Nothing. It's a legal issue, not an athletic competition issue.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
Nothing. It's a legal issue, not an athletic competition issue.
It was founded, IIRC, upon a mutual benefit for elite institutions of higher learning. That is whay AAU memebership is so important.
And as much as righteous Internet judgement guy hates it, Psu is a cash cow and will be one for years to come, regardless of what is going on right now.
Do no other cash cows exist?
PSU has won three league titles in 19 years. For most of their tenure they've been a clear third fiddle to U-M and Ohio. Without the aura of JoePa and the "Grand Experiment," maybe they'll never be any better. Besides, with Nebraska now in the fold we've got another historically elite program.
If you want to think in terms of finances, PSU brings us absolutely nothing in terms of basketball. If their football program goes in the tank because of this, what good are they? They certainly aren't good for the league's PR right now.
No other geographically sensible AAU member cash cows. Only other schools that remotely fit the bill academically are Missouri, Pitt, Syracuse, and ND.
is the best choice. I wonder if there are back room discussions with ND to get them into the B1G and kick PSU out?
A 2 year death penalty is more appropriate though.
ya, because ND to the B1G is clearly an option on the table, as we've seen in the past.
ND attemped to join the X for years and kept getting shot down; Fielding and even Crisler had lots to do with this. After about their third application was rejected and it was pretty clear they could stand on their own as an independent, their desire to join also changed because they found themselves in an enviable position. Pick your opponents, the dates you will play them, pick a few biggies pr year, pick your bye week, et.al., and all the while they continued to add numbers to their fan list. They became a distinct entity and powerful money making machine and their national following became huge.
It's tantamount to asking the same girl out repeatedly and getting shot down. Eventually, you will make the best out of a bad situation, and as is the norm, you'll ultimately end up with a far better companion. This one is on the BIG, not the Irish.
Read my post. Do I ever blame ND? No, I just say that the two getting together is not realistic. Like you said, they wanted us when we didn't want them (mostly for racist reasons), and then when we wanted them, they didn't want us anymore. The B1G and ND is not happening.
They bring TV ratings from the entire state of PA. Which is much bigger than the other states on the Big Ten. Given that the BTN is the big cash cow right now, I would say they are high on the list of hard if not impossible to replace financially. I personally see little reason to punish the university further. The people involved are going to jail forever. The fan base and alumni now represent a very scarred school. Any further punishment really accomplishes very little. If you think people that are horrible enough to do this will think twice because PSU was kicked out of the Big Ten, I would soundly disagree.
I don't view kicking them out as punishment. I view it as the right thing to do for the Big Ten.
You're hardly alone in saying the people involved are going to jail forever. While that's true for Sandusky, it is only true for him. Do you, or anyone else, truly think that Spanier, Curley and Schultz are getting life in prison? For what, perjury?
from what I've read about perjury in PA. Since it doesn't seem like their perjury was particularly terrible (they didn't finger someone else for a murder they committed on the jury stand, they lied about when they knew things to a grand jury), who knows how long, if at all, their sentences will be.
but Illinois is bigger than Pennsylvania.
If this doesn't qualify for conference dismissal, then what does? It won't happen though, too much loss in television revenue.
The almighty dollar trumps everything. Probably the truth, but very depressing.
Of course, there is a legal aspect.
Does that absolve the dual responsbilitiy of the administrators and coaches to the NCAA?
Of couse not! I've heard "it's a legal issue" a lot, and disagree, entirely, that it stops there.
The action of officials at that cesspool define Loss of Institutional Control. You have the entire top chain President, VP, over football, and head coach conspiring to conceals crimes against children.
How in God's name is that NOT an NCAA violation?
Just because it's criminal doesn't end the NCAA part.
I believe you are wrong and I hope the NCAA agrees.
Death Penalty is warranted, at least one year.
Is the name of my favorite ironic hipster band.
Yes, this has been talked about endlessly. What should the BIG TEN do though?
I misread/misunderstood your post.
I thought NCAA not BIG.
BIG should suspend football one year and come down just as hard as NCAA.
Would you be so insisting and strong in your opinion if it were Michigan, not PSU? Would you ask for Death Penalty for Michigan? I think we are behaving as hypoctites.We don't have anything at stake. Let Penn State fans to voice their opinion, for they have a lot at stake.
say the same thing about M. A capital crime was committed in the football locker room. The Head Coach knew about it and did nothing. That is just as bad as doing it yourself.
Death Penalty for Jerry Sandusky and Death Penalty for PSU Football.
PSU benefited athletically from the cover up. It at least extended JoePa's tenure coaching (and transitioning from legend coaches doesn't always work out well) Also, PSU kept their "family" culture intact by the coverup.
Just look at Analzone and the Pedo dude at OSU. The Pedo wasn't even affiliated with the school and the recruit ran like hell. What would have happened if in 98 or 2000, JoePa tells the cops about Sandusky? How many recruits do they pull in, and when is Joe out?
Had they went public and got rid of him in 99 or 2001 they have no problems and look a lot like Syracuse does now. Yeah, OSU lost Anzalone because they let the guy hang out with recruits. But that was it, one recruit. PSU may have lost a recruit or two as well, but it would have been a minor bump in the road.
Bernie Fine to Sandusky. Sandusky was convicted, and will spend his life in Jail. PSU is going to have to defend 7-8 lawsuits, which their insurance may not cover, and this case is on the ESPN front page all of the time. Fine wasn't charged. Big difference.
Also, Analzone is only 1 guy, but that's just an example of what I mean. I mean, how could JoePa go into some kid's living room and answer the question, "why did you had a pedophile on your staff for ~25 years, a man who is your good friend and are there others?"
At the very least, JoePa is out earlier (like when they tried to boot him in like 2003). If he gets even worse players in the 99-00-01 classes, maybe he is booted. That'sa competitive advantage.
The Big Ten should let the legal system run its course.
That could take a few years. There may well be more people named in the cover-up.
The Big Ten should come up with a plan of action. Sandusky's been convicted, an ex-FBI guy has done his investigation . . . that's a lot to work on. The conference can't just bide its time until 2014 or whatever, after round after round of convictions and appeals, and then say, "OK, time for sanctions."
The NCAA doesn't decide what's morally right. Again, leave it to the civil court system where a case of this matter belongs.
It is about arguably the top 4 individuals, who might well be thought to represent Penn State as an entity, covering up for disgusting acts of one of their own. If the President, VP, AD and Joe Pa did these things, it might as well be said that Penn State did these things. IMHO this is how the Big Ten should view the matter and take the proper moral high ground.
I don't think it will happen though and the sad reason will be $$$$$$$$$$$$.
best response yet
The NCAA does decide what's morally right. So do the Big Ten, churches, political parties, television celebrities, writers, this forum and each of us. Probably the only entity that does not decide what is morally right is our courts. They don't purport to and it's not their job. This was an institutional failure that most believe was inextracably tied to college sports. It is appropriate that college sports organizations evaluate that failure and determine whether action against the institution is in the interest of college sports and those that participate in them.
I haven't heard a single person expand this issue to include the entire Big Ten, so I would disagree with your statement that it is harmful to the Big Ten's reputation. Everyone knows this is an isolated incident and that there's nothing wrong with the Big Ten. PSU is a good academic institution and this has nothing to do with academics. PSU is a good athletic institution and this has nothing to do with athletics other than the fact that the people involved were also involved in athletics. Should we have been dropped for giving Ted Kaczynski a degree? Everyone involved in this scandal is now fired and on trial. Make the school give some money to an appropriate charity, put the guilty parties in jail, and move on.
If we had let him use the Chem Labs to make and package his mail bombs though, then I would think Michigan should get the boot.
Well you're arguing that PSU should get kicked because of a scandal that involved athletics. Why should Michigan get kicked out for something that doesn't involve athletics?
Dude, I have never seem someone comment so many times on their own post.
Why bring up a discussion topic if not to discuss it?
No, but if Michigan loses to App State in '14, I'd be in favor of relegating them to the MAC for a few years.
Careful. That same team kicked the hell out of St. Urban
is not isolated. it is everywhere.every campus. every city, and every town.
What do you mean by taking the high ground. Kicking them out would do nothing. They have over 40K students, and thousands of faculty. Not EVERYONE is involved in the scandal.
I admit that I don't know what affect it would have on the students and faculty. What affect did Nebraska moving to the Big Ten have on theirs? I would think no affect at all.
Yea but it was at least half of them. They are
Actually, I couldn't disagree with you more. Since this involved the president of the university, EVERYONE at the university is involved. That A-hole signed diplomas too. Personally, I think that the B10 should invalidate all the degrees awarded when he was president (between 1995 and 2011). It's the only fair thing to do.
All B1G revenue is donated to child abuse awareness/ prevention/ help. All players have no loss of eligibility, but should they choose to transfer then there is no sitting out a year.
Paterno's wins are removed from records after 1998 or whenever he knew, the university keeps the wins.
The statue gets melted down
We all know it will never happen because college's are all about the money, and not just the athletic department... but I digress.
Were my vote of any merit I would kick Penn State out and warn OSU that they are next: college football is one small part of what the Big Ten represents. And Penn State, at the leadership level, failed completely.
I am in the minority but I think College football represents legalized slavery, or at least indentured servitude ( I mean it is actually illegal to go pro: you have to play for a college). These bowl commitees are a joke, and even the athletic departments are can be seen in a negative light (I know that the football team revenue pays for all the other college sports, it also generates enough money to pay millions of dollars in coach money).
I don't expect too many people to agree with me and I understand that because the only thing that gives me any pause is the fact that the civil courts are going to work out the way they should and the criminal court already has. And everyone involved has been punished as far as we know... but it's the environment you can't indict and it's the environment, and the pressures that come with it, that kept those janitors from telling anyone, mcquery from following up, and JoePa content that he had done the right thing. I say kill the environment, stop seeing college fooball victories as the ends to justify any means...
What? Do you hear yourself? You compared college football to slavery. You said OSU's scandal (which by the way was less than our own fab 5 scandal) was worthy of the same punishment as a school that made a decision to cover up the actions of a child rapist. I'm sorry, but you need to learn how to better put things in perspective.
Did you not get that out of my post?
And the fact that there is an age limit on the NFL exist so that the NCAA and its colleges can get money. I called it slavery, OR at least indentured servitude because for the elite players it is a form of indentured servitude...
you not so good at readign comprehension skills bro?
No. The NFL has an age limit because there are legitimate fears of putting a 19 or 20 year old kid out on the gridiron to play a highly physical, aggressive contact sport with adults that range to almost twice his age at a point when his body is still rapidly maturing. While basketball is a sport where physical maturity at age 18 or 19 is manageable within the professional game, football is not.
Thus, the league has taken measures to ensure a student-athlete has to wait three years after his high school graduating class to attempt to play in the NFL. He can spend those years working in a mine for all they care, he just can't declare for the draft.
And if he is working in a mine just how is he supposed to 'showcase' his talents for the nfl?
I messed up earlier and said illegal, my bad, you are correct in your explanation, the problem is that realistically the only way to get drafted or picked up by an NFL team is by going to a university or college.
Right or wrong, the colleges profit millions of dollars on labor that is unpaid. And before you get to going with the free college tuition, what value is a degree that usually amounts to college football 101? And before you get to going with the student athletes have the opportunity to make something of their free class, there are countless examples of players being encouraged to take a 'lighter' load that is more feasible with their heavy workload of required and not-explicitly-stated-but-expected workload of being a college football player.
I know that slavery is hyperbole but identured servitude is pretty effective if you ask me.
Being encouraged to take lighter class load =/= being forced. Any athlete on scholarship is free to have the same academic opportunities as any other student. If playing football for 'free' falls under what you call unpaid labor or slavery, you can categorize high school football in the same way. After all, some high schools make big money on their football programs. Free the kids!
"Were my vote of any merit I would kick Penn State out and warn OSU that they are next: college football is one small part of what the Big Ten represents. And Penn State, at the leadership level, failed completely."
So, I was supposed to extract that "OSU places wins over integrity" from that? Yes, attack my reading comprehension because I'm not a mind reader. Maybe you should learn to elaborate instead of giving people the chance to interpret for themselves what your vague statement is trying to say.
As for your hyperbole of college football equals slavery/indentured servitude. As a black man, I take great offense anyone comparing anything to salvery, especially when it's as off base as what you've compared it to in this situation. Even you comparing it to indentured servitude is way off because you forgot one thing: Almost everyone that wants to become a professional in almost any field has to atleast show an attempt at going to college. So by default, almost everyone else serves some sort "indentured servitude" before they can pursue a professional career. Why should athletes be any different? There's a difference between having to do something for no reason against your free will, and having to go do something where the primary goal is to better prepare you for what's ahead in what you've decided is the route you want to go. Your analogies, as well as your attitude when being criticized on this topic, are flawed and short sighted.
I mean it is actually illegal to go pro: you have to play for a college).
This is not true. There is no requirement to attend a college, and the age restriction (three years after one's HS class has graduated) applies only to the NFL. You can play Canadian football or Arena League out of high school.
It is not illegal to go pro...
They can go pro.. In sandwich making, delivery driving, carpentry, etc. they don't have to play football for a degree and future opportunities to go pro as a football player (which a very small percentage do).
As someone who comes onto a college football site, pretty much declaring you have a big interest in it, and probably supports college football in other ways, does that mean you're pro-"slavery"? You might not be a slaveholder, but you're fighting the civil war for the South. If you really feel that way, you probably shouldn't watch or post or support college football anymore. Because to support something that could fairly be compared to indentured servitude is pretty wrong.
What is wrong with this site timing out today??
NCAA sanctions are appropriate where an institution gains an advantage over its competitors through some type of misconduct. What competitive advantage did Penn State's football program gain by covering up Sandusky that would warrant drastic punishment?
I saw someone else write about this and I will just paraphrase: Basically the advantage they gained was that by not reporting or by covering up Sandusky the team failed to recieve any negative consequences at the time of the action. In fact, the moment Paterno et. al. failed to follow up begins the moment they gain the advantage of having Paterno as a coach when he should have been fired for not following up.... OR something like that.
I agree with that line of thinking; they did gain an illegal advantage by not suffering and honest disadvantage...
Big Ten is first and foremost an academic conference. NCAA is an athletics association. The question is about what an esteemed group of academic heavyweight universities should do when one of their members is found to be pulling shit like this.
The Big Ten is an athletics conference and nothing more.
The CIC (Committee on Institutional Cooperation) is the academic "conference" and also includes UChicago.
Booting Penn State from the CIC is much more plausible in this situation, but that's still basically unrelated. You'd be detonating most of their research budget and totally sink them as a fairly high-ranked university because of the actions of a few people. Who actually gets punished by this? Only the people who weren't involved. You seem far more worried about appearances than what justice entails.
The criminal justice system should determine the punishment of the perpetrators; the players and students had nothing to do with any of this.
Back when this story first broke in late October/early November, I wanted to boot Penn State and take Mizzou, since they were about to switch to the SEC, but clearly wanted in the B1G. I don't think the NCAA should levy any punishment on Penn State, in terms of forfeiting, bans, scholarship loss, etc, but I thought we should have kicked them out of the conference. Their image will be tarnished for a decade at least, and there will be guilt by association for everyone else.
The Big Ten waits until the NCAA makes their decision and if the NCAA doesn't kill Penn St.'s program, the Big Ten should kick Penn St. out.
The second option involves the Big Ten acting before the NCAA and kicking Penn St. out. I prefer this option as it shows the Big Ten as being proacitve and intolerant of such actions that took place at Penn St..
The Big Ten should do nothing.
This was the act of individuals, not an institution. Even if those individuals are highly placed at an institution, they are not the institution. The institution is the students, teachers, alumni, and yes, the administrators, not just these 4 people.
The legal system is equipped to deal out punishment to individuals, the Big Ten is not. And the legal system can deal out far harsher punishment than the Big Ten can. So what possible reason is there to involve the Big Ten?
I do not think that the argument of damage to the reputation of the Big Ten is a credible one. I do not think that anyone truly believes the Big Ten is in any way damaged by its association with Penn State- I am sure people with an axe to grind will make that claim, but I have yet to see anything besides empty rhetoric to back that up.
What the Big Ten "punishment" would do is affect a lot of people at Penn State (as well as the other Big Ten institutions) that had absolutely no role in any of this and cause them hardship (perhaps as small as coming from realignment with another conference, but hardship none-the-less) while essentially causing no further punishment to those responsible -who have either died, or have been or will be fired, or will be in jail, and so will care little about whether or not Penn State is in or out of the Big Ten or under some sort of sanction.
Some may argue that the Big Ten is doing this not to punish but to deter future crime. But we are talking about an institution, not an individual. So deterence really does not apply- and again, the legal system does this better.
Plus, I really do not trust the motivation, lack of self interest, or judgement of those that make up the governing body of the Big Ten.
The problem is that Paterno became more powerful than the institution. He overruled the AD and president. That's why the football program needs to be punished. The institution put football ahead of stopping a child rapist. That's an institution problem.
No, I don't think I did miss the point. If the AD and president did not stand up to Paterno, then they need to be prosecuted as they did not do their jobs or live up to their responsibilities under the law.
You say "the institution" put football ahead of stopping a child rapist, but 99.9% of the "institution" had no idea what was going on. The "institution" did nothing. This was done by individuals. Even the idea that Paterno had too much power was a policy created by individuals who should be (and will be) punished.
To really blame the institution as a whole I think you have to show that there was something in the written bylaws, regulations, or other codes created by the institution meant to govern the behavior of all its individuals that caused the problem. (or something that should have been in those codes that was lacking)
The only argument I see for this being a truly institutional problem is that Penn State was lacking in having a person responsible for monitoring compliance with the Clery Act- there was no one person responsible for making sure that campus crimes were reported publicly as required. Still, that seems a small institutional problem (albeit one that had horrible consequences in this case) and one that has now been rectified. Oh, and this too will be punished in the legal system as the victims file suits against the institution on this basis.
to write pretty much exactly what you said in your last two posts. Well done and well written.
While I think the acts were deplorable, you're exactly right. It's not as if PSU encouraged this behavior in any way. This was an act and serious lack of leadership by 4-5 individuals. Kicking PSU out of the big ten is the stereotypical emotional over-reaction of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
People just want to distance themselves even further from PSU now due to many reasons. I get it, but I pose the question to anyone who thinks they should be kicked out of the big ten - what will that actually accomplish now? The acts have been done, there's nothing we can do about it except make sure it doesn't happen again. And due to this heightened awareness, I'd actually argue that PSU is the least likely school in the big ten to have this occur again. So, I just don't see how punishing the entire school "makes things right". It doesn't. The whole situation sucks, but I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to the situation and doesn't really help heal the students, fans, alumni of PSU and other conference members. Put yourself in the situation of a student that just enrolled there, or a football player who just got a scholarship offer. The shame of it all is enough, IMO. Don't perpetuate the issue further by more damaging action. If I thought it would do any good, I'd be all for it. But, what's done is done.
Paterno is dead...
I don't know what the NCAA or B1G will do, but I know that they each will leave a large part of its constituents dissatisfied.
There are those that see an entire university responsible for the actions of a few of its leaders. But it is too much to punish the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands if you count alumni) for the action and sometimes inaction of a few powerful men.
On the other hand . . .
Would someone please slap the PSU fans and alumni who persist in downplaying what happened or continue to defend Joe Paterno? They continue to make the argument for punishing an entire university viable.
Also the people at Penn St. now have done all the right things since charges were filed. Curley and Spanier were quickly broomed, they fired Paterno with it being very controversial at the time. Then they went out and found the toughest most credible guy they could to lead an investigation of themselves, gave him endless resources and made sure it was completely indpendent.
The B1G would suffer the most, losing one it's top three fanbases, lose the conference championship and there is no good candidate to replace them with. While the ACC would gladly take PSU and they would make a lot of geographic sense.
"We aren't Penn State".
Homer: What should do they do?
What shouldn't they do? [laughs]
Oh, they should do so many things they should never stop.
Oh, the things they should do there, my
Lisa: You don't know what they should do there, do you?
Homer: Not as such, no.
Some may feel that this is a fascinating issue with many interesting wrinkles. But, JoePa and Sandusky make me angry and emotional, so nothing less than SCORCHED EARTH will do for Penn State. THROW THEM OUT!!! 
1: If that ends up happening after a careful review (which, by the way, I think we should patiently await, while we get back to *UMich* sports) I won't be surprised or upset.
Remember when we instituted the "one Sandusky open thread per day" rule back in November, and people were all "c'mon, man, we can be trusted not to go overboard with the threads?"
Oh my God, so many Penn State threads.
Kicked out, that just seems ridiculous, what does that solve? If you want to do anything, suspend them from B1G title games for 2 years, they have already started to clean house.PSU should have to give millions to charity organizations, etc...again the current players did not cheat or lie, etc, why should they be punished, many of them were there before they knew any scandal had happened.
This subject makes me want to jam spoon in my eye.
That is all.
They still support Joe.
I think its a little extreme to kick them out. But I understand that with a cover-up this big, perhaps no punishment is too severe. I will feel bad for the athletes as they don't deserve this. But then again, when is life ever fair? If they are kicked out of the B1G, I think each student athlete should be left with the option of transferring without losing a year of eligibility. They deserve at least that much.
Death penalty in 2013
Probation in 2014 and 2015.
If they still want to field a football program after that, more power to them.
BTW, everyone is focused on football, but PSU fields other teams. For example, what are you going to do about the B1G Hockey Conference if PSU is kicked out of the conference (unless replaced by ND or one of the New England schools such as BC).
to join the Big East
At the risk of being redundant, I continue to contend that this is a legal issue and thus let the courts deal with it; let the B1G and the NCAA deal with sports-related issues according to their bylaws. If they can and want to punish PSU under some established guideline, then they have that right. But I don't want the court system to get involved in athletic matters and I certainly don't want the college sports conferences to dole out justice for legal violations without related conference rules..
Also at the risk of being redundant, the Big Ten is an academic conference first and foremost. They don't need to and shouldn't deal with this based on sports.