enough of this kid shit, at least half of them are in their fucking 20s, they aren't kids
he grew a beard
enough of this kid shit, at least half of them are in their fucking 20s, they aren't kids
Times are strange when we see posts like this from TWID. Thoughtful thoughts, though, and a welcome calming influence in these confusing days.
in the world makes you think the future is brighter under Hoke?
not his in-game coaching (sorry, hand clapping)
not his clock/time out manegement
how about his unparalleled excelence in D-line development, particularly pass rushing?
He recruits well, fantastically well so far. but that is it. will it last if this trajectory continues?
How in the world can mighty Akron play us to a standstill with 1% of the recruiting resources?
Borges has to 1st on Dantonio's Christmas card list!
I give Hoke 50% of the credit for going after Mattison as DC and the other 50% to Dave Brandon for learning from his previous blunder and opening the checkbook to hire Mattison.
I'm also putting 100% of the Borges misery on Hoke. He's responsible for the actions of his subordinates. Make them improve, or replace them. I'm willing to wait til the end of the season (muttering) but what miracles will Al have to pull out of his ass to keep his job?
For any of you who like Hoke but have had it with Borges, what should Brandon do if Hoke won't make any changes?
I agree with Grow's assesment. funk=gibson, Borges=GERG . at least this time I bet Brandon is willing to throw some $ around to help.
@Mgro - except Hoke didn't have the success RRod had before coming here....which makes him worse than RRod in my opinion.
Rich Rod trajectory vs Brady's - Three years in
2008: 3-9 (Lloyd's players for the most part)
2001: 11 - 2 (Rich's players for the most part)
2013: 6-3 (and heading down)
So we agree that Hoke is worse than RRod? Good.
as you argue trajectory. The only problem with your argument is
11 + 8 > 3 + 5 + 7
Hoke could literally have gone winless this year and still have four more wins than RR in the same amount of time.
Point is, three years is just not an adequate sample size for either coach. RR is probably better than that. But just the same, who the heck really knows how good or not Hoke will turn out in the next season or two.
The fact that he has coached an 11-win season has to count for something, though.
actually 2013 and 2014 will be the season with mostly RichRod's players. In 2011 most of the upperclassmen would have come from Carr's last class.
Any "trajectory" argument about RR needs to take into account that Michigan went 9-4 the year before he arrived. We dropped off a cliff his first year, and then even after getting better the next two years, we were still worse than we ever were under Carr.
If you want to compare the two, Hoke's first two seasons were better than any season RR had, and this year he only needs one victory to match RR's best season.
Just let the RR stuff die already.
We should be able to let RR die. Unfortunately, he left the cupboard bare, as the Lloyd Car haters so often repeated. Take a look at the rosters and depth, and you tel me which team is more bare, this one RR's first.
2008 was miles worse off depth and talent wise over team 134 and it's not even close.
that Carr left more than RR did?
on defense maybe. Carr left next to nothing on O, at least nothing applicable to one of the godfathers of the spread that was hired.
He built a very good O and hamstrung (with a little AD help) his own D
but he left a fine O for Hoke to scatch his head at.
I also think Mattison's praiseworthy turnaround spoke to the fact that there WAS talent on D being horribly underutilized.
still think Carr left a fuller cupboard than RR after leaving?
Who would you rather have been left with . . .Threet/Sheridan or Robinson/Gardner
"Who would you rather have been left with . . .Threet/Sheridan or Robinson/Gardner"
That's pretty much the point. Under RR recruiting energy was very much focused on a small number of critical players like Pryor and Denard. There wouldn't be anything wrong with that, I suppose, if any attempt had been made to fill out the classes with even minimal-quality recruits in sufficient numbers to keep a program alive.
Who would you rather have been left with: Dorrestein/Schilling/Huyge/Molk or Bryant/.../.../...?
That's one lineman from two recruiting classes. How do you maintain a program with one scholarship lineman in two years? At that rate you'd only have 2 1/2 on a roster. The rules require 5.
And hell, Bryant is constantly injured. It wouldn't even surprise me if didn't play next year.
Why bum me out like that?
All fan message boards are filled with "We know Coach X will never, ever change" rants after a loss. In reality, most coaches will make changes when the pressure gets strong enough. Lloyd Carr went through five OCs and three DCs in 13 years, and he never had a losing season (overall or in Big Ten play). Only really old, really secure guys like JoePa can be expected to stand pat. If the team doesn't improve, I would expect Hoke to let some guys go.
I've been calling Borges worse than GERG for a month now, and Hoke as RR's equivalent since the Akron game. Glad more of you are removing the maize/blue colored glasses and seeing the obvious.
I remember starting a post a month ago asking how many top notch coaches are so hands off of the other side of the football like RR is with defense and Hoke is with offense, and of course I got negged to high hell and it was deleted.
Hoke defends the play calling on offense because HE HAS NO CLUE ABOUT OFFENSE AT ALL. And the part where he can't toss his coordinator under the bus with 4 games left to play (shitbowl included).
Come January Hoke will fire Borges and Funk, but he should already be consulting with Brandon and key advisors re best OC replacement options.
If Hoke does not fire Borges this off season, next year we'll see the string of games with 100,000 in the seats broken. I for one won't tune in. As long as Al Borges remains a Michigan employee, I will continue to love and root for the players and the school, but the football program will be dead to me.
The Hoke is Rich Rod thing is premature at best and absolutely delusional at worst, and if you cannot see why that it's he case we will be unable to have a discussion.
For winning NC and B1G titles. But for winning 8 or 9 games a year and finishing 2nd to 4th in the B1G, he's the coach DB wants.
At least someone is providing an accurate account of what is happening. Not that anyone at Michigan will pay any attention to it....because WE'RE MICHIGAN.
Imagine that! Pretty much everyone on espn was roasting Michigan yesterday, and rightfully so. Now we've moved on the local papers.
Dave Brandon can't be this dumb can he? If no assisstant coaches are let go in the offseason you can bet THOUSANDS of people don't renew their season tickets.
With pretty much everything he's saying here. That's about the most measured column we'll see this season criticizing the team.
The biggest thing for me is the lack of adjustment week to week. Even the Nebraska fans behind me were shocked at how good their defense looked. There was much eye rolling.
Yesterday was the breaking point. People are tired of the same excuses. We are tired of the same mistakes. We are tired of being a has-been in a joke for a conference. And frankly, how can you blame us?
"And I'm sorry, just waiting for young players to get older is not an acceptable answer."
I agree with this 100%.
We canned Rich Rod for having a historically bad defense, which was partially due to having the youngest secondary in the country. At some point, we recognized the problems went beyond youth.
I'm seeing the same parallel on offense. There is no improvement to be seen on the offensive line, though obviously we know youth is a big problem that permeates the line this year. And continuing to insist on running power when you know it isn't working is much like insisting to run the 3-3-5 defense when your DC clearly has no idea how to do it. It's stubbornness for no reason.
I'm not saying Borges should abandon running altogether. But whetever happened to the concept of "passing to open up the run"? Not every pass has to be 30 yards downfield.
He was the bigegst and most wonderful HOMER we've ever had, but this coaching is making Bo's 6-6 1984 season look brilliant. At least that team had an excuse (Harbaugh's broken arm).
As Ufer used to say about LUCK: if we didn't have BAD luck, we wouldn't have had any luck at all.
One can apply the same to our offensive staff: if we didn't have BAD coaching, we would have had any coaching at all.
I'd rather run the game plan from the stands as fans text in the next play than see Big Al call 'em.
Brandstatter saying? From what I understand, he was pretty vocal especially during the Penn State game. . .
Support the kids. Yada yada.
Everything he said was spot on. Has anyone noticed since Kalis/Miller was benched the OL has gotten significantly worse each game?
I noticed that was well. I am surprised they haven't stuck Miller back in. With him in, they were getting the calls right and seemed able to pick up blitzes, even if he was getting shoved a few yards into the backfield. Better than free running linebackers.
I thought the number of bad snaps actually went down after miller was benched, no?
You have to take opposition into account. Those guys were playing CMU, Akron, and UConn - mixed with ND. Devin was on the run all those games except CMU. There was never a stable line. MSU looks like the NFL compared to Akron and Neb looks like the CFL. The only game that there seemed to be some stability was Minnesota and I cannot even remember who was starting that game - Bryant?
Does anyone else just not care any more? There would have been years where I would have been furious about yesterday and the loss would have ruined my weekend. Instead I shrugged, went to get dinner with friends, and went out for a pleasant evening. I'm numb to losing at this stage.
The same way last night. Except I had a 2 1/2 hr drive back home from the game. And will not be renewing my tickets next year.
Ironically all the losing and crappiness has made my relationship with sports all the more healthy. I have wayyy more perspective on things when the team (and coaching) straight up just sucks.
Ditto. I was losing my shit watching the UConn game, but I was kind of laughing at the ineptitude yesterday. My friends say I'm much more tolerable during M games now.
I was pretty irritated, but quickly shrugged it off after Akron.
I was near disgusted after UConn. It festered for a day or so.
I was downright furious watching that debacle of a 4th quarter and OT against Penn State.
Since then? Nothing. I've felt nothing during these games since. I've become numb to the ineptitude.
Although, the occassional flairup of irritation does occur during instances of chickenshit and boneheaded playcalling rears its ugly head. Times like the back to back stretch plays that went absolutely nowhere after amazing field position caused by the muffed punt.
Same here...blessing in disguise.
my wife couldn't even tell that UM lost afterwards, I was in such a normal mood.
Ditto. My girlfriend got home yesterday (she leaves the house during M games) and she said, "Michigan must have won." I told her that we lost to Nebraska because we couldn't move the ball against the worst defense in the B1G. She was pleasantly surprised at my demeanor. I'm almost numb to the losing at this point.
Part of me thinks that nothing will change until:
A. We lose the all time wins/winning% crown.
B. Ohio State passes us in the W/L column for The Game.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think that I am.
UofM football's self image is firmly planted in the past, when in reality, we haven't been competetively relavent (except 2006) since 1997.
"This is Michigan fergodsakes" sums it all up. We can't continue to just show up and expect our opponets to bow down at our feet.
Worse than Purdue or Illinois? Worse than Indiana?
They're fifth in scoring defense, sixth in total defense. Eighth in DFEI if you like the advanced stats, though that was before yesterday and I'll bet they moved up a couple of spots.
I understand being dissppointed after a crappy performance, but it seems like it's worth writing and saying things that are at least possibly, arguably, true.
If that's all you took away from my post, I feel sorry for you.
It is just a game to me now. It used to mean so much more before the RR years. It has been such a long time since I truly got those butterflies and I actually napped through the first half and when I woke up and saw a 10-3 score at the half I just laughed. I don't really have the same love for the team anymore. It's just a habit that I've developed over the years and each loss is making it easier and easier to break that habit.
I care, but I have no expectations for them. Well, I expect they'll put 11 men on the field but thats about it.
1-2 against MSU....1-2 against Nebraska...soon to be 1-2 against OSU.....Terrible road record woeful offense and a team that DOES NOT improve....Its a disturbing trend
A disturbing trend is 1-4 or 1-5. Three games is not enough time for a trend.
However, the road record is an issue. I will grant you that.
IS a disturbing trend
Nebreska is not one of Michigan's big rivals. ND would be a more apt team to include, but oh waite Hoke has a winning record against them so that wouldn't fit your viewpoint.
You can throw in ND, cool. He's 2-1 against ND because of the magical play of Denard Robinson in year one, not because of scheme. He's been outcoached by our rivals in every game. His one victory against MSU came without scoring a TD. His one win against Ohio State came when they were 6-6 and happened because of a missed bomb by their freshman QB.
We hired a guy who never won a conference title and had an overall losing record in 7 years of coaching. He got the job because he liked Michigan alot and knew Lloyd and Dave Brandon after Harbaugh chose the 49ers.
It's fairly clear that Brandon thought he was going to get Harbaugh and didn't have a plan B (which should have been let Rich Rod have one more year and if he fails go after Meyer).
First when you use a phrases "except for" it just means that you don't like that data point as it doesn't fit your view point. Oh and guess what QBs miss passes. Its called football. Give the "because of a missed bomb" argument a rest. It is crap and eveyone knows it.
Nebreska has been a "divisional rival" for 2 years and starting next year will not be.
Are the Arkansas fans freaking about about Bielema? Is Cal freaking out about Sonny Dykes? Are Miami fans clamoring to fire Al Golden. He's had a lot less success than Hoke. Yes he has had NCAA issues, but he did not arrive at Miami after basically 3 disasterous recruiting classes.
Is that where we've fallen to? Are you kidding? Dykes and Bielema are in year one, not year three. And yes, Nebraska is a division rival. They're the best program in our division, and we're 1-2 against them. The except fors matter because we've been lucky to pull out a couple wins against rivals. Yes, that's football, but it doesn't mean that we should be happy to have beaten a crappy OSU team barely and an average ND team twice.
People are not clamoring the Al Golden to be fired because he's looking at a 10 win season and had his team in the top ten (and could very well win his division). The trajectory of Miami (ytM) is upwards, ours isn't. As a sidebar, Al Golden has as many wins against Ohio State as Hoke does.