No love for Cox? I think he can play very well in this kind of downhill running system. He certainly feels that he will do well (and that RR didnt use him well)
Who is the starting RB on this team?
Im not sure if he's going to start, but he'll get a shot.
I hope so!
Cox has fumbling problems and missed a lot of assignments. In addition, he tends to go east and west instead of going north and south. No coach would play Cox if he consistently miss assignments and doesn't go north and south as quickly as possible.
If Cox continue to have that kind issues, you bet your butt that Hoke won't play him at RB.
Cox has fumbling problems...
I believe Cox and Toussaint are the only running backs who haven't fumbled in their careers.
...and missed a lot of assignments.
I remember one missed assignment, and it was in the BGSU game last year.
In addition, he tends to go east and west instead of going north and south.
He has 19 carries for 169 yards in his career, an average of 8.89 yards per carry. As far as I remember, not once has he shown a propensity for dancing in the backfield.
told by the student managers. The coaches were hard on Cox(that's what she said) at practices and Cox continues to make mental errors at practice.
Cox wasn't exactly broken up by the firing of Rodriguez. He knows he should have been on the field more. And regardless of what happens in practice, some guys are just gamers - Cox seems to be one of them.
I'm not saying you're lying or that those student managers are lying, but in actual game situations, Cox has arguably been the best back on the roster for two years now.
Yeah, but when did those yards come. Didn't he have a huge run vs. BG that was triggered by a huge hole? In my eyes, the jury is still out simply bc he hasn't done it with the game on the line to the best of my knowledge
It's tough to do with the game on the line when the coach doesn't put you in the game.
Still, go back to the 2009 Eastern Michigan game and tell me you're not impressed by Cox's runs in that game.
Bottom line: He gets it done when he's on the field.
Poor Cox:( he's getting the same raw deal as Uncle Rico
You said raw cox.
It's possible Magnus would switch "teams" for Cox. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I have to say . . . I'm a fan of Cox.
well eastern did go winless that year did they not? i know it was one of the few games he played in, but still hard to judge him on the few games he has played in.
You have to admit that it's a stretch to gauge a guy's on field performance on 19 career touches, especially when they've all come in mop up time!
Arguably the best back? I guess... then Touissant or Hopkins could also arguably the best back. After all, Hopkins averages a TD every 9 carries, and Touissant averages 10.9 YPC in his career!
Do you really think RichRod would sit Cox for no reason when the team was in desperate need of a RB to step up?
Arguably the best back? I guess... then Touissant or Hopkins could also arguably the best back.
Okay. That's fine. I don't think you people understand the word "arguably."
Do you really think RichRod would sit Cox for no reason when the team was in desperate need of a RB to step up?
No. I'm sure there's a reason. Just like I'm sure there was a reason that Demens didn't surpass Ezeh earlier, that Cam Gordon started at FS, that he tried to kick a FG in the Gator Bowl, etc. There's always a reason. That doesn't mean the reason was a good one.
You can't reward a player by playing him in the games if he isn't getting it done in practice. What is the team going to think if he gets to play while Shaw, Fitz, Smith, Hopkins sit out even though they outperform him in practice? This is just another case of people thinking the backup is better than the starter based on very limited information. I will trust that the coaches, knowing winning is very important, would not have benched Cox if they actually thought he was better than the other RBs.
Also those stats Cox has put up were against Eastern Michigan, Delaware State and Bowling Green so take that with a grain of salt. If you are honestly going to say he is the most productive back on the team based on limited action against those 3 teams then you are crazy.
You and I and nobody else has seen him play against a legitimate team, nor have we seen him in practice so it is completely asinine to insist he is the best RB on the team.
Plus I don't think I ever saw him pass-block. He could have been a serious liability if they wanted to pass with him in the game.
The same shit was said about Demens not starting. Then he started and we were all left thinking why the hell he wasn't starting from the beginning. Don't sleep on Cox (TWSS) this year. I normally err on the side of the coaches, but this last staff's ability to recognize and develop talent left a few things to be desired.
You can reward a kid if he's making an effort in practice. If he's making honest mistakes with high effort, you can put him in the game in certain situations. If he's just flat-out being lazy, then you're right.
Here's what I would think if someone put a good back in the game who misses occasional assignments:
I'm glad the coaches are putting in a running back who gives us a chance to win.
And you know that he was making an effort in practice how? Based on the comments he made when the coaches were fired I would venture to guess he didn't make a great effort in practice. The comments he made were classless and shows that he probably didn't give his full effort for them. Cox definitely has some raw talent, but you need to be able to pass block and catch passes out of the backfield in addition to just running the ball if you want to be an all-around back.
You honestly can tell me that Cox was making mistakes with high effort? And even that concept is ridiculous... if he makes mistakes but gives a lot of effort he is no different than Rudy.. Coaches need to have confidence that you are not going to make mistakes in the games if they put you in. You can't just say well you work hard, but there's a decent chance that you will miss an assignment or fumble the ball.. we'll put you in anyways. If there are players who don't miss assignments and give high effort WITHOUT the mistakes then they are the ones who need to see the field.
I don't think you can tell from comments he made on January 6th, 2011 (or thereabouts) how much of an effort he made on August 1, 2008 or September 14th, 2009 or November 2nd, 2010.
And like I said, Michael Cox hasn't fumbled once in a game situation. Some guys are gamers. Some aren't. Cox might fumble the ball the next 5 times he touches it in a game, but so far, Vincent Smith has a much higher turnover rate.
Arguably the best back on the roster based on 19 carries against EMU, DSU, and BGSU?
"Arguably" is the operative word here.
We're arguing it. And 8.89 yards a carry speaks for itself, whether it's against BGSU or Ohio State. He's not going to average almost 9 YPC for his entire career, but he's fast and breaks tackles. Hopkins isn't very fast, Smith can't break tackles.
That's why I said below that Shaw, Toussaint, and Cox might be a three-headed race for the starting job in September.
Except there is no argument you could possibly make that means anything. 8.89 yards per carry against BGSU/DSU/EMU does not speak for itself. Denard had what? 25 YPC against BGSU? David Cone lit up the DSU D, and EMU is and always will be EMU.
...The fast/break tackles thing is still relevant...regardless of competition
I'm not going to jump into this argument here but I'll throw in my two cents. I remember when Carlos Brown left, he said Mike Cox was easily 'the best athlete' at running back.
You could compare his YPC versus those teams to the other RBs YPC against those teams...
I'm sorry, did Vincent Smith's 4.6 yards a carry and (I think) five fumbles convince you he was the best back on the team?
Did Hopkins' 37 carries convince you he's the best back on the team?
Did Toussaint's 4 carries convince you he's the best back on the team?
They're all unproven . . . or proven to be mediocre.
So like I said, Cox is "arguably" the best back on the team.
Smith has gained over 1000 All-Purpose yards in his short UM career while finding the end zone ten times.
Shaw has gained over 900 All-Purpose yards, averaged 5.4 YPC last season, and has found the end zone twelve times.
I think it's safe to say Cox is not even in the discussion of front-runner for returning starter, and if you actually believe he is and are not just playing devil's advocate then i'm wasting my words explaining this to you.
Look through this thread. I don't think anyone has mentioned that they think Smith will be the starter next year. And despite the fact that he's gained over 1,000 all-purpose yards, many of those yards have been somewhat unimpressive. It's hard not to be the leading yardage gainer when you get the majority of the touches.
So I would argue that Smith shouldn't have a horse in this race.
I honestly think Smith is the fourth-best running back on this team, maybe even fifth.
Rich Rodriguez went 15-22 in three seasons and got little production from the running back position. I think it might be safe to assume that when it came to running backs, he didn't exactly make the best decisions while he was in Ann Arbor.
assessment of RR. He obviously has an eye for talent when it comes to runners. At WV and Denard here at Michigan. You can't find talent like that and then be incompetent in fielding the best RB you have. It just doesn't compute IMO.
I'm not claiming to know why it happened...
...but it did.
Everybody 'round these parts could see that Smith wasn't cut out to be the starter...right? Right?
VINCENT SMITH ISN'T A FUMBLER!!!
I absolutely agree. RR conistently trotted Smith out in clutch short yardage situations like he had naked pictures of his wife. I watched the videos of Smith from that those first practices and was excited as anyone else about how "shifty" he was. However, I cannot see how anybody would think of the "shifty" little back as an everydown, between the tackles runner. Also, if we are going to disallow Cox' stats because they came against lesser competition, do we have to adjust Denard's stats? Roundtree's? Give me a break.
I don't agree with your evaluation of Cox (other than your point that everyone should love Cox, which like...obviously). I do remember him getting a couple carries this year and dancing around in the backfield and having RR got ape shit on him. Anyway, we just disagree that he could be the best RB on the team, I do agree that he has some skill.
On V. Smith, I can say I agree 100% with you. Full disclosure I have never been of the opinion that he should be our starting RB but that is because he has never done anything on the field to show me that he is better than any of the alternatives (short of blocking perhaps). He breaks zero tackles and fumbles way too much.
I think it is a four horse race, as I think Hopkins would have a shot in this offense. In the end though, I think it will be Shaw winning it. He is a big back with great speed who can block and break tackles. I still see the others getting some snaps though. Perhaps this is more what I hope than what I think will happen because honestly, I have no idea.
RR has found good runners but I strongly believe they were a product of his system. Pat White and Steve Slaton were tremendous college backs that were properly utilized in RR's spread offense. When they got to the NFL, they were nothing more than good backups or change of pace players. And yes I know a lot of that has to do with their small stature.
Steve Slaton did have over 1200 rushing yards and nearly 400 yards receiving his rookie year, I would say that is fairly respectable.
Sorry for the double post
i like vince a lot. he's real good in space. he was tentative on that recovering knee all year. if he is like that next year, then he will never recover. but he should be and will be an asset for this team. but like i said earlier, i think shaw is the most complete back.
and i'll admit i didn't read much of your guys' assessment of mike cox. but i will tell you the reason he didnt play had nothing to do with his physical talent. he might be the most physically gifted RB on the team. the problem was that he started playing football i believe junior year of high school. he is still learning.
the most positive thing to take is that we have a bunch of running backs who are all capable of breaking out.
vince can have a big year coming back from a knee injury. he's quick and shifty.
shaw can have a big year. senior leader ready to show people what he can do with his speed and surprising power, with hopefully no injuries.
cox can break out with his physical abilities and outstanding jump cut.
fitz could break out because he is a natural runner. he looks comfortable as he runs.
the question is, who breaks out?
Since when is 900 APY considered a benchmark as a stud RB at Michigan? If he had 900 yards rushing alone, sure. But 900 APY with more fumbles in one season than Mike Hart's entire career? I think not. Welcome to the scout team, Mr. Smith.
or anything close to it. What I was implying is that Mike Cox should not even be in this conversation. If he was that good, he would already have been playing. It's that simple.
it's not that simple. some players take longer to develop (see: denard robinson).
Saying Smith is the best running back because he had the most production is like saying Kovacs is Michigan's best defender because he had a lot of tackles.
And saying Cox is arguably the best back is like saying that Furman is arguably the best Safety.
pointing out that he tore it up against DSU, EMU, and BGSU... REALLY???
Maybe we need a lesson in sample sizes?
John McColgan had 1 catch for a TD. Is he "ARGUABLY" our best reciever?
But this same argument could have been made against Kenny Demens before he entered the lineup. Ezeh wasn't great, but Demens was behind him, so he must have been even worse, right?
Sometimes coaches get it wrong. Brandent Englemon used to start every year on the bench and then always found his way into the lineup by the end of September, when the "superior" guy at safety didn't pan out. And of course, Lloyd Carr once was convinced that Drew Henson was the best QB on the roster in 1999 (and went to a platoon largely as a favor to Brady, the returning starter).
I think Shaw has to be the favorite going in because of his experience and style. I do agree though, those three will likely be the three competing for the job initially. Hopkins sort of serves a different purpose and won't likely be the "featured" back, btu he will get his too because no one else brings the hammer like he does. Of course, he could prove me wrong, lose a couple pounds, get faster and just be impossible to consistently stop. I'm a big fan of Hopkins but also relize he isn't a huge big play threat.
I do feel bad for Vincent Smith in this whole deal too. It seem to me like he will be squeezed out and I don't know where he goes from there.
forget our "insider" FormerWolv predicted cox to start the year. obviously he was wrong, but fromerwolv was arguably closer to the action than all of us and still came to that opinion.
(not too mention the other rbs on the team gave a lot of credit to cox, too)
cox may still have a small sample size against weak competition, but im still eager to see what he can do if given another opportunity.
I remember him saying just before the end of fall camp that Toussaint appeared to have taken hold of the No. 1 RB job -- then he got hurt, of course.
I don't remember the comment about Cox (not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't specifically remember it). But I do think Cox, Toussaint and Shaw will all be given plenty of opportunities to earn the starting job.
when in reality, he doesn't deserve to be on the field. When you have 4-5 RBs in front of you see time on the field in a significant action, well you know that you're not good enough to see time on the field. It's different if you're a backup but to be buried in depth chart as a 6th string RB, whole different story.
He may have the natural ability, but he doesn't have the mental side down pat. If he knows the playbook and do his assignment correctly on a consistent basis, he'd be the starting back.
The numbers don't lie, my friend. You shouldn't spend your entire career on the bench when you're averaging almost 9 yards a carry as a running back.
Denard doesn't know the whole offense and/or can't run it effectively. He was taken off the field when we needed to pass late in the game against Iowa, right? Didn't we almost completely give up on the I-formation in 2010?
Make sure that Cox can run 10 plays. Put him in the game once in awhile, run a few of those 10 plays, then take him out. You don't have to master the entire playbook to make an impact. I don't see Ronnie Brown taking 5- or 7-step drops down in Miami. Why? Because he's the Wildcat quarterback, runs it effectively, and then goes back to his role as a running back.
"Cox has been arguably the bast back on the roster for two years now"
19 carries for 169 yards.... That's your opinion on a kid with 19 carries. I have high hopes for him too but you are seriously reaching here.
Not really. Are you convinced that Vincent Smith is the best back? I doubt it. Are you convinced that Hopkins is? I doubt it. Are you convinced that Shaw is? Maybe. Are you convinced that Toussaint is? Probably not.
I thought people on this board would understand the implications of the word "arguably" but I guess not.
I’m convinced that people can put “arguably” in front of just about anything so when called out they can refer to the fact they weren’t 100% sure about it.
In that case they are all “arguably” the best back on the team based on little evidence. Denard is arguably the best back because he had the most carries. Fitz is arguably to the best back because he averaged 10.9 YPC. And on, and on…
If I make a statement, I stand behind it. You will find no shortage of me making definitive claims on this board.
When I say "arguably," I use it in the way that the word was intended to be used.
Alright I can finally say something now that I am a former manager, but Cox did not play because he did miss lots of assignments. Michigan4Life has heard correctly. He does have the most physical gifts out of any one of the rbs, but has lacked the mental side of things. Magnus probably knows the most of any one of the posters on this site, probably because he has insider info. However, he does not know everything. I hope Cox can find a way to thrive in the new system, but if he continues to go left instead of right he will never play. Thanks for listening.
Denard Robinson missed a lot of assignments, too. But he still got on the field because, well, he was the best option.
Smith went the correct way...and fumbled the ball a bunch of times.
I'd rather have a dude go the wrong way once in awhile than hand the ball to the other team.
see where your going with this, but a missed blocking assignment gets #16 KILLED! I'm not a big V Smith fan anymore, but he was a pretty sound assignment wise.
I agree. I'm not arguing that a missed assignment is inconsequential. It's surely a bad thing. But Vincent Smith proved to be a fumbler, regardless of Rodriguez's insistence otherwise.
Like I said, I'd rather take a chance with a missed assignment than a fumble from a guy who's not even that great of a runner.
was a guy who didn't' practic'e well......but was a gamer! Play Cox a quarter and see what happens.
I disagree somewhat. A missed blocks consequences could be so much worse. If he missed and gave someone a clean shot at Denard from the blindside, that could be terrible. A fumble is just one play. The missed block could be the season. I know what your saying but those mistakes aren't equal in consequence.
It's also possible that on a Vincent Smith fumble, Denard could break a finger on his throwing hand while trying to recover the ball or dislocate his shoulder trying to make the tackle. And in the meantime, the other team gets the ball.
Can I get your book? You need to post a lot more if you have the insight. You have 90% ignorant babblings in these posts and you have the goods and don't let it out? Let it flow man. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
What do you think of our newest commit, Tamani Carter?
Well...er...uh...I mean...I'd rather use the scholarship on someone instead of letting it go to waste. I'm not a fan of banking scholarships for next year, so like...I guess I'm okay with it.
Do you like his upside? Or do you think he's a career backup/special teamer
...I'd rather use the scholarship than not use the scholarship.
if we find someone better, Miles can just tell this kid to take a hike.
...seems to like Carter a lot.
Maybe they rave like this for every recruit (apologies if so), but some there are some pretty strongly positive statements from Andy Reid (but not that Andy Reid):
I don't really have much to criticize from what I see here. They have tape of him defending myriad routes, in different positions on the field, and he shows the ability to defend all of them
He's only a three-star, but I don't see much to criticize. I think he may have flew under the radar a bit. It's a big get for Hoke and his new staff.
Based on natural instinct alone, I'm going to say Leon Hall (starting CB from 2003-2006). I know that's a very lofty comparison, because Hall is one of the best cornerbacks Michigan has had in recent history, but I see that kind of natural ability in Carter
Watched his film, seems like an ok 3-star. I know it's enticing to hype every Michigan commit - and label the unknown recruits as "sleepers." But seemd like a backup to me.
I have frequent contact with a recent graduated Michigan RB, one who has worked out with Cox (and Barwis). At the start of this past season I asked him who the most talented RB was, and he immediately responded Mike Cox. Howeva....... he did say that Cox had some issues when it came to learning the playbook.... I really hope he gets more chances to prove his ability this season. I like what I have seen from him thus far.
That's what Natalie Portman said.
You said no love for Cox!!
I would say a mix of Cox, Fitz, and Hopkins. I'm really hoping for Fitz to have a breakout year, but that would require him to stay healthy first.
No Shaw? I thought he was our best back this year.
Apparently cox has that honor and has for two years.
Mixed Cox Fitz in a Hopkins? TMI
I'd like to see Hopkins assume a Brandon Jacobs role, one that he seems able to fill out nicely. I think it should definitely be by committee unless someone pulls out as a clear #1, whether it's Shaw, Hopkins, etc. I completely agree that Smith shouldn't be getting many carries in this type of offense, but it's not up to me, and he could potentially surprise us.
I'm hoping that we have a 1,000 yard RB rusher for the first time since Hart (I think that's correct?), but I don't think it's going to happen with our RB by committee. Hopefully someone can step up
shaw. he's the most complete back. good speed. plays with passion. willing to lower the shoulder.
Maybe it is just me, but I hate the way he acts like Ray Lewis coming out of the tunnel every time he makes a play. He could have a 10 yard run and hell throw the ball flex hard and start screaming like he just Denarded the entire defense. I like his plays, but I'm so scared he is going to get us a penalty I would rather him do the Barry Sanders and just hand the ball to the ref.
Is that how you saw it?
I felt like often Shaw would have a good 8 yard run and be one tackle from breaking it free. I felt most his antics were more frustration of just missing a big one, not celebrating.
Shaw's personality. I don't mind it at all.
I'll start minding it more when the NCAA's new, Draconian celebration rules kick in for next year.
I think Shaw could have a break out year. He was underused by RRod. Lots of talent, lots of toughness.
Underused or injured? Get your facts straight.
lots of injuries..
In what way is he the most complete back? He can't catch passes out of the back field consistently, and often missed cut back lanes and was the same as Vinnie -- that is no tough yardage on short yard offensive schemes.
i didnt realize how many drops he had. he must've had a lot for you to make that assumption.
but with his mixture of size, speed, power, toughness, and pass blocking ability, i think he is the most complete back on this roster.
Did you watch any games that he actually played in last year? I saw him get plenty of tough yards and one particularly that stands out. I forget the game but he had a long TD run that he finished off by dragging two defenders the final 8 yards into the endzone.
If you don't like Shaw that's fine, but don't try to disqualify him from the debate by making things up.
I have always loved big running backs. Maybe cause I grew up on Wheatley, Thomas, Biakabatuku, Perry ect. ect. so im loving Hopkins, but I hope it's a good mixture of small and large. It is so hard to pick one or two cause we have so many and have yet to see the potential of a lot of them.
Shaw, Toussaint and Hopkins would get the first crack. Vincent Smith will also challenge but isn't the type of back that Hoke look for in a RB IMO.
I know that Hopkins is not the fastest but I just really like the way that he plays. He is a tough bruiser of a back and I have always liked guys that could run like that. Adam Robinson at Iowa was like that and I enjoyed watching him.
Speaking of Iowa and RBs. Coker scares the shit out of me. He is a truck.
I want to see a healthy Fitz starting.
Just to refresh my excitement about Fitz I just watched one of his HS highlight videos and MAN do I want this kid to get healthy.
I want to see a healthy Fitz
As do i. We have a nice situation on our hands with all of these capable backs.
I'd say Shaw and Fitz split the bulk of the carries and Hopkins gets some short yardage and goaline carries, Fitz was the RB I was most excited to see last year and I really think he can be special if he stays healthy. I think V. Smith doesn't fit the system and Cox i just don't know cause RR apparently wasn't a fan so I didn't get to see him play.
Remember we're actually going to be huddling and running in situational substitutes.
1st and second down back:
Goal line and Short Yardage:
Hopkins (fumbles too much to be featured back)
3rd down back = Smith
I think many of you guys are overrating Hopkins. It's not that I think he's bad, but several guys have a more well rounded set of skills. In addition, Hoke/Borges haven't always been huge proponents of big backs (see last year's 175-180 pounders in SDSU's backfield), and their commitment to Denard implies that they'll still spread the field a little bit.
If Toussaint stays healthy, I think it's a good race between him, Shaw, and Cox to be the feature back.
I don't mean to discount Mike Cox because he's got all the physical tools, but I'm sure Rich Rodriguez would have used him if he believed he was the best back. I recall watching an interview of Roy Roundtree to which he said (paraphrased), "Man, Mike Cox...I don't know what goes on in his brain. He's got rocks in his head." I'm not saying that's true, but combining that with the fact that Rich Rodriguez has thrown his headset in disgust when watching Mike Cox ruin perfectly good plays by improvising...I just don't know.
I hope this is not true though and that he pans out because apparently he's Ladainian Tomlinson with the power of Ron Dayne...except with speed.
Rich Rodriguez also played Sam McGuffie (4.1 yards a carry) ahead of Brandon Minor (5.2 yards a carry) and Vincent Smith (4.6 yards a carry) over Michael Shaw (5.4).
Rodriguez ignored production and played his favorites while he was here. Hopefully, Michigan's new coaches deploy their personnel more effectively.
If Minor and Shaw could stay healthy I'm sure they would have seen more playing time.
Minor had some nagging injuries in 2008, but he was available. Rodriguez still chose to play McGuffie over him.
RR loved Minor if he was healthy he would have played. No other player saw as much pt with no practice time.
While I agree with you that RR did not use the best backs, in 2008, whenever Minor came in, he fumbled. It wasn't until he got healthy that he got away from his 20% fumble rate. RR would allow Minor to stay in until he fumbled. Once he stopped fumbling, he got to stay in.
I don't want to completely rehash those old arguments from 2008, but...
...while Minor fumbled a lot, he was also scoring touchdowns at a ridiculous rate. It was a high risk, high reward situation with him.
When Smith fumbled a lot...Smith kept getting a majority of the carries.
No, Magnus is right. It was a nagging wrist injury that was supposedly to blame on a September fumble. But go back and watch Minor's leaping TD run in September at home.
It's clear it was a minor nagging injury for Minor.
RR started McGuffie over Minor, and Sheridan over Threet that September. Deal with it.
People also forget that Roundtree never existed until Odoms could not play due to injury.
I think Hayes has may have a shot to be the tailback. Could be the truth.
Cox is very talented and I believe will be the big surprise onthe offense next year.
as long as it isn't vincent smith all be all set. i almost broke my TV watching him last year, i know he has the speed to be a good back but he doesn't have the explosiveness and can't run through holes very well. i think it should be toussaint and shaw based on the glimmers of hope i saw in the very little time toussaint wasn't injured. i liked shaw when they ran him up the middle in between blockers but i couldn't stand it when RR had him do runs along the outside because he doesn't have the speed to get around the edge.
With Shaw being a senior and possesing the most talent, he would be my pick to click, if he stays healthy.
I actually just watched this Mike Cox highlight video, and although there were no games against real competition, the dude can break tackles. He's definitely a Carr-era back:
I hadn't seen this before, but yeah...he's pretty good. There are also a couple good runs against EMU that were missing from that reel.
One of those runs, he got hit, his feet went into the air above his head, he somehow landed on his feet and continued to run. That was the run that sold me on him.
Delaware St and the spring game? That's your sample?
We exist on a blog that judges players on their performances against high school opponents, kids who won't be good enough to make the local community college's flag football team.
Outrunning a college athlete is outrunning a college athlete.
Breaking a tackle is breaking a tackle.
I admit that Ohio State's players are going to run faster and tackle better than Delaware State, but how much faster and better? If his 8.89 yards a carry drops to 5.89 yards a carry, isn't that still pretty good? What about 4.89?
I'm not convinced that playing every opponent on the schedule would make Cox's 8.89 yard average drop below, say, Smith's 4.6.
Glad to see your willing to admit that Ohio State's defense is better than Delaware State's.
I love when people try to point out others' stupid comments in the midst of confusing the whole your/you're thing.
For the correction of your/you're
You're right:) Been up since 3:30 and I'm a little cranky. But thanks for admitting your argument is stupid, especially since I have seen you on the other side of this argument regarding Vincent Smith.
Ummm...exactly when was I on the other side of this argument regarding Vincent Smith? I haven't been a fan of Vincent Smith's abilities for his entire career at Michigan. He's not up to par with Michigan's other running backs.
When people were touting Vincent Smith's stats against the Delaware State, you disregarded his stats because of the competition. At least that is how I remember it but I don't keep a file on your posts, so I can't look it up.
What I said about Delaware State/Vincent Smith was that he didn't do anything exceptional against anyone but Delaware State. IIRC, removing Delaware State from the mix last year left Vincent Smith with approximately a 3.5 yard average and 0 touchdowns (I'm not looking at the stats, so I could be slightly off).
I'm really looking forward to Hopkins in some short yardage situations and to see him wear down a defense over the course of a game.
HOPKINS. nuff said. Big back...perfect for between the tackles. can run over tackles. just need to hold on to the ball a little bit more.
With these linemen and Denard Robinson, I don't think Hoke/Borges will necessarily be looking for a power back just to run between the tackles.
One of my biggest frustrations with RR was his incistence to always start vinny smith. I lways felt smith was a good 3rd down change of pace back, after the knee injury theres no way he was an every down guy. I thought Shaw always played well but could never get into a rhythm because RR would take him out. He's got the most experience in the backfield and I think he could really break out if given the oppertunity to be the main guy.
I liked what I saw in Hopkins but he needs to develope a little. I also think people are giving a lot of credit to Fitz, who has not been healthy long enough to show that he can be a main guy at this level.
Although Cox is a real dark horse pick, ill be interested in what he does come spring practice.
He is physical, and his speed is deceptive.
My best guess. Hopkins gets the bulk of of the carries to start the year. By mid season I think Fitz starts to take over. Think Touchdown Tims jr type year for Fitz. (I'm not predicting 313 vs osu but one can hope)
to see how this plays out too they are all good in their own skill set. Id say the battle for starting position will be intense. I think Smiths lack of success had alot to do with the play calling hes a stout runner I seen him upend MM in practice or spring game cant remember which but the boys got some moves. How many times did RR send him on a suicide mission straight up the middle same play over and over...
Fitz all the way. Shaw being the back-up who still gets a lot of carries. Hopkins will be a short yardage back.
It will be interesting to see what another year of S&C does for Hopkins. He was a big kid as a frosh. If he can stay the same size and add speed or put on weight and keep his speed, he could see his number called a lot. You just don't waste a fast 230 pounder or a pretty fast 240 pounder at RB.
Shaw will be the starter, Hopkins will be the third down/goal line guy, and Smith will come in for 3 or 4 carries a game, just to be fresh legs. As for Toussaint, I'm not sold, he wasn't very consistent, but that was most likely a result of him being banged up. Toussaint needs to prove himself, it seems.
Toussaint for the win!
I hope we have someone emerge in this new offense, because that is exactly what was missing the last 3 years.
Someone was always hurt, or no one emerged as an every down back.
That is what fucked RR's system from ever really taking off. Instead of having a Devine/Slaton option at RB, we were forced to use Denard way too much.
Hopefully someone emerges and has a break out year.
Soooooo.....not Vincent Smith then?
Toussaint! He had 8 carries and 87 yards! He was just always hurt. Hopefully he can rehabilitate this spring.
... like 60 of those yards came on one carry against bowling green.
Vincent Smith will surprise.
Especially after another year to recover from his ACL tear. They say it takes two (years) to really get back. I still can't believe he played last year as effectively as he did, I mean, given that he suffered his injury so late in the prior year vs. OSU...
But yeah, I agree, don't sleep on Smith. I like all our backs in one way or another, and can't wait to see what happens.
we had one first team all american RB, might as well let him keep up the good work...Denard for heisman!
continued trolling for Cox. You've been wrong about him from day 1 but STILL won't let it go.
Also, I hope Cox never plays a down of football after dancing on RR's grave and publicly calling him DickRod after he was fired. I've never said a personally-negative thing about a current UM player but honestly, fuck that guy.
My money is on Shaw. Senior, speedy, willing to break tackles, no big fumbling issue.
What was I wrong about? I said I thought he might be Michigan's starter/leading rusher this year, and yeah, I was wrong about that.
Just because he didn't start doesn't mean that he wasn't better than the starter. Unless you're somehow convinced that Vincent Smith is a stud.
That being said, I agree that Cox was a little immature when Rodriguez left. He could have handled it like more of an adult. But I also think he was getting a raw deal, and I don't think one comment from any player would make me wish that player "never plays a down of football." Let's keep things in perspective.
What was I wrong about .... I was wrong about that.
I think you answered the question for yourself there Magnus.
I'll take Shaw. He attacked the holes and he can do a little bit of everything. Plus he has lost zero fumbles in his career.
think it could be one of these three guys,Shaw,Hopkins or Toussaint.GO BLUE!!!
yea def. give hopkins a shot first. He has great size for the system and showed flashes of the talent that he has this year. Borges should start developing him now
My guess would be Shaw at RB and Hopkins at FB since he's proven to be a fairly good blocker. If Hoke/Borges adapt the offensive system to include a 3 WR instead of a FB then I'd see Shaw/Hopkins/Cox splitting carries.
I think hopkins will have a breakout year. He won't be starting, i think that goes to shaw. But hopkins and fitz will split time equally after him.
it will be between shaw, fitz and Hopkins. I really loved what i saw from Hops this year. My one concern is can he catch out of the back field which is a staple of Borges scheme?
Hail to the Victors Valiant!
i hope it s fitz touissaint, he seems to be the most complete back if he can stay healthy, at 6-0 and 187 , shaw seems tohave a recievers body. i think i heard fred jackson say fitz reminded him of chris perry. i think.
Comparing someone to Chris Perry is a pretty poor endorsement from Fred Jackson. An average endorsement would compare Touissant to Barry Sanders, except shifty, powerful, and fast. I'm not sure what a good one would sound like.
This either means Michigan truly is becoming Notre Dame or Michigan's running back will be divine without having Noel Devine on the roster.
I'd like to see more Cox and Hopkins and less of Smith. FT has yet to prove himself, so I'm looking forward to see him injury free for once. I'm guessing this will be rushing offense by committee again tho.
that's a tough question. I think Fitz will definitely be the small/shifty back of the bunch. I think Cox and Shaw will fight over the power back roll if Cox can keep it together. Unfortunately, I think Hopkins gets the short end of the stick next season. Smith will be last on the depth chart, IMO.
I keep watching Fitz's high school reel and....wow. He's blowing people away, granted its in high school, but the seperation he gets is just phenomenal
That should mean we have a stable of backs that we can rotate in and out. So it may be less important to know who the starter is, but who will get the crunch time carries.
The good thing for Toussaint and Cox is that they're all starting with a clean slate with the new coaching staff, with obvious feedback from Fred Jackson.
who can make it through fall drills without busting his collarbone or tweaking a hammy or spraining his ankle or blowing out a knee. He may not be the most talented RB, but given the ridiculous attrition we've had over the last three years, that might be the most we can hope for.
What has coach Hoke been talking about from the minute he got here? Toughness. Physicality. That means Cox or Hopkins to me. Cox is faster, and more fluid in and out of cuts. Cox is the starter, Hopkins is the short yardage back. Let the others rotate in from time to time, and see who emerges as the #2 guy. I think Fitz wins the "change of pace" back and will be a nice burst of speed to keep opposing teams on their toes.
Mike Cox will start at RB in the Fall.
We have votes for 5 RBs in this thread! Someone will have to step up. We have quotes from both Fitz and Cox stating in the old regime they were hoping the coaches would trust them to play. They each had reasons they didn't play.
I'm just glad Denard won't have to carry the load in the Red Zone. Btw Cox, Shaw, Fitz, and Hopkins someone will rise up as the go to back when we need it. It's the official no excuses year for these 4 backs.
It will be a fresh start for all concerned and the speed in which they master the new offense plus the willingness to block and the ability to catch a ball out of the backfield without putting them on the carpet may be part of the decision Coach Hoke has to make. ************* ********** come on down.
Shaw showed some real good toughness this year when he wasn't injured. Key point being when he wasn't injured.
That being said, I would like to see us use our bigger backs this year like Fitz, Hopkins and Cox.
Smith should be in as a third-down back and in special situations. I appreciate his toughness and effort, but we need someone who will break tackles consistently.
of the bigger backs getting more carries this season.
Fitz Toussaint > all others.
The reason Smith played is because he put in effort. I cant remember which game it was but he blocked a guy twice his size and got a concussion because of it. You can not argue with that