WTF Tigers Thread
Are the Tigers the only team that follows up a sweep of a team by getting swept by another? I remember this happening last year as well. Production at the plate is absolutely anemic, and the pitching staff gives up home runs about every other inning. At least they don't let you get your hopes up for long.
Problem is, they are in a terrible division. So that's why they would kill (division rival) and then be killed (by non-division opponent), if you know what I'm saying.
Agree to your first point, but Seattle is not exactl;y a powerhouse team. Near the bottom of the AL in many offensive categories.
They've lost 5 out of 6 to Seattle who is horrible. IF they keep this up I think Leyland is going to get the broom at some point during the year.
Because when evaluating his job performance, most GM's will first search to see what his record against Seattle is.
WTF Tigers, WTF Yahoo Mail, and I'm feeling a WTF NFL Draft later today.
I know! I spent 6 hours writing an essay this morning, and it took me an hour to email it to my teacher!!! WTF YAHOO MAIL!!!!!!
FIRE LEYLAND!
Gonna get swept by the Mariners AT HOME. Pathetic. Leyland has to go. DD has to go.
Rational.
But Dombrowski's excellent drafting has been paired with some pretty shaky free agent signings and questionable roster construction. Plus they've rushed the hell out of a slew of top prospects. And Leyland is far too enamored with strategies that cost his team runs.
I don't think it's wrong to question whether they're the right guys going forward.
what shakey free-agent signings? It's obviously too early to say much about VMart or Penny.
Signing Valverde was good. Magglio has worked out, overall, better than most would have thought. Damon was fine.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't think of who you're talking about.
I wouldn't worry about Victor Martinez. As an Indians fan, I know how great a player he is. He will get it going and there is no doubt about that.
I hated the Benoit and Martinez signings. The only way the VMart signing made sense was if he was going to catch everyday; his bat isn't good enough for him to justify the contract at DH. And 3 year deals for relievers not named Mariano Rivera are always bad, especially when that reliever had an unsustainably low BABIP and an unsustainably high strand rate.
Plus the decision to give Willis the huge contract immedately after trading for him, and signing Peralta to a 2 year deal in the offseason.
Obviously, Willis was a disaster, and I didn't understand extending Inge AND re-signing Peralta - I thought one probably had to go, as Peralta is a miserable SS.
Objectively, though, this offense, on paper, is much better than last year's offense was - that's to Dumbrowski's credit. The Granderson/Jackson for AJax/Scherzer/Schlereth swap looks VERY promising. As you noted, the drafting is good.
I'm not saying there aren't valid criticisms here, but an early season sweep to a crappy team isn't the disaster these people seem to think.
What everyone called the Dontrelle Willis trade was really the Miguel Cabrera trade. And me likey that trade very much.
To be fair, nobody really criticizes the trade, they criticize the extension they handed Willis after the trade. The trade itself was a fleecing - Andrew Miller and Maybin have done jackshit.
Forgot about the extension. And by "forgot," I mean "repressed the memory of."
That sucked.
Aubrey Huff?
Edgar Renteria?
is that every good move seems to be accompanied by a move that makes me question whether we're really evaluating players (and value more generally) in the most productive way. I agree that you can point to a lot of really good moves, although Jackson's not going to have a season like he did last year again unless he can learn plate discipline, which arguably isn't a skill that develops over time.
My issue by and large isn't with who we're getting, it's how much we're paying to get them. Victor Martinez is a very good baseball player. Victor Martinez DHing for 12.5 a year is not a very good deal. Benoit is a good relief pitcher. Benoit on a 3 year deal that he can only live up to if he holds his career year for the life of the contract is not a good deal.
I'm not arguing that getting swept by the Mariners is a sign that things are doomed. My issue is with broader roster management and player development trends (rushing players) that I had an issue with before the season started.
I do think Leyland needs to go well before Dombrowski though.
I'm of the opinion that Managers really just fill out the lineup cards, then take a nap. Leyland has done a decent job identifying platoons, and runs a bullpen fine. It ain't his fault that Magglion is hitting .180.
but Leyland loves all the manager-y stuff that costs teams runs, even if it's only a few runs a year. Bunting, hitting and running,having guys steal when they don't have 75% success rates: it's all bad, and it's frustrating to watch even if the impact is pretty marginal.
Magglio has been a nice player but he was drastically overpaid. Giving Dontrelle Willis a big extension without ever pitching for the Tigers and coming off a 5+ ERA year in the national league was one of the worst contract signings I've ever seen. This isn't a free agent signing but the trade of Jurrjens for Renteria was indefensible. I was so mad at the time when he did that. Our shallow staff could really use another good young pitcher and Renteria was terrible in the AL for the Red Sox.
Dombo has drafted well becase the Tigers have been willing to sign Boras clients like Verlander and Porcello to big MLB contracts. The MLB draft operates more like an auction than a draft so I wouldn't give Dombo all the credit for drafting well. Illitch has just been willing to pay guys. For all the money the Tigs have spent the last 5 years, you have to say that Dombrowski has done a mediocre to poor job. Hugely underachieved since the 2006 series based on payroll.
I'm not in the fire Leyland crowd, but you have to admit he sometimes leaves you scratching your head. Last year it was every third game or so he'd throw a lineup together that had you asking "does he even care about this game?" This year, it's a couple things. Jackson looks awful, like there's something that's just not clicking, yet he's still run out there in the leadoff spot every game. Ryan Raburn hasn't been tearing it up offensively, yet we find a place for him in the lineup everyday, often at a different position. I like Ryan, and like that he's willing to play wherever, but we're sacrificing defense to get a guy in the line-up that has three less strikeouts than total bases.
I think Raburn's offensive output over the past 2 seasons, combined with the Tiger's continued struggles to find live bats more than explains why he's in the lineup.
He's gotten 685 plate appearances over the past two seasons (about a full year's worth), and has hit .285/.340/.460. In other words - the second best hitter on the team over that time. He used to struggle against righties, but that's evened out. Given how miserable the offense has been, I have no problem giving him a spot in the lineup. I'll live with his glove before I live with Rhymes' bat anyday.
As per Jackson in the leadoff role - I understand not wanting to submarine a young player's confidence. Also, who else are they going to put there? Rhymes? Don Kelly? Santiago?
I guess I just don't understand what we're doing at second base. Rhymes was given the starting job out of spring training in the battle between him and Sizemore. Yet, 8 games in, he basically became a part-timer. Why? He won the job because of what he did last year and the spring, but you bench him because of a cold start? And if you're going to do that, why not go give Sizemore a shot?
Part of the argument about Raburn playing left field for the tigers this year, back when we didn't know which Boesch was going to show up, was that his defense would improve with him concentrating on one position. Well now, we've undermined that for a guy who isn't hitting this season. So, we've undercut a somewhat promising second base prospect, created awful defense all around to get a 30 year-old support player on the field everyday, I just don't get it. As you've pointed out, Raburn has been pretty decent in his role as part-time starter/utility guy. But he's only been our second best hitter over the last two years because Martinez, Ordonez, and Jackson didn't play two full seasons with Detroit. Also, you'd have to say that Avila and Boesch show more potential as hitters. So really, we're looking at our 6th, 7th best bat, at best? Lets let Raburn get back to his role, and maybe he starts producing again, like he has the previous two seasons.
I don't understand saying that Jackson has to be in the leadoff role or he'll lose confidence. I don't think he can lose any more. He's a young player. Young players go through bad funks. Send him to Toledo for a short stint, let him get some hits again and let him come back up. At the very least, drop him down to nine, take some pressure off, Leyland's a pro, I'm sure he could make something work without ruining the kids career. I don't know who to replace him with, but whoever it is, couldn't be any worse right now.
The "couldn't be worse" argument is tried, and sort of wrong. It could be worse - it could be Will Rhymes.
You're also leaving out that the majority of Raburn's roaming around the field has occurred with Martinez and Ordonez hurt - so they probably HAVE neded his bat in the lineup.
What exactly did Rhymes do to you? He's not great, but his stint last year showed a guy with major league potential: 191 AB, .304/.350/.414. He basically hasn't been given a chance to repeat it this year being benched after 8 games. It seems like you're saying, with all your posts, that everyone is going to be ok, and small sample size, except for Rhymes, that guy is just awful. I don't get it.
Yes, we've needed Raburn's bat when Ordonez and Martinez haven't been able to go, but not because he's been great, but because he's better than Kelly.
Raburn has the second highest K% in the league. He isn't hitting for average. He isn't hitting for power. If we're not getting much out of him, and we're hampering his defense, lets let a true prospect play at second base everyday.
I think you're missing sample size here.
Over his last 900 AB's, Raburn has shown himself to be a well above-average major league hitter, and perfectly acceptable for a corner OF spot. I don't care what his 70 AB's this year say.
Rhymes, in the MINORS OPS'd .728. in 6 years. That's far more significant than your 119 AB stat. Raburn has OPS'd .800 in the majors.
Rhymes is, best scenario, Ryan Theriot without the speed.
Almost all of Raburn's damage has been done in the second half. It's not completely his fault because his at-bats have been relatively spare the past few seasons, but looking at the splits there's a pretty clear descrepancy in when he hits and when he doesn't.
Do you seriously think that he is, naturally, a better hitter in August? That's completely inexplicable.
He produces more in July and August because...HE HAS PLAYED MORE.
Last year:
April-June: 161 AB
July/Aug: 192
What I see is a guy that hits better when he plays everyday than when he plays sporadically.
April 29th, 2011 at 12:31 PM ^
Look at his career splits. Look at the game discrepancies each season (most of which aren't that drastic). You ever heard of Adam LaRoche? Dan Haren? There are plenty of players whose career splits indicate a clear discrepancy in performance in a given time period.
Why do you think they play him more later in the season? What moron manager would sit a player more during the first half of the year if they knew he could produce a 1+ OPS with consistent at-bats? Is it just a coincidence that for the last three seasons he's found lots of playing time after the All-Star Break?
He'll hover between .240 and .260 until late June and have another great second half. I mean, I know you know so much more than anybody and look like you're a total Tigers apologist, but after following Raburn, I can't say I'm totally shocked that we're a month through the season and he's sitting with a sub-.300 OBP with next to no production outside of a short 3 game spurt last week.
April 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM ^
Classy job!
I'm not saying you're flat-out wrong, but you're choosing to attribute his performance to one thing and not another, both of which are possible.
He has played better late in seasons, yes.
He has also played better when he plays regularly.
Not coincidentally, late in seasons has been when he's allowed to play regularly.
And I'm not a Tiger apologist. What I am is someone who doesn't scream hysterically everytime the team drops 3 game straight and call for the mass-firings of the people that single-handedly moved the franchise from being the very worst in major league baseball.
April 29th, 2011 at 12:56 PM ^
Just look at Verlander. There are huge differences in his performance in different months of the season.
I'm not calling for the firings of anyone at all. I definitely disagree with some of Leyland's decision making, and DD should stick to making trades and stay away from FAs (semi-sarcastic, but it hurts to watch Philly and see Polanco continue to rake while Inge does what Inge does, especially when they're getting paid almost the same amount), but I'm usually the voice of reason compared to most of the people I know that follow the team. I'm not worried about their "ruff" start.
B. Inge is by far one of the worst players on the team. He cannot hit to save his life. To me, it seems like he tries to hit home runs every single time he is up at the plate. I would rather have a average defensive third basemen that can hit .240 than Inge.
Verlander to me is not a "true" number one pitcher. I feel that Verlander doesn't go too far into the ball game. It seems like that he reaches 100 pitches or so around the 5th or 6th inning. If he is a "number one pitcher" in comparison to MLB, I'd rank him somewhere around the middle (I assume that the Phillies have 3 number 1 pitchers). But I guess for the Tigers, he is the best pitcher we have. Definately an area we could upgrade.
I share your frustrations on Inge, I've been complaining for years that he's never developed a two-strike approach when batting. He has to few productive outs (unfortunately, something that can be said about multiple Tigers). And now, his power numbers have slipped. Can't do anything about it though, hope he improves.
I disagree on Verlander. He's a number one guy (who we're not having to pay Yankees money to keep), and if Oliver develops as we hope he does, we have the makings of a very solid, young pitching staff.
I think Rod Allen hypes Verlander way tooooo much. I guess comparing Verlander to the Holliday's, F. Hernandez', Lee's, Oswalt's, he just seems average. It could be that these guys are just that good. It could also come down to the mismanagement of the pitching staff. It seems like, espically last year, that they were left in the games just a bit tad too long.
You said 2 posts up that Verlander doesn't last in games.
Now you're complaining he's left in too long?
April 29th, 2011 at 12:33 PM ^
Pitch count vs. innings pitched. Obviously it's possible for a manager to leave a pitcher in too long with him throwing too many pitches while the pitcher is unable to throw deep into the game. Sometimes this is the case for Verlander when he goes 6 innings and throws 120 pitches.
Further proof they are, again, destined for .500
which started players batting under .180 at the beginning of the game 1, 2, and 3 in the lineup. Those players have struck out 6 times combined today, and the game isn't over yet. Atrocious. You know something needs to be fixed when Alex Avila is third on the team (behing Cabrera and Boesch) in batting average at .303, and the only other starter batting above .208 is Ryan Rayburn, at .240. Ridiculous.
is that 6 guys have OBPs lower than .300.
The biggest problem is that people here are acting like 3 weeks of statistics means a goddam thing. They don't.
Some statistics after three weeks show a trend that will continue throughout the rest of the season, and some mean absolutely nothing. The trouble is being able to tell them apart.
Sure, but if you can't separate the signal from the noise then the numbers are meaningless.
is that walk and K rates normalize faster than most other stats.
How about this: the Tigers have like six regular contributors who are hitting WAY below their career averages, AND the pitching staff hasn't exactly blown the doors off the place ...
...and the team is still around .500.
Things will be fine, people. Things regress to the mean eventually.
I do think something needs to be done in order for Jackson to get his confidence back. But a healthy Ordonez (assuming that's possible) and Martinez significantly changes the lineup.
maybe we'll be wildly inconsistent for the first half of the year then go on a tear in the second half. I'd rather get the painful losing streaks out of the way early.