Youth Football Lawsuit

Submitted by ndscott50 on

Here is an interesting article in Slate about a lawsuit against Pop Warner. 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/03/pop_warner_football_lawsuit_is_kids_football_an_abnormally_dangerous_activity.single.html

After reading the article I don’t think she can win though it is an interesting legal argument.  If she did win Pop Warner would likely be done in the next few years due to skyrocketing insurance cost.  Regardless of the outcome of this case more legal action against football is likely to occur in future years.  This makes me wonder when youth and high school football administrators will come to the conclusion that it’s not worth it due to the liability risk.

Do you think our grandkids will wonder what football is as they attend the big lacrosse match at Michigan Stadium? 

xxxxNateDaGreat

March 18th, 2015 at 10:31 AM ^

"Do you think our grandkids will wonder what football is as they attend the big lacrosse match at Michigan Stadium?" I don't think it will go that far, but I do see the popularity of football eventually dying down and some other sport becoming the mega popular one sometime in the next 15 years. Possibly Basketball.

xxxxNateDaGreat

March 18th, 2015 at 10:35 AM ^

Preemptive strike: I don't see football going away anytime soon, I just think it'll be hard to maintain the popularity with the outcry for more studies and information on concussions. I mean, when some of your own active professional players are questioning whether it's safe for them to play, that seems like a flashing neon warning sign to me.

M-Dog

March 18th, 2015 at 6:04 PM ^

Football won't go away, it will just change form . . . like it already has done several times since it's inception 150 years ago, usually due to safety.
 
It will still have some from of 4 downs to move the ball 10 yards, working your way to the end zone.  What that will look like, is to be determined.  There are some hints in 7 on 7 football, flag football, even Rugby on how to have less injuries.
 
But whatever it is, they better get to it.  There are not going to be any kids left that play it for us to watch later at the college and Pro level.
 
I live in the Maryland suburbs outside DC, a very "politically correct" area.  Every fall I brace myself for the announcement that football will no longer be allowed to be played in the school system.  They are already struggling to field teams in some of the schools because parents won't let their kids play.  I know my wife would not let my son play.
 
 
 

Moleskyn

March 18th, 2015 at 10:36 AM ^

Possibly Basketball

Not a chance. I think if any sport moves past football, it will be the other football. That's the only sport that seems to be gaining momentum in America.

Personally, I still love baseball more than any other sport, but I understand how people think it's boring. Maybe with some of the "pace of play" changes that Manfred is experimenting with, that will help regain some people's interest, but I just don't see baseball rising back to the top of American sports any time soon.

WolvinLA2

March 18th, 2015 at 11:02 AM ^

Gaining momentum in America?  I've heard that as long as I've been alive and it seems to be only slightly more popular than it was 25 years ago.  

I like the OP's suggestion of lacrosse.  I think that is the best match for physicality, speed and scoring.  Soccer is too slow with too little scoring.  And too much whining every time you get touched.

Hail-Storm

March 18th, 2015 at 11:33 AM ^

and still play soccer in my 30s.  I've also attended a match in Germany that was one of the best sporting events I've ever been to. With that said, I really watch very little soccer. For some reason it doesn't translate live to television for me.  I agree that Lacrosse could grow quickly in the next decade as it skyrocketed this last decade. 

A nice combination of soccer, football, and hockey. 

taistreetsmyhero

March 18th, 2015 at 11:37 AM ^

about soccer that will keep it from being the dominant sport here. It seems pretentious to insinuate that there is something unique amongst American sports fans that makes us unable to enjoy the sport that pretty much every other country enjoys. The major factor is just history; soccer evolved across the globe in a period where we were somewhat cut off from other countries socially.

WolvinLA2

March 18th, 2015 at 12:48 PM ^

One of the big differences between America and much of the rest of the world is the number of exciting sports we have to choose from. A fan in the US has, for a couple generations, football, soccer, baseball, basketball, hockey and few other small sports to choose from as a fan. With that comparison, soccer will lose out more often than not. Wanna know my soccer has been the most popular sport in Latin America? Because it has been the only sport. Same can be said for a lot of Europe too, until recently. Maybe the reason soccer is so popular everywhere else is because there just aren't better options. With basketball's increased popularity, soccer has lost market share in a number of countries. Wanna know why there are fewer hockey fans in LA than Michigan? Not because LA people don't like hockey, just that few of them grew up with it like I did. And the ones who do, love it. My father-in-law grew up in Guatemala and loves soccer. His kids grew up in the US and although they like soccer, they prefer football and other sports over soccer. When you have options, soccer loses.

blackstarwolverine

March 18th, 2015 at 1:12 PM ^

You are over-generalizing. My parents grew up having access to rugby, soccer, field hockey, tennis and other sports in a recently independent, developing country. It has much more to do with history than "options." The US historical anti-soccer sentiment, which was related to its fear of immigrants not Amercanizing, I'd argue has much more to do with soccer's lack of professional success compared to the NFL, NBA, and MLB. There is still a negative stigma surrounding soccer in the US, which the Onion parodied here: http://www.theonion.com/video/soccer-officially-announces-it-is-gay,176…

WolvinLA2

March 18th, 2015 at 1:46 PM ^

I am generalizing a bit, because its obviously not the same reason for everyone. But I'm sure my reasons account for a lot more than people being afraid of immigrants not Americanizing, since most parents in this country have no problem with their kids playing soccer. Both my brother and I played soccer growing up. But neither of us care to watch it because it's boring, compared to other sports.

Moleskyn

March 18th, 2015 at 12:46 PM ^

Gaining momentum in America? I've heard that as long as I've been alive and it seems to be only slightly more popular than it was 25 years ago.

I based my statement on a few factors:

  • The improved talent level/competitiveness of the men's national team. People like to get behind a good team, and the national team is better now than it was 25 years ago.
  • MLS popularity. I myself don't follow MLS (I'm not really a big soccer fan at all, aside from the national team), but you look at the fanbases of teams like the Seattle Sounders, and they are rabidly behind their teams. I can't speak directly to the NASL, but the MLS seems more sustainable.
  • The growing internationalization of society. I'm not just referring to the US, but society in general. The internet makes the world much more accessible, and I think Americans are seeing the success and popularity of European soccer clubs and are wanting to experience the same thing in America.

Highly anecdotal reasons, I know, but the sport does seem to be growing in popularity. MLS (and Euro leagues) are hampered by not having big TV deals in America, but that could change if the networks think that TV deals would be worth it.

WolvinLA2

March 18th, 2015 at 12:54 PM ^

I'm not saying soccer hasn't gained any popularity, but it's not exactly taking off. Lots of kids still play it, just like they did 25 years ago. But I don't ever see it on TV outside of the WC or Spanish channels. Hell, I've seen more college wrestling or track and field or softball than I have soccer. I've seem more beach volleyball on TV than soccer. My opinion is all anecdotal as well, but soccer just seems to be where it is. I know almost no one whose favorite sport is soccer.

It'sGreatToBe

March 18th, 2015 at 1:13 PM ^

"But I don't ever see it on TV outside of the WC or Spanish channels. Hell, I've seen more college wrestling or track and field or softball than I have soccer. I've seem more beach volleyball on TV than soccer."

ESPN and Fox secured the broadcasting rights to and are airing live MLS soccer matches every Sunday evening from now until the season ends in October. This level of prime television exposure for MLS is obviously pretty new (and who knows how sucessful it will be in the end), but it reflects a pretty big step forward for the sport. http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2015/01/07/destination-doubleheaders-sunday-nights-2015-mean-two-mls-games-espn-fox

 

Moleskyn

March 18th, 2015 at 2:36 PM ^

Coincidentally, I just stumbled across this:

I think that picture proves your point and shows what I was thinking. I was picturing the images I've seen of Sounders fans just going nuts over their team, and that's evident here...but it also shows that it's nowhere near the level of popularity of football. That stadium would be packed if the Seahawks were playing. I guess I fell for the perception.

Blue Indy

March 18th, 2015 at 1:19 PM ^

More likely, we'll see football evolve towards rugby before we see it eclipsed by another sport altogether. There's too much fanaticism for it to just drop off. Changing the sport and coaching it correctly can have a significant impact on safety (i.e. "heads up" tackling). That being said, sports are dangerous. Many studies show that cheerleading has a higher capacity for catastrophic injury than football- hell, even runners experience higher risks of hip/joint displacement over time. 

You know what's even more dangerous, though... not exercising. Rather than focusing on removing a sport, we should be encouraging our kids to get the hell of their couch and do SOMETHING active...

Yostbound and Down

March 18th, 2015 at 10:37 AM ^

I didn't get a chance to go to the Real Madrid/Man Utd. game last year but always wondered what soccer would look like at the Big House.

Think it will be soccer if anything replaces football in the big stadiums, lacrosse is still far too much of a niche sport. Plus it is awful on TV. This is from someone who played it in high school. 

WolvinLA2

March 18th, 2015 at 11:04 AM ^

I think lacrosse is great on TV.  It has built in breaks (time outs, quarter intermission) and has lots of speed.  Unlike hockey, you don't have a hard time seeing what's going on.  I love watching lacrosse on TV and I think that's why ESPN picks up more games every year.  

A lot more college lacrosse on TV than college soccer, that's for sure.

Yostbound and Down

March 18th, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^

Completely disagree re: Hockey. It is much clearer with HD and white ice, black puck. Lacrosse you can't really tell the trajectory of a ball ever, you just have to trust that the player has it. Plus, without the shot clock it is boring watching the offense rotate. I don't know how long the rules have been the way they are with the three zones but I'd much rather see them do a full field game. It was always a bummer playing defense and knowing there's really no way to join the rush. If they made those changes playing and watching lacrosse would be a lot more fun. I play hockey now in a rec league and enjoy it much more than I ever did playing lacrosse, even though I was better at lax and am a poor skater.

College soccer is pretty meh to me but I'll watch occasionally.



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Michigan248

March 18th, 2015 at 10:39 AM ^

"Do you think our grandkids will wonder what football is as they attend the big lacrosse match at Michigan Stadium? "

That is the dumbest question ever asked on this board,




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bluebyyou

March 18th, 2015 at 10:44 AM ^

I think the OP is correct in his assessments.

As much as I hate to say it, because I absolutely love football on both the college and professional level, and attend all Michigan home games, I believe that unless there is some change in equipment that will prevent CTE, I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of football as we know it.  Cleveland Clinic did a study a couple of years ago showing that you do not need head trauma to induce CTE.  

Earlier this week, Chris Borland retired from the NFL after one year.  He is but one of several relatively young NFL players who recently left the sport out of fear of CTE later in life.

CTE-related lawsuits are becoming more frequent.  We know about the NFL's ongoing case, but lately, there have been several suits against the NCAA/universities. All it will take is a couple of large judgments for damages and the cost of playing football will become too much for many institutions. High schools will drop the sport because they won't be able to afford the cost of insurance or a litigation.  Then there are ethical considerations of sponsoring a sport where your players pay a very dfferent price than arthritic knees and shoulders.

Pop Warner participation has dropped significantly.  I see that as the beginning of the end unless there is some medical miracle that can counter CTE biochemically.

Yostbound and Down

March 18th, 2015 at 10:51 AM ^

I'm honestly fine if they shut down Pop Warner, don't think kids should really be playing til middle school or high school. It'd be a shame if this actually ended football though like you said. I think the Patrick Willis scenario will be more likely than the Borland one...guys retiring a little bit early vs. guy with preexisting condition deciding to stop right away.

ndscott50

March 18th, 2015 at 11:13 AM ^

Losing Pop Warner and other youth football should not do that much damage to the game.  The only concern is the trend where parents have their kids specialize in a sport year round at an early age.  High School is the big risk as that is essentially a required feeder into college programs.

Any decline in football will be a long term event.  You could see some states (California most likely) see a large number of school districts give up on the game due to legal/insurance cost and health concerns.  It would not surprise me to see some southern states (TX, AL, etc.) jump to the defense of the sport and attempt to legislatively limit the liability of youth and high school football organizations. 

In the end the sport becomes increasingly regional and popularity falls. I am not arguing that football goes away in the next ten years.  It is very possible that the game has reached its peak in popularity and will be begin a slow decline that plays out over the next 25 to 50 years. 

CoachBP6

March 18th, 2015 at 10:44 AM ^

I feel bad she lost a son, but if pop Warner shuts it down there's always Vince Lombardi and other private leagues available. Football isn't going anywhere.

turtleboy

March 18th, 2015 at 10:51 AM ^

NFL revenue is bigger than baseball, bigger than all the European soccer leagues revenue combined, and bigger than basketball and hockey revenue combined. NCAA football is the 3rd highest revenue sport on earth, and can overtake baseball in the next 5 years with the new playoff. Next time anyone tries to argue "the end times are here, football is dead!" just read that first sentence again.

turtleboy

March 18th, 2015 at 12:20 PM ^

It's not easy finding all the sports listed together, but the problem with the euro leagues is many teams run at a defecit (see financial fair play) They drag down the higher numbers. Plus there's a huge disparity Eden the top 1 or 2 huge teams, and the rest of the league. The EPL revenue is under $5b, next is the bundesliga with right around $2b, and then LaLiga with around $1.9b as a league. The NFL is pushing $10b in revenue, and that's without a team in the nations second largest market. Revenue could jump much higher with an LA team. Here a list with sources to all of last year's posted finances per league. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_r…

blackstarwolverine

March 18th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^

I highly doubt this considering Forbes top 10 Sports Franchises internationally is dominated by soccer clubs. http://www.businessinsider.com/epl-vs-nfl-commercial-revenue-2014-11 This link compares just the NFL with one European soccer league. La Liga, Bundesliga, EPL, Ligue 1, and Serie A, adding broadcasting rights, stadium revenue, and commercial rights would total more than the NFL.

turtleboy

March 18th, 2015 at 2:00 PM ^

Consider billion dollar clubs (or near) like man u, city, Liverpool, arsenal, Chelsea, Madrid, barca, Bayern, and PSG. That's only 9 teams. The NFL has all 32 teams at or near that level. Take the Silverdome as it is. Pull the roof off, hose it down and send guys through with leaf blowers and it's automatically the second nicest stadium in the EPL ( after the emirates) and the second largest (after old Trafford) most teams in the EPL play in garbage stadiums and fight each other to avoid relegation. The big clubs are big, but their league averages are small.

The Mad Hatter

March 18th, 2015 at 10:54 AM ^

Middle and upper class kids will probably start to play less and less, but there will be no shortage of poor kids willing to sacrifice their bodies for a chance at a better life.

Join the military and get shot at tomorrow, or play football and maybe deal with a brain injury 30 years from now?

Boxing is still around.

The Mad Hatter

March 18th, 2015 at 11:38 AM ^

But my overall point was that there will always be people that are willing to sacrifice their bodies for some gain.  Or just for the love of the game.

Rules will change, equipment will get safer, maybe little kids will stop playing tackle football (which seems fucking crazy to me in the first place), but football will still be around in a form all of us would recognize in 100 years.

straight-gangs…

March 18th, 2015 at 11:23 AM ^

Although I agree on some level, with your thoughts that a percentage of kids are playing with the dream some day of "going pro," I doubt that is the driving factor for participation moving forward. From what I see out on the field with the young kids, they are playing because they love it and their friends play. I'm a father of a son who started playing tackle football this past year and a majority of the families on his team and the families at the other grade levels within the school district are of the middle class variety. I played 10 years growing up 3rd grade-senior so I probably have a bias towards allowing my kid to participate if that is what he wants to do. I'm running into a meeting in my car right now so I don't have time to search, but there are recent studies done which do show the pros( leadership, health, social) to playing football outweight the long term injury risks associated. My point isn't to argue there isn't a risk, but only to highlight that there are two sides to the debate. I don't see football going away, however we will continue to see new rules, equipment, awareness that will drive little changes. I believe that the new awareness of CTE, the kids "heads up" programs and techings will continue to improve up this. You have to remember with the recent retirement for the 49er LB, we are talking 3 concussions seperated over several years......not that different from what someone might expect from playing soccor....

straight-gangs…

March 18th, 2015 at 6:54 PM ^

I had it saved on my prior laptop and will link, when I locate. Here is another recent article from two leading neurologists which has the same general them as the study I was references. The problem is, it's not the "popular" argument and is overwhelmingly drowned out by the CTE alarmists. When you start to looke at the tiny fraction of players who have been diagnosed with CTE from youth-NFL, it's almost zero. We tend to also lean on CTE/Concussions as the absolute reasoning behind mental illness, suicide and so on, with NFL players, not because it's proven, but because it's an easy connection to make. Don't get me wrong, there are real issues with ongoing, repeat concussions, but I think there is a bit of histaria that's been driven by the media and some former players who see the NFL making billions of dollars. Here is a link to a must read with a different perspective...... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/29/joseph-maroon-and-julia…

Alton

March 18th, 2015 at 10:58 AM ^

Football will still exist as a spectator sport.

110 years ago, there was an equivalent moral panic about football being too dangerous.  I'm sure there were people predicting that American football would be replaced in the nation's eyes by association football or something like that.  But that's generally not how it works in the real world--instead, football intentionally changed its rules to become a safer sport.  Outlawing some old unsafe strategies and permitting some new, safer (and more exciting) strategies.  There is no reason that it can't do that again. 

I can certainly see the sport of football evolving back into something more rugby-like over the next few decades, or on the other hand becoming more "basketball on grass."  I can't see the sport of football disappearing and being replaced by another currently-existing sport like lacrosse or association football.

 

MichiganMAN47

March 18th, 2015 at 11:10 AM ^

Just like we don't play gladiator anymore, we won't play football at some point. Sports change. Our society has a lust for violence and skill.

This story of CTE will get worse and worse with every suicide/ mental issue. I can't help but wonder if I was affected at times due to my years of playing, when I forget something it makes me nervous. I don't think football will come to an end in the near future, it could just become more of a niche sport like Nascar or boxing. That would be very sad, but health should come first, especially when it comes to your brain.

mlax27

March 18th, 2015 at 11:14 AM ^

The rules of lacrosse have been changing due to concussions.  It's basically illegal now to give out a big physical body check.  Girls are even wearing helmets in some states, and their rules have no contact at all.  The game is still largely the same, but safer.

I'm not sure I can see Football finding a way to change the rules to keep it safer without drastically impacting the style of play.