mostly grabbed guys to fit his offensive system. Shaw's a speed-back, T-Rob, Roundtree and Odoms were slot receivers, Barnum and Omameh were the kind of agile offensive linemen who fit best in zone blocking, and Feagin was a last-minute consolation prize when Pryor decided he'd get more out of attending Ohio State. Hoke on the other hand found a handful of Michigan and Ohio State Sad Joshes (Clark, Carter, Heitzman, Rawls, Poole, Bellomy and Taylor), at positions of great need, replaced the kicker lost in the transition, yanked the requisite Purdue recruit (Bellomy) to ensure Danny Hope stays petty, and pulled in a last-minute coup on a national tight end.
Both did okay, not fantastic. Hoke got a kicker back, which was a big deal, but needed to flip someone's 5.9+ OT and pick up another good-to-great linebacker to avoid scary depths at that positions starting in 2012; RR's failure to get more help at defensive back (Carr had Brandon Smith, J.T. Floyd, and Cissoko) would haunt him the rest of his Michigan career (nobody planned on losing 2/4 LBs by next summer). Oh, and, ahem, quarterback.
Rodriguez 2009 recruits as of July 26, 2008:
|William Campbell||DT||MI||5 stars||6.1||Oct. 2007||5||26||1||(Carr's staff)|
|Justin Turner||DB||OH||4 stars||6.0||Mar 28||3||35||1||Bruce Tall|
|Bryce McNeal||WR||MN||4 stars||6.0||May 1||10||75||1||Tony Dews|
|Kevin Newsome||QB||VA||4 stars||5.9||Apr 24||4||163||9||Fred Jackson|
|Jeremy Gallon||ATH||FL||4 stars||5.9||Jun 05||11||NR||31||Rod Smith|
|DeQuinta Jones||DT||LA||4 stars||5.8||Jul 21||NR||NR||10||Jay Hopson|
|Shavodrick Beaver||QB||TX||4 stars||5.8||Apr 29||8||206||24||Rod Smith|
|Fitz Toussaint||RB||OH||4 stars||5.8||Apr 18||8||NR||14||Tony Gibson|
|Michael Schofield||OL||IL||4 stars||5.8||Jun 16||18||NR||6||Scott Shafer|
|Teric Jones||RB||MI||3 stars||5.7||Mar 29||37||NR||12||Tony Dews|
|Isaiah Bell||LB||OH||3 stars||5.7||Mar 31||26||NR||27||Tony Gibson|
Hoke 2012 recruits as of July 26, 2011:
|Kyle Kalis||OL||OH||4 stars||6.0||Jul 10||4||18||1||Greg Mattison|
|Royce Jenkins-Stone||LB||MI||4 stars||5.9||Apr 16||7||87||1||Fred Jackson|
|Erik Magnuson||OL||CA||4 stars||5.9||Jun 10||8||34||6||Dan Ferrigno|
|Blake Bars||OL||TN||4 stars||5.8||Jun 26||34||NR||6||Mark Smith|
|Joe Bolden||LB||OH||4 stars||5.8||Apr 29||16||NR||11||Greg Mattison|
|Pharaoh Brown||DE||OH||4 stars||5.8||May 07||20||NR||17||Greg Mattison|
|Terry Richardson||DB||MI||4 stars||5.8||May 19||18||NR||4||Greg Mattison|
|James Ross||LB||MI||4 stars||5.8||May 2||4||NR||3||Fred Jackson|
|Tom Strobel||DE||OH||4 stars||5.8||Jun 10||18||NR||14||Greg Mattison|
|Jarrod Wilson||DB||OH||4 stars||5.8||Jul 8||NR||NR||NR||Greg Mattison|
|Ben Braden||OL||MI||3 stars||5.7||Mar 24||59||NR||9||Greg Mattison|
|Devin Funchess||TE||MI||3 stars||5.7||Apr 22||17||NR||6||Fred Jackson|
|Allen Gant||DB||OH||3 stars||5.7||May 31||22||NR||29||Al Borges|
|Matthew Godin||DT||MI||3 stars||5.7||May 12||27||NR||7||Fred Jackson|
|Kaleb Ringer||LB||OH||3 stars||5.7||Apr 12||11||NR||25||Mark Smith|
|Caleb Stacey||OL||OH||3 stars||5.7||Mar 26||12||NR||22||Mark Smith|
|Anthony Standifer||DB||IL||3 stars||5.7||Jun 01||37||NR||14||Jeff Hecklinski|
|A.J. Williams||TE||OH||3 stars||5.7||Apr 22||16||NR||28||Mark Smith|
|Mario Ojemudia||DE||MI||3 stars||5.6||May 7||NR||NR||14||Fred Jackson|
|Jeremy Clark#||DB||KY||3 stars||5.5||Jun 24||NR||NR||6||(Camp offer)|
|Sione Houma||RB||UT||0 stars||NR||Jul 25||NR||NR||NR||Dan Ferrigno|
# = entering as grayshirt
By the way those are end-of-cycle rankings so it's not an exact match, e.g. Newsome was at one point rated the 20th player in the country by Rivals and was around 40-something by mid-summer. For our purposes it gets the point across: RR had some great gifts for the tree had they hung on, but still needed a lot of stocking stuffers.
Both coaches worked quickly to over-address positions of the greatest whiffs in years previous. Rodriguez got two of the top QBs in the country signed on, and had 5-stars or near enough at cornerback and DT. To the groans of smurf-haters everywhere, RR also had secured two more scat-backs and another (highly rated) slot receiver. Schofield was considered a good system OT; Isaiah Bell was a S/LB sleeper adored by one Ohio site but not the national scouts. Hoke meanwhile has killed, already having secured five OL commitments, three of whom are already past the "just a 4-star" threshold, and also swept the region in LB recruits, faring almost as well in DEs. Hoke's clearly got the advantage.
You'll note a lot of the 2008 haul never made it to campus. The 3-9 year was partly to blame of course, however as of late July 2008 many of RR's guys were soft. Will Campbell (right) committed to Carr in the middle of his junior (2007) year and remained a softie; he eventually de-committed in September only to re-up after a long and pulmonarily destructive flirtation with SEC schools. Bryce committed but looking around; he lost interest in October, presumably after many sleepless nights spent thinking of Nick Sheridan passing to him. Newsome was entertaining a camp visit at Virginia Tech this time three years ago, but turned it down and sounded like he was rock. He and Beaver gave up around the same time (right after you mentally gave up on the 2008 offense) and were immediately replaced by Tate and the hard pursuit of some supersonic kid in Florida who Urban wanted badly and nobody thought was a QB.
And then there's DeQuinta Jones, a 4-star DT from Louisiana who just kind of randomly pretended to commit to M without visiting, kind of the way that my buddy once announced that he was in love with the hottest girl in camp, whom we will call L.H.*, so that other girls in camp would take him more seriously. If this seems at all weird to you welcome to the wild and wacky world of Louisiana recruiting; bring a funny hat. The DeQuinta/LH gambit worked surprisingly well in both cases, except not for the faux commit-ee.
If you take away the guys who de-committed from RR's 2009 class it looks more like this…
…and it's Hoke like whoa. A bad year in 2011 and maybe his class starts falling apart as well, but it is important to note that nobody on that list above is considered soft except the grayshirted Jeremy Clark** if he gets something better than high-ish MAC offers, whereas that label applied to half of RR's first full class by July.
Stick their late additions to the hybrid class with their first-year recruiting by July and you get:
Not hugely dissimilar except that Hoke's got a lot more 3-stars and is missing four blue chips. In a worst case scenario the 2011 team starts losing while Ohio State's dancing along having gotten off virtually scot-free from the most obvious case of Failure to Monitor and Lack of Institutional Control I've ever witnessed in 20 years of college football fandom, and Hoke's Goodwill Ride of 2011 comes to a crashing, sudden stop.
Brian penned a State of Recruiting article in early August '08 that's worth a look-back so you can remember your comparable state of mind. How does that compare to now? And I didn't even make you compare "Denard: The Upperclassman Years" to "gee I hope this Sheridan guy really is a Basanez."
* Fellow period Tamakwans will agree that this wasn't debatable. Maaaybe a few votes for E.C. or L.S.
** He'll get a YMRMFSPA Charles Stewart if he makes it, but the Phillip Brackins comparison is so go, unless we decide you can all remember Eric Rosel.
This is like trying to get over an ex
On the bright side, interesting
Wow, MgoBlog has officially jumped the shark.
It was a really really small issue that was made into a very long post. But having sad that, there have been many other front page posts based upon things as small. And it did have info and pretty charts. Just because dudeness started it in a thread doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth writing about does it? (I'm anticipating a yes reply) Plus. Misopogon has much equity, he can live forever off of the credibility and goodness of the decimated defense series as far as I'm concerned.
Dudeness makes me want to push the minimum point total to 12000 to create a thread. Clearly the higher point totals on this blog don't always lend way to higher levels of credibility. Isn't there an I *heart* RR site where people with like mindset could post fading memories of a Big East Championship?
Dudeness has been colored by his most recent posts/rants/raves, which may or may not be valid. But to call him unintelligent is both incorrect and inappropriate. Until recently, he was always one of the most consistently competent posters out of all us jokers.
And to your point, the person(s) that brought this guy to Ann Arbor is(are) okay in my book. The rest is just water under the bridge.
ESPN_BigTen: RT @wilnerhotline: Scott said he called NCAA prez Emmert after tOSU news last week; Emmert told him "misperception in media about finality"
Please be so.
I think I figured out why they negged you to oblivion. It's not that you address disagreement with members of the site; it's that you're a douche about it. Know your target audience Butterfield.
Dudeness raises interesting points, but he's a massive troll about it. There's just no getting around that our class is very good right now, and will end up very good as well. Rodriguez's first class was also very good, so I won't be offended if this class is of that calibur. Why it is a fighting point I have no idea. Rodriguez didn't get canned because of his recruiting.
Edit: And I'm not sure what purpose tailoring our excitement about it will do.
Eh. Once he hears OSU got off without a failure to monitor we figure we can sneak out under the flying detritus.
the flying pieces of his exploded head?
With things like "underlings", but the point of the post stands- the fact that instead of mods banning the worst case of consistent, unending, one note trolling in the board's history, but using it for inspiration, is a horrifying commentary on the state of the mindset of the blog.
Though I don't think Brian would be that put out, because he probably agrees with Dudeness's insane ramblings.
I guess Brian could "fire" anyone he wanted, but using derogatory terms (and not totally true - MGoBlog, which is more of a partnership and help venture...Tim meshed his site with Brian's; guys like Misopogon do it on the side more for the love than the riches, that's for sure) just undercuts your point, which I thought was spot on...because once you're a dick, that's all people are going to hear...the dicky part. I mean, in posting you CAN just say those things...but if you're not typing just to hear yourself "speak", and want someone to listen, it's probably best to tone it down. Or you become Dudeness....who once made interesting points, but no one would even listen anymore if he did. Well, other than Misopogon, apparently.
And yes, I'm probably speaking from experience...not juggling boulders in glass houses. And I've probably paid the "price" that there are those who won't even "listen" to what I say. Or at least less so than guys like MGoShoe and Blue in South Bend, Don, etc., who have viewpoints, but better self-control, and a lower snark level, and are more widely respected for it.
I guess I'm saying I like what you have to say a lot of the time...but the way you say it, I can see why some people get turned off by the delivery of the message.
One of the biggest things I took away from one of the best public speakers I've had the privilege to know was that the packaging of the message you're trying to deliver is just as important, if not more so in some ways, than the content.
This is true. I teach public speaking and I always tell my students that having a point is great, but how you say things is just as important as what you say.
You have to give credit to Hoke for bringing in such a top-notch recruiting class so far despite the way the last three years have gone and the fact that he had to re-build many relationships with Midwest high school coaches. The thing that has impressed me the most about Hoke so far is that everyone speaks so glowingly about him. He is about as real as it gets.
Rich was really down to earth, and a straight shooter.
That said, I have met Coach Hoke, and his staff (I never met Rich and his staff). They seem like straight forward, confident, good guys. Mark Smith (the linebackers coach) did a great job of skills coaching (my son was in the linebackers group for youth position camp). He was able to get through to the middle schoolers, why the little things were important. Greg Mattison is a great speaker - he is motivational and comes across very confident. In a camp of a few hundred kids, Coach Hoke was able to remember my son after meeting him once for a picture.
Coach Hoke does have an advantage that he is from the Midwest, and therefore is more accepted in the Midwest. And being from the Midwest, in the fall they ought to be better at winning in the Big Ten, because they know what it takes to do so.
However, even Coach Hoke says "I haven't won a game yet" when he speaks (I like the self-deprecation). So we'll see. Recruiting is going really well. (Al Borges told me so himself.) Now lets see how coaching, and leadership goes. Particularly on the field.
FWIW, if you have a middle schooler who plays football, the youth camp was great. (A bit of history: the current format was put in place by Rich Rodriguez's staff.) I looked at several youth camp options, and most (including all of my local choices) included elementary and middle school aged kids, and were more general in nature. The Michigan camp was only middle schoolers, and focused on position group specific skills. Plus you get access to the practice facilities (we were in Glick), and the Big House.
The bare cupboard.
This is way too broad a subject. We need to compare day by day and see who comes out on top, it's the only proper way to go about it.
I did some quick calculations and graphs, would post them, but I'm to ignant to embed on the new system. In a nutshell, as of day 200 it is Hoke 147 RR 53.
Can I see your charts?
I'd like to recalculate a bit so we can have that score down to three decimal points. Question: did you include 247's natonal rankings in your calculations? And where oh where did you get good data on the teams' fiber intake from year to year under each coach: Fremeau Nutritional Watch unfortunately only goes back to 2009.
I appreciate the article. I wasn't reading this blog in 2008 so my recruiting knowledge was non-existant. Thank you!
I think the hate comes from the fact that certain moderators of this site seem to be pretty liberal with their veiled and sarcastic pot-shots at Hoke. If you look closely at this write-up you will see quite a few of them.
"Hoke meanwhile has killed, already having secured five OL commitments, three of whom are already past the "just a 4-star" threshold, and also swept the region in LB recruits, faring almost as well in DEs. Hoke's clearly got the advantage."
I am not really getting an anti-Hoke vibe from this.
"If you look closely at this write-up you will see quite a few of them."
Not seeing them, Yoop.
For the record, I don't really see any shots at Hoke either.
Also, I'm assuming everybody knows their way around the interwebs. If people don't enjoy this site, there's always Maize and Brew, Touch The Banner, The Wolverine Blog, WLA, etc.
They all provide roughly the same amount of news information if that's what you're looking for. Scout and Rivals have message boards is you're lookiing for that. There are other options if you think Mgoblog is pro Rich Rodriguez (I see it as more like not against Rodriguez/everybody is sad about the defense) and anti Hoke (which was true during the coaching search, but not anymore)
I ain't a hatin', just poking a little fun at Mr. Misopogon. I thought he did this post half in jest, so I just played along. But in all honesty, I did take the time to crunch the numbers
I like the new term they started on Maize and Brew... Math Ball, that shit cracks me up.
It's like Brady Hoke is Foghorn Leghorn,and Brian is the little genius kid who figures out the best way too play sports with a few advanced mathematical formulas, and the little fella outdoes old Foghorn at every turn.
I tawt I taw the quarterback under center
I'm glad someone noticed. Believe me, I'm familiar with the tenor of His Dudeness posts. What I dont' get is why it pisses anybody off. The guy was an RR fan. He had his reasons. Other guys are just happy the program's back to normal and the "factions" have been united again under the Plantagenets. They have good reasons for this too. Section 1 hates the Free Press. Bouje hates how his voice cracks. McFarlin and BlueFront and Everybody steals, murders, trolls on you, trolls on me.
Frankly, I was more concerned about His Dudeness being pissed at me for Summer Glau-ing his silly post in the first place. To summarize:
Dudeness: Look, RR's early recruiting efforts were better than Hoke's
Me: Yeah, if you count half the class being "soft" commits, including a dude who probably only heard about Michigan this one time in a magazine.
If you'd rather see Dudeness utterly taken down by a point-counterpoint, follow the link then follow the thread until you get to chitown. Really, watching that guy work a board is like watching Batman work Gotham city. POW! BAP! SCHWANG!
I would never be pissed about intelligent discourse. It is what makes this country and its people great, or at least it used to be. I for one thank you for this.
The problem with His Dudeness is not that he was an RR fan. Many of us were at one time or another. The problem is that he's still obsessed with the guy months after he's been fired, like a jealous ex-girlfriend.
and thought it would piss some people off this morning
I am just going to continue doing whatever the fuck I feel like doing
And go fuck yourself. your brain is small.
If I had an approach to comment on a blog I would probably just end it all.
The rest of your post is most likely equally stupid. Sorry I didn't make it past the first line.
So when you are watching and cheering the team this year just remember that any coach or kid who signed on at this university should be respected.
The last (my bold) mainly because he actually criticizes someone for "irony" just above it.
...and I just wrote a 2,000-word fisk of his post, and the other guy doing the flaming today just ripped my fisk THAT AGREES WITH HIS SENTIMENT in douche-y fashion and I'm trying not to be the guy (again - because I've been that guy before) who just sends people I argue with to Bolivia.
For the record those comments are way out of line. I still think the original post was worth a fisking, because the idea that RR's early recruiting is as good as Hoke's is seriously wrong but not so easily proved.
"why does anyone disagree with his posts?" You've just shown why, and with pretty charts. And even if they do, that's fine, because that's why there are comments to posts. You asked "what I dont' get is why it pisses anybody off." And that's why. Because he trolls his way to his points and message. No one hates him for being contrary. (Maybe being CONSTANTLY contrary).
And that other guy is being told to stop being a dick. It's not as overwhelming because he's reflecting the sentiment of the readers to the tenor of recent front page posts, and because his arguments don't sound like the addled workings of a lobotomized ADD 1 year old chimpanzee....they just have an unnecessary ass-y-ness thrown into them. (And he is at -27, while the other guy is back up to 11000+ and posting threads....)
I like Robert Fisk, he is a likeable old curmudgeon. Had to google "Fisking" to find out where the term came from, and was pleasantly surprised to see it named after Fisky.
Hoke won't go 3-9, so this class will probably pan out a bit better than 2008.
Thanks Misopogon. Very well put and with charts(!). I like how you knew deep in your brain that I wasn't just trolling. I honestly think RR gets a bad rap and the Hoke love boner is just a tad over the top. That was my point. I get the "we have something to get excited about so let's get excited!!" idea, but I just think if we temper our expectations a bit then we will allow for this coach to have the time needed to eventually have success.
So I can't like stuff now? Interesting...
No, by all means, "like stuff." It's easier to know that it's terrible when you do.
Being you must be amazing.
Now, like Hoke, you're starting to get it.
JBE: Where Amazing Happens Every Second of Every Day.
His Dudeness: Where RR Gets Continuously, Healthily Blown By Some Internet Identity Who Doesn't Realize It's Over And That It's Time To Move On.
P.S. Don't you think Gallon is smaller than a prototypical NFL reciever?
Not particularly funny, but amazing just the same.
I thought it was pretty funny actually.
And I really would like to hear your actual opinion (I can't believe I just wrote that) of Gallon's size relative to NFL receivers.
Standing in the blue corner...standing at 5'9", weighing 150 lbs, the raining troll champion of the world...HIS DUDENESS!
And in the red corner...standing at 5'4, 180 lbs, the up and comer...BUTTERFIELD!
Ladies and gentlemen, the internet fight of the century is about to go down after this commercial break.
Dudeness, I think your point was valid to an extent, but what's the point? Hoke is the coach now, and Hoke has a top class. Why can't we be happy for Hoke without constantly being reminded about how Rodriguez gets chastized for things that had nothing to do with his firing? Richrod doesn't need our defense. He has a new job at CBS sports and what people say about him is of no consequence.
The problem is that in writing text, it is hard to make sure of someones intent. It is very difficult to read sarcasm or other subtile language shifts. Your posts often come off very negative, I really want Hoke to succeed and I am excited about what he has done so far. If you are wanting to bring a bit of realisim to our fanbase expectations, you might try to be a bit kinder/gentler Dude. I looked at the thread yesterday and got a bit honked off and then read what Summer Glau has written here and thought it was great.
I guess I'm an official Dudeness sympathizer . . . I think every Michigan fan can use a dose of tempered expectations. If the past 3 years have taught us anything, it should be that Michigan football is not the untouchable program that people were lulled into believing. I was the worst of the bunch - I grew up never knowing a losing season or missing a bowl bid. That's just not realistic. But that's not the 21st century reality. And its time that we all remember that fact and avoid falling into the "entitlement" trap again. That is how I take all of Dudeness's posts, anyway. To me, they are useful for that reason alone.
I hear you, but you may not (or may?) have the history behind the man that is Dudeness. I see that you're a fairly new member. Dudeness has been posting for a much longer time than you (e.g. he's before your time) and has always been a very competent poster. The "CC" discussions from late 2010 were enough to drive anyone crazy and it appears as though it did for Dudeness. But you don't have that history and thus are not able to sympathize. I however, lived and breathed it (was in the trenches with him).
Also, what was fun for you about the past 3 years (other than Denard)?? You think crashing expectations are fun? Well, sir, then you must also enjoy poking hot needles in your eyes! This has not been my idea of fun.
The hate for Misopogon's posts...? He not only gives great posts but his posts are long, self-explanatory, and IMO extraordinary. Keep on Keepin' on
I think I wasn't clear on first post what the point of this was. If people missed the Summer Glau reference, the whole thing doesn't make any sense.
I don't think I'm alone here when I say I don't have the slightest clue what Summer Glau is/was.
edit: nevermind, unless it's something more than the image at the beginning of the post.