What constitutes success?
I’ll preface this by saying I loved Lloyd Carr as the Head Coach at Michigan. He stood for many more things than simply wins/losses. Agree or disagree, given a little more time, I think Coach RR can too. Change is hard, no doubt, and nobody likes to lose, but it has to be twice as hard for someone who is used to winning, like Michigan before Coach RR and Coach RR before Michigan. If you’ll remember, not too long ago, Michigan was a season ending loss to OSU from going to the National Championship Game. Coincidentally, Coach RR was leading a West Virginia team (yes, West Virginia) in the same type of game, with the same type of consequences. I started to look back on the last 3 years of Coach Carr. As I did, I had some good memories and some bad. Many mixed emotions. I wonder if other Michigan fans feel the same way. I wonder if my expectations are unrealistic, at this point, for Coach RR. I wanted to, you know, see how people felt about the results Coach Carr achieved, with regards to the talent we had, etc., and why I would expect Coach RR to come in and win “it all” without having near as much talent. In addition, I wanted to get some perspective on what is important to Michigan Football Fans in regards to the Coach. Is it all about winning the conference, the OSU game, the NC, being 8-3? What constitutes success? After much thought, I believe it is a realistic expectation in regards to the talent level you have. (coaches, players, administration) Before the season, consensus expectations were probably 7-5 or 8-4. I can live with that. Anyways, for comparisons sake, tell me, were the last 3 seasons of Coach Carr’s coaching career at Michigan disappointing, or not?
2005
Preseason #4,
Losses to unranked teams: Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska
Beat 3 ranked teams: PSU, Northwestern, MSU
Lost to OSU
Lost Bowl Game – Nebraska
End of season record: 7-5 overall, 5-3 conference, Unranked
From #4 preseason to Unranked
Were you disappointed, yes or no?
2006
Preseason #14 (our roster was loaded with talent)
Losses to unranked teams: none,
Beat 1 ranked team (ND), lost to 2 ranked teams (OSU, USC)
Lost to OSU
Lost Bowl Game – USC
End of season record: 11-2 overall, 7-1 conference, Ranked #8
From #14 (Michigan should have been ranked about #8 preseason) to #8
Were you disappointed, yes or no? (knowing we lost to OSU and the Bowl Game)
2007
Preseason #5
Losses to unranked teams: App State, Oregon and Wisconsin, (In the App. St. loss, Michigan became the first team ever ranked in the AP Top 25 to lose to a Division I FCS team)
Beat 2 ranked teams: PSU, Florida and lost to 1 (OSU)
Lost to OSU
Won Bowl Game – Florida
End of season record: 9-4 overall, 6-2 conference, Ranked #18
From #5 preseason to #18
Were you disappointed, yes or no?
November 5th, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^
...of being able to tackle on the guy with the football on the first try and work from there! :)
November 5th, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^
not giving up 35+ ppg in the Big-Ten.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:25 PM ^
...you can consistently score 55!
November 5th, 2010 at 3:28 PM ^
Oregon agrees with you. But, 31 points in the Big Ten on the road in Happy Valley should be more than enough to win 99 out of 100 times.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:31 PM ^
Not if by consistently you mean against Bowling Green.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:27 PM ^
Has to be a good guy...can't yell at other coaches for running up the score, can't call out guys in the media, he has to be above the fray
graduate the vast majority of his players
have off field success stories (like guys becoming fortune 500 CEOs then coming back to the alma mater to be the AD)
win b10 championships
not easy to do, I want it all
November 5th, 2010 at 3:29 PM ^
I think everyone would say they were disappointed with 05 & 07.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
I am about as much of an admitted Lloyd apologist as exists, but those two seasons were no so good.
2007 ended in a pretty awesome way, though.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:37 PM ^
What I consider to be a success from the standpoint of a HC at Michigan:
1. Recruiting well - we will only be as good as the talent that we have (as this season is showing), and recruiting has a hell of a lot to do with that. For a school of our national image, we should be able to secure a class made up largely of 4 stars, with a few 5 stars mixed in.
2. A team that shows good coaching by: (1) evidencing solid fundamentals, (2) does not get excessively penalized, (3) plays smart football, and (4) can make adjustments to opposing teams' gameplans.
3. Beating MSU 3 out of four years and beating OSU 50% of the time. These are mandatory.
4. Consistently having us in the top 3 in the Big Ten. I am not unrealistic. The days of the Big 2 plus 8 are no longer here. There is more parity in college football. But, We should always be competing with OSU, Nebraska and one of the other good B10 teams (Iowa, Wisco, PSU, depending on the year) for the top spot.
5. A Jan 1 bowl. We do not have to go to the Rose Bowl every year. But, we should always be competing for and almost always be playing in a Jan 1 bowl. We should not view the Insight Bowl as a season goal.
6. Integrity on and off the field. No NCAA violations. Ever. (By the way, on this point, I do not believe that RR has failed - the charges against us were totally ticky-tack and the major charge was dismissed).
7. Be someone who can mold the players from kids to men. One of the things that I am most proud of is the character of our players once they leave the school. Sure, not all of them are perfect (Braylon, for example), but largely, Michigan alum in the NFL are people to be proud of. (In looking at our current team, this is another area that RR is doing well in).
8. NFL pipeline - I know that some don't care about this, but I like watching our alum kick ass on Sundays. I want a coach that can develop players into NFL ready talent.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:59 PM ^
summed up perfectly
November 5th, 2010 at 4:37 PM ^
I think that's about right (although I am one of those who doesn't care about #8).
November 5th, 2010 at 5:17 PM ^
well done.
November 5th, 2010 at 6:54 PM ^
Oh yeah...I remember that program. They used to call it Michigan.
November 5th, 2010 at 8:46 PM ^
who has the same visible and vocal desire to beat OSU, at least at the same level Tressel has against us. To do this, you have to want to beat them at every aspect of competition, you can have against them. Recruits, offense, defense, special teams, races to the locker room, winning the coin toss...... everything!!!!
November 5th, 2010 at 9:40 PM ^
Because it was all wonderfully said, but clarifying-
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<br>Win over 75% of your games; have the team competing for a National Title once or twice a decade (that doesn't mean playing for it...just being in the conversation late in the season with a legit shot...not MSU-style "competing"); and kinda tied into #7, have an atmosphere where the players think it's a second family, they can always come back, and it's the best time of their lives.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
With any project (talking real world) one must set objectives and criteria for success/failure and use them throughout the project as goals to be met or exceeded. If they keep changing, the project and organization can turn chaotic very quickly. There are milestones along the way that can be met and the project can be lengthened or shortened based on those.
Applying this to Michigan's present situation I would say that DB has set his criteria before the year started. I am further confident of this because of his experience in business and success.
From my experience, I served as the President of a youth sports league that was in desperate straights financially. In year one we turned it around because we stuck to our objectives (doubled revenue, 30% increase in facilities and increased participation 15%). Year Two was a disaster because I could not get the board to agree on a concrete set of objectives/goals. It was my last year.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^
How about a simple one. Be a winner.
November 5th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
Since I think that your post and the general discussion implies a question about the current regime, but does not come right out and ask it, I will ask this as a follow-up question. (I am posting it here, because it relates to your post and is not worthy of yet another thread on the topic):
Do you believe that RR has been successful in his three years at Michigan under whatever definition you have for "successful"? Why or why not?
November 5th, 2010 at 4:29 PM ^
He’s not afraid of change.
Michigan knew they were getting an offensive minded coach that runs a totally different offense than previously existed. RR was very upfront when asked about what offense he was going to run. He implemented it right away, with players that “existed”. It was ugly. I think he would acknowledge that. He is getting the type of players his offense needs and in the third year of existence we have something. I didn’t expect it to happen overnight. I believe next year we will be outstanding. Is this why DB scheduled Alabama in 2 years?
RR has been honest with former players who did not want to be here. I believe his current players love him because he’s fair. He gives them an objective and demands they get the job done. If they don’t, he tries to find someone else who will. (Change again) At this time he can only do that with what he has available on his team.
The violations were nonsense. People are naïve if they don’t believe that most teams in the country don’t do this. They are also naïve to think that Michigan players in the past were “innocent” of far greater things.
Recruiting is getting better. With the cloud lifted, players can now be definitive in decision making. Honestly, once on campus, who wouldn’t want to come to Michigan?
To be clear in my first message, I was terribly disappointed in the Carr teams that had all of the NFL talent you were talking about. Each time I see one of them on Monday/Sunday nights, I mumble to myself, “how did we not??????” When you have talent like that, the expectations should be higher.
Lastly, when I stated about “living with 7-5 or 8-4”, that was in regards to this year. Next year we raise the bar. I think RR is up to the challenge.
November 5th, 2010 at 4:50 PM ^
So basically, you feel that wins and losses in his first three seasons are largely irrelevant?
Out of curiosity, did you go into the 2008 season with this kind of expectation?
November 5th, 2010 at 5:04 PM ^
I had no expectations for RR's first year. Did anyone know what to expect? I never watched WVU play, so it was all new to me. I love the offense, but I couldn't tell you anything about it coming into the season. It's complex. RR has stated that only about 30% has been implemented. Teams that have the talent, like Oregon, run it almost to perfection. I think we will be there next season.
Defense can come quicker to players. Teams all around the country are improving defensive numbers. I think we will too.
By the way, for comparison, I think RR could have coached that 2005 team to a 7-5 record. I also believe he could have coached the 2007 team to a 9-4 record. Strictly because of talent level.
November 5th, 2010 at 4:09 PM ^
I think performance w/ respect to talent level is a very good measure, especially until a coach has the opportunity to do something meaningful regarding the talent level (e.g. recruiting players that get to their junior season).
Looking back on the years you mention, 2007 is probably the least disappointing (Who would have thought after The Horror?) with the benefit of hindsight. App. State ended up being a very good team, Oregon was the best team in the country until Dixon got hurt, and the defense had lost a boatload of talent on the defensive side of the ball (including three future Pro Bowlers). Throw in the injuries on offense throughout the year and 9-4 with a solid bowl win is about as good as they were going to do.
The defensive performance against OSU in 2006 was a disappointment but the Rose Bowl was really a killer. The defense (with those 3 Pro Bowlers and 8 NFL draft picks) got absolutely shredded by a pretty meh offensive roster for USC (only Steve Smith is really doing anything of note in the NFL) in the second half of that game. Michigan had the better talent and still got beat soundly thanks to the super smartness of Lane Kiffin. Not good.
2005 was more frustrating than 2007 because the team lost so many close games and seemed to always make the one mistake that gave games away (the long run on 3rd and 10 against Minnesota was just a killer). The team had loads of talent, but some dropoff should have been expected once Henne lost the Braylon security blanket and injuries hit Hart and the o-line. Also, some of that defensive talent still wasn't quite ready for prime time (upperclassmen but still starting for the first time). Still, it didn't seem like they played their best week in and week out and a slightly more consistent effort/performance could have resulted in a significantly better record. Frustrating.
November 5th, 2010 at 9:50 PM ^
On every aspect. The truth is, now and then, we're dealing with human beings, and mostly young adults. The same problems everyone has in work, or school, happens here too. Some years you don't do you best coaching job, or the staff doesn't mesh. Other teams may have talent, but not strong leadership. Others have players just screwing up in school, or ego, or loafing, at the wrong time (Manningham and others being in trouble or not on the same page start of 2007 season). Some teams come together, and achieve or overachieve. Others never really mesh and make mistakes and go 7-5. The hope is that if you have a good coach, and recruit good talent, you get enough of each that the years balance themselves out.
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<br>We've had some rough years with underachieving and HORRIBLE luck. So we're do some major ass-kicking years.
November 5th, 2010 at 4:46 PM ^
To start, I am a big supporter of RRod and M (season ticket holder since 1988). But I don't think RRod has done enough that I would call the last 2 and 2/3 seasons a success. While he has done wonders with the offense this year and likely into the future, I would point out the following significant issues:
1. Has had troubling getting/keeping talent. While he got a late start his first year, he threw all his eggs in one basket and went after Pryor. He needed a fallback plan but didnt have one. He also could have been more persuasive to some of the people he has lost (Boren, Mallett, Warren, Turner, Emilien, McGuffie, didnt Arrington have a year to go even?). I know some didnt fit and you always lose some but I think it could have gone better.
2. His teams have broken down ridiculously in areas that you dont normally see at a top program. 18 fumbles in 2008 (many on punt/kick returns), cant kick fg's this year or against Toledo in 08, caught offguard on every fake we have faced (onside kick by Purdue, fg by PSU). Makes me wonder if not enough time on basics.
3. The defense. Second worst defense among all BCS conference teams (Wash St.). How can it be this bad? Don't tell me youth as 1) other teams have youth and 2) he is responsible for recruiting talent. I am not saying unexpected things (injuries/transfers) dont happen but no way should they be second worst. Also why was Shafer in and out and GERG seems like a questionable choice at best.
The guy is an offensive genius but I think he underestimated the other facets of the game. Although it hasnt helped that a portion of the fans/alumni/media have been against him from day 1.
I hope he is doing well enough that Brandon gives him another year as I selffishly just want to see how good the offense can get and I also think anyone that is that good at coaching the offense can likely get a reasonable defense/special teams.
Go Blue!
November 5th, 2010 at 4:49 PM ^
Beat Ohio State. All else is incidental. And this simple concept has really faded since Canham and Bo passed away.
November 5th, 2010 at 4:57 PM ^
It starts with a "W"
November 5th, 2010 at 5:27 PM ^
that Coach Rod has done as successful (at least at Michigan). He hasn't beaten anyone of relevance (except maybe Wisconsin 2008, but that proved to not be as good of a win as we thought in the end). OSU has continued to dominate the rivalry, and now MSU is starting to dominate UM as well.
For me to consider this season successful he needs at least 3 wins in these last 5 games (assuming UM makes a bowl). One of the wins needs to be against OSU, and the other a bowl win(JME).
November 5th, 2010 at 8:54 PM ^
2006 Wisconsin was 12-1, ended the season ranked in the top 10...Just thought you should mention that because you said we only beat one ranked team that year.
November 6th, 2010 at 1:58 PM ^
I listed the results at the time they played. At that time Wisc was unranked.
November 5th, 2010 at 10:25 PM ^
It's not about number, it's about noticeable improvement. You don't need a stat sheet or scorecard to see that the team hasn't taken major strides forward (except for the addition of Denard).
May be a bad analogy, but look at the Lions (Detroit, not PSU). They are only 2-5, but they are more competitive than they have been in the last few years and you can tell just by watching them.