I think it's more difficult to dig a team out of a culture of losing than one of mediocrity.
there would have to be some to wash away
I think it's more difficult to dig a team out of a culture of losing than one of mediocrity.
Stand by while someone takes Greg Oden No. 1, leaving you with Kevin Durant?
I know . . . he drafted Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, et al. He's a fine GM. But he also got insanely lucky.
How good would Presti look if Portland had taken Durant and Seattle/OKC had been left with Oden?
Chicago got the number 1 pick (1 percent chance) when they were the 10th best team and picked up rose. San Antonio got Duncan, Detroit got Rasheed for nothing, LA stole Gasol because their GM panicked, Ainge took a chance on 32 year old SG with shot ankles and a max contract for the off chance that it would convice KG to come to Boston (on the off chance Minn would even trade him). I could go on and on but great owners and GM's make their own luck sometimes and they make shrewd decisions to take advantage of their good fortune.
As long as Sparticus Gore's plans do NOT include Isaiah Thomas, I don't really care what he does.
Isaiah = DOOM.
Sell everybody and anything you can for future draft picks.
Burn it to the ground, and then rebuild brick by brick (no pun intended).
Monroe and Stuckey are the only real nice young pieces. Ben Gordon can flat out score and should be preferred to Rip at this point. Big Ben is in twilight. No way Tayshaun comes back. Charlie V is marginal.
I'm with the guy that suggests blowing it up and rebuilding. Get the right guy in this years draft and go from there. No way Dwight Howard or Chris Paul come to Detroit.
It is pure fantasy that the Pistons can acquire multiple superstars... Detroit is not, nor will be forever more, a destination city...
about a new owner with money and what he could possibly do to make the Pistons relevant again and lift up a down and out city.
Yes, Detroit is not a big free agent draw, but we can dream and money does talk to these guys.
The last Piston championship was a true "team" effort, but look at what is happening in the league. Boston started it with the "3 amigos" thing and what happened - championship. Miami is about to do the same thing. NY is building toward that same goal with Amari, Mello and Paul possibly. LA may have Howard and Bynum, etc. A good team effort might put up a good fight, but it's not going to win a championship in the next 5 -10 years. Thankfully Boston is getting old, so they'll probably drop out of the picture, but the haves and have nots is coming to this league.
If we sit back and dream of a team effort, which I'm normally all for, it's just not going to happen in the near future. Just giving up on trying to get these guys because we are not the best area is lame and wussing out. Go for it. Why not. Let's see what kind of sales pitch the new management can put up.
At least for the foreseeable future, we need super stars to win. That may change again, but for now it's what we need.
Your fears are realized.
The rest of this post is valid (although I disagree with tanking), except for Steve Nash being an even better example of a late bloomer.
This is my biggest fear too. Fact of the matter is, Joe D got extremely lucky over a number of years to build that team. He took a number of caluculated risks on guys no one could have known would turn from also-rans to all-stars (Chauncey, and Big Ben). 21st(?) overall picks hardly ever turn into players of Tayshaun's caliber, and then hoping Sheed wouldn't completely implode team chemistry.
He has since taken risks on similar players (Ben Gordon, and Charlie V) that haven't really panned out. Couple that with a few draft busts, acquiring a number of guys who do virtually the same thing, bad coaching hires, and you have a recipe for what we're seeing right now.
field a team of solid, good players that learn to play well together and play tough defense and set your sights to the few years in the future between when the current superstars go into decline and the next generation of superstars can step up. you will have a cohesive veteran laden, tough team and then add pieces as needed to get to an elite level during these few years and hope things work out.
but you don't become elite by adding pieces as needed. You become elite by drafting a superstar, trading for a superstar, or having cap room and being in a destination city.
What you just described is what Indiana and Charlotte have done the past 5-7 years and they still don't have any all-stars to build a team around.
so you are putting more stock into the city of detroit becoming a destination city than being smart and adding pieces?
what i am trying to say is that detroit's success in the past has been made as much by what state the rest of the league is in than their own superstar abilities. the bad boys era was as much about being at the end of magic/bird and prior to jordan as it was about thomas and laimbeer. same can be said for the billups era bad boys who got theirs after the shaq/kobe era in la, but before the current crop of superstart laden teams that has ruled for the past few years. (i don't really know how to quantify is SA is superstar or not).
i thought what i was describing was a good team adding a rasheed wallace or mark aguirre? of course, there are a million examples of this not working very well and they are usually named vince carter, but you get the point i am trying to make.
is that picture you?
First off, Detroit is not a destination city, I think we alll know that. I'm saying that just adding pieces to no super star has only worked once in the modern era (Detroit 04 & 05). That's the exception. The Bad Boys had two superstars in Isiah and Joe and great role players/secondary stars around them. My point is that once you get the superstars that's when the shrew adding of pieces comes into the equation, it doesn't usually work the other way around. You usually have to be bad to either draft a superstar or trade a draft pick/picks to trade for one.
I think the recent era Pistons has clouded or view of how to build a team. This is especially for Joe Dumars right now. The funny think is that Gordon and Villanueva for never Dumars/Detroit kind of guys. They had always been known as me first scorers who played horrible defense. I don't know what he was trying to do.
Not a picture of me but if I'm reincarnated I might want to come back as him.
pistons success 20 years apart does not equal a repeatable pattern for future success
also agree - i don't know what dumars was or is trying to do
the problem with being terrible and trying to get your draft pick superstar is that, in today's nba, you get that player for 5-6 years and wave goodbye. so you have a 19 year old, suffer through a few awkward years, maybe make a championship run and that is IF your superstar pans out.
The Pistons need to start with a coach, Woodson probably the best bet.
Next, work out a sign and trade with Prince. This will be somewhat tricky because it would have to be a team that both Tay wants to go to (otherwise he would just sign with them outright) and a team with something to give. Dallas seems to be a popular choice to make a run at him. They have a ton of salary coming off the books. I wouldn't mind Haywood next to Monroe, or Butler or Marion. Any of them would be better than losing Prince for nothing.
Deal Rip. He and Gordon simply cannot co-exist. Rip is the one to go. Again the problem of where to....I would like to seem the team try to work out a deal that brings Kaman to Detroit.
It's not crazy to imagine a team next year with Stuckey, Gordon, Butler, Monroe, and Kaman with Jerebko back coming off the bench along with Charlie V, Daye, Terrico White, Bynum, Maxiell, and our draft pick(s). That can be respectable with the right coach.
Finally - if there is a finally, Maxiell seems stagnant and if we can add another role player to him to get a better fit and a 1st round pick next year, I would do it. Next year's draft will be very good.
As for the draft, I wouldn't necessarily go with a big foreign prospect (obviously not a need if Kaman can come to Detroit). I think a proven player to fit a need would be better. I actually think Morris would be nice. A passing PG with size would be a nice fit next to Gordon, and if his prescence can do for Monroe what it did for Morgan offensively, it would be excellent.
Tayshaun to LAC makes much more sense than Rip. They have invested in Eric Gordon and Randy Foye at the SG position.
Maybe I misread your post, but there is no way anyone is giving the Pistons a 1st round pick for Jason Maxiell. Especially with the awful contract he has.
I actually know Tom Gores (he is a sharp businessman especially in acquiring distressed assets) and what I can tell you is that he will make quick, thoughtful decisions and won't shed too many tears doing it. He wants to build a good Piston product - not one that necessarily wins championships, but that is at least competitive (he did say, as an aside, he is betting that if the next CBA in the NBA is anything like the previous NFL contracts it might bring back parity in the league which would give the Pistons a real chance). I don't have any insight into professional moves but my supposition is that he will give Joe Dumars a long leash to course correct his mistakes without putting in significant cash to do it. He will also urge the removal of unnecessary contracts for cheaper prices because they help cash flow long term (ie. giving Rip away for nothing may hurt now but is valuable from the standpoint of available cash long term - that is just how Tom thinks so I don't think basketball will be any different).
My suspicion on moves are so:
1) Sign and Trade for Tayshaun - the hope is to get either an above average guard or a rim protecting center in exchange
2) Trade Hamilton for not much other than to be rid of the contract ( a draft pick or pick plus bench player will go in the deal)
3) Acquire a good point guard or rim protecting center
Stuckey, Maxiell and Charlie V are the sticky ones (Maxiell most of all). He has not played to his contract and of all the contracts signed maybe the worst. However both his and Hamiltons contracts are coming off the books soon so some team might want to take those contracts in return for something equaling NPV.
Also the asset that is going to allow him to be patient rebuilding the team are the entertainment properties. He basically told me, "I'm getting all the entertainment properties for cents on the dollar and all people care about is the basketball team. That is actually really fascinating".
I don't know if that is good or bad but I suspect the profits from the entertainment properties will make this a good investment independent of the piston outcome. I also think that it will allow the Piston planning some amount of time to succeed as there is no immediate cash flow crunch to the ownership team.
It definitely helps that the Pistons own the Palace. That arena has been an absolute cash cow.
I don't know the salary situation and admittedly I haven't been able to watch them much lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing Stuckey go. Never thought he was all that great. Really talented but just never got the offense to flow like Chauncey could back in the day.
trade Charlie Villanueva. For anything.
decent amount of bigs, so to speak, but the Tayshaun question is the biggest in IMO. They'll stay with Stuckey as a combo guard, Jerebko and Daye will play but do they still start? Daye has been a PF-SF-SG but where will he land? Greg Monroe has locked down a starting spot and can play either PF or C depending on who else we pull. We could trade or sign anyone and our young players can shuffle to accommodate. Ben Gordon averages over 20ppg when he starts more than every other day with starters who aren't constantly changing places. I can really see Detroit wanting Odom but I don't see Odom ever EVER leaving a warm climate. My guess is they poach a team like Sacramento or Golden State or the Twolves or trade with Portland. Maybe Iguodala would move in a big enough trade. I personally love the idea of Al Jefferson or Gerald Wallace or Tony Allen or go after some of San Antonios role players like Matt Bonner. His 3 is way better than Charlie V's. I say we resign Tayshaun and trade him and Ben Gordon for Iguodala and see if we cant trade Charlie V and somthing else for Bargnani at PF or maybe make a move for Andrew Bogut before he walks away from Milwaukee. Stuckey-Iguodala-Daye-and Bargnani-Monroe or Monroe-Bogut looks pretty good with a deep enough bench.
My one part plan entails you fucking off.
The veterans on this team are not significant assets to the franchise. They are (in some order):
Anyone else is almost entirely expendable if not a flat-out liability due to the contract commitment (e.g. CV, BG, RH). I could count the qualifying offer option on Stuckey as an asset, but I have no faith in the Pistons paying him less than market value. Jerebko maybe shouldn't count either since he's a free agent, I believe...
Joe Dumars should be given no more than 1 year to show signs of a turn-around for a situation that has been in steady decline for the last 7 years. You can't live off the Rasheed Wallace trade and drafting Tayshaun Prince forever.
2 years against Joe D. He was blowing up the salary cap to make room for the big FA extravaganza but then Bill Davidson died and he had no money to work with. The wife spent more than a year trying to pass the team off for more than it was worth and all the good signing and trading went on without us.
there is a salary cap. With expensive contracts to RH, BG, CV, and TP, the Pistons were not in a position to add significant talent in free agency. We're talking about a lotto team here that, even if you add a high end free agent wasn't going to contend.
It's a weak excuse. Dumars may have been limited in what he could do, but most of the limits were his own doing.
the Pistons are one of the lower salary teams in the NBA. If you eliminate Rips contract alone with a pending deal (or in a pending deal) they are 3rd in lowest in all NBA salaries. Expensive contracts is also a weak excuse, they really aren't that expensive. The team eliminated Chaunceys contract by picking up AI specifically to make room at the top. Take a lotto team and add, say, Deron Williams, and Gerald Wallace, and David Lee then you do contend. Dumars had to hold onto his current players. and his draft picks, and his coach, and sign guys once Davidson died. He managed to do that, get Greg Monroe, and sign Tmac for a veterans minimum. What would you have done different? It's easy to say "get rid of this guy, and that guy, and those guys" but after Davidson died you can't get anyone. You can't bargain from a solid position when the owners widow is pawning the team off. You can't even go out and hire a new coach. You certainly can't move assets and change the value of a team that's for sale.
9 months. Extending Rip by 3 years, horrible. Signing Gordon, awful. Signing Charlie V, even worse. Maxiel extension, really bad. Not trading Stuckey when many GM's thought he was a future allstar(overvalued asset), bad talent evaluation. Giving Kwame 5 million a year, stupid. Giving Wilcox more than the minimum, not that bad but still bad. Trading an all-star in Chauncey and getting nothing of value in return in order to have 20 million in cap space to spend on Charlie V and Ben Gordon? One of the worst moves of the last 10 years.
The only good moves have been drafting Jerebeko and drafting Greg Monroe. Monroe fell to them due to bad decisions by other GM's. Also, there were no other reasonable big men left at that point to be drafted at number 8. Good move to take the best talent available but nothing great.
Also, firing 3 coaches 4 years is a huge black mark and to me shows a lack of leadership.
Also, failing to trade Prince for a contract of similar size plus a draft pick made no sense. As long as the contract expired this summer (eg, Caron Butler) and was of similar size it would have added nothing to the books and in the case of Butler would have saved them money since his contract was covered by insurance.
In short, starting in 2005 Joe D has been bad, very bad.
I agree RE: the oft-rumored Caron Butler trade. It'd have been a win-win for all parties. Tayshaun would have gone to a contender and challenged for a ring, we would have cut some immediate salary and gained a draft pick.
You can even argue he's been bad before that since his biggest mistake remains Darko in 2003. The Sheed deal was put in his lap as a gift. His big moves were mostly made earlier (2002: Stack for Rip, Prince/Okur draft, Billups signing). The Larry Brown thing worked out but Carslile is currently coaching in the finals so...
Dumars hasn't really been impressive since 2002, nearly a decade ago.
DWill, Wallace, and D.Lee haven't had much success and even if you add them to a unit with Hamilton, Gordon, Villanueva, etc - you're still not getting much further than the 1st round.
The damage was done well before Davidson died.
The big FA extravaganza was 2010. He had cap space in 2009. He was never going to go after Wade/LeBron/Bosh/Boozer/Stoudemire/etc.
Joe didn't have the most money to work with even when Davidson was alive. Remember trading Corliss Williamson away just to avoid the luxury tax? How about how the Pistons have never purchased a draft pick, even when players they were targeting have fallen?
His draft decisions haven't been awful. They've actually been great with the exception of Mateen, Darko, and Rodney White. He's let go of some pretty good draft picks, namely Afflalo, Okur, and Amir Johnson.
I think we can all agree he is a douchebag. Not a coincidence that everyone who has disagreed with him has been negged. There's been some great debate so far and you, Mat, and the BradyHoke guy seem to be the most informed and backing up their crap. I enjoy the banter and I'm an obsesive NBA fan and consume lots of basketball info so I enjoy these debates.
you're dead on here. However, I have no idea what that other guy who replied to you was talking about.
a) Austin Daye showed zero statistical improvement from his rookie to sophomore seasons.
We knew he'd be a project when we drafted him, but he hasn't been encouraging. He needs to improve both tangibly and intangibly to be a starter on a good team, and I fear handing him anything.
b) Ben Gordon has been horribly mismanaged. He's averaging the fewest shots and free throw attempts for his career and given the second fewest minutes. He should be the #1 or 2 option at all times when on the floor.
c) Villanueva is actually performing in line with his career averages, when adjusted for minutes. The difference is he is rebounding less and shooting more three pointers. Acquire a coach that doesn't let him Sheed out on us, and he'll be worth his contract.
d) I want people to understand that Rip's game hasn't declined AT ALL. He has an ageless skillset and is one of the best conditioned athletes in the game. If he's underperforming, it's probably due to the scheme.
You're kind of missing the point. Its not that BG or RH are terrible, its that they have no business being signed to generous contract on a team with no realistic shot at contending. BG is misused and is a good offensive player - and every contender could use a player like him for bench offense....but he's awful defensively and very overpaid. This makes him a roster liability. If the Pistons wanted to trade him, they'd actually have to give up an asset to have someone take him.
Same goes for Rip. Good player, deserves to be on a contending team, but is simply so overpaid that no one wants to pay him that much.
As for CV - you're just looking at offense, but you still have a point. Here is what I know - that John Hammond (possibly responsible for much of Dumars' success) wanted nothing to do with the guy and let him walk for free. That should tell you something about what he's worth.
The interesting part is Daye...again, you're just looking at offense which isn't where Daye needs to improve most. But yeah...he needs to get better there too.
I've acknowledged the low-if not negative-trade values of those players many times on this board. All of Hamilton, Gordon, VIllanueva, and Maxiell put up career low or bottom two seasons in minutes played last season. Of course they couldn't perform well enough to justify those millions.
I have no idea what Joe was thinking when he signed Gordon after extending Hamilton. Perhaps he envisioned BG playing some minutes at PG and Hamilton some at SF. Either way, none of our bad contracts have been given the opportunity to warrant the money we pay them, especially when Rip fell out of the rotation entirely for a stretch, Maxiell got DNP-CDs for 25 games, Gordon has the red light to shoot, and Daye got a shot to start at PF before Villanueva did.
Their production, our team success, and the generosity of their contracts have all been affected by their usage and our scheme. We would have won more games, our players would be happier, and Joe's seat wouldn't be so warm if our best players were consistently on the floor.
and draft Wade or Melo
As a Pistons fan: Bill Laimbeer.
As a Michigan fan: Tom Izzo.
This is what a new owner can do with money and vision under the current Collective Bargaining Agreement. I’ll outline where money can help and where it can’t.
All in all this probably costs about 10-20 million more a year than your average to bad owners are willing to spend but will pay huge dividends in the long run. What owners can’t do under the current CBA is just outspend their peers; this isn’t baseball. Dallas has done all of these things last 12 years and they haven’t had and under 50-win season since. If you think that’s all Dirk then you’ve forgotten how many sub 50-win seasons teams headlined by LBJ, Kobe, Dwade, Chris Paul, and KG have had in that same time span. Hopefully your owner is a bit more humble than Cuban but he is a great example to follow as far as where to spend money.
Great players are max contract players unless they're on their rookie contract or agree to take less (e.g., James/Wade) and, as such, are generally underpaid.
The key is finding bargains (rookies, max players, role players) and avoiding overpaying non-elite players.
As for everything else - totally agree.
I'd add another action. Demand a rebuild. No more clinging to hopes of remaining in contention of the 8th seed. Joe D's said that it's important to remain competitive - BS. The directive has to come from the top - infuse the roster with young talent.
If you're waiting for Detroit to sign a few "superstar" free agents, you're going to be waiting for an awfully long time.
IMO, you start simple.
The rumored Rip and the Pistons 8th overall pick to Cleveland so Cleveland can buy-out Rip's contract would be fantastic.
Then it gets more complicated.
The next step would be for Gores to fight like hell to make sure that the rumored contract exemption rule is a part of the new CBA. If I have understood the proposed rule correctly, it would make it so each team could eliminate one player's salary from their cap per year (you would still have to pay the player, it's just their salary won't be counted against you).
The obvious move then would be to choose Ben Gordon's contract for exemption, thus freeing up $13 million(?) from the salary cap. You then sit on that money, don't spend it on free agents, and try to build through the draft by trading expiring contracts for future draft picks.
This would take a number of years, but unless you happen to win the draft lottery, and there happens to be a Lebron James/Derrick Rose caliber of player in the draft pool, then this is way to go.
The worst thing the Pistons could possibly do, is what they've been doing. You need to be one of the 2-3 worst teams in order to build back up. If you're consistently picking 4-10 in the NBA draft, chances are you're going to toil in mediocrity.
the Pistons should hire:
Mike Woodson or Lawrence Frank. Both have HC experience and have coached from a dismal team to a playoff contender within years.
Trade Rip Hamilton since his contract is essentially an expiring contract with the lockout looming next season(technically he has 2 more years left but with lockout, it's almost a year contract).
Resign Jonas Jerebko and Chris Wilcox(Wilcox as a depth player)
Draft Bismack Biyombo at #8. He's a young kid with huge upside. Freakishly athletic with NBA body(6'9" 240 lbs with 7'7" wingspan). Outstanding defender who can block shots. Excellent rebounder. At worst, he'll be a great interior defender. He's very raw with room to grow into a dominant low post scorer. Once he figures out the game, sky is the limit. He may end up being the best player in the draft when all is said and done.
Release due to expiring contracts:
#8 draft pick
Ben Wallace retirement
That leaves with the roster of:
That leave 3 slots to fill. One of them is certainly going to be filled via 1st round pick unless it's traded for players. The Pistons will probably committed about 38-40 millions to the roster(35,613,032 are already committed to players on the roster if Hamilton is traded). The salary cap is projected to be about 60 million. That's nearly 20 million of cap space. Even if the Pistons have players in return from the draft picks and Rip Hamilton, they will have about 8-9 million of cap space.
Clear up cap space and build a super-team like Miami did.
First off, Steve Nash and Pau Gasol are not superstars.
Second, we need hire to Bill Laimbeer. Im sick of the Pistons hiring their own reject assistant coaches (see Michael Curry, John Kuester, and Mike Woodson would be the third)
Third, If Derrick Williams, Brandon Knight, Enes Kanter, Tristian Thompson, or Kyrie Irving, we should just go home. Darko has scarred me on International players for life.
Lastly, we need to simply cut Rip or try to package him in a deal for Al Jefferson. Utah has 4 all-star caliber bigs, somebody has to go. If Joe can't pull that off, I say we tank the season to draft Harrison Barnes. That's the superstar we need.
Enes Kanter is Turkish, aka international. As a matter of fact, Tristan Thompson is Canadian.
I just made them scary, didn't I?