It is not a "new NBA trend" to have a multi-star team. I doubt you can name the last NBA champion to not have at least 2 high-level superstars. You'd have to go back to the 70s at the earliest.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
It is not a "new NBA trend" to have a multi-star team. I doubt you can name the last NBA champion to not have at least 2 high-level superstars. You'd have to go back to the 70s at the earliest.
The 2004 Pistons didn't have any " high-level superstars." Ben, Rip and Chauncey were all good players, but not on a superstar level.
including a few years where the pistons had 4 all stars, a dpoy, and 2 other all d-players. thats a *stacked* roster
Great players, good team. Not superstars.
Melo, Bron, Kobe, D-Wade, Pau, Timmah, D-Rose, Amare, Steve Nash, Dwight, etc. are superstars. You'd be hard pressed to make a case that anyone on the Pistons' run was a superstar in that sense of the word.
but they occupied a rung sigificantly above "good players"
but they occupied a rung sigificantly above "good players"
time this has happened since 1979. Historicqlly you don't win without a top50 all-time superstar, and many times you need two of them.
All-Stars mean absolutely nothing. Shawn Marion is a 4x All-Star but he is by no means a superstar.
The all-star game is heavily influenced by team success. There were more deserving players than Rasheed Wallace in 06 and 08 when he was posting 15/7 and 13/7, respectively.
and the All-Defensive team is almost entirely reputation-based.
Not to downplay the talent of our championship core, but they truly were a team that was greater than the sum of its parts. Chauncey and Rip brought out the best in each other, Ben and Rasheed were the perfect complement of man and weakside defense, and Tayshaun was allowed to play tightly on his man knowing that he had WallaceX2 to back him up.
team success is directly resultant from the quality of players.
and as far as sheed is concerned, there are only so many shots to go around
I hate to be a pessimist but it seems the trend for the really high end free agents is signing in NY, Miami, Chicago, Boston and L.A. I don't see the Pistons being able to pull off any huge free agent signings so they'll have to get lucky in the draft.
Chauncey and Rip weren't even all-stars until after 2004. And Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace only had 2 each before 2004 (according to Wikipedia). I would say that none of those players at the time were 'superstars', or even 'star' players. What made that Pistons team great was how they complemented each other, and I was proud of that.
Pretty much the exception. LA the past two go arounds, San Antonio is kinda iffy here--who would their second superstar after Duncan be? IDK if Parker or Ginobli are superstars (not that I don't think they're great players). The Heat had Wade and Shaq, Kobe and Shaq, the Bulls had MJ and Pippen, Pistons were the Bad Boys, no need to explain the Celts/Lakers in the 80s.
over the last 10 years (hasn't even been in the league that long) he's a top five player in the NBA. He was also a top notch wing defender in the years they won the title. Considering his injury issues and the fact he plays 30-32 minutes a game and has played 6th man at times his brilliance has gone largely unnoticed. At the very least he was a top 10 player in the league every year they won a title and Duncan was a top 3 player every one of those years. When you throw a top 30 player (in 05' & 07') in Parker and the best or second best wing defender (Bowen) in the league you can see why they won 3 championships and damn near won 2 more.
I think Dallas is having trouble with Miami because it's hard to match up with 2 top 5 guys and a top 30 guy when you only have 1 top 5 guy and bunch really good role players.
How about the Piston's last championship? It's stretching the definition of 'high-level superstar' pretty far to get anyone on that team into it. Chauncey might have been among the top 20 players in the league at that point.
A less convincing case can be made that Drexler had declined enough that Houston in the late 90s would qualify, having only Hakeem (but great, great role players).
How bout LA? It would be a pretty big reach to call Gasol, Artest or Odom a superstar
When Miami won, Shaq was past his prime, definitely no longer a superstar
Spurs were a great team, but Duncan was the only bona fide superstar on it
Detroit will never get players of Lebron and Wades caliber with free agency, so our best shot is to build a team of solid, solid players at every position, and get very lucky with a trade, which is what happened in 04 when we had a solid team and got Sheed.
I don't think Gasol is too big of a stretch. Artest and Odom for sure. Gasol is on the line for me, with a slight lean towards yes.
I'm sorry but Gasol didn't win a single playoffs series before he was traded to LA. He has never been voted to the All-NBA first team, and was only once on the All-NBA second team.
Wade. LeBron. Dirk. Rose. Dwight Howard. Durant. Kobe. These are superstars
If you go 10 years back, Garnett, Duncan, TMac, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson.
Gasol does not belong on that list. 20 years from now, nobody is going to remember Gasol as a superstar. They'll remember him as Kobe's sidekick to win his second set of championships.
LOL Vince Carter and the second round virgin get superstar status but a 2x NBA champion doesn't? He's not a bonafide superstar like I said, but I'd probably lean towards yes if I had to.
The post below saying they'd put Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph against Pau should go to show how much of a superstar Gasol is...
Gasol is a special case, as he has a skill set that's largely disappeared from the NBA, but that is incredibly valuable. He's currently the best post-up big man in the league. Only the Bulls in their runs, the '04 Pistons, maybe the '08 Celtics (though Garnet was much more willing to play in the post than he is now) and whoever wins this years champion, will have recently won a championship without having one of the league's best post bigs.
Think back through the 90s: the Lakers (Gasol and O'Neal), Heat (O'Neal), Spurs (Duncan, and Duncan and Robinson), and Rockets (Hakeem) all had big men that were dominant in the post. Even the Bulls ran much of their offense through a posted-up Jordan. Postup basketball is valuable because it's a way to get reliable points, especially as defense ramps up during the playoffs. It allows players to get the ball in familiar, comfortable places on the floor. One of the things that makes this series so unusual is it features almost no post play (though Wade has been effective when he goes there).
Gasol was one of the two best post-up players (with a declining Duncan) the past couple years, and that rare skill gave LA an advantage over almost every team they played.
Good post. I'd put Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph up against Pau, though.
Good call on Randolph. He's always been very good in the post and this year he decided that he cared about basketball. I didn't see Jefferson play at all this year that I can recall.
I've always wondered why LeBron hasn't developed any kind of post game. He'd be almost unstoppable with his combination of size, strength, quickness, and passing ability.
I expect LeBron to transition to the PF position much sooner than later, and would put money on him ending his career there. We'll be seeing more of a James/Bosh frontcourt in years to come.
I don't agree. LeBron is built like a PF but his freak athleticism, passing, defensive ability, and just pure talent make him an impossible matchup for other guards and SFs. Putting him in the post against bigger, stronger big men would make no sense. He's a SF who can play PG if he wants to and that's exactly how he'll end his career.
If he plays at PF, in what would be a Bosh-LeBron-Wade-point-shooter lineup, he's going to play on the perimeter, trying to draw big men out and beat them off the dribble. I'm not so sure that will work much better than the Big 3-Haslem-Miller type lineups, as it would seem to create a lot of spacing issues and mean the type of clear out/iso basketball that gets the heat in trouble.
But what would make LeBron even more dominant than he already is would be if he developed a post game (ala late career Jordan, and Magic as Kareem started to decline in the mid-80s) while still playing the 3 (which is what he's basically playing now). Then teams are left with a choice of leaving their 3 on LeBron, and getting beat in the post. Doubling, and getting beat by his passing. Or putting someone bigger on him and getting iso'ed on the perimeter. Given his body type and passing ability, being able to post up is such an advantage that it's shocking he hasn't worked on it seemingly at all.
LeBron isn't abusing wing players in the post, so why would you assume that he'd exclusively plant himself on the low block against bigs?
that's kind of my point. I don't see him doing that. But I assumed that by saying he should play PF, you'd expect him to be more of a post player than he is now. & if that's not the case, then what's the point of moving him to PF? If you're telling me he'd be doing the same things he's doing now then why are you saying he should change positions?
To get an extra guard/wing player on the court, such as Mike Miller or James Jones? To go uptempo, which would be wise with a young, athletic team? To create a mismatch, which happens when LeBron can defend most PFs and most don't have a prayer of slowing him down?
But you can also create a mismatch by putting him at PG in place of the Bibby/Chalmers combo, which is what the Heat did quite a lot down the stretch in the Chicago series. A lineup of LeBron-D Wade-Miller-Bosh-Anthony/Haslem would still create a mismatch (because any PG would have just as difficult a time defending LeBron, if not even more so, than a PF would) without sacrificing size, defense, or (most importantly) rebounding. I think that would be a lot more effective than putting LeBron at the 4 spot and leaving Bibby/Chalmers out there.
Word. Randolph did work this year in the playoffs. His fadeaway was money.
Gonna be tough to sign max players without moving at least one of those guys
I've read that Mike Woodson is a front runner, but I'd really like to see Laimbeer take the reigns. I think he can give this team a kick in the pants it needs. As far as players I think it would be great to see a Monroe and Howard frontcourt, but as an earlier post said, Rip and Villanueava's contracts have our hands tied. Hence, the importance of a strong coach
First, let's not throw the term "superstar" around so liberally.
Secondly, we must realize that Detroit has NEVER been a free agent hot spot. Consider where these mega teams are being formed: Los Angeles, Boston, Miami, New York. These are big markets with better media exposure and/or weather and/or club history than the Detroit Pistons enjoy. When we actually had cap space Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva were the best we could do, and we even had to overpay for Gordon. Hell, after we won a championship we had to overpay Rasheed Wallace to stay, and the only other bidder was Philadelphia for half the price.
Third, Gores does have money, but there is the salary cap and luxury tax to worry about. If he wanted to lose money in order to build a winning product, then sure, we could sign and trade Tayshaun, extend Stuckey to market value, and use the MLE, but I bet only one of those happens. In fact, we haven't used the MLE in a few seasons, which is one of the only outlets a team over the cap has to improve the team.
Our best chances at obtaining a superstar is via the draft or compiling enough talent to produce a competitive package the next time a big name demands a trade.
Well, TBF to the Knicks they got Amare and a FA, they're looking at Williams/Paul in a year, and Melo was gonna head there as an FA before Denver decided to get something for him.
My bad, I might have not been clear. I was talking more about NYC being a free agent hot spot.
Once Boston became relevant, however, free agents flocked to the place. The same thing happened with Los Angeles, is happening with Miami, and will happen with NY. The location helps, as other conference finalists and semi-finalists (i.e. "contenders") didn't enjoy the same luxury.
Miami is going to get even worse if the MLE is kept in the new CBA. They'll get a Mike Miller level player-or better-every off-season.
Every waived vet strongly considers going to Boston, and free agents sign for less than market value to play there. Many of these players could have been the missing piece for, say, the Utah Jazz, but that's not even an option.
And actually, just a few years ago, there were a lot of stories in the media suggesting that Boston wasn't an attractive city for NBA players. Boston has historically had a bad reputation in the black community. Before they acquired Garnett, the Celtics hadn't won anything since their last white superstar (Bird) retired.
Hoping to build a team like Boston did is a fruitless fantasy. Boston was basically handed "The Big 3" + Rondo through a perfect storm of events.
1. They already had PP.
2. The Sonics were purchased by an owner who was going to move the team and wanted to divorce the franchise of all vestiges of Seattle. Thus, the Celtics got Ray Allen on the cheap.
3. Kevin Garnett was a gift given to the Celtics via Kevin McHale a la Jerry West giving Pau Gasol to the Lakers. McHale knew his days as GM were numbered, and KG wanted out(he had maintained that he would refuse to play for the Celtics and then ultimately caved). At that point, even T-Wolves fans felt bad for KG being stuck in Minny, so the Celtics got one the greatest players of the last 20 years for peanuts.
4. IIRC, they got Rondo because of the Sarver led Suns selling off draft picks due to a mountain of horrible decisions leading them to be well over the luxury tax. Also the fact that a ton of teams passed on him.
There is no way that the Pistons can replicate the fortune Boston stumbled onto.
Personally, I think either Rip, Prince, Gordon, or Charlie V need to go. One or two of those guys at least. I think they are overpaid plain and simple. It would be amazing to see even one of Howard or CP to come to Detroit, but I don't see it happening. Gores is going to have to be more creative than that. Some type of big trade needs to take place. I'd be in full support of them pairing draft picks with a few of those guys I mentioned to get some young high-caliber talent. It was just tough to watch this team play last year, and I hope Dumars and Gores can put together some type of game-changing trade to at the very least mix up the team.
Prince is an UFA this year and won't be back. Hopefully, they can find someone to take Rip. Attempt to draft well and hopefully they can get one of the free agent "superstars." That is a lot of "hopefullys."
Hire Mike Woodson. If you can turn around the Atlanta Hawks you can turn around the Detroit Pistons. Terry Foster seems to think the Pistons should hire Isiah Thomas, which, uh, only if you want the Pistons turned to shit like everything else he touches. With apologies to Mark Cuban, I wouldn't hire Isiah to manage a Dairy Queen. Or a lemonade stand.
Not really sure what the point of this thread is. Seems to be "Wouldn't it be sweet if our team got the two best upcoming free agents?" Couldn't you literally just say this about any sports and any team. I fail to see why the Pistons would be contenders for Howard or Paul any more than any other team with salary cap space (and less so that teams like NYC where Paul's two closest friends in the NBA already play).
So to answer your question, yes, getting superstars would be sweet. Novel concept.
This is OT
Follow the Sam Presti model.
How long are you willing to be a lottery team for?
would you rather suffer for 3-5 years collecting talent and assets or just spin your wheels getting seeds 5-8 and occansionally upsetting a team and making it to the second round?
I agree, it's just newspapers and fans can get very impatient, as can owners. Many in business think short term when the best interests of the business often lie in long term planning.
It's still a preference thing though. Many fans want a team that is competitive and think they are just one trade away from being elite.
I think it's more difficult to dig a team out of a culture of losing than one of mediocrity.
Stand by while someone takes Greg Oden No. 1, leaving you with Kevin Durant?
I know . . . he drafted Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, et al. He's a fine GM. But he also got insanely lucky.
How good would Presti look if Portland had taken Durant and Seattle/OKC had been left with Oden?
Chicago got the number 1 pick (1 percent chance) when they were the 10th best team and picked up rose. San Antonio got Duncan, Detroit got Rasheed for nothing, LA stole Gasol because their GM panicked, Ainge took a chance on 32 year old SG with shot ankles and a max contract for the off chance that it would convice KG to come to Boston (on the off chance Minn would even trade him). I could go on and on but great owners and GM's make their own luck sometimes and they make shrewd decisions to take advantage of their good fortune.
As long as Sparticus Gore's plans do NOT include Isaiah Thomas, I don't really care what he does.
Isaiah = DOOM.
Sell everybody and anything you can for future draft picks.
Burn it to the ground, and then rebuild brick by brick (no pun intended).
Monroe and Stuckey are the only real nice young pieces. Ben Gordon can flat out score and should be preferred to Rip at this point. Big Ben is in twilight. No way Tayshaun comes back. Charlie V is marginal.
I'm with the guy that suggests blowing it up and rebuilding. Get the right guy in this years draft and go from there. No way Dwight Howard or Chris Paul come to Detroit.
It is pure fantasy that the Pistons can acquire multiple superstars... Detroit is not, nor will be forever more, a destination city...
about a new owner with money and what he could possibly do to make the Pistons relevant again and lift up a down and out city.
Yes, Detroit is not a big free agent draw, but we can dream and money does talk to these guys.
The last Piston championship was a true "team" effort, but look at what is happening in the league. Boston started it with the "3 amigos" thing and what happened - championship. Miami is about to do the same thing. NY is building toward that same goal with Amari, Mello and Paul possibly. LA may have Howard and Bynum, etc. A good team effort might put up a good fight, but it's not going to win a championship in the next 5 -10 years. Thankfully Boston is getting old, so they'll probably drop out of the picture, but the haves and have nots is coming to this league.
If we sit back and dream of a team effort, which I'm normally all for, it's just not going to happen in the near future. Just giving up on trying to get these guys because we are not the best area is lame and wussing out. Go for it. Why not. Let's see what kind of sales pitch the new management can put up.
At least for the foreseeable future, we need super stars to win. That may change again, but for now it's what we need.
Your fears are realized.
The rest of this post is valid (although I disagree with tanking), except for Steve Nash being an even better example of a late bloomer.
This is my biggest fear too. Fact of the matter is, Joe D got extremely lucky over a number of years to build that team. He took a number of caluculated risks on guys no one could have known would turn from also-rans to all-stars (Chauncey, and Big Ben). 21st(?) overall picks hardly ever turn into players of Tayshaun's caliber, and then hoping Sheed wouldn't completely implode team chemistry.
He has since taken risks on similar players (Ben Gordon, and Charlie V) that haven't really panned out. Couple that with a few draft busts, acquiring a number of guys who do virtually the same thing, bad coaching hires, and you have a recipe for what we're seeing right now.
field a team of solid, good players that learn to play well together and play tough defense and set your sights to the few years in the future between when the current superstars go into decline and the next generation of superstars can step up. you will have a cohesive veteran laden, tough team and then add pieces as needed to get to an elite level during these few years and hope things work out.
but you don't become elite by adding pieces as needed. You become elite by drafting a superstar, trading for a superstar, or having cap room and being in a destination city.
What you just described is what Indiana and Charlotte have done the past 5-7 years and they still don't have any all-stars to build a team around.
so you are putting more stock into the city of detroit becoming a destination city than being smart and adding pieces?
what i am trying to say is that detroit's success in the past has been made as much by what state the rest of the league is in than their own superstar abilities. the bad boys era was as much about being at the end of magic/bird and prior to jordan as it was about thomas and laimbeer. same can be said for the billups era bad boys who got theirs after the shaq/kobe era in la, but before the current crop of superstart laden teams that has ruled for the past few years. (i don't really know how to quantify is SA is superstar or not).
i thought what i was describing was a good team adding a rasheed wallace or mark aguirre? of course, there are a million examples of this not working very well and they are usually named vince carter, but you get the point i am trying to make.
is that picture you?
First off, Detroit is not a destination city, I think we alll know that. I'm saying that just adding pieces to no super star has only worked once in the modern era (Detroit 04 & 05). That's the exception. The Bad Boys had two superstars in Isiah and Joe and great role players/secondary stars around them. My point is that once you get the superstars that's when the shrew adding of pieces comes into the equation, it doesn't usually work the other way around. You usually have to be bad to either draft a superstar or trade a draft pick/picks to trade for one.
I think the recent era Pistons has clouded or view of how to build a team. This is especially for Joe Dumars right now. The funny think is that Gordon and Villanueva for never Dumars/Detroit kind of guys. They had always been known as me first scorers who played horrible defense. I don't know what he was trying to do.
Not a picture of me but if I'm reincarnated I might want to come back as him.
pistons success 20 years apart does not equal a repeatable pattern for future success
also agree - i don't know what dumars was or is trying to do
the problem with being terrible and trying to get your draft pick superstar is that, in today's nba, you get that player for 5-6 years and wave goodbye. so you have a 19 year old, suffer through a few awkward years, maybe make a championship run and that is IF your superstar pans out.
The Pistons need to start with a coach, Woodson probably the best bet.
Next, work out a sign and trade with Prince. This will be somewhat tricky because it would have to be a team that both Tay wants to go to (otherwise he would just sign with them outright) and a team with something to give. Dallas seems to be a popular choice to make a run at him. They have a ton of salary coming off the books. I wouldn't mind Haywood next to Monroe, or Butler or Marion. Any of them would be better than losing Prince for nothing.
Deal Rip. He and Gordon simply cannot co-exist. Rip is the one to go. Again the problem of where to....I would like to seem the team try to work out a deal that brings Kaman to Detroit.
It's not crazy to imagine a team next year with Stuckey, Gordon, Butler, Monroe, and Kaman with Jerebko back coming off the bench along with Charlie V, Daye, Terrico White, Bynum, Maxiell, and our draft pick(s). That can be respectable with the right coach.
Finally - if there is a finally, Maxiell seems stagnant and if we can add another role player to him to get a better fit and a 1st round pick next year, I would do it. Next year's draft will be very good.
As for the draft, I wouldn't necessarily go with a big foreign prospect (obviously not a need if Kaman can come to Detroit). I think a proven player to fit a need would be better. I actually think Morris would be nice. A passing PG with size would be a nice fit next to Gordon, and if his prescence can do for Monroe what it did for Morgan offensively, it would be excellent.
Tayshaun to LAC makes much more sense than Rip. They have invested in Eric Gordon and Randy Foye at the SG position.
Maybe I misread your post, but there is no way anyone is giving the Pistons a 1st round pick for Jason Maxiell. Especially with the awful contract he has.
I actually know Tom Gores (he is a sharp businessman especially in acquiring distressed assets) and what I can tell you is that he will make quick, thoughtful decisions and won't shed too many tears doing it. He wants to build a good Piston product - not one that necessarily wins championships, but that is at least competitive (he did say, as an aside, he is betting that if the next CBA in the NBA is anything like the previous NFL contracts it might bring back parity in the league which would give the Pistons a real chance). I don't have any insight into professional moves but my supposition is that he will give Joe Dumars a long leash to course correct his mistakes without putting in significant cash to do it. He will also urge the removal of unnecessary contracts for cheaper prices because they help cash flow long term (ie. giving Rip away for nothing may hurt now but is valuable from the standpoint of available cash long term - that is just how Tom thinks so I don't think basketball will be any different).
My suspicion on moves are so:
1) Sign and Trade for Tayshaun - the hope is to get either an above average guard or a rim protecting center in exchange
2) Trade Hamilton for not much other than to be rid of the contract ( a draft pick or pick plus bench player will go in the deal)
3) Acquire a good point guard or rim protecting center
Stuckey, Maxiell and Charlie V are the sticky ones (Maxiell most of all). He has not played to his contract and of all the contracts signed maybe the worst. However both his and Hamiltons contracts are coming off the books soon so some team might want to take those contracts in return for something equaling NPV.
Also the asset that is going to allow him to be patient rebuilding the team are the entertainment properties. He basically told me, "I'm getting all the entertainment properties for cents on the dollar and all people care about is the basketball team. That is actually really fascinating".
I don't know if that is good or bad but I suspect the profits from the entertainment properties will make this a good investment independent of the piston outcome. I also think that it will allow the Piston planning some amount of time to succeed as there is no immediate cash flow crunch to the ownership team.
It definitely helps that the Pistons own the Palace. That arena has been an absolute cash cow.
I don't know the salary situation and admittedly I haven't been able to watch them much lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing Stuckey go. Never thought he was all that great. Really talented but just never got the offense to flow like Chauncey could back in the day.
trade Charlie Villanueva. For anything.
decent amount of bigs, so to speak, but the Tayshaun question is the biggest in IMO. They'll stay with Stuckey as a combo guard, Jerebko and Daye will play but do they still start? Daye has been a PF-SF-SG but where will he land? Greg Monroe has locked down a starting spot and can play either PF or C depending on who else we pull. We could trade or sign anyone and our young players can shuffle to accommodate. Ben Gordon averages over 20ppg when he starts more than every other day with starters who aren't constantly changing places. I can really see Detroit wanting Odom but I don't see Odom ever EVER leaving a warm climate. My guess is they poach a team like Sacramento or Golden State or the Twolves or trade with Portland. Maybe Iguodala would move in a big enough trade. I personally love the idea of Al Jefferson or Gerald Wallace or Tony Allen or go after some of San Antonios role players like Matt Bonner. His 3 is way better than Charlie V's. I say we resign Tayshaun and trade him and Ben Gordon for Iguodala and see if we cant trade Charlie V and somthing else for Bargnani at PF or maybe make a move for Andrew Bogut before he walks away from Milwaukee. Stuckey-Iguodala-Daye-and Bargnani-Monroe or Monroe-Bogut looks pretty good with a deep enough bench.
My one part plan entails you fucking off.
2 years against Joe D. He was blowing up the salary cap to make room for the big FA extravaganza but then Bill Davidson died and he had no money to work with. The wife spent more than a year trying to pass the team off for more than it was worth and all the good signing and trading went on without us.
the Pistons are one of the lower salary teams in the NBA. If you eliminate Rips contract alone with a pending deal (or in a pending deal) they are 3rd in lowest in all NBA salaries. Expensive contracts is also a weak excuse, they really aren't that expensive. The team eliminated Chaunceys contract by picking up AI specifically to make room at the top. Take a lotto team and add, say, Deron Williams, and Gerald Wallace, and David Lee then you do contend. Dumars had to hold onto his current players. and his draft picks, and his coach, and sign guys once Davidson died. He managed to do that, get Greg Monroe, and sign Tmac for a veterans minimum. What would you have done different? It's easy to say "get rid of this guy, and that guy, and those guys" but after Davidson died you can't get anyone. You can't bargain from a solid position when the owners widow is pawning the team off. You can't even go out and hire a new coach. You certainly can't move assets and change the value of a team that's for sale.
9 months. Extending Rip by 3 years, horrible. Signing Gordon, awful. Signing Charlie V, even worse. Maxiel extension, really bad. Not trading Stuckey when many GM's thought he was a future allstar(overvalued asset), bad talent evaluation. Giving Kwame 5 million a year, stupid. Giving Wilcox more than the minimum, not that bad but still bad. Trading an all-star in Chauncey and getting nothing of value in return in order to have 20 million in cap space to spend on Charlie V and Ben Gordon? One of the worst moves of the last 10 years.
The only good moves have been drafting Jerebeko and drafting Greg Monroe. Monroe fell to them due to bad decisions by other GM's. Also, there were no other reasonable big men left at that point to be drafted at number 8. Good move to take the best talent available but nothing great.
Also, firing 3 coaches 4 years is a huge black mark and to me shows a lack of leadership.
Also, failing to trade Prince for a contract of similar size plus a draft pick made no sense. As long as the contract expired this summer (eg, Caron Butler) and was of similar size it would have added nothing to the books and in the case of Butler would have saved them money since his contract was covered by insurance.
In short, starting in 2005 Joe D has been bad, very bad.
I agree RE: the oft-rumored Caron Butler trade. It'd have been a win-win for all parties. Tayshaun would have gone to a contender and challenged for a ring, we would have cut some immediate salary and gained a draft pick.
The big FA extravaganza was 2010. He had cap space in 2009. He was never going to go after Wade/LeBron/Bosh/Boozer/Stoudemire/etc.
Joe didn't have the most money to work with even when Davidson was alive. Remember trading Corliss Williamson away just to avoid the luxury tax? How about how the Pistons have never purchased a draft pick, even when players they were targeting have fallen?
His draft decisions haven't been awful. They've actually been great with the exception of Mateen, Darko, and Rodney White. He's let go of some pretty good draft picks, namely Afflalo, Okur, and Amir Johnson.
I think we can all agree he is a douchebag. Not a coincidence that everyone who has disagreed with him has been negged. There's been some great debate so far and you, Mat, and the BradyHoke guy seem to be the most informed and backing up their crap. I enjoy the banter and I'm an obsesive NBA fan and consume lots of basketball info so I enjoy these debates.
you're dead on here. However, I have no idea what that other guy who replied to you was talking about.
a) Austin Daye showed zero statistical improvement from his rookie to sophomore seasons.
We knew he'd be a project when we drafted him, but he hasn't been encouraging. He needs to improve both tangibly and intangibly to be a starter on a good team, and I fear handing him anything.
b) Ben Gordon has been horribly mismanaged. He's averaging the fewest shots and free throw attempts for his career and given the second fewest minutes. He should be the #1 or 2 option at all times when on the floor.
c) Villanueva is actually performing in line with his career averages, when adjusted for minutes. The difference is he is rebounding less and shooting more three pointers. Acquire a coach that doesn't let him Sheed out on us, and he'll be worth his contract.
d) I want people to understand that Rip's game hasn't declined AT ALL. He has an ageless skillset and is one of the best conditioned athletes in the game. If he's underperforming, it's probably due to the scheme.
I've acknowledged the low-if not negative-trade values of those players many times on this board. All of Hamilton, Gordon, VIllanueva, and Maxiell put up career low or bottom two seasons in minutes played last season. Of course they couldn't perform well enough to justify those millions.
I have no idea what Joe was thinking when he signed Gordon after extending Hamilton. Perhaps he envisioned BG playing some minutes at PG and Hamilton some at SF. Either way, none of our bad contracts have been given the opportunity to warrant the money we pay them, especially when Rip fell out of the rotation entirely for a stretch, Maxiell got DNP-CDs for 25 games, Gordon has the red light to shoot, and Daye got a shot to start at PF before Villanueva did.
Their production, our team success, and the generosity of their contracts have all been affected by their usage and our scheme. We would have won more games, our players would be happier, and Joe's seat wouldn't be so warm if our best players were consistently on the floor.
and draft Wade or Melo
As a Pistons fan: Bill Laimbeer.
As a Michigan fan: Tom Izzo.
This is what a new owner can do with money and vision under the current Collective Bargaining Agreement. I’ll outline where money can help and where it can’t.
All in all this probably costs about 10-20 million more a year than your average to bad owners are willing to spend but will pay huge dividends in the long run. What owners can’t do under the current CBA is just outspend their peers; this isn’t baseball. Dallas has done all of these things last 12 years and they haven’t had and under 50-win season since. If you think that’s all Dirk then you’ve forgotten how many sub 50-win seasons teams headlined by LBJ, Kobe, Dwade, Chris Paul, and KG have had in that same time span. Hopefully your owner is a bit more humble than Cuban but he is a great example to follow as far as where to spend money.
If you're waiting for Detroit to sign a few "superstar" free agents, you're going to be waiting for an awfully long time.
IMO, you start simple.
The rumored Rip and the Pistons 8th overall pick to Cleveland so Cleveland can buy-out Rip's contract would be fantastic.
Then it gets more complicated.
The next step would be for Gores to fight like hell to make sure that the rumored contract exemption rule is a part of the new CBA. If I have understood the proposed rule correctly, it would make it so each team could eliminate one player's salary from their cap per year (you would still have to pay the player, it's just their salary won't be counted against you).
The obvious move then would be to choose Ben Gordon's contract for exemption, thus freeing up $13 million(?) from the salary cap. You then sit on that money, don't spend it on free agents, and try to build through the draft by trading expiring contracts for future draft picks.
This would take a number of years, but unless you happen to win the draft lottery, and there happens to be a Lebron James/Derrick Rose caliber of player in the draft pool, then this is way to go.
The worst thing the Pistons could possibly do, is what they've been doing. You need to be one of the 2-3 worst teams in order to build back up. If you're consistently picking 4-10 in the NBA draft, chances are you're going to toil in mediocrity.
the Pistons should hire:
Mike Woodson or Lawrence Frank. Both have HC experience and have coached from a dismal team to a playoff contender within years.
Trade Rip Hamilton since his contract is essentially an expiring contract with the lockout looming next season(technically he has 2 more years left but with lockout, it's almost a year contract).
Resign Jonas Jerebko and Chris Wilcox(Wilcox as a depth player)
Draft Bismack Biyombo at #8. He's a young kid with huge upside. Freakishly athletic with NBA body(6'9" 240 lbs with 7'7" wingspan). Outstanding defender who can block shots. Excellent rebounder. At worst, he'll be a great interior defender. He's very raw with room to grow into a dominant low post scorer. Once he figures out the game, sky is the limit. He may end up being the best player in the draft when all is said and done.
Release due to expiring contracts:
#8 draft pick
Ben Wallace retirement
That leaves with the roster of:
That leave 3 slots to fill. One of them is certainly going to be filled via 1st round pick unless it's traded for players. The Pistons will probably committed about 38-40 millions to the roster(35,613,032 are already committed to players on the roster if Hamilton is traded). The salary cap is projected to be about 60 million. That's nearly 20 million of cap space. Even if the Pistons have players in return from the draft picks and Rip Hamilton, they will have about 8-9 million of cap space.
Clear up cap space and build a super-team like Miami did.
First off, Steve Nash and Pau Gasol are not superstars.
Second, we need hire to Bill Laimbeer. Im sick of the Pistons hiring their own reject assistant coaches (see Michael Curry, John Kuester, and Mike Woodson would be the third)
Third, If Derrick Williams, Brandon Knight, Enes Kanter, Tristian Thompson, or Kyrie Irving, we should just go home. Darko has scarred me on International players for life.
Lastly, we need to simply cut Rip or try to package him in a deal for Al Jefferson. Utah has 4 all-star caliber bigs, somebody has to go. If Joe can't pull that off, I say we tank the season to draft Harrison Barnes. That's the superstar we need.
Enes Kanter is Turkish, aka international. As a matter of fact, Tristan Thompson is Canadian.
I just made them scary, didn't I?
There are a lot of successful international players playing in the NBA. There's Steve Nash(duh), Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Yao Ming(before the injuries), and to name a few. To say that you don't want an international player means that you're going to pass up a potential superstar for a possible medicore player. One failure shouldn't deter you from not taking international player. If that player is a good player, you take that player instead of reaching for a medicore player. It's funny that you mentioned Kanter and Thompson because both are international player. Shows how much you know about NBA draft.
I don't want Al Jefferson because he carries a big contract and does not fit in with Greg Monroe. He's a terrible defender. Pistons need a tough interior defender who can bang with the bigs.
I don't know how you define "superstar," but Pau and Nash are both too twenty players in the league. Pau in particular is a rare talent, who plays great defense, has great post moves, and shoots 85%ish from the line.
Maybe a young up and coming attorney from Los Angeles thats worked for him before who can be a middle man between Tom and Joe...
Tommy you got my number!
Tell Dumars to not be afraid to (continue) to play in front of mostly empty arenas, so they can truly suck, and not just be bad, and get a top draft pick enough years that they can get the next Derrick Rose. Because unless you get a superstar through the draft, you're not going to attract other free agents. But there's been a mentality that you have to win as many games as you can for ego/selling tickets/making money, rather than be in position to make your team good enough to win a title, which is what really matters. Last year they end up with a top three pick but for a mini-win streak at the end of the season, including beating a T-Wolves team in a meaningless last game...then watching the two teams in the lottery in front of them jump up.
But this thread has depressed me and made me think it was hopeless. So I'm going to say he can at least afford an Auomotion for every seat-
(And this is ON-topic)