Wasn't aware hes been on ST every game. Thanks for the info.
don't we all
Wasn't aware hes been on ST every game. Thanks for the info.
This gets asked every single week
The general thought seems to be that he's a true freshman who is probably terrible in coverage
Dymonte : Defense :: Derrick Green : Offense
He's a freshman
Einhorn is a man?!?!
This is actually a great discussion. I'd argue it's the most dissapointing part of the defense this year. Had he been able to lock down that nickelback spot, we might have seen a lot fewer disasters with Countess on the outside instead of the young guys Stribling and Lewis being beaten on huge plays int he Penn State, Indiana, and MSU games.
But if we're going to be playing a true frosh in a passing situation, I'd rather it be one of the guys who are more accomplished pass defenders than a guy who is big and athletic but needs work on his pass defense. If the most disappointing part of the defense for you was the play of a true frosh, then you should have had different expectations.
but Thomas was touted for his blitzing ability and that wouldve helped us on obvious passing downs getting to the QB
We would have to blitz for that to be a reality.
I'm not saying that was my "expectation". But the hype was that Thomas was going to be a contributor/starter in nickel situations. The freshman in his place have struggled. I'm not trying to blame anyone, but their understandable struggles really hurt us in the Penn State game and at other times.
Everything else seems to be what I was expecting besides our less aggressive nature. Good, not great defense, which struggles to get pressure but is pretty solid.
Well considering two other freshman have played considerable time in the secondary(Lewis and Stribling) I don't think it's this made up preconception that Hoke only feels comfortable with upperclassman. Wilson is an underclassman too and has started every game. He probably just isn't that good YET. Like others have said, safety is a difficult position as a freshman.
Even a guy who is a fantastic athlete may have difficulty playing certain positions in college. If he's behind guys in his class, there's no reason to suspect they'll get better at a slower rate playing games than he will practicing.
Maybe they want more of a 3rd corner at that spot than it looked like in fall camp and he'll have more success at safety. But it is possible the guy ends up like Marvin Robinson and never finds a spot in the defense because other guys on the team are a better fit.
I really think it's the safety vs corner thing, because every guy we've used as the fifth DB all season has been a corner (Stribling, Lewis, Hollowell, Avery). That tells me that guy needs to be more of a pass defender than anything else.
And I don't agree with the Marvin Robinson comparison. In his case, he was too small for LB but too slow for safety. Thomas has plenty of athleticism, so that won't be an issue. I'm sure he just needs to get a better handle on the mental part that a safety needs and a corner doesn't.
I'm not down on the guy and have no reason to expect him not to play. Just pointing out that some guys who are super athletes don't have whatever it is to play certain positions or even find a spot. Could be physical fit for the job, could be mental, could be any combo or just bad luck with other more polished guys on the roster. Mentioned Furman and Stevie Brown in an earlier post as guys who took a while to find a home even though they are some of the best pure athletes in the country.
You're right that he could be in a Stevie Brown or Furman type situation, but I don't think we have anywhere near the evidence to suggest that yet. The more realistic explanation is that we just haven't needed him because the guys playing over him at older than him (or just better pass defenders, in the case of the nickel). We knew Furman was doomed when we had no safeties or poor safeties and he still wasn't getting a shot, even when he was no longer a frosh.
Next year will tell a lot about Dymonte. There will be an open starting safety spot, we'll see if he gets it. Though that still won't be the end all answer if it goes to a guy like Jeremy Clark (who is older) or Jabrill Peppers.
I actually thought Furman looked okay in the opener when Gordon was out and that his athletic ability showed up. Not quite sure where to go at times (understandable for a first start), but I wouldn't be surprised to see him win that job next year (especially if he can be the guy closer to the line of scrimmage paired with Wilson, something he couldn't do with Gordon or Kovacs).
Agree on Dymonte, I would just love to see more guys like him with top-flight athletic ability at RB. Thought Furman was a good candidate for that too, especially in RR's system where getting through a crease could often get you into the secondary without as much reading/reacting to the line involved. Would love to see Peppers start next season there too, especially with all the corners this year coming back.
"we just haven't needed him" If we didnt need him he should have been redshirted. If you want him to start next year or combat Jeremy Clark he should be getting 5-15 plays a game to get him ready. So either the coaches made an error burning his redshirt, he is not developing as they expected (which is on the coaches), or he is not what the recruiting rankings made him out to be. If the excuse of the safety position is so difficult to play hence he is not out there is valid (which I think it is difficult to play as a young guy) he should be getting those reps at nickel back. Not a ton or not against Indiana but if he cant see the field vs Minnesota or PSU or Uconn for even 5-10 plays how the heck is he going to be a starter next year?
p.s. if we were deep and did not except him to start next year this conversation would be moot... I'd be fine with him doing this and/or redshirting, having his "rotate in" system next year and then fight for the starting role in 2015 but since the depth issue is here, and we lose Gordon and have a gaping hole at safety next year, these questions become more pressing. I just dont see logic on not playing a presumed starter for 2014 at all in 2013 other than in special teams. And maybe its just we who have him as a presumed starter but who IS getting playing time this year who can slide into the safety spot next year next to Wilson? Avery is gone, Furman hasn't "shown", and that leaves Clark and Thomas - neither of which are getting reps.
I would think a logical outcome is any guy who is a presumed starter in 2014 should be getting reps at some level, in some games in 2013.
If you want to get a supposedly highly talented kid meangingful playing time—at the position he was recruited to play—as a pure freshman, great.
Burning the redshirts of guys like Will Campbell and Dymonte Thomas for ST duty and little else strikes me as counterintuitive and counterproductive. Obviously Campbell was RR's fuckup, but I think Hoke & Co. are repeating his mistake.
He is greatly needed on special teams. Otherwise we go through the whole "why are our starters playing special teams" argument that was such a hot topic last season. I would much rather have a talented freshman on special teams than a walk-on senior that may not perform as well.
When you have a serious uptick in talent more redshirts are bound to be burned. Great players want to see the field in any capacity possible. It is sometimes better to get a kid playing time and keep him around then it is to keep him on the sidelines questioning his decision for coming to play at a school.
Generally agree with your thoughts, but if there is an issue with him developing, it is not necessarily on the coaches.
In the first example of "the game plan was good! We got a 7 vs. 6!," it ignores the fact that IF THE ONLY guy the tight end can block is Lewan's man, it's effectively a 6 vs. 6. In that allignment, the tight end might as well be sitting on the bench - he isn't going to contribute much (Lewan isn't perfect, but that's still where help is needed the least).
A 6 vs. 6 should still buy more time than it did, but this is part of the reason it felt like 10 vs. 11 on the field sometimes.
This is because our coaches are really really bad. For some reason, Michigan football player development is on the third layer of inception where reasonable player development takes 4 years where it takes other schools 6 months.
Our safety play has been so damn miserable that these coaches must really be pieces of work if they can't get a stud athlete like Dymonte on the field by this point. I think there is an element of senior loyalty, which is insanely annoying.
You are crazy. Our safety play has been fine. Dymonte is a true freshman. It is rare that true freshmen ever play meaningful minutes.
Calm down BRO
He is a true freshman. What development do you expect? Talk about development of Juniors and Seniors (haha we don't have any! YAY) but not true freshman. Damn people... this is getting to be too much. Complaining about development of true freshmen... shit
Our safeties have been pretty decent this year by the way.
what are you talking about. Dymonte not playing = coaches bad! sooo then, I guess Dymonte playing = coaches good? Am I following that right?
also, apparently player development at Michigan takes 4 years, but 6 months at "other schools". What is this based on? What other schools specifically?
If senior loyalty was in effect wouldn't Joe Reynolds, Jeremy Jackson and Cam Gordon play more?
Are you suggesting Thomas should start ahead of senior safety Thomas Gordon or maybe senior CB/S Courtney Avery, because he is a stud athlete and they are non-stud athletes?
as others mentioned, safety play has been solid. might need to explain the "so damn miserable" comment.
I dont think anyone wants him starting or expect him to be starting from what I read in this thread. (In my world, a perfect outcome is redshirting 18 of your 25 freshman and the others getting relatively limited time but that is in a deep Alabama type situation) Many are confused why he has disappeared if they burned his redshirt. And why he is getting zero reps on the defense when many have penciled him in as a starter in 2014.
He had before the season If I remember right.
And it shows nothing for any injury to Patrick Kugler. My guess is he's just redshirting, adding muscle and learning how to whiff a block effectively. (blocking) /s
during/after his Sr. season. There was serious discussion on the board that as an EE he might have been the best option at center this year if not for the injury.
Avery took his spot as he came back from injury.
The best players don't always play..and that is a shame. It is telling when players become starters in the NFL but they could not get on the field in college. A talent like Furman, Thomas, Green would be on the field for most B10 teams. It is not like we are 'great' without them contributing.
What about green? Where has he been?
vs msu. Our coaches have upperclassmen love and I hate it, they don't play the best always.
You have to be able to trust your freshmen players.
# 3 safety that yr has started for Ole Miss in the big bad SEC and has made plays.
Dymonte was #4 (scout)
There is no valid excuse for your best athletes not seeing the field. In fact, if the best team in the land does it consistently, why can't we learn from that example?
If Alabama can play four running backs in a game, play freshmen regularly, then all of the reasons I am hearing here for not playing freshmen or stud athletes sounds like pure dumb shit.
Ever heard that one? Tired of hearing this. Rack had a great point on BTN tonight about how all these other schools also lost starting lineman and you don't see them getting their asses handed to them and blowing assignments everywhere. Points right to coaching.
Our coaches have to stop being afraid of freshmen mistakes. If a senior has more experience but could never match the youngster's pure ability, you have to give the nod to ability if you want to maximize your talent and team ceiling. Why on earth would you hold your own team back?
What about Taco Charlton ???? We already can't pressure the quarterback. Why not ?
Well he's a true frosh that from the sounds of it just did well solely on athletic ability in high school. He doesn't have the mental game yet. Can't read offenses just shoots up field. He's too raw basically. At best he's a good fit for very obvious passing downs that's all. Also early on he had trouble with pad level. He's just not really a viable option yet that's all
Safety is not out issue . It's our weak pass rush. We leave the secondary out to dry . Where is taco Charlton ???? Anybody know why he hasn't played ? He'll he can't do worse !!!!
This is another instance where the team's performance in the Akron and Connecticut games may end hurting us. I had expected those games to be blowouts and that reserves like Thomas would have the opportunity for significant playing time in the second half.
I think it's just difficult for freshmen to come in and play safety without the fear of "the big play." OSU has Vonn Bell, who is certainly highly touted coming out of signing day and fall camp, but he has hardly seen the field in meaningful moments outside of special teams, despite a season-ending injury to safety Christian Bryant. I don't think it's at all an indication of how the OSU staff feels about Bell (they're obviously excited about his future), but rather he needs to learn the position and its role in our defense before the coaches trust sending him out there.
I don't know if it's the same situation with Dymonte, but given his outstanding athleticism I would imagine the coaches are thrilled to have him.