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When does Trash Talking go over the line?

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:21 AM
#1
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
MGoPoints: 17271
When does Trash Talking go over the line?

Is there such a thing as trash talking going too far? I know that Rose and Webber were really into trash talking, and Michael Jordan was also a master at it.

In the ESPN article on the Gholston suspension, there is a comment about the context for the punch to Lewan:

Gholston, a sophomore and a starter, said in a statement that he was provoked to react.

I get that Glolston was provoked. I also get that on the field, some players would do anything to gain an advantage. Does that mean anything can be said? I'm thinking about next year. Can Lewan say to Gholston, when they're on the ground after a play, just the two of them, [EDIT:  My original hypothetical example was over the line for several bloggers, so I am striking / editing it. My original question, BTW, is not about what Lewan said or didn't say. I'm not speculating on that. I'm interested in whether or not trash talking can go too far.]  "You're a ******* ****** ******, and your mother is a cranked out ****** ***** who'll do anything for her next fix. She'd even **** *** if someone paid her enough." Can Lewan do opposition research and throw out insulting but true statements about Gholston's relatives or friends or history to provoke Gholston to punch again?

Obviously, we're not talking about any public statements . . . the players know that you can't do politically incorrect things. But tactically, would players do something like that? I can easily imagine that there are some guys out there that have no personal boundaries.

Myself, I think things like that go over the line and are just wrong. But I can easily imagine some guys being big enough tools to do that kind of trash talking. More than once, I've seen Lewan described here as a "nasty" player who likes to ride donkeys, and he's not an idiot. He knows that the refs will be watching for Gholston, and all he has to do is pull Gholston's chain enough to get him ejected from the game.

I guess I'm wondering if players nowadays have an internal code tacitly agreed upon about what is ok and what is over the line, and not ok.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:26 AM
#2
jg2112
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Joined: 11/25/2008
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it's been documented that a

it's been documented that a number of pro athletes do "opposition research" in order to do proper trash-talking. Jordan, Garnett, Bird, Gary Payton are a few of the guys who I've seen in print that would do such research.

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October 21st, 2011 at 9:04 PM
(Reply to #2) #3
brandanomano
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Joined: 09/05/2009
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Jalen Rose also admitted to

Jalen Rose also admitted to doing that in the Fab 5 documentary, but you guys probably all knew that.

edit: I'm not sure if that was a joke or not, but it's modded "funny", so I expect some backlash on this.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:27 AM
#4
elaydin
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That post wasn't safe for

That post wasn't safe for Kass

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:31 AM
(Reply to #3) #5
mgokev
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Joined: 06/17/2009
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NSFSRK

NSFSRK

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:28 AM
#6
LB
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Joined: 09/26/2009
MGoPoints: 10448
I think it is over the line if it leaves the court or field.

I also feel that if it were bad enough that he felt a need to retaliate, his teammates would have been involved. If I acted like an idiot on national tv, I'd probably be trying to hide behind poor excuses myself. I do not see a thing wrong with trying to provoke him into a penalty. In fact, I'll go one step farther. Let's assume that he manages to go to the NFL. What do you think the opposing players are going to do? He has exposed his own weakness, let the show begin, I've been ready!

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:43 AM
(Reply to #4) #7
beantownblues
Joined: 08/10/2011
MGoPoints: 11
I'm not sure

whether there's an unspoken code that players keep within, but I think that there's a point when it gets a excessive.  For example, the difference between calling someone a "n***** faggot" and a "we're gonna run right over you and there's nothing you can do the stop it".  The distinction may not be easily defined, but I'd expect our players to know the difference and hold themselves to a higher standard even if nobody else does.  This is Michigan fergodsakes.

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:43 PM
(Reply to #49) #8
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 11648
If no one is to blame, why

If no one is to blame, why did only one party get suspended? You sound like Gholston trying to justify punching someone

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October 21st, 2011 at 1:40 PM
(Reply to #59) #9
Lionsfan
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How do we know what Lewan

How do we know what Lewan said to him was hateful? We have only one guy (Gholston himself) saying that, just automatically assuming it's true is horribly horribly stupid. There's no way to verify what Lewan might or might not have said beyond Tom.

As for pushing his face in the ground? It's about the only thing Millen said that was right, that kind of stuff goes on all the time, little extra shoves after the whistle while underneath the pile. It's not an excuse to punch a guy

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October 21st, 2011 at 2:31 PM
(Reply to #62) #10
Lionsfan
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No I'm saying the opposite.

No I'm saying the opposite. We don't know what was said, and it's only been 1 person playing the racist angle (which completely doesn't make sense once you think about it for more than 2 seconds).
As for it happening after the whistle? The Lewan action took part right as Roundtree was going down, and the play he did (while not exactly sporting) isn't against the rules. There's nothing that says you can't push a player down into the ground again during the play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqrFztA9boo this has a good angle and you can see Gholston is getting up around the same time Roundtree was taken down.

This wasn't a skirmish that happened 10 seconds after the play was dead, Lewan made a legal play and Gholston responded with a punch

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October 21st, 2011 at 3:49 PM
(Reply to #66) #11
Lionsfan
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Well then I just don't agree

Well then I just don't agree with you. From where I'm standing calling Gholston Tom isn't racist. I think it's somebody making a story up from nothing. Why would Lewan be hurling racial slurs during a game? His entire backfield is black as well as half the  team, what would they think of him if they found out he was saying stuff like that. Not to mention the embarrassement for the Michigan Football Program, "Racist LT called out by Alums and Former Players". So no I don't think calling him Tom was racist in that regard.

Second, pushing a player down on the ground during a play is legal. Punching someone during a play is not. The 2 actions don't match up since Lewan was still playing within the rules. When you've knocked a guy down on the ground you're allowed to push him to keep him down. Is is necessary since the play was far away? Well maybe no, but Lewan has back to the play, so I don't think he knows exactly when Denard threw the ball. When Gholston threw the punch he was overreacting to a legal play

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October 21st, 2011 at 3:41 PM
(Reply to #59) #12
Carcajous
Joined: 07/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1896
It is simpler than this.

It is simpler than this.  Pushing, holding a guy down after the whistle, saying vile crap (not assuming Lewan did...) is not specifically codified by the Big Ten as resulting in a suspension.  Punching an opposing player is.  Period.

That is why Gholson was suspended for the punch, but not the other stuff.  That is why Lewan is not suspended, even assuming the Big Ten knows exactly what he said and even if he did hold Gholson's head down after the whistle.

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October 21st, 2011 at 3:58 PM
(Reply to #68) #13
Carcajous
Joined: 07/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1896
Taunting is suspendable?

Taunting is suspendable?  Since when?  You have a link to the Big Ten Sportslike Conduct Agreement (the Big Ten does not use the term "unsportsmanlike") sub-section that says taunting is a suspendable offense?  

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:29 AM
#14
yeahrice
Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 277
Trash talk IMO part of

Trash talk IMO part of playing sports. It is not admirable, but getting the opposing team/ players to react and do stupid things can aid your team. Not necessarily to penalize opponents, but moreso to help them make mistakes. It seems like Lewan knew how to get inside Ghoulston's head, causing him to overreact. I'm not buying the notion that Ghoulston was "really jacked up for the game and made a split second poor decision." When you get under someone's skin, they go insane and do really stupid things. Ghoulston was obviously pissed off and couldn't harness his anger without throwing a punch. I'm not sure where the neck twist came from though. Personally, I think that was just a characteristic of his play. He was dirty at Southeastern too.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:30 AM
#15
mgokev
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Joined: 06/17/2009
MGoPoints: 12201
Trash talking goes too far

Trash talking goes too far when you throw a punch.

In all seriousness, trash talking is just a means to get inside to opponent's head to gain a mental advantage that you hope translates into a physical advantage.  Trash talking goes too far when it's insulting to the opposing player and the statements are made in public.  In the trenches, or downfield after a pass breakup, fire away.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:32 AM
#16
megalomanick
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 2300
That was a bit.....much

I mean, I get what you're saying, but your hypothetical quotes kind of made my skin crawl.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:34 AM
#17
Gobluegr
Joined: 07/07/2011
MGoPoints: 671
Once you start calling people

Once you start calling people Tom then all hell should break loose.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:35 AM
#18
MichFan1997
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Joined: 08/04/2008
MGoPoints: 10334
id prefer

That it be limited to stuff actually about the game. I got into it pretty good with a notre dame fan on the golf course, but I never made it personal.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:36 AM
#19
His Dudeness
Joined: 11/24/2008
MGoPoints: -104
Ummm uh... wait what?

Ummm uh... wait what?

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:39 AM
#20
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 111694
Stephen Normally you and i

Stephen

Normally you and i see things very similarly (probably cause we're close to the same age) but i think your examples went "over the line".

You should probably dial those down a bit.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:05 AM
(Reply to #12) #21
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
MGoPoints: 17271
Done

Done. OP edited. However, without examples, how do you know whether trash talking is over the line? Having edited, you can now fill in my blanks to read:

"You're a pretty, pretty, princess, and you're mother is a happy queen."

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:42 AM
#22
Ziff72
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 8249
The Line

It goes over the line when the other player turns into a bitch and tells the media.  That's the only line.  Even your hypothetical lines that are over the top are just words.  If you are so offended say the same thing back to the guy.  Now you're even. 

It's all ridiculous.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:45 AM
#23
Moe Greene
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Joined: 08/01/2008
MGoPoints: 2648
here's what was said.

"Safety school"

OR

"300 was a crappy movie"

 

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:45 AM
#24
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
On Gholston being provoked.

First:  Gholston has not specified what the provocation was.  Verbal provocation?  That would not justify a punch.  Physical provocation?  No doubt Lewan got a hand into Gholston's face mask, and also held Gholston's head down as a play came to conclusion.  But of course, the Big Ten is not accepting that kind of provocation as a defense to a punch.  And Gholston knows a thing or two about getting hands into face masks after a whistle.

Jonas Mouton was physically provoked; he still got suspended.  Gholston had no defense to at least a one-game suspension.

I'm sort of loathe to talk about verbal provocation, when Gholston isn't going to specify what sort of provocation it is that he has claimed.

Second:  I'm not the thread police, and I am not suggesting that this thread be taken down, but the entire suggestion that Lewan used any sort of racial epithet against Gholston is a story that has been so completely lacking in merit (ZERO confirmation of Lewan saying anything like that; ZERO credible reporting on the subject; and a rather CLEAR alternative explanation -- the old name-joke left over from recruiting days) that it really shouldn't be mentioned at all without the sternest rebuttal, given the understandably sensitive nature of racial epithets.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:49 AM
(Reply to #16) #25
Carcajous
Joined: 07/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1896
This is absolutely

This is absolutely spot-on.... on both counts.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
(Reply to #16) #26
Nosce Te Ipsum
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Joined: 03/12/2010
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Ask Profit.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:11 AM
(Reply to #16) #27
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
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Section 1: Please read the OP carefully

First, I edited it so as not to offend yours or others sensibilities. If you wish to speculate, you may now fill in the blanks so that it reads, "You're a pretty, pretty, princess, and you're mother is a happy queen."

Second, I did not speculate on the nature of how Gholston was provoked. I really don't care whether the provocation was verbal or physical.

Third, I did not insinuate or suggest anything about what Lewan did or did not say.

My OP question, first, in general, and second, applied to what happens when Michigan plays MSU next year and Lewan faces Gholston again:  when does trash talking go over the line? Is there a verbal epithet of any kind that is unacceptable, for which a player should be disciplined?

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:01 PM
(Reply to #42) #28
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
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There was an angry, critical tone to my post.

It was in no way aimed at you.  It was aimed at any suggestion, any notion, that Gholston can be excused or forgiven for what got him suspended. 

As I've said before, I'm unconcerned about what's best for Gholston or any other Spartan student-athlete.  I'm not interested in helping them learn, or grow, or become better-people-and-better-football-players.  I just wanted to see Gholston and Rush get suspended, and I just want to see MSU lose the next two games.  I hoped that public pressure could be built for their suspensions, and that supensions might marginally play a role in MSU losses.  There was no way of knowing if it would work; I just thought it worth a try.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:47 AM
#29
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51837
Gholston

was not provoked, unless playing football is "provocation" for the sake of his argument.  He acted like an asshat, his coach acted like a bigger asshat, their AD acted like the biggest asshat, and then he was used by his coaches to make an asshat statement to make them look like slightly smaller asshats.  Gholston was done a disservice by his coaches and AD by not being suspended by the program.  The Spartan difference........

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:47 AM
#30
ClearEyesFullHart
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Joined: 09/09/2011
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I'm mollifying on the Gholston issue

     I myself have probably crossed the line on this posting board, calling Gholston a "penitentiary inmate" and Mark Dantonio "sub-human trash" probably went a little too far.

     But now I've had a chance to see that photo of Gholston smiling on several occasions, and I wonder if we haven't been a little hard on him.  This is a serious question, and while it could be interpreted as a slight, know that my intention is to lessen his culpability.

     Is Gholston operating at an intellectual level where he can be held responsible for his actions?

     

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:51 AM
(Reply to #18) #31
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
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Oooo

I would not take it there.

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October 21st, 2011 at 2:20 PM
(Reply to #20) #32
ClearEyesFullHart
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Joined: 09/09/2011
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I'm also kinda wondering

If that's where Lewan went.

Its sheer speculation, but it is an elegant theory.  If Gholston really is learning disabled, and Lewan was teasing him about it all game...It wouldn't excuse his actions, but it would at least explain them.  It would explain his lack of impulse control.  It would explain the secrecy of MSU's "investigation".  As I remember one of the things MSU got in trouble over under Perles was claiming that "normal" players had learning disabilities.  That wouldn't be something you want to publicize.  It would also explain why the big ten was so lenient in their punishment.  

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October 21st, 2011 at 4:12 PM
(Reply to #57) #33
hart20
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Learning disabled people everywhere

Are offended by this comparison.

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October 21st, 2011 at 6:36 PM
(Reply to #71) #34
ClearEyesFullHart
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Not for nothing

But if it were one of our players I would prefer learning disabled to sociopath.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#35
Nosce Te Ipsum
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Ask Profit.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:22 AM
(Reply to #23) #36
jpepper23
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I think Hoke has changed the

I think Hoke has changed the tide on the rivalry. Hell people in Ohio are starting to believe him. Never in a million years I would have thought that. Selling Michigan jerseys is a good start.

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#37
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#38
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#39
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#40
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#41
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#42
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#43
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#44
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#45
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#46
Nosce Te Ipsum
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October 21st, 2011 at 11:00 AM
(Reply to #33) #47
MichFan1997
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geez man

If you calm down we will ask profit. Gosh

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:00 AM
(Reply to #33) #48
ClearEyesFullHart
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OK ok!

I'll ask profit, stop brow beating me...

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:02 AM
(Reply to #33) #49
OysterMonkey
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I wish I knew who I could ask

I wish I knew who I could ask about this.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:02 AM
(Reply to #33) #50
Section 1
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I'm gonna

ask Profit!

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:07 AM
(Reply to #33) #51
Benoit Balls
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who?

who?

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October 21st, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#52
CompleteLunacy
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Of course there's a line.

Whether Lewan went over it...most likely not. The line about Gholston being provoked...like duh, no shit sherlock, of course you were provoked. Usually everyone who throws a punch like that is provoked in some way. You can't use it as a defense that somehow what Lewan did to you made it slightly more OK to punch him like that.

MSU is absolutely clueless how to handle discipline. But I bet you Dantonio thinks they're the poster child of discipline after they were forced to suspend Gholston.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:06 AM
#53
jblaze
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The only trash talking that hurts is...

the truth.

I'm sure LeGarrette Blount was taunted as well.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:11 AM
#54
bluewave720
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Words never equal provocation

for violence, IMO.  The only exception to this is when the words represent are a serious threat.

"I will now hurt you or your family with the weapon I am currently holding in my hand."  Well, that's provocation for violence and if someone says something like that, they should get neutralized, physically if necessary.  Other than that, you are never off the hook for assaulting someone.  Regardless of how mean they are.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:22 AM
#55
CRISPed in the DIAG
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Regardless of whether you

Regardless of whether you think trash-talking befits Michigan Men, I'm guessing the following methods step over the line (or should):

1) Racially motiivated comments

2) Comments referencing mentally or physically handicapped family members

3) Derogatory gay references (e.g., "you're a fa**ot")

4) Terminal illness comments directed toward family members, coaches, etc.

However, Tom is likely breaking a code by simply acknowledging that he was upset by Lewan's comment(s).  In my estimation trash talk should stay on the field or in the lockerroom.  It isn't discussed with the press.  I rarely hear it publicly acknowledged as much as it probably occurs.

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October 21st, 2011 at 11:43 AM
#56
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
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Like pornography, I think

Like pornography, I think you'll know it when you hear it. Calling a guy a particular name or questioning his manhood or toughness, while dumb on an objective level, is probably safe. But when the speaker cringes even thinking about it, then it clearly is beyond the boundary. Also, when it just sounds dumb and mean-spirited without being that effective as an "inside-your-head"-type insult, that's also a sign. Like with Garnett and his whole Charlie V rant about cancer last year - it wasn't really that bright (shocking, I know, coming from that scholar) and, even if not true, was still more hurtful than effective. Yeah, it pisses off the other guy, but it is also attacking a perception that the man has/had cancer, which is such a personal attack.

With regards to Gholston, the whole "Tom" thing carries with it an unfortunate racial component that, while clearly not the genesis of the taunt, tinges the entire conversation and makes it bigger than it really was. If everyone had called Gholston "Bob", then Lewan's trash talk about have been equally effective and Gholston would have looked like the loose cannon he appears to be. But when you have a white player calling a black player "Tom", it makes the entire situation uncomfortable and gives Gholston an undeserved moral high-ground.

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:15 PM
(Reply to #46) #57
ChiBlueBoy
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I generally agree

In the end, the most effective trash talk is not based on anything that would be over the line (e.g., race, orientation) but is rather something based in intelligence. The best trash talkers are highly intelligent. That's what's most frustrating. Anyone can blow off a racial epithet--it shows the ignorance of the speaker. To receive an insult and not be able to respond shows the ignorance of the listener. That's how you get under someone's skin.

FWIW, the name Tom seems to have been a reference to a very particular episode that both players knew. From what I've heard, I don't think it would have a racial tinge when said--that was added by poorly-sourced reporting later, but I wasn't there, I can't know. It could well be that Lewan never even considered that it could be seen as a racial epithet rather than what it was.

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:16 PM
(Reply to #46) #58
ChiBlueBoy
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I generally agree

In the end, the most effective trash talk is not based on anything that would be over the line (e.g., race, orientation) but is rather something based in intelligence. The best trash talkers are highly intelligent. That's what's most frustrating. Anyone can blow off a racial epithet--it shows the ignorance of the speaker. To receive an insult and not be able to respond shows the ignorance of the listener. That's how you get under someone's skin.

FWIW, the name Tom seems to have been a reference to a very particular episode that both players knew. From what I've heard, I don't think it would have a racial tinge when said--that was added by poorly-sourced reporting later, but I wasn't there, I can't know. It could well be that Lewan never even considered that it could be seen as a racial epithet rather than what it was.

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:12 PM
#59
Red is Blue
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A tragic hero once said

A tragic hero once said something along the lines of "Integrity is what you do when no one else is looking."    

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:34 PM
#60
SuperMarioManingham
Joined: 01/09/2011
MGoPoints: 19
Sticks and stones man, sticks

Sticks and stones man, sticks and stones.

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October 21st, 2011 at 1:26 PM
(Reply to #53) #61
WolvinLA2
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Honestly, this is the most

Honestly, this is the most correct post. No trash talking is over the line. It's a football field. If you don't have thick enough skin to take someone's insults, then get off. The only time insults hurt on a football field is when you're also getting beat physically. If I'm a DE getting trash talked to and I keep blowing past my blocker, I don't care. If he keeps pushing my face into the grass I might care, but it's really not the talk that's pissing me off.

If someone threatens your honor with words, either bark back or defend yourself with your play. If you can't do either, well, then the guy probably won't bother talking much longer anyway.

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October 21st, 2011 at 12:57 PM
#62
hart20
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Racial slurs.

Not cool, man.

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October 21st, 2011 at 1:03 PM
#63
buckley
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Trash talk is over the line

as soon as it starts.  Shut the @!%&*$ up and play ball. Everyone.

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October 21st, 2011 at 2:34 PM
#64
joeyb
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When it leaves your field looking like this

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October 21st, 2011 at 2:41 PM
#65
FrankMurphy
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Probably references to race,

Probably references to race, religion, or sexual orientation. A player who makes a derogatory remark about an opposing player's race, religion, or sexual orientation is likely to have a teammate of that same race, religion, or sexual orientation. 

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October 21st, 2011 at 4:26 PM
(Reply to #65) #66
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
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I agree with you

And on the board, I assume everyone would also agree with you. And in public, I assume the team. I hope on the field of play too.

Unfortunately, people are ugly sometimes. The race and religion and sexual preference slurs of years ago, you would hope no longer happen. But I'm sure they do, unless there is clear disapproval from both teammates and coaches.

The point has been made often that Dantonio is way too lenient about dirty play, on and off the field. My hope is that Michigan players and coaches are NOT lenient of verbal taunting and provocation that crosses the line in the ways you outlined.

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October 21st, 2011 at 4:41 PM
#67
LSAClassOf2000
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Trash Talking: The Line

I would say that denegrating someone's ascribed characteristics would be "crossing the line" (i.e., race, ethnicity, gender, orientation, etc...), not to mention a few prescribed ones which are essentially personal (e.g., religion or politics). They should be discouraged, even disallowed, for the same reasons they are on this board basically. 

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October 21st, 2011 at 5:31 PM
#68
Blue22
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I'd say that

once something gets personal (ie. your mom type deal), it's cause for going "over the line". Trying to say something about someone else's family doesn't end well at almost any time.

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