... until then, I have to believe that more intelligent people with more knowledge than I are making the decisions that are right for my Alma Mater.
Go blue, forever!
... until then, I have to believe that more intelligent people with more knowledge than I are making the decisions that are right for my Alma Mater.
Go blue, forever!
He could start a small riot at a local fraternity house, assaulting various innocent (albeit stupid) college students. That'd probably do it. Or have extramarital affairs with multiple loose women ranging from porn stars and escorts to a Perkins waitress.
I was in the camp that Rod could get 6-7 wins this season and I'd still support him. But now with revelations of the NCAA allegations and possible probation, scholarship loss, and recruiting and practice restrictions, anything less than 8 wins and Rod has to go. I'm out of patience and tired of the negativity with the buyout fiasco, back to back losing seasons, embarrassing losses, and now the first possible NCAA penalties against Michigan football.
RR doesn't get 2011 anymore, he's got to win in 2010, and not just 6 or 7 games. 8 or 9.
I'm wondering what you think has changed in the past few days that has caused you to so drastically change your opinion. Has Rich Rod done something that you are ashamed of and were not aware of before? Furthermore, what makes you believe that this team is ready to compete for a Big Ten title in 2010? Please provide specific details. Thanks.
I'm guessing a few think that while he wasn't trying something nefarious to gain an unfair advantage (like oversigning?) that there was still negligence going on in his program. Even if it's some bureaucrats in the AD who were supposed to keep track of this stuff so coaches can focus on the actual game, the leaders have to take responsibility. This should include other AD officials too, right? Of course since Rodriguez is under other pressure, he is singled out.
Also, some of us are swayed a little by public opinion. I am a little too, honestly. It's just something subconscious when you constantly see nothing but negative press for the man. Not that I think it has a good foundation, mind you. I'm still definitely in the camp that would give him until 2011, just occasionally feel overwhelmed by this junk.
Didn't really answer either of my questions but still a good level-headed response. Thanks! :)
... your upset about our program getting sanctioned, but one or two extra wins will make you less upset? Your moral compass is that flexible?
Its "7 or no '11 for RR next year, and rightfully so.......
The thing that scares me is that for the most part this board as a community has been saying for 2 years, that 2011 will be Rich Rods year, and now theres quite a bit of talk saying that 2012 is the one, I believe we need to be patient, but what has really happened that would justify this "target year" being pushed back more & more?
It would take some kind of Weisian team meltdown for me to advocate firing RichRod. 4 straight years of losing would probably do it.
Even if I hated the guy personally (which I don't), I just think it would set the school back too much to have to go through another coaching search and regime change. Things are bad now, but it would be even worse if we lost half of our team (again) and our entire coaching staff (again).
You can't put an exact win total on it. I generally believe that, as long as he doesn't break the law or do something monumentally stupid, a coach should get at least 4 years. Weis got 5.
For Notre Dame, the win total didn't matter. Everyone knew that Weis was a goner after the Navy and UConn losses. He recruited well, got his guys on the field and they consistently underperformed. When we get to that point with RichRod, we'll all know it.
As it is, RichRod still has a chance to turn it around. The team has been extremely unstable with a high turnover rate for 2 years now. When things things normalize and Rod's recruits see the field, the clock will start ticking, in my opinion.
Barring a 1, 2 or 3 win season, I don't see Michigan firing RichRod after 2010. Yes, I think he will still be here if we go 4-8. Michigan will be (and should be) at least as patient as Notre Dame. I do not believe the Irish kept Weis around for too long - they made the right moves with him (aside from the terrible contract, but that's only money).
On the field, I think its absolutely crazy (as in irrational) to judge a coach before the END of his 4th year. (In a sense, I think that winning 5 or 10 games TOTAL in 3 years is within 3 standard deviations, i.e., reasonably possible even with the best coach).
In that sense I would go further than HeismanPose: since this will be RR's third year, really, even 1-11 or 2-10 would be acceptable (horrifying, but acceptable, just the same). Of course, at that total, there would need to be some D*MN good reasons why they did so poorly (e.g., losing 10 starters to injuries). Really at 4-8 I wouldn't need a reason.
Note that this is wins and losses only. If a coach shows that he doesn't have a strong (though imperfect) character (off the field or on the field), then he is a goner.
I have two reasons for this take, both important:
1) It isn't fair to judge a coach before the end of his 4th year.
2) It is not in Michigan's best interest to get rid of a coach before the end of his 4th year. You are basically "Notre Daming" yourself. Guaranteeing another transition and in all likelihood two disappointing seasons anyway. Yes, there are exceptions, but if you did an analysis of coaching changes and look at the average number of wins and losses the first two years. I would expect, on average, poor years, even accounting for the program in question.
As far as the current "major" violations are concerned, they are silly. It is possible that RR pushed practice times a bit (not saying probable, just definitely possible), but, if true, that is a small black mark against him, not a big one.
Is this RRs fault? Not entirely so but it has happened under his watch. Look what happened to Moeller for doing what most of us have done. Not even remotely embarrassing as the events of the past 2 years and he was gone.
Hopefully Brandon can help with the PR. I think UofM can turn this into a positive by working with the NCAA to shed some reality on their legalese rules.
My support for RichRod is waning based upon the recent allegations. Something just doesn't sit right. However, I think he is a great coach and that we'll see that on the field beginning this year. Can you be somewhat supportive, or is this a all in for Michigan thing?
I used to live by a Flanders Street and every time I drove by I would mutter "Stupid Flanders."
I think you're similar to me; I'm supportive right now, but if he doesn't win *this* season, I'll be hoping they bring in someone better.
Have 3 losing seasons
Not go to 3 Bowl games in a row
Get the entire program on probation
and keep his job in 2011.
It's now or never for RR at Michigan. I'm a RR supporter but yesterday was not a good day for him and basically gives Michigan "an out" if they want to move him after the 2010 season.
He gets a pass for years 1 and 2. Not so from here on out.
Moeller got canned for a dust up in a bar with a couple of Tosu fans. He never put the program at risk. Today we have a coach with two losing seasons, no bowl appearances, multiple NCAA violations against his program, and we are still talking about what will it take to get rid of him? I don't get it. I was a big Rich Rod fan. I thought he was what we needed. Now, all I see is that he has brought embarassment to my school, and to the program which has been one of highest integrity. I am glad that Martin is gone and will be when Brandon makes the other move that must be done to ensure our credibility going forward. Negpoints commence.
FWIW, I don't think you're wrong to see things that way. We are all having a low moment to be sure.
If the University's internal report had laid this all at Rod's feet, they would not have had the type of press conference they had yesterday. brandon (who isn't even on the job) woulnd't have stood next to him and guaranteed his job, let alone mary sue. it would have been a whole different show. so jumping to conclusions about rod is premature as long as we dont know what the university knows and who it blames
given that, the only way these events really change my perception of rod is to further strengthen my suspicion that he's just a magnet for criticism and drama and the only way any of us will ever get any sleep is to let the freep run the program, hire brady hoke as coach and lose games in peace
Ill know it when I see it.
What you're doing right now is fishing for absolutes in an effort to later hold people to an arbitrary prediction. This is all predicated on the fact that you wish RichRod were fired today, but don't want to outright say it.
Tell us, what would it take for him to regain your support?
-I agree with your point about piped-in music.
-With Dave Brandon as AD, I believe RR's media relations skills will steadily improve.
-If he does get the program back on top, I believe there will be some type of "apology" to appease the old guard(once all this nonsense is "behind us")
I disagree on number of wins, though. If we beat ND, MSU, and OSU, I'd be content with 6-6. I'm a realist, but hate placing an definitive number on it.
If RR loses the support of his players, my support will likely erode as well.
RR to apologize for the first two seasons? Huh? RR nor any of RR's staff should have to apologize for working their asses off to build their program. An apology would be inappropriate and strange.
If anything, the torch-wielding vultures and Freep editors should apologize to RR when Michigan football wins #8 next season and the Freep-induced shit storm falls away into nothingness.
I suppose if he finishes the next two season below .500 I would be concerned and the AD would probably be out new coach shopping. No matter what their record, I will always support the current coach and team. I supported Bo, Mo and LC 100 percent of the time! RR really has not had enough time, he should get at least 4 years to turn the program around. I think he is well on his way IMO!
the team has to win at least 7 games this year. I actually felt that way before yesterday, but I am more staunch in my belief today. Really, the team is young but there should be no excuse not to win 7 games (not including bowl) this fall.
I can't take many more negative headlines, regardless of where they come from. I have bled blue my entire life and to watch this program in such a downward spiral is killing me. I support RR but the man has to win. Period.
While the list of allegations is long, the infractions which supposedly took place are relatively minor. Yes, the NCAA undoubtedly will do something to Michigan... hey everyone, CALM DOWN.
Not keeping adequate practice logs? Not counting stretching as part of regular exercise periods? Practices going an extra 20-30 minutes? Should we dissolve the football program?
Let's go back to where our mindset was maybe one week ago. If we see a team that is improved over 2008 and 2009, and shows promise for the next few seasons, leave it at that.
I liked CoachRod last week(and this week, also), and despite this garbage that the Freep has stirred up, I am standing by him. I personally believe we win 8 or 9 games this fall.
P.S. For some laughs, go to the Freep(just this one time)and read Drew Sharp's laughable column, and some of the comments. Hilarious. That is one tormented dude.
The 20 minutes issue only, end of story lets move on. The problem the NCAA is having is the same one I am. Its the QSC's. They are supposed to be arms length from the team and there role is to ensure compliance. What the hell are they doing in coaches meeting and why are they assisting in coaching? Did these people decide on their own to start to coach, or were they instructed by the staff on what to look for and provide assistance to the player. If that is what they were told to do, then, the coaching staff knows better and they have left the program wide open to scrutiny.
*Openly losing the support of his players.
*Trying to wallpaper over any substantiated allegations or blame them on others.
*2010 record -- I like the guy so much that I would probably still support him with another 5-7 season.
Fortunately, none of this stuff is going to happen.
My dream scenario: The NCAA final ruling is handed down in late October. The story has a one-day life cycle because we're 7-1 and ranked #11.
The thing I don't understand is the practice log thing. Did Rodriguez not have to do them at WVU? Did someone else take care of them for him there, and he just assumed that would be the case at UM? I just don't get how you go a year and a half without turning a single log in, and no one in the athletic department says anything to him, Bill Martin, or anyone else? So Lloyd turns them in up until December 2007, and then suddenly January 2008 rolls around and they stop, and no one says a peep. I don't get it.
wvu didnt have them
Unless you can provide a link, there's no way I'm buying this. If WVU didn't/doesn't have them, then that means they aren't required by the NCAA (since obviously if it was a requirement everyone would have them). If they aren't required, then how could the NCAA punish a program for not keeping records that they don't have to keep?
Each school gets to write their own compliance procedures (within general NCAA guidelines) and is required to follow them. (CARA-forms for UM)
West Virginia's compliance procedures did not include CARA-forms.
It's an internal tool. And we're not being punished for not having them per se, it's that without them it's tough to substantiate what was counted as stretching etc...
What would it take for Rich Rod to lose my support?
Starting approximately 15 threads asking what it would take for him to lose my support.
On second thought, if Rich Rod starting a thread on MGoBlog asking what it would take to lose my support my answer would be "you had me at hello".
How about have major violations by allowing QC guys to watch and monitor summer practice. That would be a start. No?
I have already posted this in a previous thread but it has not received any traffic so I thought I would post it here so it could receive more views.
I have been reading and following this site for over a year and figured that this would be the best time to chime in with an opinion that I haven't read. I know of the treacherous negbang and don't mind it as long as my point is made.
In his last few years as coach Lloyd Carr received a tremendous amount of criticism from the fan base for running a program that was, for the most part, underachieving. There were people who defended him but it seemed like most were hoping for a new man to run the show and bring the program into the 21st century.
Cue the hire of Rich Rodriguez and the hope that the spread and shred would take the Big Ten by storm and lead to vast amounts of success and wins. Then came all the baggage with the WVU buyout and paper shredding but he was our guy and we wanted to give the new kid in school a chance to prove himself.
Once he came in there was a ton of attrition and we lost most of our Offensive Line and a extremely talented quarterback. People still thought that we would take the World by storm but it was not to be.
We did not make a bowl in either of his first two years but it was cited that with the high levels of attrition that that task was nearly impossible to complete, so he received another free pass. The Feagan controversy reared its ugly head but lets face it, most schools have things like this happen and Michigan has had plenty of that happen in the past. That was blown out of proportion.
We move along to practice gate. It is still theory that there is a contingent working against our coach but as more time goes on it seems that that theory may turn to fact. The papers obviously took advantage of his willingness to open up the program and have it gain more exposure than previous regimes had done. I thought this was great and provided more coverage which was excellent, especially when the season had passed. He learned his lesson.
Now with the NCAA seeming like they are going to sentence us with some major violations the time has come to ask, when is enough enough? I have never met coach nor do I think I will be able to in the future. If our paths do cross I will treat him with great respect because he is the coach of my favorite football team, he has endured so much since he has come here and with all the things he had to deal with when leaving, and when I do get to see him speak he seems like a guy I could sit down, have a cold one with and be captivated by.
With all that in mind I have come to the realization that he is not the man for the job at this school. He has come in and lost to teams that there was no business in losing to (please don't bring up Appy State, it is irrelevant to this), he's brought an exorbitant amount of controversy with him, he's created a bad image for the University in the media, and now it looks as though the team may have to face penalties which will work against our recruiting efforts which are one of the most important things in college football now.
I will continue to rout for Michigan because I have done so since I was in grade school but I will not rout for this man because he took a great program and brought it to it's knees. To still be in his corner 100% seems completely irrational to me but when you're feed the same praise pieces over and over again it's clear to see why.
In closing, I would like to say that I don't believe coach is a Michigan Man. The people who coined this phrase have led everyone to believe that if you are one that you have great integrity and a moral compass that will not stray. With everything that has happened since it was announced that Rich Rodriguez would be our coach I haven't seen him do much to validate his thought that he is a Michigan Man.
He would have 100% of my support if he would stop killing all of those puppies and kittens.
I find it irrational that anyone could put the buyout "controversy" on RR's head. Really? You really don't think that RR had the support of UM in trying to get the amount reduced, given the results of the negotiations of Beilein's buyout clause?
Attrition - discussed over and over again. Please review the threads.
These allegations of major violations are of concern. I am, however, of the opinion that nothing major will result and the appropriate controls will be in put in place.
Can someone,anyone please put the final stake in the heart of this "Michigan Man" BS?
It's not one small problem, it's all of them together. I don't think the buyout was a huge deal but to the average Joe that is what it was. I don't dislike him but I would rather have a different guy in there now seeing what has happened to the image and the on the field product as of late. I am still a fan but not of the man in charge. Seems like a great guy but maybe not the one for Michigan.
To add to your point about someone being a, Michigan Man, I don't know what to tell you. I am as sick of hearing it as anyone else but it's all the old guard talks about and one of the main reasons people don't like our coach. They don't believe he is one. I could really care less.
The reason why I am so disappointed with it all is because, for the most part, Michigan used to be viewed as one of the cleanest programs in the country. Sure we had some instances were there were trouble makers and we even recruited and we NEVER had any sort of violations put upon us by the NCAA.
From a general perspective of a Michigan football fan this is what they have seen ( I will try to give an accurate portrayal of how it looks from the not as informed view point). Rich Rodriguez came in with some pretty big baggage, recruited a drug dealer (we've had problems with players in the past but they were never publicized, FreeP bias???), recruits another high risk guy a year after dismissing the last, and now there may be some serious violations that he has committed. You add in the two losing seasons, which most haven't experienced in their lives, and I would not and could not defend him to people who think like this. Most can be swayed by facts but what I have just stated are the facts.
To add on to my last paragraph, he has, in essence, come in and ruined one of the most storied amateur athletic programs in the World. Unless you have a kool aid IV that is attached to you at all times then you can't disagree with the majority of what I have said. We are the minority of the Michigan fan base. We don't matter when compared to the donors, fans who never attended, and former players. They are who matters when it comes to this because they are the majority and some provide vast sums of money to support the football program. If he were fired today I could care less because of the shit storm he has brought down on the institution as a whole.
Btw, a lot of kids attend the University of Michigan because they grew up loving the football team and can't wait to get to school so they can see them live. This is pure conjecture, but what if the team is hit with these sanctions and Sparty truly does become the prominent team in this state? Hell freezing over seems more likely but a few years ago it seemed just as unlikely that Michigan would ever go through something like this.
Stop being such a pussy.
You've shown an innate ability to be a complete waste of time when debate is at hand. E-thugging is not becoming. I guess the intellect of a feeble mind resorts to such measures when they can not articulate or when they resort to the emotion of the weak, anger.
Furthermore, I won't waste anymore time in response to your posts. You've shown your true colors and they are scrofulous. If you wish to garner a response in the future from me your efforts will be for not. There is no need to interact with someone such as yourself.
How do you expect someone to answer this question?
"This is pure conjecture, but what if the team is hit with these sanctions and Sparty truly does become the prominent team in this state? Hell freezing over seems more likely but a few years ago it seemed just as unlikely that Michigan would ever go through something like this."
Once again, stop being such a pussy.
Actually I will disagree with much of what you said. You seem to be regurgitating the MSM take on everything.
1) Recruited a drug dealer - Technically, the Feagin deal never went through, so I wouldn't call him a dealer. Seriously, as you say, there have been kids that have caused problems in the past. Feagin falls into that category because his "dealing" came after he was enrolled.
2) Dorsey - This has been discussed ad nauseum. Everyone has an opinion. I am sure he will be on a short leash.
3) RR came in with "some pretty big baggage" - wtf?
4) "ruined one of the most storied programs" - Ruined? This is just pure, unadulterated whining and hopefully hyperbole.
5) I believe a lot of kids attend the University to, well, attend a prestigious academic university. Football is not life, it is but a distraction, a form of entertainment.
As I stated earlier, the allegations of major violations are a concern. However, I personally believe there are major violations, such as putting kids on payroll and passing out cars, and there are major violations like stretching 20 minutes too long.
Finally, why are you so concerned with the "not as informed" viewpoint? Stop catering to the lowest common denominator. People go to college to develop analytical thinking skills. It shouldn't stop after one graduates.
I know I wrote "finally" above but...It seems to me it is the losing that really bothers you, and you are using that to jump on your high horse. UM has enjoyed a long history of consistent success but as the say on Wall St, past results is not a guarantee of future performance. If RR continues to lose, this "problem" will take care of itself.
Edit - I didn't notice "Ares" join date. Sorry for feeding what I am pretty sure is a troll.
Basically I was restating what had already been said in an effort to get my point across that he has done a lot of things wrong. If you'd read my post below I stated that today was the first time where I thought I should begin to post because I wanted to express my viewpoint. Pretty much everything he has done before the NCAA decided to investigate was nothing all that important but when added to the chance that major violations could come down then they add up quickly. They had already begun to add up and, in my opinion, were getting old fast. I'm sure a lot of the same stuff happened under the coaches prior to Rich Rod but things were kept under wraps. I wish he would've done things the same way. If you feel my view point is not valid because of the date I joined and decided to discuss then I guess in a month or two when I am still posting you may see my posts differently.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you lost me when you argue that RR is solely responsible for all of the surrounding controversy, when it is really just sensationalist "journalism" and infighting in the athletic department.
Sam Webb had a great analogy on the radio this morning: it's as if Michigan got pulled over going 5mph over the speed limit, while the people passing the cop writing the ticket are going AT LEAST that much over. The difference is that we just got caught.
Indeed, it is revealing that we've had the NCAA investigating our football program and all they could come up with are these things. What do you suppose would happen in the SEC? That's really a moot point because nobody down there will assault a football program like the Free Press did.
Rich Rodriguez is solely responsible. He has stated as much. He was in charge of these people, he is in charge of the program. If he is not solely responsible then I would like to know who is.
I vehemently disagree with you using Sam Webb as a point of reference on the matter. He is a talking head on the radio just as Valenti or even Sharpe is. He has his agenda and he knows who listens and pays his bills. Breaking down your point you have revealed that as long as others are doing the wrong thing then it is ok if I do it as well. That is your point in its simplest form. I don't know what morals were bestowed upon you while you developed into a grown up but that seems like one of the first things grown ups teach children, "If Sally jumps off a bridge would you do that too"?
Considering the massive difference in format between "Michigan Insider" and "Valenti and Foster", it's obvious you have a trivial understanding of the point you are trying to make.
Also, your attempt at placing 100% of the blame on RichRod seems to come more from emotion than rationality.
I think you're having some cognitive problems attributed to massive amounts of Samuel Jackson beer. Sam Webb may be more of a level headed person but I've heard him when he is not at his finest. He's not one I look at and think of as a distinguished member of the media. I never said anything about Foster, btw. Valenti knows some things and he speaks his mind. I give him respect for that because not many people are like that. However, he is someone who likes to pile on when things are down. I don't really think that either of them are all that great. They're just someone to listen to to pass the time, nothing more.
You're last statement is sophistic. I am emotional about Michigan football. So are you or you would not spend your entire day on here (yes I see that you are on more than not while reading). Rich Rodriguez oversees things as the man in charge. These people are under him. Ergo, he is responsible.
It's quite simple. You're boss is responsible for you and what you do. If you don't do the right things or disobey then you will more likely than not be fired. If you need any more guidance in reading through the board and explaining I would be more than happy to do so.