Why Devin Gardner should not start (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
So with the game going the way it did I have seen countless posts calling for Denard to be benched and starting DG.
Reasons for . . .
Deving fits the Borges system much better and is a better passer than Denard which is true. He is 6' 4" and has throwing lanes that quite honestly Denard does not. Devin is very gifted and would be great in a true west coast scheme because he does have the athletic ability to be called more than just a scrambler. His elusivness would cause huge problems and open up some great things down field for him to use his just a little stronger arm than Denard.
Reasons why not . . .
The primary reason that I dont think DG should start is because of our offensive line. I dont know what the deal is, but they look as though they are pretty stagnet, and not really improving. In the the games we played where the other team actually had a Defensive Line (ND, MSU) our unning game was horrible. Yes, yes recruited for a different system I know, and there is truth to that. However, they have not done as well as I hoped they would. There is still time so we'll see. The primary reason that we are using the Spread/Zone read offense is not because Denard cant go under center, but rather we have a group of Lineman that dont have the consistent ability to blow some holes open. This season as you listen to game commentators they say that they are running the Spread to keep Denard involved and that is partly true, but to me its a line situation more than anything else. Thus Denard is the only real running game we have so he has to be in the game. With DG in the game we would be one dimensional. Like I said, elusive, but not a runner. Couple that with the fact that we have a bunch of OK RB's and its obvious Denard has to be in.
Denard has to start. From what I read thats why they are recruiting the crap out of Dunn, as they have other Ohio commits on his tail too. next year will most probably be more of the same with some give and take running both systems. Alot depends on the emergence or recruitment of a solid back, improvement of both our QB's in a pro style system, weight gain and strength of current O-line, and how game ready guys like Bryant, Kalis, and others will be.
IMO 2013 will be a great year. DG at QB with a solid mix of Vets and Youth on the O-line and the defensive recruiting and coaching starting to come to fruition. I'm sure there will be many who disagree with some of my take but thats th fun of MGOBLOG!!
[Ed - PGB: I took the liberty of adding the parenthetical to the title to broadcast to everyone that if you have thoughts/comments on this topic you should get them in while the gettin' is still good. I will be deleting all future threads on this topic for the next two weeks as being redundant. If something happens after the next game to warrant a discussion, so be it. But until then, no moar please.]
October 17th, 2011 at 1:39 PM ^
You lost me with...
"I have seen countless posts calling for Denard to be benched"
I've seen almost no one calling for Denard to ride the bench. Your entire premise is BS.
It's almost as overused of a straw man as "its was sooo windy and the o-line sucked" as if this discussion is all about the msu game.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:46 PM ^
There have been a bunch of threads discussing Denard vs. Devin (and even Kennedy!) that were unpublished. That is one of the reasons why I hoped to make it clear in the title of this thread that all future threads on this topic will be unpublished. At least for the next few weeks and unless something drastic occurs that warrants the dicussion to be re-had.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
I'm still lost.
I've seen several threads on the topic (going on for multiple pages)... Even the vast majority of the "Devin should be starting QB"-crowd still believe Denard should be on the field and getting as many touches as humanly possible, as he's still our biggest playmaker.
... I don't consider that "benched" (which was my issue with the OP in my last post).
October 17th, 2011 at 1:49 PM ^
Is no one curious as to why Devin hasn't won the QB position outright with the way Denard has been throwing all year? It's not like Super Denard shows up to practice and then Game Denard plays on Saturday. He throws the same passes in practice, and probably makes slightly better decisions. I'm going to guess the answer is quite similair as to why Devin threw the ball well past the L.O.S. and why on 4th and forever he ran 10 yards past the L.O.S., retreated 30 yards back, and looked downfield for somewhere to throw. Lest we forget about the forgotten Stephen Hopkins. He's probably not a very good QB either, you can point to his 5* rating all you want, but I'd put a ton of money on that rating plumeting had he been a recruit ten years ago. Just review the spring game and see how awfully they both played as a QB if you want an equall reps comparision. The only difference was that Denard can run. And that's still the case today.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:16 PM ^
are afraid of moving Denard to a different position because of the possible reaction from media and fans which ceratinly will be negative when they first found out that Denard started over Tate before 1st game of the season. If it weren't for the fact that Denard is so dynamic at QB last year, he would have never been considered to be a QB this season and Devin would have gotten the start.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:35 PM ^
That's silly.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:44 PM ^
if Denard was merely an average QB, Hoke/Borges would have moved him to WR and start Devin. Not silly about it at all.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:58 PM ^
people agree when the thread say replace Denard and then people agree when the thread says don't replace Denard. We are a very bipolar community.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:12 PM ^
(LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC) Wow does that really work?!
Why the RR era is oficially over (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Why RAWK music sucks (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Why Lloyd was not pushed, he retired (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
Hmmm . . . doesn't seem to be working.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:48 PM ^
it's annoying to have repeats of the same thread. And it's definitely premature to say Denard should be benched. But can we really say last thread on this topic when we might go into a time period when it becomes more apparent that Devin should have his chance?
Isn't it a little stringent to have that kind of blanket requirement on the board?
I'm against the idea of starting Devin, but something feels especially restrictive today.
EDIT: Okay, I just saw pbg's comment about opening up the conversation again if something happens.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:56 PM ^
No, no it doesn't, but its worth a try, right? The way I see it, even if it discourages only one poster from starting a new thread on the topic, then mission accomplished.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:12 PM ^
are Bums! Bums I tell ya! time to put in Jack Kennedy!
I mean, look at the stats, Denard and Devin, (on a very windy day which saw Kirk Cousins go 13-24 for 120 yards) only went 12-31 for 168 yards.
/s if you can't tell by the facts that they were at least even with Kirk Cousins for the most part in throwing for the day.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:41 PM ^
It seems to me as if Denard can make it in the pros as a RB, sort of like Jahvid Best (same kind of unbelievable speed and quick moves and not much difference in size (Best listed as 5'10" and 199)), but I am the first to admit that I have insufficient knowledge of the game to make any such prediction. I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.
If that would be best for him, then we could play him at tailback (primarily) and run a lot of wildcat, tailback passes and bubble screens to him that would get him one-on-one opportunities.
It seems to me as if a problem against the better teams is that they put 9 men in the box (it seemed as if MSU had 9 in the box all game long) and dare us to throw. Denard can't throw. If he is at tailback or split out for a bubble screen, maybe the opposing Ds will have to move some folks out of the box or take the chance that DG will hit Denard on a quick slant that he will take to the house.
Any thoughts?
October 17th, 2011 at 2:53 PM ^
The jury is still out in my mind as to whether or not Denard can be a successful NFL quarterback. We're looking at an unfinished product right now, so any speculation one way or the other isn't much use. I think he has the potential and the tools to do it, it's just a matter of being able to learn from the coaches and put everything together. If he does, I see no reason why he couldn't have an NFL career similar to Vick.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:33 PM ^
Denard has a squirt gun. Vick can throw a 15 yard out from the opposite hash with zip on the ball. Denard has not shown the ability to make accurate and crisp throws longer than 10-15yds.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:39 PM ^
Are you kidding me? Did you not see the throw to Junior in the ND game where the D-lineman was draped all over Denard? When he has time and he sets his feet Denard absolutely has a cannon. I don't think anybody has questioned his arm strength. Denard's struggles up to this point have been setting his feet and correctly reading opposing defenses. His mistakes have been due to poor technique and poor decision-making, not lack of arm strength.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:45 PM ^
Let's base our entire opinion on Denard's arm strength on one throw. Name an NFL throw that he makes consistently? He can't throw the out with any zip. He consistently under throws deep balls. It was obvious how much better Devin's arm is in his limited PT on Saturday.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:20 PM ^
I'm not going to go through every offensive UFR since Denard has been playing to disprove your idiocy, but go look through the Northwestern UFR again (assuming you already have). Specifically, take a look at the following:
- First play on the second drive. Denard actually shows exactly what you say he can't do: he hits Hemingway on a deep out from the opposite hash.
- Third play on last drive of the second quarter. Brian actually writes "NFL throw there."
- The bomb to Roundtree in the second half.
I see no lack of arm strength on those throws. There may be times when he doesn't put as much zip on a pass as he should, but that's not a matter of ability. It's a matter of decision-making.
Again, I think you're about the only one who has questioned Denard's arm strength. I don't think that's ever been the issue.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:21 PM ^
He's too small (5'11"). Already has a history of getting hurt.
He throws with terrible mechanics that has never been corrected by the coaching staff. He throws with terrible accuracy, even though he threw for 65% last year but it was mostly short stuff that most QB should be able to throw. It's the intermediate and deep throw is where he's erratic.
His arm is average at best, it's not always being able to throw 50 yard bomb. It's more about throw it with velocity from hashmarks. He doesn't have that.
He makes terrible decisions like throwing up for grab once he get pressured.
He doesn't know how to manipulate within the pocket to buy time.
He is an athlete playing QB and has a future as a slot WR in the next level.
Just because you play QB in college doesn't mean you can play QB in the NFL. Look at Brad Smith, Antwann Randle-El, and to name a few. Dynamic athlete/player but not a NFL QB material.
October 18th, 2011 at 9:36 AM ^
I disagree with you.
Regarding size, let's take a little test. Which of the following height/weight combination belongs to an NFL QB who has either had a successful career or is currently an starter, keeping in mind that Denard is currently 6'1, 193 (not sure where you got the 5'11" number from but he is listed as such at ESPN)?
A. 6'0, 215 lb
B. 6'0, 209 lb
C. 6'2", 232lb
D. 6'2", 225 lb
E. 6'2", 225 lb
F. 6'2", 220 lb
G. 6'1", 215 lb
H. 6'2", 228 lb
I. 6'2", 240 lb
Ok, it's a trick question. They're all NFL QBs. I listed Vick, Brees, Stafford, Fitzpatrick, Sanchez, Dalton, McCoy, Romo, and McNabb. Do you really think 1 or 2 inches makes much of a difference in height?
Regarding his mechanics, it is his footwork that he struggles with, but it sounds like he hasn't had much work with that until this year. Are you expecting him to have perfect footwork overnight? That is something that can be learned and coached, and if he continues to apply himself to learning he will get better.
I completely disagree that his arm strength is "average at best." See my post above for 3 examples to prove you wrong. When he gets his footwork right and makes a good decision, his throws are on the money.
Regarding his decision-making, I agree with you. As I've said, that's one of the primary areas that he needs to improve if he wants to become an NFL-caliber QB. But that is something that can be learned and improved if he puts in the work and continues to apply himself.
Regarding his ability to manipulate the pocket, again that is something that can be learned and coached. And with his ability to make tacklers miss and his elusiveness, this should be the least of our worries.
I am not saying that Denard is definitely going to be a superstar QB in the NFL some day, I just think people are too quick to write him off as "just an athlete playing QB who will be able to do nothing more than be a slot WR at the next level." That may be his future, but I think he has the potential to play QB in the NFL. He needs to refine his game if he wants that to become a reality, but his weak areas are areas that can be improved with good coaching, and hard work and determination from Denard.
October 18th, 2011 at 11:19 AM ^
you made some interesting points. Personally, I'm kind of baffled by his throws. I've seen him make some NFL type throws. The pass to Gallon in the ND game was about 40ish yards right on target, along with some throws that he threads right over a LB and right to a guy's numbers. However, his decison making is most of the times not very good.
Way too many jump balls and I haven't seen him hit a WR in stride deep all year. One thing that glares to me though is his lack of size (weight -195). Can you imagine Julius Peppers hitting Denard on a full run on his blindside? He'd knock him into next week! I'm in the camp that I don't think he has the smarts, or the arm, or the talent throwing to go to the next level as a QB. 3rd down back, punt returner, slot reciever? Sure - I think he'd be fine. But even entertaining the thought of him as a QB at the next level, in all honesty just seems kind of silly to me.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:05 PM ^
Coming into this season I kept thinking that I don't care how explosive Denard can be at times, I just want him to manage the game properly. There is nothing wrong with Denard's throwing when he sets his feet and throws to an open receiver. My problem with the situation is that I am sure in practice Denard is composed, makes good decisions, and delivers the ball well. The only game this season where I thought he properly managed the game and made good decisions throughout was the Minnesota game, which was essentially a scrimmage. In games against decent competition he dances around and throws some of the worst passes I have ever seen from an FBS team's Junior, starting quarterback.
And you guys need to realize that this isn't a question of Devin starting over Denard, but rather what position Denard should be starting at. Should Denard remain a QB, or should he be moved to RB or Slot WR. I would like to see what happens if Devin was QB with Denard as RB for an entire drive. I feel this would give us our best chance at winning. IIRC, we ran a couple of jet sweeps to the left around Lewan with Denard coming from the slot receiver position to the right and getting the handoff from Devin, each of which got 10+ yards.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:41 PM ^
Meaning, I've seen Denard make all matter of throws. But he's quarterback. I don't want to watch every pass like it's some 15 foot jumpshot where 40% is great and consequently I expect more often than not for him to clunk all manner of shots/throws in between. There comes a threshold where missed throws means stalled series means less Denard on the field, and is that worth "every play starting with him" vs. "more total plays with him in the game"?
October 17th, 2011 at 5:07 PM ^
that our O line isn't good against decent to good Defenses, especially when asked to pass block traditionally. The question is this though. Which one is better:
1) Devin @ QB, Denard at slot/rb/wr...
2) Denard @ QB, Devin on the bench.
Those are the 2 options. It's a tough question, but I trust the coaches on this. My wild ass guess is that Denard starts and plays QB the rest of the season (except for the 2QB sets) and that next year, Devin starts with Denard in the slot/rb/wr position. Devin needs an entire offseason as the QB, and Borges needs to tweek Denard's O, to fit him, and it's not worth it 7 games in.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:22 PM ^
Wow. I seriously cannot believe we're having this conversation after a game where our OL just didn't block and there were 40 MPH winds. The bottom line is that Denard is the most explosive player on the field and on a team where the RB are underwhelming and the WR are above average (but not explosive), the fact that the defense has to key on Denard so much opens up an enormous portion of the offense. In our 3 games against BCS types before the State game, we scored 35, 58, and 42. If you go to last year, we struggled against MSU(both) and OSU, but other than that Denard moved the ball against every defense we played. I think Devin Gardner is going to be a fantastic player. I also think, however, that Denard gives us, by far, the best chance to win.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:47 PM ^
He was probably just distracted by the trash.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:20 PM ^
to all the difficulties the offense is having with the passing game? WR's get complacent, TE's quit running routes, lineman lose track of where the QB is at, etc., etc., etc. How long do you allow a QB to play regardless of how much you like him or how talented he is when he completes less than 50% of his passes. DR is one dimensional and a great runner but he can't throw the football. His misses are so pathetic, his timing is so bad, his patience is even worse, that you can't win against quality competition with him at this position. Turn him into a Percy Harvin type player. Keep him on the field, line him up all over the place, get him 15 touches a game but don't let him throw the football because he is not effective. This is a big boy conference. If you enjoy seeing DR run up Heisman type numbers against mediocre teams and then go in the toilet against tough competition then your not a football fan. You become as complacent as the team that should win but doesn't. This whole team is impacted by the way DR plays. How discouraged can they be when passes sail 10-15 yards over open WR's. How discouraged do they get when wide open WR's don't get thrown to. This TEAM has to work together to accomplish their common goals. If one part does not work. Change it out. Nice kid, fantastic runner, but don't fall in love with a broken part. The machine will continue to run but the machine will not run effectively. The Team, the Team, the Team.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:38 PM ^
"With DG in the game we would be one dimensional". And with Denard in we are multi-dimensional?