No special reason to throw this out there right now other than my own curiosity, but I have a question: does anyone know when Michigan-OSU became a true rivalry?
I imagine that there must have been a time when Michigan-OSU was just another game on the schedule. I'm wondering when (and why) it became a Catyclysmic Confrontation Between Good and Evil (which it now undoubtedly is).
Anyone?
Start here.
They've been
Very true...
Also, you may want to check out:
The 100-Year War (http://www.amazon.com/100-Yard-War-100-Year-Old-Michigan-Ohio-Football/dp/047173649X)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_%E2%80%93_Ohio_State_football_rivalry
The Rivalry (HBO special)
If you like free, mgovideo
If you like free, mgovideo has the HBO documentary:
http://mgovideo.com/michigan-vs-ohio-state-the-rivalry
and The Ten Year War DVD:
http://mgovideo.com/downloads.php?page=torrent-details&id=b40124807d8f7a39af2aeb0b0c1fae6271beb99a
That makes for a cute folk
That makes for a cute folk explanation, but in fact, OSU was not always a meaningful game. We first played them in 1897, but it was just another game at that point. Our earliest archrival was Chicago, followed by Minnesota. OSU's first rival was Illinois. There was a stretch of time where the Brown Jug and Illibuck games were at the end of the season.
The OSU series began to gain intensity in the 1920s, when they dedicated their new stadium against us and we followed suit. They seem to have viewed us as an archrival earlier than we returned the favor. In the 1930s, OSU began the custom of giving out gold pants. At that point, we had been much more successful than OSU, and they issued those to deliver a kind of "They put their pants on the same as us" message. In 1935, after Chicago had decided to de-emphasize sports, we agreed to play OSU as the annual season-ending game.
Yeah, ultimately Michigan's
Yeah, ultimately Michigan's rivals have been teams that could compete against them, which was really hard in the early days of college football.
Francis Schmidt, OSU's coach from 1934-1940, may have really started the rivalry by a) beating Michigan four straight times and b) inspiring the gold pants tradition (which I think is pretty cool, all bias aside).
However, the rivalry was probably inevitable simply because Michigan and OSU have been the dominant teams in the Big 10 for decades. Nothing stokes a rivalry like competing head-to-head for titles year in and year out. There have been brief challenges to the status quo, but Minnesota and MSU couldn't keep things going while Michigan and OSU have.
True,
and this is why the Lions (NFL) have no real rivalries. I mean, as Lions fans who do we really hate? No one. Mostly we just feel sorry for ourselves (until recently)...
Harmon40 "When the 'ol season is over, you and I know: it'll be Michigan again...MICHIGAN!"
I mean, as Lions fans who do we really hate?
Millen?
I used to hate the Pack when
I used to hate the Pack when Favre played with them because he always lit us up. I still hate the Bears but I wouldn't call them a rival.
Green Bay
and as an overall Detroit sports fan, I find it easy to hate the major league sports from Chicago..
All right Lemmings. Bring the heat.
The Packers and Vikings, and
The Packers and Vikings, and also the Cowboys because everyone does.
"We've beaten Michigan the last four years. So where's the threat?"
- Mark Dantonio
Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<
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Gotta hate Chicago.
Thinking back to the M-Chicago Rivalry
If you think about the earliest days of the Big Ten - when "The Victors" was written and the Michigan-Chicago rivalry was the biggest deal outside the Ivy League - that was also when Detroit was first becoming the Motor City, and Chicago was the old guard. While those two were also the two best teams in the Big Ten at the time, I've got to think there was a bit of a Detroit-Chicago civic rivalry that helped make the Michigan-Chicago game special.
Not this decade
However, the rivalry was probably inevitable simply because Michigan and OSU have been the dominant teams in the Big 10 for decades.
I have a feeling this is not going to be a very dominant decade for TSIO.
"Close the Gates of Mercy"
OSU's football coach from 1934 to 1940 was Francis "Close the gates of Mercy" Schmidt. His teams beat Michigan by 34, 38, 21, and 21 points his first four years. He definitely had no compunction about running up the score on Michigan or any other school. He lost to Michigan in Tom Harmon's last OSU game, 40-0. Coincidentally, it was also Schmidt's last game.
This
is what I was looking for, thank you very much! The beginning of the gold pants tradition is a good benchmark.
The hiring of Woody certainly must have kicked it up a notch. He was 12-6 against us until Bo took over, and Bo only won 2 of his first 7 games against Woody.
Of course, Bo then became the only Michigan coach to ever beat Woody in consecutive years, closing out Hayes' career on a three game losing streak to Michigan, during which OSU did not score a TD.
Can you imagine that? Woody Hayes's teams did not find the end zone against Michigan a single time in his last three games. Amazing...
Harmon40 "When the 'ol season is over, you and I know: it'll be Michigan again...MICHIGAN!"
Imagine?
Imagine it? I remember it. I was in high school -- and it was glorious. I still have the headline from the Detroit News sports section after Bo beat Woody in 76: "Bo's Wolverines Perfect, 22-0; Goodbye Woody, Hello Pasadena."
I do too!
I was in JR High! Rich Leach was like today's DROB. He was a hero to all us kids! Even though I'm a lot older, DROB is still my hero!
expect the best
Brief History of Big Ten Rivalries, and resulting questions
jmblue - that was an excellent answer, but it piqued my interest, so I've wasted a bit of time doing a bit of research that left me with a few questions.
What I've always wondered is - when we rejoined the Western Conference in 1917, why did Minnesota become our end of season rival until it became Ohio State? While perusing the "all time database" on nationalchamps.net (an amazing resource), it looks like the Big Ten rivalry games for most the 1920s were: Michigan-Minnesota, Chicago-Wisconsin, Iowa-Northwestern, Illinois-Ohio State, and Indiana-Purdue.
It's crazy to me that only one of the rivalries within the conference today that I would call "major" was being played to end the season back then - and that none of the Iowa-Wisconsin-Minnesota triple were playing each other to end the season. Why weren't we paired back up with Chicago? Why were we paired with Minnesota? What was the reasoning behing Iowa-NW and Illinoi-OSU?
I really appreciate the response you've given - it's by far the best answer to the OP's question. But it leaves me with more questions than answers. Like why were the rivalries changed in 1935? And it wasn't yet because Chicago de-emphasized sports - they actually had the first Heisman winner in 1935, and left the Big Ten for football in 1939. From 1935-1939, the season ending rivalries were Michigan-Ohio State, Chicago-Illinois, Minnesota-Wisconsin, and Indiana-Purdue. Iowa and Northwestern seemed to play Nebraska and Notre Dame, respectively, to end the season just as often as each other.
After Chicago dropped football in 1939 (and then big time sports all together after WWII), Iowa, Northwestern, Illinois, and then in 1953 Michigan State all lacked a consistent end of season rivalry game. The 1980s saw Iowa-Minnesota apparently replace Wisconsin-Minnesota, until Penn State joined in 1993 and gave us the recently replaced state of Big Ten rivalries.
It's surprising to me that the most consisten Big Ten season-ending game is Indiana-Purdue - which has been that way since 1908. Other than that, Michigan-Ohio State is the only Big Ten rivalry which has been consistently played to end the season (although Minnesota-Iowa-Wisconsin have done so as a group for a while).
Of course not every rivalry has to be played to end the regular season - Tennessee and Florida call their game "The Third Saturday in October," and the Red River Shootout is one of the sport's premier rivalries and is played in early October. Michigan-MSU and OSU-PSU are two Big Ten ones that come to mind. But it still is good way to see how the Big Ten's rivalries evolved , and leaves me wondering what the reasons were for those early evolutions.
Also
I'm sure it was a big game before the 1950's but the hiring of Woody Hayes took the hatred of Michigan to a whole new level and we fed off of that. Add Bo to the mix and it became epic.
A Møøse once bit my sister. No realli!
Bo vs Woody
Bo vs Woody
Team 106
I think
It was early evening of the Sixth Day.
?
I was about to post that it was early afternoon of the Sixth Day, round about 1:00pm (before TV was able to dictate kick off times).
5 4 3 2 1 Touchdown!
Touchdown Billy Taylor!
Touchdown Billy Taylor!
It has been the last game of the season
for both teams since around 1935, so the roots of the rivalry predate even then.
The hatred on OSU's part
The hatred on OSU's part started in the very early days because it took them 16 tries before they finally beat us. (These days, OSU fans don't count those games as part of the rivalry because, in their own words, it was a long time ago, so they shoudn't count. The John Cooper years apparently don't count either because he never "understood" the rivalry. Basically, any games they lost don't count.)
Apparently, there must have been a time when OSU fans weren't whack jobs because they actually gave Tom Harmon a standing ovation after he destroyed them in 1940. But that might have just been a fluke.
I'm sure we hated them long before Bo vs. Woody but I've never heard of when the hate officially started. You would need a time machine to figure that out.
Go Blue! Always!
If the rumors are true, the
If the rumors are true, the games they won won't count either.
Hatred
They are pissed we got the UP with all the minerals over the Toledo thing. We only hate them cuz they're dumb.
"If fans don't come to the ballpark, you can't stop em."
According to that special on
According to that special on HBO, it started with the battle over the city Toledo.
I don’t know when or
I don’t know when or why it started, but there have sure been PLENTY of good reasons to hate them since.
Agreed.
An old classmate of mine told me that a family member of hers took his 9-yr-old daughter to The Game in Columbus last fall, wearing our colors (first mistake). A group of 8-10 adults surrounded them and taunted the daughter until she was in tears.
The worst part: many OSU fans are actually proud of this kind of behavior.
Not saying our fanbase is perfect, but to date I've never heard a story like that coming out of Ann Arbor.
Harmon40 "When the 'ol season is over, you and I know: it'll be Michigan again...MICHIGAN!"
I went to several games at
I went to several games at OSU as a child and had pretty good experiences. That said, we were on the 50 yardline instead of in the nosebleeds. My experience is that better seats = more beneign fans.
No offense, but stories like
No offense, but stories like these are either lies, or missing the part where "the victims" broughtbshit on themselves. I've been to Columbus 4 times for The Game, and the worst I got is "Michigan sucks", and "you're going down."
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
No offense
But you've just been lucky. I've been down 3 times, had fans push and shove, beer dumped, bottles and rocks thrown at the bus, 7 year old girls flip the bird, 70 year old women moon, a lady in a wheelchair threaten to kick, and got jumped, spit on and a punch thrown just trying to get away from that cesspool with a woman in tow, and had to walk all the way around the otherwise of the parking lot just to get back safely to the bus, avoiding the drunks and assholes. It's no place to take women and children, and is best done with camouflage.
Brian's story of going down there is pretty accurate. They're animals. And if it hasn't happened to you, count your lucky stars, because you're an outlier. There's a reason hardly anyone goes down there anymore; and few that do are making a repeat trip.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
The ILLINI fans have gotten rougher in the last several years.
I never had any problems with OSU fans in general. The OH state police have been known to ticket wolverine fans on I-75 before and after the game! ILLINI fans have gotten the rudest in the past several years. My favorite stadium to see a road game is Kinick field in Iowa City. Their fans are really nice to Michigan fans...may be they remember that Bump built their program, a Michigan man!
expect the best
The Toledo War 1835
The Michigan/Ohio rivalry started truly in 1835 over Toledo when Ohio was a state and Michigan was still a Territory.
Based on the NorthWest Ordinance of 1787 that outlined the protocol for dividing and eventually creating states from the territory East of the Mississippi and North of the Ohio River, Michigan's border should be about 8 miles South of where it is. Ohio, having the power of state hood and congressional representation in the early 1800s, decided that it wanted to annex Toledo and the mouth of the Maumee River in order to build a canal there and reap the rewards. So they just moved the border north into Michigan territory and claimed that stretch of land as its own.
Michigan and Ohio then went to war - really! - though both sides were so incompetent that no one was killed. In fact the only recorded injury was when Two Stickney, not to be confused with his older brother One, stabbed a sheriff in the leg.
In the end, congress gave Ohio Toledo just like the Big Ten sent OSU to the Rose Bowl in 1973 because injustice is Michigan.
Of course, a few years after the war, the railroad business took off and everybody stopped using canals! Ha! Suck it Ohio!
Also, we got the Upper Peninsula from Wisconsin out of the deal (sucks to be you, Wisconsin), which proved immensely more lucrative than Toledo.
So in the end, as always, Ohio's a bunch of jerks and we came out better off anyway.
You can also read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War
nolite te bastardes carborundorum
In-state tuition...
Thanks to the Toledo War, I got undergrad in-state tuition at UM even though I was located 8.5 hours by vehicle from Ann Arbor. All Yooper UM alum are tremendously thankful for the Toledo War. Many of us would otherwise be Badgers.
Basically, I exist because
Basically, I exist because Michigan ended up "losing" the Toledo War. I have one parent from Detroit and one from the U.P., and both went to U-M.
Needless to say, I've got no complaints about losing Toledo.
Ohio never liked our swagg
“That is a total f***ing lie. It is bullsh*t and it is horse sh*t, and people need to be held accountable" -Jim Leyland
You raise an interesting
You raise an interesting point. I was born and raised in Michigan and Graduated from U of M in 1981. I moved around the country a bit in the 80's but work moved me to Cleveland in 1987 and I've been here ever since. My family still resides in Michigan and I have season tickets so I spend a fair amount of time back home.
Here is what I find interesting. I don't know that i've ever encountered even ONE Michigan fan or alumnai that i would classify as "hating" OSU. We don't like them....we don't respect them but we really don't hate them. Here is Ohio, however, it is completely the opposite. They HATE us. They HATE everything about us and view the game as a Holy war to be won at all costs. It's one big reason why I don't think Tressel will get fired (we beats us too often) unless the NCAA mandates it.
Speak for yourself.
I hate the hell out of Ohio St.
Oh how I hate ohio state...
I meant other than you of
I meant other than you of course.
Well
Of course.
Oh how I hate ohio state...
Concur.
Wear OSU colors in Ann Arbor, and you may draw some ugly comments.
Wear UM colors in Columbus, and something truly ugly could happen to you. Not kidding.
Harmon40 "When the 'ol season is over, you and I know: it'll be Michigan again...MICHIGAN!"
I stopped in Columbus during a trip
I stopped in Columbus during a trip and ate at a restaurant with my Michigan t-shirt and M cap and not one person in the restaurant said a thing. I got of lot of stares! One woman came by and gave me a high five since she was a big Michigan fan. She told me I can't believe your dressed up like this in Columbus!
expect the best
Watch
The Rivalry. Every M fan should own it.
Oh how I hate ohio state...
Let me tell you a little
Let me tell you a little story about the worst state ever....
I think one major source of
I think one major source of hate is that there are Michigan fans that live in Ohio, but almost no osu fans that live in Michigan. To top that off, Michigan fans in Ohio aren't afraid to strut their stuff on quote-unquote enemy turf.
Abort, Retry, Fail?
It's a lot like
the Michigan MSU rivalry. It matters much more to them. I remember the Michigan team bus being stopped by the police and searched for bombs after 9-11, ohio resodding their field twice during a season and then again just a few days before the Michigan game and they were wearing different cleats just for that game, Ohio cops stopping Michigan drivers on principal alone even though Michigan cops probably have more reason (we're smuggling illegal fireworks back in instead.) Woody was so pasionate he punched a kid for beating his team, and now the schools administrators and coach have sold thier soul to beat Michigan. They litterally don't care how they do it anymore, the motto is "just win baby." Who knows what their problem is.
How many times have you been on the freeway and had someone fly by you at 100 mph then end up 2 cars ahead of you at the off ramp? What's the point? -Mark Harmon
well stated
This sounds like a raging vent but you are right...and you made me laugh. I've always thought they just have less going on down there than at UM so this is what they focus on. Despite their endless protestations to the contrary OSU is simply not in the same class as UM as a Unversity, so the rivalry takes on greater importance for them. I mean, if they can't compete with us in football what do they have?
The Bentley and the...
...OSU Libraries have a joint project on the history of the rivalry here. It's a great resource.
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe
posted from iPhone
1835. Hated them before but that's a good date to start from
Despite what the other guy calls himself, my name actually is Magnus.
Start here.
They've been pissing Michigan off for 200+ years. The Game is a proxy war.
It's all John Navarre's fault.