Question some friends and I were debating:
Would you be willing to have the most corrupt program in college football if it meant multiple national championships and becoming the most dominant program in the nation?
We almost did that in basketball. It's taken us 20 years to get over it... and we're still not.
1) Got caught
2) Hired a terrible replacement coach.
We did not have the most corrupt program in college basketball because we gave a shit and stopped doing it once caught.
weren't the MOST corrupt. There are other programs that would have (and did) hide those type of violations, and we didn't.
IS this even up for debate?
No I would rather wait longer and do it the right way.
And not just in football. In any field I would rather fail working hard and doing things the right way than cheat in order to succeed.
you guys are crazy....... rings on rings on rings!!
trolling? so my opinion doesn't deserve to be visible simply because it differs from the majority's opinion? What a shame...
Did you even state an opinion? Your post was labeled trolling because it's nonsensical.
What the hell are you talking about? It's december and I have not been trolling the great lakes since September. It's cold out fergodsakes.
Nope. Glory is fleeting when it is stolen. It is eternal when it is won. Just ask Jim Tressel.
Here is the problem with bringing Jim Tressel into this: He doesn't give a fuck. It doesn't even register with him that he ever did anything wrong. This "glory is fleeting when stolen" stuff is for people with a conscience. When we're talking about "most corrupt program" we're talking about having (and being) people that, when caught, convince themselves that we're not the problem, it's those people trying to tear us down that are the problem.
Ask Jim Tressel, or the average Buckeye, and he'll say, "Corrupt? We weren't corrupt. The glory was stolen from us."
If I could upvote this I would. Exactly the right response. We remember Bo fondly because of what he built out of honesty and hard work. In 10 years, no one will remember the Vest as anything but a crook (except for the most dyed-in-wool fans of Ohio).
If you still have doubts, go watch the Fab Five documentary again. Were you sadder when you watched C Webb call the timeout, or when you saw the banners sitting on a shelf? It was definitely the latter for me.
EDIT: my response is to the "ask Jim Tressel" post, not the response below it. Not sure if that was clear given the sequence of how these comments popped up.
This is Michigan Forgodsakes.
missed it by... that much
Let's put it this way: Knowing what I know right now about the two men, I'd rather have had Jerry Kill's 2011 season than Jim Tressel's 2002 season.
No. (Then I'd be just like tOSU fans.)
It never works out for "long term" for those types of programs. And it goes against our "tradition" Were Michigan Fergodsakes.
This isn't Nam or C-Bus/Tuscaloosa.
Is this a serious question?
Halfway. Obviously Ohio State sold their soul after Cooper. And you see Auburn, Alabama, and the SEC cheating, but how far in this landscape of college football would you have Michigan go to be a national title contender every year?
It's not like kids go to Stillwater and Tuscaloosa because they love the city...
....flay myself with a paring knife while whistling Steven Sondheim tunes.
I thought the movie was pretty good.
.....I suppose I would have to flay myself while whistling "Putting It Together" from "Sunday In The Park With George".
Auburn says yes.
If say I was a small school like EMU or something, I'd ball out. You're never going to compete with the big boys (look at Boise, all those years of work and they best they can manage is some Zombie Big East action). Also it takes the NCAA at least a half decade to notice improper benefits. So I'd do whatever it took to score the recruits and pay whatever it cost. Better to be Miami and live briefly in glory than suffer through the long depressing life of Akron.
So as a small school, yeah I'd go for all the style points and go down later in flames. At least my fans would get to see some awesome games before my entire coaching staff ran for the NFL and I got the death penalty.
(I'd actually kind of respect any MAC school that had the guts to do this.)
Speaking as a fan of EMU also, I would not want to see EMU go this road. In fact one of the things I like about English is that he seems to be doing this the right way. EMU will never be a power on the scale of Boise but it might end up a power in the MAC.
If you could alter Michigan's football history by either undoing the practicegate scandal or the App St loss, which would you undo?
My answer would be consistent.
than win without them.
This is Michigan, fergodsakes.
... it did turn out so well for SMU.
I think the pretense of your question is a little wack. If you have the most corrupt program in the country and win national championships, the NCAA will take notice. If you are as corrupt as you lay out, then the NCAA will take you to task and make you vacate said wins. So, in the end, not only have you not won anything (by virtue of vacating), but you've just blown up your program.
Even if that wasn't the case, I think we Michigan folks hold ourselves to high standards, both academically and professionally. It's why we are so arrogant (and AWESOME!). It would work quite counter to our image to act in a way inconsident and unbecoming with our ideals.
So... fuck no.
Of course they'll notice, but the question is, will they do anything about it?
I wouldn't do it at Michigan, but I think for most of 1-A, I think you'd find more people willing to than not.
I have to believe this was posted somewhere here but I follow this site pretty closely and I never saw anything about this. www.ozone.net had a post from Dec 1 saying the NCAA granted OSU a waiver to have more coaches than allowed during the transition period. But don't worry, it's totally fair because Meyer and the new folks will only be recruiting whiel Fickell and the old staff do most of the coaching for teh bowl game. This is an effing joke. First, because why would the NCAA do anything to reward OSU in terms of how they handle a mess created by their own violation of NCAA rules. Second, wouldn't all schools like to have extra coaches for recruiting? This is NCAA enabling cheaters, in fact rewarding them.
I'm pretty sure that's standard practice. RR was recruiting while LC was still the "interim" coach.
You are probably right. I guess most of my beef with it is that OSU's coaching change was a direct result of OSU violating the NCAA's own rules. And now OSU has gone to the NCAA, saying, "We've had to make this coaching change it is causing us some problems, can we have a waiver."
Although them firing Bollman in order to have Meyer recruit might actually make Ohio fans happier, so at least we've got that going for us.
No...short term is never the answer
"Question some friends and I were debating"
I hope you were on the "No, fergodsake" side.
I think it's interesting to ask since obviously cheating works.
I guess my answer would be hookers and abortions for MNCs = HELL NO. Booster money to stars who "don't know about it" and no consequences for NCs, I could probably get behind that. I don't see any point in getting all high and mighty unless somebody is being legitimately victimized. There's a certain gamesmanship to the harmless cheating. Something about "then you ain't trying."
were these friends Buckeyes by any chance?
No, they can read.
He said they were debating, and that takes some sort of brain power to form legitimate arguments. When have you ever heard of a tsio fan with brain power. That's an oxymoron in itself.
It's still happening in columbus as we type and despite this season seems to be working for them. The NCAA will be completely powerless to stop it after they let osu off the hook and I won't be surprised to see a USC lawsuit pop up. Cheating is now the rule, not the isolated exception. It's play by the new rules or become ND.
Eventually the SEC and other schools will be caught if they are indeed cheating (they probably are but who knows fo sure?) and it will just validate all of the programs that stayed straight throughout all the years. So..... No
Auburn, osu, and Oregon all were caught and although we don't know everything about Oregon yet, signs point to all 3 being let off. Getting "caught" is now a minor inconvenience rather than a reason for true concern. A little plausible deniability as they call it, maybe a scapegoat goes down and the school uses the millions from all the cheating to hire another big money coach and nothing really changes. If you believe the SEC is headed for a collective downfall, you're in for a huge disappointing surprise.
That was the problem, the only had a Miss St guy. OSU still is awaiting punishment, and who knows about Oregon.
I'd much rather make minimum wage honestly than rob people blind and sit in my mansion with my millions.
To even ask the question is bad. It reminds me of that story told of Winston Churchill:
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill! Well, I suppose -- we would have to discuss terms, naturally.
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?
Churchill: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
Success via cheating is no success. Michigan is not a woman of negotiable affection. If Michigan is Michigan, this should never be even asked. I would sooner disband the team and go the way of the University of Chicago then win because of deliberately cheating. Honestly, Michigan already has a huge advantage, given it's history, resouces, buildings, etc. Were Michigan to ever go this route, I would personally disassociate myself from the school and the program.
Well I think the OP got his answer...
People dont want to admit it, but everybody has their price. If the price for becoming the most dominant program in the world is to run it fast and loose. So long as we don't get caught I'm cool with it. Fuck, it's better than losing.
Projecting your own faults onto others is not a valid form of argument.
You're either very dumb or lying.
...but a winning football team is less than that price.
So if I'm laying the wood to your GF or wife, as long as you don't know it's OK.
In my experience, selfish narcissists always assume that everyone else is just as selfish as they are, and they flip out whenever anyone argues that this isn't the case.
At question here is the basic ethical framework. To over-simplify, there are two basic choices:
In the crassest form, you could ask: if Michigan was guaranteed multiple national championships, and further guaranteed that no one would ever know what they had done, would it be worth it to be the most corrupt team out there?
These are horrendous questions, and I think most of us hope we have the character and backbone to stand for the right thing, when we are under this kind of pressure. Because of the difficulty to maintain a conspiracy and keep full silence, I think that in practical terms, it would be almost impossible to GUARANTEE there would be no repercussions.
Having said that, regardless of the potential benefit, and regardless of the minimal to non-existent cost, I would fervently hope Michigan never compromises in this way.
I derive little to no intrinsic benefit from "doing the right thing" simply for the sake of doing it. I suppose some people do, maybe I'm a sociopath. I get no rush from helping people, or team building or any of that bullshit. Maybe I wan't hugged enough as a child. Oh well, so be it.
Maybe a hug will help now?
Cmon, man, adjust your morals. Q- to what extent could U of M go to win a National Title with you being, "I'm ok with it, we won." Qualifiers- example 1- they never get caught but you know about it, example 2- they get caught in similar fashion to our bball team did.
There's no "maybe" about it. You are.
Not to get too PHIL 001 but I really hate that we (including myself) have all bought into the NCAA definitions of corrupt and right and wrong. Put it this way, if Michigan had a rich alumni who was willing to pay whatever it took for players and it wasn't against the NCAA rules - then I would have absolutely no problem with giving cars, tatoos, boats or whatever to these kids if it meant winning (as long as there were no reprecussions on the kids for losing). In that case, losing with "honor" would just be stupid/meaningless and would only mean that we didn't have the financial resources to win ... so we would instead be playing the bulls*** moral self righteousness card. But since the NCAA says paying players = against the rules ... we now view paying players = corrupt. So I guess in response to the OP I would say that if we could cheat and be a powerhouse and never get caught then I would be fine with it ... because the rules are stupid. Rules don't (or shouldn't) make an action right or wrong. We should make rules against things that are wrong. Big difference.
I see what you're saying, but that's a weak position. How do you define what is "wrong," so that you can make rules against it? And what happens when your definition of what's wrong is different from mine? It's impossible to get anywhere with that mindset.
I must say that up to this season I kinda nourished hopes that the B1G might in the near term establish itself--a little bit like the Ivy League--as a high-class antidote to the SEC. OSU and the Free Press (perhaps) have kinda scotched that idea, at least for awhile, along with our commissioner, whose conduct in helping OSU into the Fiesta with all players and then comparing us WITH OSU has made me think it's time for him to go.
We done good in getting Nebraska, I can see why ND would be too compelling to turn down even tho I hate them, but from there. . . let's chill and just build this thing up with a little integrity.
Wait, is that gonna be possible with Pope Urban at the helm in Cbus? I'm not so sure.
No. And that's exactly why I don't get all warm and fuzzy when the name Chris Webber is mentioned. It's also why I don't make excuses for the entire Ed Martin Fiasco, and don't give a bleep if Webber is ever allowed into Crisler Arena again.
AND becoming the most dominant program in the history of programs...ABSOLUTELY.
Anyone you are debating this with doesn't deserve to be debated with.
We can leave that for O Lie O
NO, Never, I would rather lose a lot knowing that I supported a clean program.
Would you torture your neighbor's dog if it guaranteed a national championship?
Would you burn your own mother with cigarettes if it guaranteed two national championships?
Would you cut your own dick off if it guaranteed 10 national championships?
I'm married so that means I don't get to use it anyway... Might as well get something for it...
Would you be willing to work for a drug cartel if the pay was good?
What a crazy thread. My question: Would you be willing to have everyone think you're a total asshole if it meant you could hook up with any hot girl you wanted?
Back in the day when I went to bars, from my obsevatios the answer to your question seemed to be a resounding yes.
But hell yeah.
being squeaky clean gets you no where.
I want a level playing field where all schools follow the same rules or suffer harsh consequences. As long the Bamas, LSUs, OSUs, USCs and Auburns of the world can cheat on middlishish to bad levels and win NCs while we get 10-2 or 9-3 every year, then I say we push the envelope a little. Sign a couple to a few more than the rule says until the NCAA stops us.
No money or recruiting violations or fake jobs or that crap, but a few extra signees might help level the field. The problem is all these other schools are doing is enticing the best players with $$ and promises and then we get the good ones, not necessarily the best ones and we keep faqlling farther behind. And when the four-team playoff starts next season, we will be left out b/c Bama, LSU and USC and someone else will be there b/c they pushed the limits without pissing off the NCAA.
Generally speaking, following the rules to the letter means you will be second or fifth at best. That's just the landscape of the game. We have to find a way to get a couple of five-star difference makers each year and 20+ great four stars to compete with the SEC and Big 12. That's just the reality of the situation.
and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds. The tradition and the winged helmet mean a lot, but so do NCs. Kids want to win and get to the next level and if the best kids gravitate to the same six or seven schools each year, that gap will widen and those that don't push the limits a little will become Boise, and MSU when it comes to getting ranked high enough to play for the NC.
Being able to claim you do things the right way and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds.
Why does this matter? If you knew you could get away with stealing something, would you do it? Most people still wouldn't, because integrity has nothing to do with others' perception.
Ugh. No! Who are you, an Ohio spy? Seriously dude.
a little differently.
Is Michigan a football team that happens to have a University associated with it, or is Michigan a University that happens to have a football team. Should success on the football field be incorporated into the university's mission statement?
Given the choice, I would rather the University of Michigan go the way of the University of Chicago or the Ivies than house a corrupt program that is the antithesis of what the university is supposed to stand for.
No. This Is Michigan Fergodsakes!!
D. All of the above.
Priority 1 is integrity. Priority 2 is winning.
If Michigan was Auburn-style cheating, and got caught/let off the hook as they are, I bet most here would still be fine with it as long as there was national titles coming in every year.
Everyone wants to take a moral high-ground, but there is pushing the envelope already going on, if you think not you're incredibly naive. I would push the envelope a little further without going SEC-style, but if I was a school like Syracuse, I'd be totally for it (which is where the genesis of the debate came from).
You should probably just speak for yourself. I think this thread shows that most here would not be fine with it, unless you're implying most of us are liars as well as assholes.
I'll take 1 National Title every 50 years if it means kids are being taugt the important lessons of life, which is what college football is supposed to be about. But thats the sad nature of the game now. Unless Michigan stocks up on juiced d lineman (like LSU, Bama and Florida) we won't win like they do. Although the Big Ten probalby has a bunch of juiced olineman. Cheating is part of life and you have to accept being average if you dont want to cheat.
As Brian stated:
OSU expects to win a NC every year
ND expects to win every game
Michigan people expect an intelligent conversation . . . .with integrity.
This thread gives me the FEAR.
I honestly only clicked on this thread to test my photo embedding skills with a pitcture of Miami's Jimmy Johnson