Just noticed it was a tweet from 10 days ago and its still up. Sorry if this has been discussed on here before.
good luck with that
Just noticed it was a tweet from 10 days ago and its still up. Sorry if this has been discussed on here before.
Well I hope the world doesn't end next year then...
I too hope that 2012 does not bring about the apocalypse.
I bet Mitch Albom would love to co-author that puppy.
The doc was pretty fascinating. Jalen wasn't particularly kind to Mayce; but he teed things up. The ball is in Webber's court, so to speak. I think the best case scenario is Chris gets to tell his side of the story to be released in time for the Mayan EOTW, and then the FF are reunited sometime in '13. From everything we've seen, Chris is not a bad guy. The way this plays out won't be far from the best-case.
On a related note, OSU Ed is also being investigated by The Feds. So we should definitely expect to hear more on that front as it slowly develops.
There is a book and Mitch wrote it...
It has nothing to do with manning up. The doc makes a valid point that the university made millions off of selling his image and he, theoretically, didn't have money for a Big Mac. None of the other players said anything about Webber sitting on a massive stash of cash. Jalen admits that he took money so he could grab a bite to eat. I'm not justifying his taking of money, or lying about it afterwards, but Chris doesn't feel like what he did is something that he needs to apologize for considering the circumstances. I think a lot of people without our Michigan bias would agree.
it is pretty sad that the $30K (at the time) he got in free education doesnt count as much as cold hard cash. I know I paid for school and many grad students/TA's werent getting paid more than a stipend for research work. If the took the money before or during his time in AA, he was dirty anfg he knew he was dirty.
That being said the TO and the aftermath is a ton to dump on a 19 year old, and I think his career suffered for it.
And my Michael Talley conspiracy theroy is still alive and well, note it was the king of the come into the game and start jacking up bad 3's guy was one of the ones on the bench calling for a TO too.
30 K is a tiny fraction of what the universities make on the college athletes. The fact that Chris Webber got an education is great and all but lets get real. I've seen 30, 000 number 4 Michigan basketball jerseys and I don't think they sell them for 1 dollar each.
When college athletics has to come clean for being dirty then Chris Webber should come forward. That's great that you paid for school but most academic students paying their own tuition do not come from the economic background that Chris Webber came from. Webber was only a teenager when he was handed money, he was a kid living in poor conditions. Do you honestly think most kids in his situation say no thanks? And why do we place so much blame on a teenager in this type of situation and not blame the adults who tempt kids from these poor economic backgrounds?
The University of Michigan should be ashamed for placing so much blame on a kid put in the situation that Webber was put in. Saying that Webber needs to apologize is ridiculous. When are they going to apologize and return all of the money they made off of Webber? Hint: the amount Webber was paid by Martin could never approach the value that Webber had as an athlete at U of M. Forcing Webber to apologize is belittling and I hope Webber is above that. I would never get on my knees for U of M or or any other greedy college university that places blame on kids for accepting money while knowing damn well that they are profitting immensely on their talents.
The University of Michigan is an academic institution first and foremost, before they get all holier than thou and say how wrong Chris Webber is maybe they should confess to allowing unqualified academic students into their universities to make money by winning sporting events. Does Michigan have Chris Webber's best interests at heart when they allow him to study at a rigorous academic insitution for which he is underprepared? Wouldn't Mr Webber have been better served attending a university for which his academic talents were a proper fit? Oh wait he helps win games and with winning games comes money! If U of M apologizes for exploiting athletes then yes they can force Webber to come clean, until then forget about it.
Yes, collegiate athletics, particularly football and basketball generate a ton of REVENUE for the University. But, REVENUE, and PROFIT are to distinct entities. To run a successful program, you spend tons and tons of money just to get the kids to campus - legally. Then to provide them with what they need ... that costs money to.
And another thing - LETS CUT THE CRAP ABOUT THE MITCH ALBOM LIE THAT THESE KIDS HAD NOTHING!!! That's bulls***. If you get a full ride scholarship, that includeds a 16 meal plan if I remember correctly if you live in the dorms. That works out to just over 2 meals a day (maybe it was 14 - it's been 13 years since I graduated). If they stayed in the dorms, then they wouldn't be starving. In fact, if any of Albom's remarks are from their freshman year, he's either an idiot (which he is), a liar (likely), or an enabler for their bs.
Furthermore, playing at Michigan served as a training and developmental ground for Chris Webber and the others, which allowed him to parlay his talents into a long and lucrative NBA career, where he was compensated far beyond what Michigan made off him. That's right it's a free market set up where these "student" athletes are given free developmental training in exchange for providing the U a financial service, so that they can make a ton of money in the professional ranks. Webber probably flames out in the NBA after a few years if he goes from being a senior at Detroit Country Day to the NBA, because most who make that jump flame out as well.
Without intercollegiate athletics, those kids would either flounder when they reached the pros, or the professional leagues would be dominated by players between 18-21 in the NFL, or 18-25 in the NBA, reducing the overall talent of the product, reducing entertainment value, reducing ticket sales, broadcasting rights, reducing product sales, which all leads to reduced salaries for the players.
Finally, even if I agreed with a payment plan for collegiate athletes - how would you implement it over the 120+ D1 FBS schools in football or the 300+ D1 schools in basketball, and address things like disproportionate impact on revenue of an athlete.
i agree with much of what you said, but i will also add that UM doesn't make money off of these athletes. the money is used to fund other sports. UM is probably one of the few universities with self-funding athletic programs. basketball certainly helps in this process, but only a fraction of what football provides.
That's BS. First off, I don't care if Michigan served as a training ground. Michigan serves as a training ground for me currently but that doesn't mean I can't make money while I'm in school. Second it's not a free market unless your version of free markets allow for significant restrictions on what a person can do. As of right now, we're not in a free market with the NBA restriction on age as well as players not being allowed to profit off their image. I have no problem with letting someone like CWebb get in touch with some legit marketing people and agents and getting some image branding going. Finally even if Michigan is making a profit-Addidas, Nike, networks, etc--are making a fucking killing. Where do you think Addidas and Nike get money to pay school's contract? Is Phill Knight sitting on a pile of money that he hands out to universitiies? Hundreds upon hundreds of non-university third parties profit off these kids and they don't see a fraction of that money that they generate. This is modern indentured servitude.
Regardless of your personal belief, it's the law. The separation of student-athletes and income is like the separation of church and state - not all like it, but it is what it is and Chris Webber knew that.
The law is bullshit. You are missing the point. There was a law separating black and whites at one time in America too, does that make the law right? Ethics are more important than laws.
If U of M and other universities are profiting and generating more revenue off of athletes than they are giving back then there is a problem so saying to disregard personal belief because of law is ridiculous. If people disregard personal belief then nothing would ever be changed. Laws could be put in place and no one would question them, is that the way the world should be run?
I am a doctor and during residency, after I had finished medical school and passing my licensing exams, I was paid a small portion of the money I generated for the hospital. That money went to my training as well as to help the hospital function. I look at Webber's time at U of M the same way. And I wasn't allowed to work outside the hospital just like Webber wasn't allowed to get paid outside of his scholarship. I accepted that I would get underpaid for the opportunity to get trained. That is what college atheletes do when they accept college scholarships.
You can argue that college kids should get paid, but Webber broke the rules. That is what he has to apologize for.
No I won't consider an athlete of Webber's sport and stature as a resident. The university does not make the kind of money off of you that they make off of Chris Webber. I'm sorry but if you don't see the difference in the amount of money generated by a person like Webber versus someone working at a hospital then there is really nothing to discuss.
It's exploitation to sell and make the kind of proceeds that they make off of jersey sales and give meals and "training" as compensation. Training in basketball? Webber didn't need Michigan's training as much as Michigan needed Webber for wins and losses. There is not a fair exchange taking place here.
to see if Mayo keeps fighting to maintain student status for residents, despite what seems pretty firm verbiage from the Supreme Court. Then the hospitals wouldn't have to pay income tax on resident salaries and the 'exploitation' would go even further. I like this analogy-working for basically minimum wage while obtaining the required training to later increase your income potential.
Because comparing segregation and players profitting from college basketball is comparable. Laws change, if players getting paid in college is the right thing and the majority thinks so, it'll change sooner or later. I don't see anybody protesting and making speeches on capital hill about it though.
The law is the law, whether you like it or not. Sorry to tell you, but if you kill a child molester, you're going to jail. Should he've died? Probably. Will most disagree or hate you for doing so? No. But will you go to jail? Yes. Also, ethics have nothing to do with this topic at all. I see no case of morality coming into play.
If you don't see the hypocisy and immorality of universities pocketing cash raised by the likeness of college athletes that's fine. You're wrong but entitled to your own opinion. There is an ethical dilemma here and you don't need to dig too far to see it. I can't really understand how you don't see it to be honest.
And yes discussing how laws can be unethical is something that is valid discussion. Maybe segragation is extreme comparison but you missed the point of the comparison. The idea is that just because a law is a law doesn't make it ethical. Also just because you follow implore people to follow laws that are unethical doesn't make it right to do so.
It's an ethical dilemma that a college makes money off a student they are providing a free education, room, board, and publicity? So the gravy train should only head towards the student-athlete, not the university that is providing the vast majority of the support?
Chris Webber could've made money in college too, with a job. You're not having people just give you money. In the end, it's unfair to a shitload of people if players get paid. You may say who cares, but that's because Michigan has the money, tons of other schools don't.
Next thing you know, people will start demanding percentages from the money made from high school games... The line has to be drawn somewhere. These kids go to school for school, as many won't make it. 80% of NFL players have finacial problems within 2 years of retirement. They need those degrees, whether people think it or not, it's just as valuable in the end to them as to those of us who aren't featured on ESPN.
It's unfair to a shitload of people that Chris Webber was merchandised by the university for their own gains? How is that unfair for you? Were they selling your jersey in college? You can't compare Chris Webber to the average person attending a university, it's just an apples to oranges comparison. If people are pissed about it, then so be it. It's just not fair to the student athletes being exploited.
Chris Webber has no time for a job in college being an athlete at his level. Between classes and practice and games and travleing there is no time for him to maintain a job. Webber could have paid his entire college tuition with a quarter of the amount of money he generated for the university. Why doesn't the university do away with athletic scholarships and let him have a portion of the money he earned. You would see the unfair amounts of money that colleges gain off of student athletes of his caliber if they allowed this.
Does Michigan provide you with tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, as well as one staff of people to help you succeed academically and another to develop your talents for your future career in your chosen profession in which you could earn millions not only in salary, but also endorsements, in exchange for use of your talents for up to four years? It's a contractual relationship, and Webber got the benefit of his bargain.
Every college athlete knows the deal before they go - there are rules. That people don't like the rules or don't think they're fair is not the issue. I don't like that the speed limit on one of the streets on my way to work is 35 mph, but that doesn't mean I don't have to follow it or can't be penalized when I don't. It's not Michigan's fault that the NBA has an age restriction. That age restriction actually hurts colleges, because they recruit kids who end up playing only a year or two, like Webber.
And it's not indentured servitude. No one held a gun to Chris Webber's head to coerce him to go to Michigan and play basketball. He signed a deal with Michigan, and left in the middle of it. If he didn't want to follow the rules, he shouldn't have gone to college. Michigan was a springboard for Webber and the 9 figures he made in the NBA. Michigan made chump change off its no. 4 jersey in comparison. Chris Webber didn't create the Fab Five, Michigan did.
You are missing the boat on this one. Chris Webber and men's basketball merchandising makes CONSIDERABLE PROFIT! The overall athletic department does not make profit simply because of expenses for all of the sports. This does not mean that Webber and athletes of his talents do not make the bulk of this money for the university. Without men's basketball and football programs where would the other sports be? You think that they generate little revneue overall now, just take away the PROFIT that the men's basketball and football teams generate. Where would that leave the athletic department? You fail to include the amount of indirect money that boosters send to the university because of talented people like Webber and the impact they have on wins and losses.
Maybe the university should stop exploiting players by taking the money that the players generate and then distribute it wherever they want. If meals and training are payment enough then let the kids that make the large amount of money decide. Give them a portion of the money that they earn and let them pay it however they choose. The thousands of Michigan number 4 jerseys sold should have been part of Chris Webber's personal profit, they are selling his likeness. If college athletics wants to be fair then stop selling these young athletes' jerseys and likeness. They are taking profits that aren't paid back evenly.
Michigan recieves donations because of people like Chris Webber that bring respect and wins to the program. Yet we continue to compare him to regular students, well that's simply not fair. Webber wasn't a normal student at U of M, he was being merchandised. While he may not have had it as bad as Albom mentioned, he wasn't from a family with a lot of money. He couldn't afford normal things that most college students take for granted. When you have lots of money coming your way when you have been poor all of your life, it's hard for a TEENAGER to say no. Ed MArtin was an adult preying on him, let's place a little more blame in the adults who exploit kids, thank you.
Was Webber on scholarship at Detriot Country Day? If not what poor black kid from the gehtto's parents can afford that? Did Michgan make bank of the fab five... Hell yes they did. But for Webber to act like he was poor and couldn't afford to eat if Martin didn't give him money is bull. Allso I'm not sure I am buying Album's crap that he never lived like he had money. We know Bullock and Traylor lived like they had money. Was Albom following them around and writing stories about it? No he wasn't it took a drunken car accident for the lid to blow off.
Just because Bullock and Traylor showed off money, doesn't mean Webber had any. He most likely did as he was closer to Martin than anyone, but your logical is severly flawed nonetheless.
It's true that the scholarship, books, and board that athletes get doesn't come close to giving them a proportional cut of what they are generating for the school, especially in a case like this where so much is being generated in apparel sales, etc.
BUT Webber knew what the rules were, and he knew that if he broke them there could be consequences for his teammates, his program, and his school. He took the money anyway and then skipped off to the NBA, leaving others to deal with said consequences. That was wrong and that was selfish, and he needs to own that.
What did he really do for the school? The wins were vacated and the program went over the edge of a cliff. So ultimately, Michigan lost every game Webber played in and a lot more after he left. Sorry, but that's not a positive legacy. It's a legacy of shame and humiliation.
First get your facts straight about him. He was not from a poor background, he had 2 working parents at home and went to Country Day. He is not Jalen Rose or Juwan Howard from the hood and as the movie said that always bothered him.
Also, please stop making a victim out of him or everyone else that plays college sports. He did not have to go to the University of Michigan and he did not have to take money. He did not have to lie to a grand jury, he did not have to lie to university or the fan base. If Webber would have come clean about this from the start and wrote a check to the university (walking around money for an NBA star) for what he took this would have been all forgotten.
Finally, you mention about how much money Michigan made off of Webber. Can we put a dollar amount on the damage Webber's actions have done to the basketball program? Unless you were born yesterday and not lived through the past 15 years, how can quantify the damage his actions have done to the university. He needs to step up and be a man and admit what he did.
Take a step back and look at the whole picture. Michigan had indeed lost institutional control of the program; lots of kids got money from Ed Martin. The fact that Webber lied to a Grand Jury is independent of UM.
Our own emotional need to pick a single scapegoat should not cloud the fact that many factors played into the demise of our hoops program, from Ed Martin working outside the rules, to Martin getting into actual legal trouble, to the program and University ignoring outside influences to players, etc.
I find it almost impossible to blame the kids for these types of issues, especially just one of several kids who "broke" rules.
Wow so Webber had two working parents so he msut have been middle class right?? Bullshit! He was poor and you need to check YOUR facts. He was given a scholarship to attend Country Day. It has nothing to do with the amount of money he could afford to pay.
Quit making the university to be the victim. They didn't have to give him a scholarship or profit off of Webber either but they did. Don't turn a blind eye to the hypocisy in sports. Sure Webber made mistakes as a teenager but he was surrounded by LOTS of adults making bigger mistakes by their own wrongdoings. Ed Martin didn't have to tempt a young, poor youth to take money but he did. Place a ltitle more blame on adults who should know better.
Webber was from a middle class family (his mom was a teacher and his dad worked at GM) get your facts straight and quite making him out to be the poster child for explotation of big time atletics. Again Webber did not have to go to Michigan, he did not have to take money illegally, he did not have to lie to a grand jury about it, he did have to sit back all these years and not stand up like a man to take responsibility for it like adults do. Last I checked he is not 19 anymore!
Question for you Woodsen 2. If the Chris Webber's of the world are getting screwed and should get paid as you say. How much do you pay the back up point guard on the women's basketball team or the swimmer or the 3rd baseman on the women's softball or the back up left tackle at Central Michigan or the wrestler or the lacrosse players, etc, etc.? Are all these players getting taking advantage of by having a scholarship? You like making victims out of people, while lets just pay the players in the sports people care about and do away with Title 9. What would you say then?
Well Woodson2, are you then excusing his blatant lying in court about the whole fiasco which got him the $100,000 fine and the community service? He lied to the court about this and he lied to the University. It doesn't matter if he or anyone thinks that the system is flawed, he still won't admit to his wrongdoings which is pretty sad.
I have no idea what Chris Webber has done in his past. I wasn't there. Everyone claims he lied about the whole thing well I simply don't need to judge because I wasn't there when money was exchanged. I know that what we have heard is he took money as a teenager. He was a young poor kid that took money! OH THE SHAME.
Meanwhile the NCAA and U of M profit immensely off of talented athletes like Webber. And they want HIM to apologize for mistakes he made as a kid. If you don't see what's wrong here that is pretty sad too. So continue to demonzie a kid who made mistakes, I'll stick to blaming the adults who should know better.
Why do you even watch college sports if all it does is exploit poor black kids?
Well, I'd start checking my facts before lecturing on the evils of Michigan. Webber was not some poor, inner city kid who was ill-prepared for college. He came from a two-parent home, went to a highly regarded private high school, his mother was a teacher, his father (if I remember right) worked for one of the Big 3.
Chris Webber wants you to believe he was an inner-city kid with all of the odds against him. He wasn't. He was a magnificently talented athlete who had many advantages when compared to his peers and yet bitches and complains about how exploited he was. As far as I'm concerned Michigan gave him a stage that he used well and turned into millions and millions of dollars in the NBA.
And there can be no counting of the money he made the university without a counting of the costs of the entire Martin scandal.
He "theoretically, didn't have money for a Big Mac"? Really? I'm pretty sure his dad worked at GM. Couldn't his dad float him a few bucks for some McD's?
How is that any different than a rank and file student, but who also doesn't get all the perks a Chris Webber surely got? Sure those guys work insanely hard too. Push/pull, upside and downside. That's life.
These guys have a very rigid outlook where they only talk about the downsides to them like they are the only ones who deal with said downside. Grow up and stop making excuses for breaking the rules.
The rules suck in a lot of ways, but come one. Doesn't this sorta come down to guys who refuse to recognize the value of a paid education?
Jeez man, he took $270,000 dollars from Ed Martin! I can understand taking 50 bucks here and there for some food and clothes and such, but he deserved to get caught taking that much.
It was probably a pay cut to come to Michigan from Country Day. :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Webber father, worked for GM in a factory as a Plant Foreman I believe, and Webber's mom was a teacher, yes? Let's compare and contrast that to my family, (I went to U of M from 88-93, so I think my years compare favorably). My father was a skilled tradesman for GM, my Mother was a stay at home mom. My parents put me through college. Chris's didn't. Yet I'm supposed to cry a river for this guy? What? I call bullshit on that. I have for over 15 years now. Jalen came from poor circumstances, Chris or Mayce or whatever name he wants to call himself didn't. So take that mamby pamby crap elsewhere.
As another poster already commented, Webber always tried to act like he was poor because it was "cool," but his parents and upbringing were strictly middle class. Then, he used his "poor me" routine as an excuse to be THE hub of Ed Martin Savings and Loan. He has always been evasive, never coming clean on the entire process. Now, Webber refuses to participate and then says "Hopefully, I'll GET to tell my side soon."
What a bleeping drama queen. If he wants to tell his side, it's easy. All he has to do is just do it. Anyone in the national media would grant him an interview in a heartbeat. If he really wanted to make a statement, he could start a cwebb.blogspot.com blog for free. He could even tell his story to someone else, outsource the typing, and monetize the blog with adsense and make a few bucks on the side.
"Hopefully?" The only "hopefully" that applies here is, "Hopefully, Webber will stop playing both ends against the middle and come clean sometime." He wants to tell his side of the story? Great. All he has to do is tell it. How bleeping hard is that?
Yes. You absolutely nailed it. He declined all attempts at interviews including this one.
He ought to stop acting like a victim. He gave a lot to this University but it can't be acknowledged, due to his actions
He doesn't owe some mysterious poster on a sports board anything. He also doesn't owe the university anything. They made their money off those kids and they made their money after attending Michigan on scholarship.
The 4 players that did participate all said or intimated that things between the 5 are good now. IMHO, the only person he owed anything to was his team and that has already been taken care of privately.
We can all bitch an moan about the repercussions and reasons that things happened, but Webber has made his millions and is now retired and I'm guessing really doesn't think too much about any of this any more than you think about things you did wrong in elementary school.
Some people love to discuss the "Athletes make money for their university" issue and rightly so I think.
No one every discusses the "Cheating athletes/coaches costing their university" issue. So, while Webber helped make Michigan tons of cash, his actions then cost them tons of cash as well.
Eh. Don't think those two were proportionate.
But Webber cost Michigan huge in the reputation department and crippled our basketball program for more than a decade.
No one denies that Universities make money on student athletes but that is the price for admission. You get to be a high profile athlete, auditioning yourself for a career in the NBA and once you get out you get the contracts/endorsements to go with it. If you dont like it, its simple; dont play or go straight to Europe to play ball.
Don't take this the wrong way, I generally agree with you. But, times were very different then. In the three drafts before Webber went to the NBA, there were 3 sophomores, no freshman, and no high school seniors drafted. Unless you were an absolute superstar, your options at the time were to go to college for 3-4 years before you ever saw a dime, and even if you were a superstar, you pretty much had two years before you earned any money.
It wasn't until 1995, when Kevin Garnett entered the draft, that anyone considered options different than partaking in NCAA basketball. While I think most players could have gotten by, and shouldn't have taken money, I don't think the issue was nearly as black and white as it is now.
Please don't be hypocrites. The people saying that college athletes should be able to make a little money are the same ones lambasting OSUs Tat Five for breaking the rules. The rules are the rules. They have been well thought out by countless people that understand the dynamics and scope of the collegiate sporting world.
For those of you making the statement that the university makes a ton of money off these kids, get real. The university, especially Michigan, uses that money to not only fund the budgets of other sports, but they also provide for academic funding. That money goes towards scholarships for non-athlete students, research and development, endowments, etc. Even so, yes, money is made. It needs to be and it is the definition of a free market. Anyone who collects a paycheck should understand this. The money you make for your employer greatly exceeds the money you are paid in return. It has to be this way or every business would fail.
The same goes for scholarship athletes. They are provided with an education, food, housing, clothes, and the means to further their abilities. Depending on the university, the average cost of "employing" a student-athlete can be between $80,000 to $140,000 per year. The average cost for 716 scholarship athletes at Michigan is approximately $130,000 per athlete per year and the average return on investment is about $140,000 per athlete per year. $10,000 in revenue per athlete over cost is hardly making a ton of money, so for those of you that propose some form of payment system for players I hope you realize that ticket prices will go up as well as tuition costs.
No single player is above the rules, no matter how significant their value to the program. They will have their chance to make more money than most in a lifetime at the next level. The system isn't broke. Don't try to fix it.