+1 Sir, +1. This is exactly why he was fired. It is unbelievable to me that people blame a fucking newspaper and other rediculous reasons for most of his failures.
fair point that
Notes from Brady Hoke's meeting with the media today. Photo from file.
Ray Vinopal is no longer with the team. "Ray decided to go back Youngstown. You know, that issue's more a family issue."
Injuries: Christian Pace is doing individual drills only. "Molk's the other guy who hasn't done anything but some individual He'll be fine by Tuesday" - hamstring tweak. Troy Woolfolk is doing a little group work, mostly individual. JT Floyd doing less group stuff than Troy. Mike Shaw is doing alternate conditioning things. Next week, he'll do more with the cast on. "I think we're OK health-wise. I don't think we're anything of real significance yet."
"We wouldn't play a game" for the spring 'game' with the team's current injury level. Would do more situational scrimmage-type stuff. With only 11 more practice days, "I doubt if we'll play a game game. I'd like to, but we don't have enough depth."
No new position changes. There may be some later in the spring when they've had more of a chance to evaluate.
During the spring, "we'll put [a depth chart] out. Nothing's given. You're gonna have to earn it." If you end spring as a starter, you better keep working over the summer, and in fall camp, because you have to earn your job.
Wants to install 50-60% of offense and defense in spring (Al Borges would like to get 65% of the offense in). You can install more in the fall as you're gameplanning. "Once we get the power play down, then we'll go to the next phase. You know, because we're gonna run the power play." [ed: This is a very MANBALL quote.]
QBs: "I think both of them have done a good job. I think you look at, the different things are a little more under center, obviously. The ball mechanics and footwork... all those technical things that go along with it. So, I think they've both done a good job, they're both very capable of being tremendous quarterbacks in this offense."
RBs: "I wouldn't wanna say any of them's any better than the other ones. Vince [Smith] has done a good job, [Stephen] Hopkins has come on, Fitz [Toussaint] had a good day in there with a couple good runs, and Michael Cox is a guy that has some outstanding ability, and we've just gotta keep progressing with him."
Fullbacks: "We don't have a lot of fullbacks." Hopkins works out well at FB "for a lot of the old 49ers stuff" with split backs. Hoke wants fullbacks to block so hard they "come in at about 6-3, and leave the program at 6-1." Wisconsin fullbacks get shorter as the years go on.
WRs: "They have to do both" block and catch. They have the most bodies there and at safety. Lots of competition, so guys they have to block well and catch well to see the field.
Lines: "We just don't have a whole lot of bodies there... That's always, up there, because you need a lot of bodies on both sides." They need to address it in future recruiting. With Molk and Pace out, Rocko Khoury is getting most snaps at center. Patrick Omameh is getting a lot of reps with limited line depth.
Defensive line: "There's some guys who have played some significant minutes and downs up there that we've gotta get 'em better when you talk about the fundamentals of playing the position." Quinton Washington ("he shows up") and Richard Ash ("has made some progress") are doing well, you expect the 2 seniors to step up. "I think Will [Campbell] had some real good plays the other day, and he's gotta have more of those than bad plays."
Kicking game: "They're doing OK. We haven't gone full-bore into it... They have their specialists but we put a little live rush on them and those kinds of things yesterday." All the different elements (snap, hold, kick) need to come together.
There have been three practices so far, one in pads. "I've liked the tempo that we played with. I like how the guys are flying around to some extent. We've still got a lot that we've gotta get better at, and playing fanatical as a team."
"We're not playing as fast as we will" due to the nature of learning. Still pleased with the competition level. Guys come in wanting to improve every day.
How to cultivate a competitive atmosphere: "You do that by rewarding guys who play well, and guys who don't play as well, you maybe don't get as many snaps." In their situational drills (red zone, etc.), "There's consequences for losing." There is competition within positions and also offense v defense.
Smooth transition for Denard? "I think so." He sometimes has issues with rushing the footwork, but both QBs have handled it really well. Once in a while, Denard shows off those feet. "If you leave a little crease in there, he can go get it."
How have players responded to practice intensity?: "They haven't come to see me about it. I guess it's been OK."
Any spring surprises? "Not yet. I think it's way too early to make any comment, to be honest with you. We're just really scratching the surface, in my opinion." General thoughts: "I think there's a little more, I think good and bad... You want to see some guys be a little more physical and a little more sudden in some of the things they're doing. At the same time, there's some other guys who have done a good job of being physical and the things that you're looking for."
By the end of spring, "We'll never be where I want us to be. Period. I know me." It's typical here, like it was with BSU and SDSU, they know where the team is starting and where they want to be when they finish spring. "We're where I thought we'd be right now, and where we thought we'd be."
There's a learning curve "paralysis by analysis" when installing new O and D. You see it more on the defensive side of the ball (which is by nature reactive). "From an offensive standpoint you may see it when the guys up front start movement patterns." Players over-thinking new plays, technique, etc. being a little different. "They're hungry, and they wanna learn. We just gotta keep as coaches doing a good job of being teachers."
Fundamentals and techniques of positions are the critical areas. Every position needs to know proper alignments, line splits, etc. Effort and toughness do not have any wiggle room for being less than perfect. The techniques and schemes are new, but effort and toughness do not change. How big is the gap between what players are doing and it should be done? "I don't know. The Grand Canyon size, right now." Players want to be coached and do it the right way. Guys who have played a lot might be further along, but may be slower learning a different way to do things.
They have 1-on-1 padded drills, not necessarily tackling all the time. "You're only limited to a certain amount [of full-contact practices], so you've gotta cherish those dates."
Had to move practice to 5:30 in the morning [ed: !!!] on Monday because 40-some players had Monday afternoon class. "Morning is my favorite time of day, but i worry about the other end of it for the kids" from an academic perspective.
It's important to practice outside in fall, but not so much in spring. "Previous experience here has told me you may get 6 times at the most to get out in the 15 days." The new indoor facility allows full kicking game, you can throw full deep routes without hitting the ceiling.
+1 Sir, +1. This is exactly why he was fired. It is unbelievable to me that people blame a fucking newspaper and other rediculous reasons for most of his failures.
I don't understand it either. The most perplexing part is that these same folks will throw Carr, former players, former assistants, administration, etc. under the bus all the while blaming everyone else for not being true fans. Like I said, I don't understand it, I never have and I couldn't be happier that all of it is over.
"in his third season, he could not field a team that was capable of even competing with other squads that could reasonably be called "good.""
This is such blind revisionism I'm not even gonna make a serious attempt at addressing it.
I'll say this, though... At the beginning of the year, no one expected us to beat OSU or Wisc.
As for MSU and Iowa, we were in those games in the 4th qtr.... to say we weren't competitive in those games is preposterous.
Iowa could be debated all day, but in a game you lose by 17 points, we weren't in the game in the 4th quarter vs. MSU. Maybe had a shot at the beginning with some "if or buts", but we got our asses kicked. Man up and deal with it.
Yeah, come on man, RR just didn't win enough. I liked RR a whole lot too, but in the end he just didn't win enough games. All of those stupid reasons you listed wouldn't make a difference if we would have gone 9-3 or better this past season, but we didn't. We won 7 games, got pasted a few times, didn't really almost win the games you mention, but almost lost to ND, Indiana, Illinois and kinda Purdue (and also kinda UMass). We lost handily more times than we won handily, and we lost to PSU who really wasn't that good. Our most impressive win was against a ND team that had their QB out for most of the game, and even that was a nail-biter.
I loved RR and wanted him to succeed. But at the end of the day, it was his third season and he didn't win very many football games. It's as simple as that.
Mark Dantonio 11-1 Big Ten Champs in year 4
Anybody who makes blanket statements is just idiotic. " If you can't compete in year 3 than you have to go" is the stupidest thing i have ever heard.
If you wanted him fired you need better reasoning than that. You have to look inside the program. Sure in a bubble 7-5 in year 3 isn't great, but 20 returning starters and playing a backfield of freshmen isn't exactly normal either. He should have got year 4 to show what he could do with an actual team even if some of it was his fault. The offense showed too much promise to change.
I agree with everything you said in your post. However, when you got to the end and started saying "we will never know if RR would of", and "performance on the field and history suggest that he wouldn't of" is killing me. I hate bad grammar, and the use of the word "of" after "would" or "wouldn't" is atrocious. "Would have" or "wouldn't have" is correct grammar. Thank you.
If we lose to OSU by 7, or even lose the bowl game by say, less than 30, is Rich back? (Ok, maybe not the latter). I'm not sure a team that almost beats OSU in the Horseshoe is derailed, and we see what happens next year.
Dude seriously. Look at the teams MSU lost to. CMU and Minnesota?!?! This is why it is impossible to discuss this topic. You guys list a lot of data with teams turning around in year 2 or 3 and RR made some mistakes, I'm not saying he didn't, but if you look back at those teams you have listed how many had 6 freshmen playing in their secondary. How many were playing a true freshmen at qb in year 2? You prove my point again. You have to look at each circumstance differently.
Guys like Tom Brady weren't any fun to watch at QB...we've been bereft of exciting players up until the last year of Michigan Football history....
In all fairness, I much preferred Mike Hart to Brady. I just think it's way more exciting to watch someone cut through holes and scramble than watch someone stand in the pocket for an hour and then launch a four yard pass when we need 12 (yes, this happened constantly under Lloyd). With Denard, you get the mobility of an RB and the passing of a QB. LOVE.
Winning. Any way you can get there works for me.
What DC in his right mind would have come to Michigan with RR as head coach and basically one season to prove his worth (I'm assuming that RR would be fired if we didn't see signifcant improvements)? Also, what makes you think RR is capable of hiring a good DC, let alone one that would have come to Michigan in this situation?
Also, I can't believe you are still that pissed about RR being fired
I think if Jeff Casteel had come with RR to UM, things would've probably been a lot different. And please, RR wouldn't have needed to recruit a DC if Brandon would've been willing to open the checkbook for him like he did for Hoke. Flash enough cash, and they will come. Also, I'm still pissed that RR was fired. I think a lot of people are. Doesn't mean I'm anti-Hoke.
When Rich came over. And none of his other staff objected to the pay (completely your speculation on why Casteel didn't come initially...maybe he just doesn't like Rich...just as idle, but no less valid conjecture). And not willing to break the bank on a 3rd try? Not exactly a bad decision.
Everything you say could very well turn out true. Until the games are played though no one knows, including the RR haters. Two years from now they may be turning on Hoke too.
Of course they will. If he can't give them the success that they think they deserve, Hoke's head will be on the chopping block next. He knows that. Thus, the countdown clocks to MSU and OSU. If he can't beat one of them in the next 2-3 years, bye bye.
Why are you so convinced that a man who went 15-22 overall, and 6-18 in conference play, was going to morph into an all-time great coach? Three years at Michigan demonstrated convincingly that RR was in way over his head on the defensive side of the ball. On D, he was the worst of both worlds: indifferent (by his own admission, he spent very limited time working there) and meddling (he insisted on his own guys as position coaches and wanted to run the 3-3-5). You really think ace defensive coordinators were falling over themselves to work with RR?
Why are you convinced that a man who went 34-38 at Ball State and 13-12 at SDSU will win at Michigan, let alone be a great coach?
Where did I say I was " convinced" Hoke will be a great coach? I don't know how he'll do. He could fail. I do think he's assembled a quality staff, which gives me some hope, but I can't make any predictions.
What I don't understand is how some here seem genuinely more interested in protecting the reputation of a fired coach than actually seeing his successor succeed here.
Re. your last paragraph..... Dude seriously??
Every time I remember RR crying it was in the context of caring for his players or about the success of the program or something similar.
Funny, Hoke cried in his first presser for very similar reasons. Yet, you're not gonna interpret that negatively. You're just as bad as the media that crucified RR no matter what yet fawns over hoke now.
FBs? Under center (should that be hyphenated?)? Defense? these are not concepts I am familiar with. I think we need some kind of informative post: this is what MANBALL is.
Seriously though, I get the feeling that my expectations should be lowered a notch perhaps two notches. Why can't we just get a coach to come in and say: After 3 solid days of amazingly good practice during which no one so much as stubbed a toe we've determined we are going to be kind of a big deal this year. Our players picked up the offense in much the same way you'd expect a baby killer whale gets used to being wet. We've installed basically 90 percent of our offense and honestly I don't plan on worrying about the rest as I mentioned before i really think we're going to be kind of a big deal.
I'm nervous about this whole thing but we're only three days in, and will give this a shot... because its not like I have another option.
The players would believe them, and then it really all comes down crashing and burning when effort goes out the window.
I know its unreasonable and potentially unhealthy for the team for a coach to say anything like this, but I get so fed up with coach speak crap that I felt the need to vent.
Message board seemed like the appropriate venty type place.
This is just why coaches do it. But I understand the fun that would exist if it were otherwise. Isn't that what Fred Jackson is for? :-)
lol Fred Jackson. There's a reason he's my favorite coach.
With Brady's we STINK to the returning players only points out that he is a shill for the main loser Lloyd. If this doesn't confirm that Lloyd was the snake in the grass what does?
But we know that both Lloyd and Brady are Michigan men that only accept past Michigan players and therefore were willing to take down the program for the past couple of years.
And we have a winner for the stupidest post of the week.
I still can't make any sense of it.
What the heck are you talking about?
I sincerely hope for the sake of this board that whoever gave this bullshit a +1 did so under the impression that it was some amazing performance art.
I can't promote this kind of post...with that said...it kind of made me laugh.
Maybe Red can help with that power play..
Saw this hasn't been posted, and I have too few points to start a topic...
Mooney High graduate Ray Vinopal is transferring from Michigan to Pitt, according to two sources familiar with the situation.
As a true freshman safety last season, Vinopal appeared in 11 games with four starts, making 33 tackles, including 111/2 for loss for the Wolverines, who went 7-6 and lost in the Gator Bowl. Wolverines coach Rich Rodriguez was fired after the season.
Vinopal, who did not respond to interview requests, will sit out next season due to NCAA transfer guidelines.
It is day three of SPRING practice. The coaches are implementing new schemes on both sides of the ball. It is going to be a while until the players and coaches are comfortable with each other. I wasn't expected sunshine and rainbows to come from Coach Hoke. Take a deep breath, exhale and repeat.
I am really torn. I was coming around on the Hoke hire, but after Brandon and Hoke made fun of Rodriguez at the BHCC event I will not root for Hoke or Brandon to succeed.
I want a winning team and Michigan to succeed but I think the AD is an arrogant asshole and he hired a shorter, bigger version of himself who had less success as Head Coach.
August and September cannot come fast enough. Once the games start its easy to put this all behind us and root for the team.