So where do we think Little Butch will end up? I have thought all along we would need him to play deep safety to play clean up for the youngsters, but looking at the CB depth and experience compared to safety I think he stays at CB. I'm really torn on what I think it's best. The only thing I'm certain of is RR has to think himself, well that was another lucky break I got here at Michigan not getting back my 2 starting corners back before their eligibility was up.
Athleticism can make up for inexperience at cornerback.
At safety, being out of position spells certain death.
Woolfolk will be a safety. There's no doubt in my mind.
I thought for sure safety as well, but Williams, Kovacks actually started last year and Vlad at least got on the field last year and will have went thru 2 springs with us where at CB due to the circumstances with Warren, Witty and Boo Boo are only experienced player would be JT Floyd and Turners hype. I would think some of it depends on Turners and Emiliens development, if the coaches are convinced 1 or the other will be a star they probably would feel better moving him. As nice as it is having a stud safety I 'm not sure you can be an effective defense with zero corners that have a chance of loking down a WR.
I agree with Magnus. The main goal of Michigan's secondary in 2010 is going to be to avoid giving up the big plays. For that reason, we need Woolfolk at safety even if Emilien and Williams are further along in their development than Turner, Floyd, and Christian. But this is an interesting point to dscuss.
Kovacs didn't play until the Notre Dame game, when Williams got hurt. They were both originally free safeties. AFAIK, Emilien only played special teams; if he did play defense, it was probably only against DSU. Woolfolk only moved to corner when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel and didn't want to burn Turner's redshirt.
After Woolfolk moved, the defense took a nose dive. With the failures of both Williams and Kovacs at the deep safety position - and the notion that both were better at free safety in the first place - that doesn't leave many choices at strong safety.
Cornerback will have a lot of bodies without much experience, but Woolfolk should be able to alleviate some of those issues with his speed and positioning. He played well at cornerback last year, and the only time he really got burned at safety was that one play against WMU in the first game. (He also failed to tackle Larry Caper on that GW touchdown run, but he had a bum shoulder at the time.)
You must heal the middle of this defense first, and that means Woolfolk to safety. You are absolutely right about the nose dive after he moved to corner.
Ideally, probably at safety...but with Boo Boo definitely out, I don't know. Secondary depth is going to be a key factor for next year's success or failure--and perhaps the current staff's future at Michigan.
Man, I never thought I'd write that.
I think (as Magnus convinced me in a related thread a couple weeks ago) that he starts at SS. However, that the final decision will not come until we find out if Christian can start at CB and/or M.Robinson can start at FS. We need at least one of those guys to step in right away and secure their spot... otherwise it's going to be musical chairs back there again until we find the right combination along side Turner at CB and Woolfolk at either.
don't forget about Vlad. He said he can play both FS and SS. Hopefully he can make good on what he said and step-up to be a starter this season.
I'm not worried about the FS position. Kovacs played well there, Mike Williams has potential, and we have a couple young guys like Emilien, Robinson, and Carvin Johnson. I think one of the five will step up to play well enough. Honestly, other than one option play against Indiana, Kovacs didn't hurt us too badly from the FS position. He was a liability at the SS position, but that's not a position he should be playing in the first place.
why are you the only one that sees it like it is? its not rocket science everybody. If you want to know if safeties play well, watch them, identify alignment, coverage, and responsibility, and execution; don't watch the ball.
I believe this is the first nice thing you've said to/about me.
Are defense was better when he was at Strong Safety. You would rather have a more experienced player at safety than corner.
Are eyes are bleeding now...
But agree with the poster and the thread that we want the experience at safety.
Woolfolk is the only person on the entire team who has the skill set to play Free Safety...hopefully other ppl step up at CB so he can stick to FS
In this defense, the deep safety is the strong safety. Woolfolk is/was a SS.
magnus has explained that in our defense the SS is the deep safty and the FS is the in the box safty to about 10 people lol i feel bad for you magnus!!!
And yet you can't seem to spell "safety" correctly, despite it being typed correctly immediately above...
GERG is a complicated mad scientist: Free Safeties that play in the box, Strong safeties that are responsible for the deep middle, OLB-Quicks that play exactly where DEs usually play, SLBs that look and play like SS shifted to the strong side.
Jon Chait compiled the stats of how the defense performed with him at safety and with him at CB (sorry, I'm too lazy to find the link) and the defense went from bad to absolutely awful when he went from safety to CB...The only satisfying answer to this situation involves a clone or replicant of Woolfolk playing along side the original.
I think Troy moves to CB just because we literally don't have any non-freshmen bodies at the spot opposite of JT Turner (unless you wanna roll with Floyd out there).
This future secondary has blessed me with chronic nightmares.
Speaking of JT Turner, has anyone heard anything about his development? In the end it will probably be a good thing that he red-shirted, but is the fact that he didnt see the field last season despite terrible lack of depth (and talent) a bad sign.
He was great on the scout team. He red-shirted b/c of the academic issue that didn't allow him to join the team on time. The coaches (wisely, in my view) didn't want to use up a year of eligilibity when he may have only been ready to play in the 2nd half of the season...So, no, I wouldn't worry about him being red-shirted.
Maybe let's look at is as we want our four best DBs to play. Let's also assume that Woolfolk, Turner, and Kovacs are currently our best three, at least as of the end of last year. So who joins them? It comes down to whether the coaching staff wants Vlad or Cullen out there -- are we better with Vlad at safety and Woolfolk at corner, or Cullen at corner and Woolfolk at safety? This depends on which of Vlad or Cullen develop and look like being able to contribute the fastest. Vlad has a year in the system (and another year removed from blown ACL) so that is a plus for him. But Cullen comes in at a position where true freshmen can contribute, unlike safety, which for a variety of reasons favors experience over raw talent. So I say it is a toss up now.
I don't like any scenario that comes to the conclusion (or assupmtion) that Kovacs is one of our three best DB's. No offense to him whatsoever, but we should have a handful of scholarship safeties on the teams in a couple of days and I am hoping that at least one of them (hopefully all of them) blow Kovacs off the depth chart (again, not that I don't like him, I just don't like UM having to play walk-on safeties....ever).
I realize that you are basing your post on "as of the end of last year" but I am going to remain hopeful that our FS will come from one of our Freshmen being miles ahead of the curve or VE realizing the potential we all saw for him.
I'm guessing we will see Woolfolk and Emilien in the Safety spots, with Turner holding down a CB position while Floyd and Cullen fight it out for the other starting spot.
create a logjam behind Vladimir and Woolfolk (assuming Sean Parker commits, you've got Parker, Carvin, Vinopal, Williams, Marvin Robinson and Kovacs behind the starters.)
However, this situation would only leave the loser of Christian/Floyd, Avery and Talbott as CB backups.
If Parker / Emilien can play deep safety, Woolfolk will be at CB.
What's worse - a logjam at a position or losing because your safeties have never played before?
If worse came to worse, Woolfolk could move to corner again.
With Woolfolks' speed, why not look at him to move to Browns' position and play SLB. This is all dependant upon what surprises we are all in store for on NSD. That is if everyone that verbally committed to us still signs with us, as well as, who else comes on board that we are not already throwing in the mix. With the last two seasons of recruits there has to be at least some talent out there we can play and be competetive with. These kids (minus the new recruits) have at one year under their belts now, playing in this D system rather on the scout team or in game situation. I strongly feel that will pay dividends this year on the field.
about someone who hasn't been mentioned at all here:
I think a rational way to look at the defensive secondary situation is how can the coaches adequately cover the positions. Taking into account experience (despite what most posters seem to think, players DO get better when they're developed, experienced and not true freshmen).
Most everyone is operating under the assumption that Justin Turner plays one of the CB positions, and that Cullen Christian would be most effective initially as the third corner.
A combination of Marvin Robinson / Jordan Kovacs would probably be effective at the close safety position (despite what most people tend to believe, Kovacs will be better than last year and plays that close position well).
A combination of Vlad Emilien / Sean Parker may very well play the deep safety position effectively. Of course we won't know that until the games start, but that seems a rational situation.
Backup safeties beyond the two deep: Vinopal, Carvin, M. Williams (and who is to say Williams won't dramatically improve in his junior year?).
I think that there are enough bodies at the safety spots to allow Woolfolk to join Turner at the CB spots, with Christian, Avery, JT Floyd and Talbott as backups. That's the only rational way I look at the depth charts and take that Teric Jones was switched back to the offense - that Woolfolk and Turner are the CBs.
There's no way that our top two strong safeties will be a redshirt freshman who never played defense last year (Emilien) and a true freshman who won't get to Ann Arbor until summer (Parker). They'll put Mike Williams there before they let that happen.
On other sites it has been asserted that Parker has been told he'd have started for Michigan LAST year.
That doesn't surprise me.
Our starting SS last year was divided up between Kovacs and Williams once Woolfolk moved to corner.
Vlad was not given a redshirt
Yeah, I misspoke. Thanks for catching that. He played special teams.
I'm going to bet the coaches aren't sure of the answer to this one right now. I think there will be some good competition in spring and fall practice and Woolfolk is going to go where we need him the most. I do think Kovaks and Turner will probably start so it probably depends on whether a CB or SS recruit steps up into a starting role.
Losing Cissoko was a bad break. Losing Warren was to be expected. Getting him back would have been a lucky break.
Now that we're all aware of how horribly inexperienced our defensive backfield will be, let me ask this question:
Who starts at SLB (S. Brown's post) in 2010... basically the same issue... someone with zero game experience at that position (considering Brown took almost every snap at SLB last year).
Besides Jones and Hawthorne, is there anyone else on the roster or in this recruiting class fit for SLB?
Jones, Hawthorne, and Furman are probably the only SAMs who will be on the roster, barring a position switch (perhaps Cam Gordon?). I'd expect Jones to win that battle.
According to Sam Webb and Rivals. Although personally I would rather see him stay at Safety (because he's good, not because we have no other choice).
Rivals' national site has ranked Robinson as an OLB, but The Wolverine (which is specific to Michigan) has said repeatedly that he's being brought in to play FS.
He has been recruited as a FS but I have the feeling that he will be in the discussion at SAM before the season starts if we land Parker and Dorsey (looking decent there). Mike Jones was already practicing with Hopson and the ILBs during the second half of the season so I doubt you see him move back to SAM once Carvin, Marvin, and Furman make it on to campus.
The guys at The Wolverine say that Mike Jones is a SAM.
They are working with dated information, I watched him practice with Hopson and the ILBs from the DSU game onward (he was with the SAMs before then). He is still skinny for the WILL spot (under 210lbs according the latest info) but I think an offseason of S&C and practice will see him strongly challenging Mouton for the starting spot if Mouton doesn't really step up his game. I can see he and Bell growing into MIKES but they aren't there yet.
I got to believe Jones and Hawthorne are going to slip into the SAM role, unless Marvin Robinson blows their socks off and they can convince him to move there like Stevie Brown did from safety before. I gotta believe Marvin Robinson would be awesome in that position.
That said, in the backfield, I just don't see how we don't keep Woolfork at CB. We have NO EXPERIENCE THERE. I can't imagine that they would like Floyd and Turner be the CB starters. This assumes someone doesn't come in and look like an absolute stud.
Safety is a more pivotal position than Corner. If your Safeties are bad the entire defense falls apart, if your Corners are patchy you can cover that up with certain types of coverage packages. Which is why I would be stunned by Woolfolk being anywhere but deep Safety in the Fall.
His name is Woolfolk. "Folk" as in people, not "fork" as in a dining utensil.
You can thank the BTN for that. Every time I heard the announcer (Larrivee?) call him Woolfork I imagined god killing a kitten.
Let's make this thread sticky and revisit for the Spring Game. We have some guys entrenched in each camp. Magnus is struggling for points so I'll email Brian to see if the correct predictor can get 250pt bonus.
Woolfolk plays deep safety, one of the toughest positions to play on defense. He is the experienced, athletic senior. The free safety will be Vlad, Kovacs, MW, or one of the freshman, whoever impresses the most. The corners will be Turner on one side, and the best out of Floyd and the freshman. This makes the most sense. Yes, it creates a log jam at safety, especially if everyone commits. But one of the safeties will be a senior, and one of them probably won't pan out like we think.
I agree and I will add that I believe that our secondary takes a step back in 2011 unless we are able to move one or both of JT Turner or Cullen Christian to SS OR we land Demar Dorsey. With us looking strong for Parker and having guys like Vlad, Marvin, and Carvin (the two Frosh will at least start at FS) at FS as well I am not nearly as worried about our FS depth from here on out. That said, our depth at SS is scary thin with Woolfolk gone. While I think Vlad and Parker could both play SS they would be less than ideal due to their lack of elite speed and Vinopal isn't the type of player I would want to build the SS position around. I really really hope some of the CBs step up so JT Turner or CC can move to SS (where I see them as elite players rather than just very good CBs) AND we land Demar Dorsey who we can take the time to groom for the spot
Why do you think that Tuner and CC will be elite safeties and not elite CBs? I think that they are both tall CB's, which might make them stiffer than shorter CBs. I heard that shorter players tend to have more flexible and fluid hips. But there are exceptions to every rule.
He tackles fairly well.
I'd like to see you tackle with a sprained shoulder.
me feel sad inside when I watch the video
Sparty better enjoy that moment, because it will be a long time before it happens again.
He had a bum shoulder at that point which Magnus touched on, say 25 posts before this.....