Is a West Coast Offense really the worst thing for Denard?
I know it is a change, but is it the worst thing that could happen for the guy? I almost see it as a positive if you look at a Vick with the Eagles who is of similar stature. The reasons would be as follows:
- I'm not sure we want him running for 1500+ yards again. He wore down physically due to nagging injuries (knee, shoulder) and his throwing motion subsequently broke down as well where he kept his body open, relying on his arm.
- I feel the most dangerous QB is a passer who can run well not a runner that passes. I would have liked to see Denard scramble more on passing downs since the field opens up as opposed to defenses keying on his run.
- We don't know if Denard can "read defenses" well since last year was his first year starting and I think we underestimate the processing overhead that goes into executing the read option. What if that effort is put into studying defenses instead?
- His HS coach said he always wanted to play QB, this is his chance to do it in the NFL. Can't help but make the comparison to Vick due to their same size and explosiveness.
- We can always call a designed run. The hated rival runs Pryor out of their base offense when they really need that first down. I watched it in person in Iowa City on 4th and 13 as all the motion and receivers when to the short side of the field, Pryor reversed his scramble to the wide side of the field to out run a LB for a first down.
- The Eagles use Maclin (6-0), Jackson (5-10) and our own Avant (6-0) effectively, I assume we can transition some of our slot guys in a similar manner. Don't need everyone to be 6-3 to 6-5. Additionally, I feel Koger is a great asset to involve more heavily.
I could be wrong, but there seems to be some positives here. Not much else we can do at this point.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
I think other then the spread option, it's the best offense for his skill set. Mobility has always been a huge plus in this system. The rollouts that are common place in a WC offense suit him well, get him out of the pocket and attack the line of scrimige, the threat of him taking off will open huge passing windows.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:15 PM ^
Agree with you, and I feel like the West Coast O would open up both phases of the offense. It seemed last season like every time Denard faked the run and then threw, receivers were absurdly open. Even more absurdly, we didn't seem to take advantage of this fake run/pass as the season wore on. If we have Denard rolling out with the option to pass, or tuck it and embarrass some poor LB, I think the advantage will be to our offense on most plays. Plus Denard will likely take fewer punishing hits on the outside, where he can step out of bounds, as opposed to all the spread option up-the-gut plays that saw him bottled up and sandwiched by four defenders.
And yeah, if he wants to play QB in the NFL, he needs to show he can get the job done in an NFL offense.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:32 PM ^
I noticed while watching some of the recruiting / transfer / coaching-search interludes (aka "games") that he often had the most running room when he dropped back to pass in earnest.
Thus, I think that the best option for conserving his health - and the one that would yield the most YPC - would be very few designed runs and lots of actual passing plays with a run option.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:29 PM ^
my biggest (well, only) frustration with Denard was that he would rarely scramble. If the play was a designed run he was all over it. But, if the play was a pass, he would rarely break the pocket and scramble for extra yardage. The pass/run-option being the main deviation from this because of the nature of the play.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
Borges and Hoke should coach what they know and take advantage of Denard's talents as a runner and a passer. The "forcing systems" nonsense was bullshit when Rodriguez got criticized for it and will be bullshit next year. Our 2008 offense sucked because the offensive line was terrible, none of the skill position guys had any significant game experience, and Steven Threet was a RS freshman who it turns out isn't that great even as a "pro-style pocket QB" at ASU. Our 2010 offense was awesome because the line was solid, Denard is the truth, and he was surrounded by talented skill players with significant game experience. Next year they should be even better with 9+ starters coming back after another year of maturation.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^
This makes too much sense.
Are you sure you are in the right place?
/sad commentary on our current state of MGoBlogdome.
January 13th, 2011 at 8:39 PM ^
+99999999
January 13th, 2011 at 8:34 PM ^
Agreed PurpleStuff...
The people that insist (probably have to include Dave Brandon on this list) that RR failed by not "adapting" to available talent are clueless.
There was no offensive talent in 2008 to adapt to. And he tried anyway as any coach would. I don't recall Sherithreet running many QB Iso's. The same can be said for Tate in 2009.
My only concern with the new staff is whether they will be innovative enough to get the most out of our assembled talent, not just "allow" Denard to continue playing QB or hope he can scramble every now and again.
Hoke's embracing of the 3-3-5 and allowing his coordinators to do their thing is very encouraging though.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:44 PM ^
I was honeslty just thinking that this offense has a very real chance of resembling the offense ran by the Eagles next year. The skill sets and the personal line up almost perfectly. Of course all this relys on Denard Robinson learning to take the ball from under center every once in a while, which I'm guessing given seven months won't be the hardest skill in the world to learn.
If Denard can pull that off and Vick keeps performing the way he did last year, Denard has a chance of real success in the NFL.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^
...this here, but since I agree wholeheartedly with the OP, here goes again:
Stop telling me that Denard can only work in RichRod's offense. You can't convince me when I see Michael Vick tearing up the NFL this year.
Andy Reid is as "West Coast Offense" as they come and look what they did to adjust to their talent. Why does Denard have to run 25-30 times a game? Why does he have to put up another 1500/2000 year? Why can't some of those rushing yards be distributed to, you know, RBs? Why can't DRob be taught to pull the ball down when he's scrambling or on a designed roll out and run with the ball when he may be the best option?
January 13th, 2011 at 3:49 PM ^
It was a 1700/2500 year.
Denard is rad.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:14 PM ^
...welcome. He sure is.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:35 PM ^
750 / 3,000 next year.
January 13th, 2011 at 10:00 PM ^
Bullshit, he can run sideways for 750. 1200 minimum with your 3000 in the air.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^
Andrew Luck's lumbering ass ran for 400 yards out of a pro-style offense.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:32 PM ^
Compared to Denard, yea Luck is lumbering. But compared to other quarterbacks not named Denard, Vick, or Young, Luck is pretty damned athletic - with an arm cannon to boot.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:54 PM ^
Denard will be lethal in the west-coast offense. This time opposing Defenses wont know when he's going to run because he has more of a chance to pass instead of just taking runs on designed keepers, read options, etc . . . I think his chances of breaking big runs will increase in a more "traditional" offense because the Defense will play against him like he's going to pass and if everyone is covered he can take off for many many yards.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:02 PM ^
but it should be an ideal fit for Devin Gardner.
That is, if Hoke/Borges actually run it and don't just call a vanilla Pro-I a west-coast offense.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:04 PM ^
Shorter throws and moving the pocket to take advantage of him on the edge.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:06 PM ^
Hoke said he would adapt. There is far too much freaking out about this.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:14 PM ^
There is talking and there is doing. All they have had time to do is talk and there is no evidence they have done it in the past. I just remember the Lions and their "Wet Toast" offense. Borges is no Andy Reid or else he would not be toiling at SDSU.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
So maybe we should wait and see what they do instead of claiming they won't?
January 13th, 2011 at 4:18 PM ^
I love Denard - how could you not, but he's not a very good quarterback if you take away his running game. He has NO TOUCH on his throws. Let's be honest, he missed about a dozen touchdown throws this year by simply overthrowing or underthrowing guys that had their DB's beat. Not to mention the horrific interceptions at times. I think we all tried to overlook that part of his game because of how dynamic he was at running the ball. I don't see him working out as a pocket passer - he's too short and lacks that true QB touch on his passes. I found myself winching everytime he dropped back and threw anything over 15 yards.
I'm thinking he would best be used an all-purpose back/slot receiver that would also appear as a wildcat option a half a dozen times a game. I'm hoping Hoke is going to innovative with this kid. Invent some hybrid offense for him that features him and Gardner. Think outside of the box......whoops, they just fired the guy who tried to do that.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:37 PM ^
Denard was a first-year starter as a sophomore. Anyone in that position would be expected to make some mistakes. Tate Forcier is a "passing QB" and he made most of the same mistakes that Denard did. To be honest, the "no touch" stereotype really disturbs and offends me because I see it used a lot more often on the Denard Robinsons of the world than the Tate Forciers, and I see it used by people who should really know better.
None of us know how Denard will do in another offense until we see him run it. Because I am optimistic by nature, and because I really have no other choice as a fan that wouldn't cause me a lot of mental anguish, I am going to trust Hoke and Borges to come up with a scheme in which Denard can thrive.
Denard probably won't come near to the stats that he had last year. But Denard is the first person to say that stats are hype, that he doesn't pay attention to them, and that the team is what matters. I would imagine that if you ask Denard whether he would rather run for 1500 and lose five games, or run for 300 and lose one or two games, he would take the 300 yards every time. I think 700 yards or so would be a nice compromise.
I would like to see a lot of play-fakes and rollouts, and Denard running a lot less than he has. I would rather see Denard run for around 60-70 yards a game where almost every run he makes is a backbreaker for the opposing defense, as opposed to his running being the main option in the offense.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:49 PM ^
Winching -- what were you trying to yank on?
SO, I think you are generalizing when you say that Denard has NO TOUCH. I agree he could improve, but I think some of the hits he took early on were impacting his throwing motion and accuracy.
He's probably not the best as a pure dropback passer due to his height. Roll him out and he's very dangerous, though. Luckily, the WCO is a great set for roll outs and quick throws that prevent huge face eating D-lineman from getting in the QB's grill.
January 13th, 2011 at 7:41 PM ^
Pardon me for not double checking my spelling...
January 13th, 2011 at 5:38 PM ^
The kid wants to be a QB and he has proven that he can be. His throwing game was light years better than the previous year. Let's not give up on him improving again yet.
Besides, if they tell him that he can't be a QB here and has to become a slot ninja/wildcat guy, he probably will transfer. He can go just about anywhere he wants now - spread-friendly places, anyway.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:23 PM ^
In my opinion, the best west coast QB of all time, Steve Young, was just a tad over 6' and was not as great a passer as Joe Montana was. But he was able to make the 5-15 yard passes, and his scrambling/running ability was what truly made that early 90's 49ers offense the best in the league. He would generally take off 4-8 times a game. If Al Borges can work with Denard on picking his spots to scramble, design some roll outs where he can choose run or pass, I think Denard can be extremely dangerous in the West Coast. Remember, it is the THREAT of running not just his actual running that makes him such a dificult QB to defend. But above all, Denard has the one trait that is most important for all great QBs. His improvement from freshman to sophmore could only be accomplished by someone who has that elite internal drive the pushes one improve. He's got that.
Also if he no longer has to worry about making reads on every single run play as well as pass plays, it seems to me that the West Coast may be a bit simpler for him to run. Is that crazy talk? I mean, in the RR offense, Denard had to learn and make the proper read on every single play. In a pro-style, he can just hand the ball off roughly 50% of the time. Wouldn't that allow him to concentrate more on pass reading during practice, thus allowing him to develop even more as a passer?
January 13th, 2011 at 4:43 PM ^
Transitioning to the WCO won't be simple, but I think we can do it. The routes are likely more complex than what Denard is accustomed to in the spread we ran his first two years. He'll need to synch up with the receivers' reads as well, which can be tricky. Considering the leap Denard made from year 1 to 2, I think he has the ability and the work ethic to do what it takes to learn the offense for year 3.
Our offense in 2012 will be dominating if we gameplan properly and the players make the adjustments we all hope for. The danger, as with any offense (including the spread), is getting into a predictable routine (no adjustments for specific opponents) or moving away from short quick passes to downfield shots every series ala' Andy Reid.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:37 PM ^
we all know that SHOELACE can throw the ball.Shoelace hit 63 percent of his passes.Know we did throw alot of screen passes to are slot receivers but we also throw the ball downfield.Add in the drop passes by everybody on the team.GO BLUE!!!
January 13th, 2011 at 4:43 PM ^
I think you just knocked dictionary.com offline.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:50 PM ^
against ANY team is no easy task, even against the Big East.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:52 PM ^
The people who seem to doubt that Denard can, you know, be an actual QB, claim he could only hit bubble screens and shorts to the flat. Yet if you look his stats for big 10 play only, he led the league in yards/attempt at 9.3. I have always been led to belive that yards/att directly relates to generally how far downfield most attempts are. This makes me think we was actually hitting people downfield. I can't find YAC adjustment stats for college, which would settle the argument. But just wanted to get feedback on my understanding of yards/att.
January 13th, 2011 at 4:54 PM ^
The learning curve won't be on just Denard - the receivers will have to figure out how to read coverages as well. I don't know about RR's offense, but it didn't look like receivers had to do much reading...
January 13th, 2011 at 11:23 PM ^
Michael Vick ran a pass first pro style offense in college.
January 13th, 2011 at 11:27 PM ^
I really like the thinking behind this thread. It's safe to say I wasn't thrilled originally with the hire as it relates to Denard, but I think these coaches won't be dumb enough where they won't take advantage of his skill set. And Denard also likely realized this can only help if he wants to make it as a QB in the NFL.
January 14th, 2011 at 1:05 AM ^
And aren't the Eagles the epitome of the type of team we all got used to under DeBord/Carr? A team that consistently produces above average seasons and playoff wins, but never posseses the innovation required to truly dominate and win a superbowl.
January 14th, 2011 at 4:55 AM ^
I'm not convinced he has the accuracy to be a great west coast qb, but i do think not getting hit as much is only going to help his accuracy