Pretty damning stuff and good for Rivals/Yahoo for posting it. It'll be interesting to see if there is any reaction at all from the NCAA.
Yahoo Sports posts Reggie Bush Documents
Somebody should probably copy that stuff for the potential retraction. Post it up on some website that will post anything with no regard for requests from the NCAA, like Bleacher Report or Smoking Gun.
yahoo sports has lead the charge, those documents have been up since 2008 it looks like, so I don't think a retraction would be anything to worry about.
I mean, this is nothing. Now, poorly handling workout logs, THAT is a scandal.
USC posters would always say that yahoo was being mean with the bush thing because it was founded by 2 stanford grads, not even sure if thats true but I do see the same humor you're eluding to.
since Fahrenheit 9/11.
Hahaha. Michael Moore could do a documentary on cannibalism and make it seem ok with the slant/manipulation he puts on everything. Hahahaha
If he's found to have taken improper bennies while at USC can he be forced to forfeit the Heisman?
controls and awards the Heisman. It would be up to it.
The Heisman isn't sanctioned by the NCAA, so he wouldn't be forced to give it up by them
Edit - beaten to the punch!
that only the Downtown Athletic Club can retract the award itself. They might, but even OJ is still listed as a winner, so it seems unlikely.
The physical trophy can be forfeited in civil situations as a valuable asset (this happened to OJ after the Goldman civil suit). But I don't think Bush committed any wrongs that would give rise to that kind of liability.
OJ wasn't really guilty of anything while being a player. Slight difference in situation, but I agree that it won't be retracted.
I was just pointing out that no one has ever had his Heisman retracted, including a confessed (hypothetical) killer.
who was guilty of being a player.
The two situations are drastically different. While OJ's situation is far more serious in the life factor, it should not have any bearing on his playing days while at USC. Nothing he did in his life, which is a lot, took place while at USC. Sure, he might have been found guilty in a civil suit of essentially murdering someone. It is after the fact. It would be irresponsible to take that from him for in an ex post facto like maneuver.
Bush on the other hand committed infractions of rules set by the governing body of his sport, while still competing. These types of offenses influenced his playing days. This is a much more serious infraction when it comes to the NCAA and potential Heisman revocation.
Right, if he was getting paid under the table does that even make him a "college football player" per the DAC's definition? What if it turned out that Bush was never even enrolled/went to class at USC? Would he still keep it? I'm starting a VY4 Heisman campaign...
But I don't think that they should reaward the trophy. It would be like awarding wins to all the teams who played against FSU in the wins they recently forfeited.
My point is simply that the DAC has never retracted the award, and it's hard to imagine them doing so here. It's a can of worms that they can avoid by simply ignoring it.
Personally, I think he should lose it. And if this was an award granted by the NCAA, then I'd expect that he might lose it. But I sincerely doubt it.
O.J. was innocent I thought.
sadly I don't think so. Bush's settlement with New Era, the guys he accepted the house from, included some type of gag and the NCAA doesn't have the subpeona power to make them talk to them.
all over this and push the NCAA to come down hard on USC.
That would be the pot calling the kettle black.
If you think you're involved in a potential scandal, don't send an e-mail to your co-workers saying "Dude, I need help with this scandal I'm working on."
Pretty damning for Bush, but last time I checked, he is not on trial. Where is the evidence that USC knew about any of this? My guess is it doesn't exist. I'm not even sure USC football will get sanctioned for this. USC basketball, on the other hand, will get nailed.
I think the hearings going on now are set up with the intent to show that USC organized all this. If nothing else, USC okayed Bush's 'Internship' with one of the agent groups pursuing him. Even allowing a student athlete into a sports agent's building is probably offense enough.
Also, they don't really have to prove that USC knew about any of it. Simply NOT being aware of it is a pretty bad thing. "Lack of Institutional Control". You need to know who is talking to your students.
Lack of institutional control is turning a blind eye when you know or highly suspect that things are going on but do not want to "know" in order to protect yourself. Where is the evidence that USC did this? You suggest that the misconduct was so egregious that they must have known, but I do not think that is the standard. Also, be careful what you wish for. I don't think Michigan is at a point where it wants an aggressive NCAA given its own issues with the folks over in Indianapolis.
Universities are required to stay on top of this stuff and are held responsible even if they didn't know what was going on. The consequences are worse when they know about violations and don't do anything about them, but should the NCAA conclude that Reggie Bush received improper benefits regardless, they will sanction USC.
I don't think USC will get the death penalty, but the punishment should be pretty heavy imo. How could compliance not know about any of this going on?
edit: Even if we haven't seen anything showing the school "knew", an argument could be made that the school should have known given the public nature of some of his sponsorships. The Reggie Bush Golf Classic?
The "death penalty" was literally the death of the program. The NCAA canceled all the games in the upcoming (1987) season. The program canceled all the 1988 games as well.
You've got the basic idea: players were paid to play (lots, like $25,000 to sign), the NCAA found out and put the team on probation in 1985. SMU continued to do it and got effectively kicked out of the NCAA in 1987.
So, depending on how the NCAA handles this situation, the "death penalty" is a possibility. But, since it seems like they're treating Bush and Mayo as combined violations and not "2 separate violations in 5 years", it's probably off the table.
My guess is that Carroll's resignation bought them a lighter sentence. But if the punishment is anything less than Michigan's for the Webber scandal, because it sure sounds the same
The NCAA has basically said in the past that they'll never give the death penalty again. The know that what happened to SMU was too severe.
I think it would take something substantially worse than this USC business to warrant another death penalty, though hopefully some type of severe sanction will be levied.
The NCAA - completely useless and impotent since 1905.
The "Death Penalty" is too severe and it punishes too many other people such as USC's opponents, the PAC 10, and most importantly--ESPN and the other TV networks.
Besides, two players don't make necessarily make a trend. The basketball program basically had one (albeit huge) violation and the football program is accused of not knowing about Reggie Bush's involvement with agents. There are a lot of top players involved with agents every year, regardless of what comes to light.
The "Death Penalty" would be valid say if a hypothetical school like "Michigan Agricultural College" had a system of widespread paying of recruits to attend school over a couple of year period that was (at least tacitly) approved of by the administration.
Those are my thoughts. USC probably did some bad stuff, but probably not enough to deserve to be guillatined.
I don't think the NCAA will ever give the Death Penalty again because of what it did to SMU. But if I am correct, SMU had already committed violations, was on probation, had been sanctioned, and still maintained a slush fund for blatant cash payments to recruits and players that was well-known and almost flaunting their disregard for the rules. Apparently it wasn't nickel and dime stuff, either. It would be analagous to U of M keeping Fisher as coach after Ed Martin, not disassociating itself with Ed Martin, and maintaining an account at a bank that alumni and donors would deposit cash into that was distributed to recruits and players in stacks of bills by Bruce Madej or someone. While on probation and banned from the NCAA tourney. Something like that. Just blatant pissing in the face of the NCAA. And even then, U of M bball probably wouldn't have gotten the death penalty because it's just too severe. I have a hunch that SMU was so blatant that the NCAA people felt completely disrespected on a level probably never seen before or since, and wanted to destroy them. Which they did, really. 30 years later and SMU has never been the same.
They don't have to. Just proof that you didn't have proper control over who was involved with you program is plenty damning.
He nor USC was accused of going beyond the NCAA practice time restrictions so it should be fine!
Go easy on me now, this is my first post attempting humor/sarcasm. There's probably some grammar & punctuation mistakes also.
You'll get the hang of it. Perhaps you'll eventually get to be as snarky as some of the MGoLegends around here.
Someday, Simba, this will all be yours.
other than Bush? I didn't open any of the actual docs, I only read the summaries. But the only mention of anyone at USC other than Bush himself, is a mention that his summer job was approved by the school.
These all raise some institutional control issues and use of an eligible player, but the docs by themselves don't seem to support any direct involvement or even knowledge by the university.
Is the NCAA going to get around to asking for Ed Orgeron's phone records? You know he initiated some of those calls to Tennessee recruits.
I'm sure we'll see plenty more of this with Kiffin there.
I would like to see that NCAA throw the book at USC, I think they let all sorts of things happen, whether they were directly involved or not, and now they have one of the most suspect coaches in the NCAA at thier helm. I think USC deserves the 'death penalty' if any program does.
I honestly have no desire to give the NCAA the power to sanction without solid evidence. The NCAA is nuts. In short time, North Dakota would be facing the death penalty for being the Fighting Sioux.
you got some 'splainin' to do!!!
Maybe they can do an investigation to prove that Matt Leinert pushed him into the endzone against Notre Dame.