I'm still trying to figure out what game people saw where Gardner looked vastly better.
Other than the one (illegal) pass, he looked like a kid with shaky mechanics running for his fucking life behind no protection.
I'm still trying to figure out what game people saw where Gardner looked vastly better.
Other than the one (illegal) pass, he looked like a kid with shaky mechanics running for his fucking life behind no protection.
Highly recruited backup quarterbacks are the most popular players on the team whenever the starter struggles. Facts are irrelevent to most of the fanbase when it comes to the Denard vs Devin debate.
More so then not when that highly touted back up comes in as "the man" they do well. Gardner hasn't been the man yet and we will not know if he's capable until he's given the chance. I say give a big shot vs Purdue!
Gardner has hardly gotten enough reps to make those kinds of conclusions. I'm not in that camp, but I would guess it's more along the lines of "We've given Denard more than enough time to learn how to throw the football, now let's see if Gardner can do any better". I just don't think it's right to make this push after yesterday with the wind and all...
Yesterday was Sunday.
Today it is monday.
We we we so excited. We so excited. Gonna argue Denard/Devin today!
Thank you! I mean, shit, he was five yards past the line of scrimmage. I have literally never seen a quarterback do that, and I've seen a lot of inexperienced quarterbacks. I think that DG will be an excellent quarterback, but, dude, come on.
He was about a yard and a half past the line in real time. And that was, sadly, one of the best thrown balls all game.
That pass was a rope. I think a yard-and-a-half is optimistic, but maybe so.
At least the throw went to a Michigan player. Better than anything green, like grass of state players.
That's why I said that how nice that throw was is the saddest part about its being an illegal forward pass.
I watched carefully on replay. One step was on the LOS (which would have made it a legal throw), the next step was when he threw it, so he was exactly a step past the LOS, or approximately 1.5-2 yards.
Two yards still makes the case, I think. Clearly the five-yards part was an exaggerated pull-something-out-of-my-ass number and the least important part of the comment.
My point was that he was one step past the line, mostly because he needed to plant the left foot to be able to shift his weight properly. If he had thrown one step earlier, it would have been less accurate with less zip, but he still probably could have completed it.
I have watched it several times on replay.
Gardner was three to four yards past the line and the coverage recognized it and broke away from Junior which is why he was open.
The safety knew where Devin was before Devin knew.
Devin throws a better ball than Denard but that doesn't mean he is the one who should be in right now. We have our bed and need to lay in it for now.
Got a link? Not doubting you, but I'm going off my own memory and I don't have any supporting video. When watching it happen in the game, he looks really far down field, but when they slowed it down, it looked like he launched it only a few feet past the sticks.
When I first watched it, I agree, it was so far beyond the line that anyone could have seen it was an illegal pass. The replay was what made it seem like he released nearer to the line.
but I think he throws a better ball. Denard's wounded ducks don't do well in the wind, and I think that may have contributed to the coaches thinking they'd use Devin more. But that's about the only thing Devin (and size I guess) has going v. Denard, at least from what I've seen.
Dam I was hoping it was a picture of S. Hopkins looking sad because he was so lonely in the middle of the MSU defense and he had a Moonwalk dance planned for after his catch or maybe Denard running for a td. That would have been much better than that essay I didn't even read, because like duh?
Also wondering how open Hemmingway was before Devin crossed the line. He appeared to be all by himself so I'm thiking the second before when Devin was behind the LOS he was still wide open. So that was 2 wide open td's he blew?
After stating all that if the coaches want to continue to being him in on 2nd down please just start him and have people make fun of us with Denard on the bench. The rotating qb thing is a disaster.
You captured EXACTLY what I've been thinking for the past two days as I read idiots posting that Devon should be starting over Denard. I just figured they must've goten a different game to watch or something.
throws a better ball and even with shaky mechanics, he threw with better accuracy and arm strength. Not real difficult to see Devin is a better passer than Denard. Passing is QB's main job. Denard's erratic inaccuracy is hurting Michigan's offense even though he's electric on the ground.
Is this still a question if we pull this one out?? As I remember Denard played not so good against ND . . .we win . . . he's a hero with a great smile on ESPN!!
I think that bigredwolverine's very short comment sums this debate up. Against EVERY SINGLE BCS-level D that Denard has faced, he has had similar games. Look at State, Iowa, Wisco, PSU, OSU and MSU (Gator) from 2010, the first 3.5 quarters of ND this year and this past State loss?
In all of those games, Denard struggled for large portions of the game because he could not respond when forced to throw. Against ND this year, we were bailed out by Rees literally dropping the ball and throwing it to Michigan defenders a few times, and by our D, but Denard really struggled for most of the game.
I really do loe Denard, but having a QB for whom you have to say: "the offensive coordinator screwed up because he should game plan around tiny little short passes and easy patterns that a high schooler can hit" is very limiting on the offense.
I do love Denard, and I am also not calling for him to be benched, but it is a fair question. Personally, I favor the solution that puts both of them out there in that formation that we seem to run more and more - Denard at WR, RB, Slot or RB, with Devin as QB. As a wrinkle, on plays where the ball goes to Denard behind the line of scrimmage, I would like to see him have a run / throw mix of around 2/1 to force defenders to respect the fact that he can still actually throw the ball. I would also like to see that formation result in Devin throwing to some of our talented WRs or even handing off the a RB when the D is focussed on Denard. So much potential in this set, which uses Denard as an uber-back.
DG shouldn't start, but he shouldn't be sitting on the bench either. He needs to get complete drives so he can actually get in some kind of rhythm. They just throw him in here and there, that isn't going to work. It messes up Denard, and doesn't benefit Gardner.
When Urban Meyer says that leaving Denard out there is the right decision...it is the right decision. In fact, he said we should play Devin LESS.
He rotated Tim Tebow in for Chris Leak during Florida's first national championship year under him.
The funny thing about that is that Meyer disregarded his own advice at times when he was at Florida. He regularly pulled Chris Leak for Tim Tebow, and then when Tebow was starting, periodically pulled him for Percy Harvin to run the wildcat.
I was thinking that same thing when he was waxing poetically during the broadcast. And instead of calling him a hypocrite (like I thought I would), I was actually respecting his opinion even more because of it.
I wouldn't exactly call him a hypocrite, but I would have been curious to hear him to explain why he did things one way at UF was not comparable to what Hoke was doing. He touched on it just briefly with his "If you think Gardner's one of the 11 best players" line, but didn't expand further.
As the game went on, I listened more intently to Meyer's critique/analysis of Michigan's decision-making. He clearly has the resume to be critical or supportive. At first, before I knew it was Meyer, he was annoying me with his commentary. But I finally figured out who it was (yes, I'm slow) and actually learned a lot from him. That 11 best players statement was definitely informative.
Tebow was the true dual threat of the two qb's and was a freshman - he provided more options than Leak and soon proved it out. Perhaps Devin wll end up being a more balanced qb, but I think Meyer's point (then and now) is that the defense has to adjust more to the run-threat at qb who can also throw. Which is why he put Tebow on the field AND why he thought we should keep Denard on the field.
Sounds to me like in those cases, Meyer has an established starter that is effective at throwing the ball and pulling them for someone that can run better. Here Denard, the established runner, is being pulled for someone that is supposed to be able to throw better. A small but significant difference.
Perhaps Meyer wouldn't be opposed to the QB swap if Gardner proves he truly can pass better than Denard. In that case, it'd seem like you would use Gardner as often as Michigan used Tate last year, who was a much worse runner but more accurate passer.
Perhaps the difference is Chris Leak, while a good QB, was not nearly the explosive player that Denard is. Leak ran for a grand total of 30 yards his entire senior year and while Leak was a good passer, he was prone to INT (his TD/INT ratio his senior year was 23/13). Plus, Tebow was literally one of the top recruits in the past decade and I assume even more talented than Devin (I think Devin will be quite good, but Tebow turned into a Heisman winner, beyond all that "leader of men" stuff we've all heard ad nauseum).
Thus, I would assume Meyer would say, "Denard is better than Leak, and Tebow is better than Devin" which is why the two situations, while having some similarities, should not have the same result, i.e., keep Denard in the game and utilize his strengths.
It would be reckless to change QBs now. But as Hoke says, you compete for your job every day, and we need to have a fair competition for the QB spot during the off season. We cannot beat a team with a good defense unless we are able to throw the ball downfield effectively. If one of them demonstrates the ability to do that with some consistency, then he should start next year. Meanwhile, it will be tough moving the ball against Penn State and tosu if we do not improve our passing dramatically.
Hoke on playing Devin more: "No, Denard is our quarterback. We’re 6-1 and a lot of that is because Denard is our quarterback."
Hoke on Denard's throwing: "That's a bogus statement, because he can throw. ... There's a lot more than just Denard."
Hoke when asked if Denard's passing has improved or regressed throughout season: "I think he’s fine. I don’t have a problem with him."
Denard should not start.
If he is injured. He is not, at least not seriously, from my understanding, so he absolutely should start.
I really think that Denard's passing was affected in a detrimental way more than Cousins. The result of this is that you can't fully judge Denard, or Devin, because of the wind and because of MSU's defense being able to stack the line. Is there a way to practice for wind? Can they put our receivers and QB's in a large size aerodynamic labs with wind machines to get used to throwing with a 30 mph wind to your left, right, coming at you, and behind you?
When quarterback questions after every game deal with the fundamentals of THROWING a football--not the scheme or the coverage or the play calls--then I feel pondering a change at QB is pretty justified. I'm not saying he SHOULD be replaced. But if we are still taking about footwork and release points then I think it is at least a conversation worth having amongst the coaching staff.
Everyone that wants to keep Denard keeps bringing up the issue of him being the only running threat we have or rather we have no running game without Denard. That is incorrect. Nobody is taking into account that if we had a passing game, maybe our running game outside of Denard would be better. Whenever Denard is in the game, the opposing defense isn't worried about the pass so they stack the box. Our running backs have to go against a loaded defense designed to stop the run. If we had a passing game that would open the defense up allowing our backs to get into space easier. It would probably help the O-line as well not having to worry about having to block an extra defender every play.
Wow, I'd say it looks like you got what you deserved.
I am not the Mod that has been dealing with your offenses, but the changing of the taglines is a new penalty we are levying on MGoElders who are not really affected by a reduction of MGoPoints. You clearly pissed people off, drew the attention of the Mods (probably through a personal attack) and were sent to Bolivian. The tagline editing is another form of penalty, so you know.
A little personal advice - stop the personal attacks and stop complaining about punishments. Signing up as a different user or not, the advice is the same.
I'm disappointed that this is even a debate. Last year was Denard's first year as a starter, and his second year in RR's system. The results from that are obvious.
This is his second year as a college starter and his first year in Borges' system, in which Borges has told us to expect growing pains, and Denard is experiencing growing pains. This debate is pointless. Have some patience, I am confident these coaches know what they are doing.
You lost me with...
"I have seen countless posts calling for Denard to be benched"
I've seen almost no one calling for Denard to ride the bench. Your entire premise is BS.
It's almost as overused of a straw man as "its was sooo windy and the o-line sucked" as if this discussion is all about the msu game.
There have been a bunch of threads discussing Denard vs. Devin (and even Kennedy!) that were unpublished. That is one of the reasons why I hoped to make it clear in the title of this thread that all future threads on this topic will be unpublished. At least for the next few weeks and unless something drastic occurs that warrants the dicussion to be re-had.
I'm still lost.
I've seen several threads on the topic (going on for multiple pages)... Even the vast majority of the "Devin should be starting QB"-crowd still believe Denard should be on the field and getting as many touches as humanly possible, as he's still our biggest playmaker.
... I don't consider that "benched" (which was my issue with the OP in my last post).
Is no one curious as to why Devin hasn't won the QB position outright with the way Denard has been throwing all year? It's not like Super Denard shows up to practice and then Game Denard plays on Saturday. He throws the same passes in practice, and probably makes slightly better decisions. I'm going to guess the answer is quite similair as to why Devin threw the ball well past the L.O.S. and why on 4th and forever he ran 10 yards past the L.O.S., retreated 30 yards back, and looked downfield for somewhere to throw. Lest we forget about the forgotten Stephen Hopkins. He's probably not a very good QB either, you can point to his 5* rating all you want, but I'd put a ton of money on that rating plumeting had he been a recruit ten years ago. Just review the spring game and see how awfully they both played as a QB if you want an equall reps comparision. The only difference was that Denard can run. And that's still the case today.
are afraid of moving Denard to a different position because of the possible reaction from media and fans which ceratinly will be negative when they first found out that Denard started over Tate before 1st game of the season. If it weren't for the fact that Denard is so dynamic at QB last year, he would have never been considered to be a QB this season and Devin would have gotten the start.
people agree when the thread say replace Denard and then people agree when the thread says don't replace Denard. We are a very bipolar community.
(LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC) Wow does that really work?!
Why the RR era is oficially over (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Why RAWK music sucks (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Why Lloyd was not pushed, he retired (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Hmmm . . . doesn't seem to be working.
it's annoying to have repeats of the same thread. And it's definitely premature to say Denard should be benched. But can we really say last thread on this topic when we might go into a time period when it becomes more apparent that Devin should have his chance?
Isn't it a little stringent to have that kind of blanket requirement on the board?
I'm against the idea of starting Devin, but something feels especially restrictive today.
EDIT: Okay, I just saw pbg's comment about opening up the conversation again if something happens.
No, no it doesn't, but its worth a try, right? The way I see it, even if it discourages only one poster from starting a new thread on the topic, then mission accomplished.
are Bums! Bums I tell ya! time to put in Jack Kennedy!
I mean, look at the stats, Denard and Devin, (on a very windy day which saw Kirk Cousins go 13-24 for 120 yards) only went 12-31 for 168 yards.
/s if you can't tell by the facts that they were at least even with Kirk Cousins for the most part in throwing for the day.
It seems to me as if Denard can make it in the pros as a RB, sort of like Jahvid Best (same kind of unbelievable speed and quick moves and not much difference in size (Best listed as 5'10" and 199)), but I am the first to admit that I have insufficient knowledge of the game to make any such prediction. I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.
If that would be best for him, then we could play him at tailback (primarily) and run a lot of wildcat, tailback passes and bubble screens to him that would get him one-on-one opportunities. To me, a big part of the problem is that To me j
It seems to me as if a problem against the better teams is that they put 9 men in the box (it seemed as if MSU had 9 in the box all game long) and dare us to throw. Denard can't throw. If he is at tailback or split out for a bubble screen, maybe the opposing Ds will have to move some folks out of the box or take the chance that DG will hit Denard on a quick slant that he will take to the house.
The jury is still out in my mind as to whether or not Denard can be a successful NFL quarterback. We're looking at an unfinished product right now, so any speculation one way or the other isn't much use. I think he has the potential and the tools to do it, it's just a matter of being able to learn from the coaches and put everything together. If he does, I see no reason why he couldn't have an NFL career similar to Vick.
Denard has a squirt gun. Vick can throw a 15 yard out from the opposite hash with zip on the ball. Denard has not shown the ability to make accurate and crisp throws longer than 10-15yds.
Are you kidding me? Did you not see the throw to Junior in the ND game where the D-lineman was draped all over Denard? When he has time and he sets his feet Denard absolutely has a cannon. I don't think anybody has questioned his arm strength. Denard's struggles up to this point have been setting his feet and correctly reading opposing defenses. His mistakes have been due to poor technique and poor decision-making, not lack of arm strength.
Let's base our entire opinion on Denard's arm strength on one throw. Name an NFL throw that he makes consistently? He can't throw the out with any zip. He consistently under throws deep balls. It was obvious how much better Devin's arm is in his limited PT on Saturday.
I'm not going to go through every offensive UFR since Denard has been playing to disprove your idiocy, but go look through the Northwestern UFR again (assuming you already have). Specifically, take a look at the following:
I see no lack of arm strength on those throws. There may be times when he doesn't put as much zip on a pass as he should, but that's not a matter of ability. It's a matter of decision-making.
Again, I think you're about the only one who has questioned Denard's arm strength. I don't think that's ever been the issue.
He's too small (5'11"). Already has a history of getting hurt.
He throws with terrible mechanics that has never been corrected by the coaching staff. He throws with terrible accuracy, even though he threw for 65% last year but it was mostly short stuff that most QB should be able to throw. It's the intermediate and deep throw is where he's erratic.
His arm is average at best, it's not always being able to throw 50 yard bomb. It's more about throw it with velocity from hashmarks. He doesn't have that.
He makes terrible decisions like throwing up for grab once he get pressured.
He doesn't know how to manipulate within the pocket to buy time.
He is an athlete playing QB and has a future as a slot WR in the next level.
Just because you play QB in college doesn't mean you can play QB in the NFL. Look at Brad Smith, Antwann Randle-El, and to name a few. Dynamic athlete/player but not a NFL QB material.
I disagree with you.
Regarding size, let's take a little test. Which of the following height/weight combination belongs to an NFL QB who has either had a successful career or is currently an starter, keeping in mind that Denard is currently 6'1, 193 (not sure where you got the 5'11" number from but he is listed as such at ESPN)?
A. 6'0, 215 lb
B. 6'0, 209 lb
C. 6'2", 232lb
D. 6'2", 225 lb
E. 6'2", 225 lb
F. 6'2", 220 lb
G. 6'1", 215 lb
H. 6'2", 228 lb
I. 6'2", 240 lb
Ok, it's a trick question. They're all NFL QBs. I listed Vick, Brees, Stafford, Fitzpatrick, Sanchez, Dalton, McCoy, Romo, and McNabb. Do you really think 1 or 2 inches makes much of a difference in height?
Regarding his mechanics, it is his footwork that he struggles with, but it sounds like he hasn't had much work with that until this year. Are you expecting him to have perfect footwork overnight? That is something that can be learned and coached, and if he continues to apply himself to learning he will get better.
I completely disagree that his arm strength is "average at best." See my post above for 3 examples to prove you wrong. When he gets his footwork right and makes a good decision, his throws are on the money.
Regarding his decision-making, I agree with you. As I've said, that's one of the primary areas that he needs to improve if he wants to become an NFL-caliber QB. But that is something that can be learned and improved if he puts in the work and continues to apply himself.
Regarding his ability to manipulate the pocket, again that is something that can be learned and coached. And with his ability to make tacklers miss and his elusiveness, this should be the least of our worries.
I am not saying that Denard is definitely going to be a superstar QB in the NFL some day, I just think people are too quick to write him off as "just an athlete playing QB who will be able to do nothing more than be a slot WR at the next level." That may be his future, but I think he has the potential to play QB in the NFL. He needs to refine his game if he wants that to become a reality, but his weak areas are areas that can be improved with good coaching, and hard work and determination from Denard.
you made some interesting points. Personally, I'm kind of baffled by his throws. I've seen him make some NFL type throws. The pass to Gallon in the ND game was about 40ish yards right on target, along with some throws that he threads right over a LB and right to a guy's numbers. However, his decison making is most of the times not very good.
Way too many jump balls and I haven't seen him hit a WR in stride deep all year. One thing that glares to me though is his lack of size (weight -195). Can you imagine Julius Peppers hitting Denard on a full run on his blindside? He'd knock him into next week! I'm in the camp that I don't think he has the smarts, or the arm, or the talent throwing to go to the next level as a QB. 3rd down back, punt returner, slot reciever? Sure - I think he'd be fine. But even entertaining the thought of him as a QB at the next level, in all honesty just seems kind of silly to me.
Coming into this season I kept thinking that I don't care how explosive Denard can be at times, I just want him to manage the game properly. There is nothing wrong with Denard's throwing when he sets his feet and throws to an open receiver. My problem with the situation is that I am sure in practice Denard is composed, makes good decisions, and delivers the ball well. The only game this season where I thought he properly managed the game and made good decisions throughout was the Minnesota game, which was essentially a scrimmage. In games against decent competition he dances around and throws some of the worst passes I have ever seen from an FBS team's Junior, starting quarterback.
And you guys need to realize that this isn't a question of Devin starting over Denard, but rather what position Denard should be starting at. Should Denard remain a QB, or should he be moved to RB or Slot WR. I would like to see what happens if Devin was QB with Denard as RB for an entire drive. I feel this would give us our best chance at winning. IIRC, we ran a couple of jet sweeps to the left around Lewan with Denard coming from the slot receiver position to the right and getting the handoff from Devin, each of which got 10+ yards.
Meaning, I've seen Denard make all matter of throws. But he's quarterback. I don't want to watch every pass like it's some 15 foot jumpshot where 40% is great and consequently I expect more often than not for him to clunk all manner of shots/throws in between. There comes a threshold where missed throws means stalled series means less Denard on the field, and is that worth "every play starting with him" vs. "more total plays with him in the game"?
that our O line isn't good against decent to good Defenses, especially when asked to pass block traditionally. The question is this though. Which one is better:
1) Devin @ QB, Denard at slot/rb/wr...
2) Denard @ QB, Devin on the bench.
Those are the 2 options. It's a tough question, but I trust the coaches on this. My wild ass guess is that Denard starts and plays QB the rest of the season (except for the 2QB sets) and that next year, Devin starts with Denard in the slot/rb/wr position. Devin needs an entire offseason as the QB, and Borges needs to tweek Denard's O, to fit him, and it's not worth it 7 games in.
Wow. I seriously cannot believe we're having this conversation after a game where our OL just didn't block and there were 40 MPH winds. The bottom line is that Denard is the most explosive player on the field and on a team where the RB are underwhelming and the WR are above average (but not explosive), the fact that the defense has to key on Denard so much opens up an enormous portion of the offense. In our 3 games against BCS types before the State game, we scored 35, 58, and 42. If you go to last year, we struggled against MSU(both) and OSU, but other than that Denard moved the ball against every defense we played. I think Devin Gardner is going to be a fantastic player. I also think, however, that Denard gives us, by far, the best chance to win.
He was probably just distracted by the trash.
to all the difficulties the offense is having with the passing game? WR's get complacent, TE's quit running routes, lineman lose track of where the QB is at, etc., etc., etc. How long do you allow a QB to play regardless of how much you like him or how talented he is when he completes less than 50% of his passes. DR is one dimensional and a great runner but he can't throw the football. His misses are so pathetic, his timing is so bad, his patience is even worse, that you can't win against quality competition with him at this position. Turn him into a Percy Harvin type player. Keep him on the field, line him up all over the place, get him 15 touches a game but don't let him throw the football because he is not effective. This is a big boy conference. If you enjoy seeing DR run up Heisman type numbers against mediocre teams and then go in the toilet against tough competition then your not a football fan. You become as complacent as the team that should win but doesn't. This whole team is impacted by the way DR plays. How discouraged can they be when passes sail 10-15 yards over open WR's. How discouraged do they get when wide open WR's don't get thrown to. This TEAM has to work together to accomplish their common goals. If one part does not work. Change it out. Nice kid, fantastic runner, but don't fall in love with a broken part. The machine will continue to run but the machine will not run effectively. The Team, the Team, the Team.
"With DG in the game we would be one dimensional". And with Denard in we are multi-dimensional?