Saw this article in the Detroit News. He actually believes Gardner will see the field at some point next year.
Webb DetNews: High Impact Newcomers
How soon we forget how incredible Tate was in the ND game and the MSU game... we get pissed about how people can't seem to remember how we owned "The Chosen-bow" in the Cap One Bowl a few years back, but we can't even remember how nails our young QB was just last season. Wow.
people think that because of his HS and QB coaching, he has already reached his full potential, so Tate last year = Tate as a senior QB, who played for 4 years.
That's obviously ridiculous, but I guess it's better to hope the new guy wins, as opposed to the incumbent progressing.
Tate wasn't exactly incredible in the MSU game. He was inconsistent and generally below average until the fourth quarter, when he led two touchdown drives. So it was good to see his grit at the end of the game, but he didn't exactly dominate or anything.
I do think that Forcier played rather well for a freshman and showed great ability at times, but I don't think that he was exactly awesome last year either. That said, considering his rather large edge in experience and refinement on Gardner, I think that he probably will start all four years.
The whole team was inconsistent in the MSU game. The fact is that as Tate progresses, each year he'll get closer to all 4 quarters being like the last quarter.
I think you might have overlooked the fact that in addition to the lackluster running game, this was Tate's first road game.. in one of the most hostile environments Michigan plays in.
were likely due to the fact that M had literally no running game, and he had to do it all alone. When it got to the end and he had no other choice, he put the team on his shoulders and did all that he could, but fell just short.
People also forget that he played half the season with a broken torso. Just like people forgot that Chad Henne played the last half of his senior year with a dislocated shoulder.
Do QBs use their arms much? I can't remember...
Yes, it was a partially torn labrum that didn't require surgery. A broken torso is a bitch to recover from.
True, that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the average recovery time for a torso broken into two or more pieces is simply listed as "undefined".
a broken torso, ummmm OMG Tate was broken in half!! I herd the doctors at U of M were good but that is just crazy good
Great QBs have to adapt to their circumstances. If one arm doesn't work, use the other. And if both arms don't work, learn to grasp the ball with your foot. In fact, all QBs should use this model as an inspiration as how to cope properly with injuries:
I can't speak for others, but I personally worry about Forcier's ceiling and his competitive drive. I'm not sure he has what it takes physically or competitively to be a dominant QB in Rrod's offense. Time will tell if Gardener has what it takes, but I'm more confident in him long term than Forcier.
I was surprised to see Black on the list. I thought he was a sure redshirt. Hopefully he can contribute, even if it is just on third and long.
How the HECK can you be more confident in somebody you've never even seen play at the college level?
Doesn't your question kind of betray the answer? If I've seen Forcier play enough to believe that he does not have a great future, then it's plausible to have more confidence in Gardner reaching his potential than Forcier making the improvements he needs to make. For example, I have more confidence in Turner's future than Kovacs'. I've seen Kovacs play in college, but never Turner. Nevertheless, that fact does not prohibit me from having more confidence in Turner.
Good job making logic cry.
Where is your questioning of Tate's competitive drive coming from? That seems like an odd criticism.
Tate lacks competitive drive? Am I missing something? That seems like one of his strongest attributes to me.
There is a difference between competitive drive in a game and competitive drive off the field in preparation for the game. My concern was about the latter, not the former.
I don't think Forcier will ever be a great QB (few are). There was plenty of evidence last season to support that belief. People can speculate that most freshman QBs struggle, but it is also true that many Qbs struggle as freshman and then continue to struggle throughout their careers.
do you have that possibly points to the fact that Tate lacks a "competitive drive off the field in preparation for the game."?
He was a freshman, even Matt Barkley (the #1 QB in the country his year) struggled as a true freshman on USC (amazing team, with a coach who is now an NFL HC).
Saying that a major weakness of a qb is throwing too many interceptions is like saying a major weakness of a running back is that he runs backwards. Its a big oversimplification. Many things are going on to cause those interceptions, some of which might be Tate's fault and some which might not be.
Since I dont know the answer, I'll take the easy route of throwing the question back to you - why was he throwing too many interceptions?
I think it would be fair to say that a major weakness of a running back is fumbling too much which is quite analogous to the QB interceptions.
More to the point, most of those interceptions were due to poor decision making/trying to do too much. Things that are typically reduced in frequency through experience. Exception to the rule: Brett Favre. :)
First, the reason you gave for interceptions is a major one, but I still think there are more factors influencing interceptions than just that one. E.g., WR routes, accuracy, etc.
Second, I have stated several times in this thread that I think Tate will improve. Take the time to read.
Now I feel like an asshole for being so reactive. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Many freshman posters struggle with forming logical arguments and they continue to struggle forming logical arguments throughout their MGoCareers. I don't think you will ever be a great poster (few are).
[edit: that could come across as more dick-ish than I intended. I just don't see where your argument is coming from. I prefer not to count Tate out based on his freshman season and the fact that many other QB's struggle. I also think the "lack of competitive drive" is completely bogus.]
Straight bullshit, yo. When Gardner makes all the same mistakes Tate made last year because he is a DAMN FRESHMAN, who will you have left to lose faith in?
when freshman football players make "freshman mistakes",
the conventional wisdom is that it's because Rich Rodriguez doesn't know what conference he's in.
Well, that probably won't be fixed for Gardner. I think the solution is mandatory eight-hour practices in the summer and ten-hour Sundays in the season. RR needs to get that started up.
I'll toss in my opinion on the qb race here, though it is heretical, and will get me negged, but so what. I think Denard will eventually get the start next season. I think Denard will surpass Tate. Denard has a stronger arm, is faster and much more dynamic. He lacks accuracy, which can be taught; he lacks decision-making skills, which will come with experience. Denard has superior gifts, if he can learn the system, the defenses, he will make better decisions, and, given that he improves in accuracy, he will surpass Tate. And let's face it, Tate did not impress in terms of decision-making last year. Denard does not have that far to go to surpass Tate. And I think he will.
As for DG - backup in 2011. RS in 2010. For this year, learning will get us further than replacement will.
Just kidding...but not really.
Sorry to tell you this, but Denard is all but out of the QB competition. Among other things, he's so far behind Tate on absorbing the zone read scheme that even if Tate took a year off, he'd be hard pressed to catch up.
games do not start until September. Robinson was not an early enrolee, Tate was. I am not saying that Robinson will surpass Tate, but to suggest that he has reached his ceiling on learning as a freshman is insulting.
Why can't Robinson (who has not even been on campus a full year) get better at the QB positiion, as nearly every other quarterback in the hisotry of the game has done as they gain experience?
I didn't realize you were sitting in on all the practices.
if Denard really progressed that quickly, I just don't see it happening. His throwing was sooooooooo bad last year. He does have a stronger arm but it didn't help him when he threw deep anyway. Accuracy can be taught but not fast enough for him to over take Tate. I do expect to see him get plenty of snaps though.
Im curious as to why you think Denard will improve so much at decision making, while Tate won't? As Denard progresses in his decision making-skills, wouldnt Tate as well?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Tate gets injured and has to sit a game or two out this year, I believe Denard will become the starter for the rest of the year. He's more physically gifted, he's got a stronger arm, and now he will have a full year of learning/conditioning (did you see the track pics?)/ and executing in practices.
I believe both he and Tate will progress from last year and I believe Tate will get the start against Uconn. But if Denard gets any significant playing time.....
I find it interesting how highly he praises his hands at the line of scrimmage. From every scouting report I've read on the kid, using his hands is what he needs to work on the most. But he seems to think that's one of his best attributes.
Im not sure accuracy and decision-making is as teachable as you think. If it was, the best athletes would always be QBs, where they could have the most impact. Starting Denard would significantly hinder our passing game, and we have a lot of playmakers at the WR positions who would be marginalized.
Yes, its a huge assumption regarding the teachability of accuracy. I think decision making, however, will come with experience. And you are also right in that who starts is also determined by the playmakers around him. I do think Denard will start, but it's an opinion, and you know what those are like...
Could you state a specific example or two where the best guy did not play? Are you referring solely to guys redshirting even when they'd be better than the walk-on (for example :)) who was getting playing time?
Is that sorta what happened with Turner this past season? He came in late and had a lot of catching up to do, but from what I've heard he may have been a better option than what was on the field by the end of the year.
I can not belive people have problems with the way Tate played last year. He was a true freshman and he played hurt most of the year. As for the training he has gotten and reaching his full potential thats total BS, thats like saying Lebron James is amazing now he cant learn anything else. When Tate got his training he was a kid/teenager as he grows up he learns new things, better decision making, better understanding of the game, he will adjust to the speed of the game. I dont know if that makes sense or not im just so F pissed off that people dont support Tate and the way he plays.
Ps: Accuracy u either have it or u dont couse if it could be tought that easily than Rick Ankiel is willing to pay millions just to throw a goddamn strike or all the other quarterbacks that have all the tools but the accuracy.
You argue that great athletes can learn, grow, improve, but just not in accuracy. Really? Has Lebron's shot not improved since high school?
I agree that all young athletes can improve. And I think most here appreciate how Tate played last year. But we are talking relatively, comparatively in terms of the next couple of years. I for one am not arguing that Tate is not going to improve, I think (not really trying to argue, because who the hell can really say?) that Denard will also improve, and surpass him at some point.
I expect Fitz. Toussaint, Gallon, Campbell, Emillen, LaLota to make an impact
LaLota hasn't really gotten great reviews. I think he's further away from contributing than the others.
Is never close to his potential. ever.
Tate may not be equal to Devin in talent, but he was still a top tier QB. In most programs, he would have redshirted, and been ready to play this year.
I think people have very short memories about how good Tate can be. With an improved offensive line, and year under his belt, he should be a lot better.
If Devin plays this year...I think that is a bad sign, not a good one.
Im not saying accuracy cant be taught im saying is a lot harder than u think. Especially for a QB who has to have the right motion of throwing and a lot of other things. Im willing to bet you that this year and probably next unless Tate is injured he will be the starting QB for us. Even if he is unseated it wil be DG and not Denard im not trying to be diss DR talent i just dont think he is superior as a QB to unseat Tate
Even with the depth, I would expect one of the early enrollees at RB and WR to contribute this season.
Having Gardner in early will be nice in the long run, but I hope Tate and Denard progress enough that he can redshirt. I do not want to see another true freshman QB, if possible.
In the meantime, it's going to be a long few months until the Spring game. Argh.
If nothing else, I think we can all agree that debating about who might start between Forcier, Robinson, and Gardner is significantly less gut wrenching than debating about who might start between Threet, Sheridan, and Feagin.
The fact that people are getting chippy about this is pretty amusing. I think Tate emerges as QB-1, but I'm not arrogant enough to think my opinion holds more weight than anyone else's. And I, for one, will cheer whoever leads the team onto the field.
I think it would only be fair to Tate to consider what his numbers looked like when adjusted by removing his one disastrous game(OSU) and his two non-throwing games(EMU and Baby Seal U).
Against OSU, Tate threw 1 TD and 4 INT's, coming into that game he had 12 TD's and only 6 INT's: a VERY good TD-to-INT ratio for a true frosh.
Against EMU and Baby Seal U (aka Delaware St.), Tate only threw a combined 15 pass attemps and had no TD's or INT's. In those games UM went almost exclusively with the run and Tate did not get to pad his passing stats like most QB's will do when playing opponents of that caliber.
So...Tate's adjusted 2009 stats (9 games not including the aforementioned 3) were:
133 for 228 (58.3% completion rate)
1717 passing yards
7.5 yards per attempt
12 passing TD
190.8 yards passing per game
Those numbers are really solid for a true frosh. Pryor put up similar numbers his freshman year and he was talked about as a darkhorse Hesiman candidate as a sophomore.
Get ready for some no fly zone.