Webb DetNews: High Impact Newcomers
Saw this article in the Detroit News. He actually believes Gardner will see the field at some point next year.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100211/OPINION03/2110394/1004/SPORTS/J…
February 11th, 2010 at 9:14 AM ^
How soon we forget how incredible Tate was in the ND game and the MSU game... we get pissed about how people can't seem to remember how we owned "The Chosen-bow" in the Cap One Bowl a few years back, but we can't even remember how nails our young QB was just last season. Wow.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:19 AM ^
people think that because of his HS and QB coaching, he has already reached his full potential, so Tate last year = Tate as a senior QB, who played for 4 years.
That's obviously ridiculous, but I guess it's better to hope the new guy wins, as opposed to the incumbent progressing.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:36 AM ^
Tate wasn't exactly incredible in the MSU game. He was inconsistent and generally below average until the fourth quarter, when he led two touchdown drives. So it was good to see his grit at the end of the game, but he didn't exactly dominate or anything.
I do think that Forcier played rather well for a freshman and showed great ability at times, but I don't think that he was exactly awesome last year either. That said, considering his rather large edge in experience and refinement on Gardner, I think that he probably will start all four years.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:52 AM ^
The whole team was inconsistent in the MSU game. The fact is that as Tate progresses, each year he'll get closer to all 4 quarters being like the last quarter.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:48 AM ^
I think you might have overlooked the fact that in addition to the lackluster running game, this was Tate's first road game.. in one of the most hostile environments Michigan plays in.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:08 PM ^
for consistent O-line play in 2010. Giving Tate more time will help cure many ills. The kid is an accurate passer that can hit his targets if they get open.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:15 AM ^
were likely due to the fact that M had literally no running game, and he had to do it all alone. When it got to the end and he had no other choice, he put the team on his shoulders and did all that he could, but fell just short.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:36 AM ^
People also forget that he played half the season with a broken torso. Just like people forgot that Chad Henne played the last half of his senior year with a dislocated shoulder.
Do QBs use their arms much? I can't remember...
February 11th, 2010 at 9:41 AM ^
Wasn't it a partially torn labrum?
February 11th, 2010 at 9:59 AM ^
Yes, it was a partially torn labrum that didn't require surgery. A broken torso is a bitch to recover from.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:46 AM ^
True, that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the average recovery time for a torso broken into two or more pieces is simply listed as "undefined".
February 11th, 2010 at 12:39 PM ^
a broken torso, ummmm OMG Tate was broken in half!! I herd the doctors at U of M were good but that is just crazy good
February 11th, 2010 at 9:41 AM ^
Great QBs have to adapt to their circumstances. If one arm doesn't work, use the other. And if both arms don't work, learn to grasp the ball with your foot. In fact, all QBs should use this model as an inspiration as how to cope properly with injuries:
February 11th, 2010 at 9:40 AM ^
I can't speak for others, but I personally worry about Forcier's ceiling and his competitive drive. I'm not sure he has what it takes physically or competitively to be a dominant QB in Rrod's offense. Time will tell if Gardener has what it takes, but I'm more confident in him long term than Forcier.
I was surprised to see Black on the list. I thought he was a sure redshirt. Hopefully he can contribute, even if it is just on third and long.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^
How the HECK can you be more confident in somebody you've never even seen play at the college level?
February 11th, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^
Doesn't your question kind of betray the answer? If I've seen Forcier play enough to believe that he does not have a great future, then it's plausible to have more confidence in Gardner reaching his potential than Forcier making the improvements he needs to make. For example, I have more confidence in Turner's future than Kovacs'. I've seen Kovacs play in college, but never Turner. Nevertheless, that fact does not prohibit me from having more confidence in Turner.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:01 AM ^
Good job making logic cry.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^
Where is your questioning of Tate's competitive drive coming from? That seems like an odd criticism.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:56 AM ^
Tate lacks competitive drive? Am I missing something? That seems like one of his strongest attributes to me.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:13 AM ^
There is a difference between competitive drive in a game and competitive drive off the field in preparation for the game. My concern was about the latter, not the former.
I don't think Forcier will ever be a great QB (few are). There was plenty of evidence last season to support that belief. People can speculate that most freshman QBs struggle, but it is also true that many Qbs struggle as freshman and then continue to struggle throughout their careers.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:23 AM ^
do you have that possibly points to the fact that Tate lacks a "competitive drive off the field in preparation for the game."?
He was a freshman, even Matt Barkley (the #1 QB in the country his year) struggled as a true freshman on USC (amazing team, with a coach who is now an NFL HC).
February 11th, 2010 at 10:34 AM ^
The only major weaknesses I saw last year were trouble executing the zone read and throwing too many interceptions. Both of these problems are very characteristic of a freshman QB in a spread offense. The belief that experience will not make Tate a better QB is delusional, IMO.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:44 AM ^
Saying that a major weakness of a qb is throwing too many interceptions is like saying a major weakness of a running back is that he runs backwards. Its a big oversimplification. Many things are going on to cause those interceptions, some of which might be Tate's fault and some which might not be.
Since I dont know the answer, I'll take the easy route of throwing the question back to you - why was he throwing too many interceptions?
February 11th, 2010 at 10:48 AM ^
I think it would be fair to say that a major weakness of a running back is fumbling too much which is quite analogous to the QB interceptions.
More to the point, most of those interceptions were due to poor decision making/trying to do too much. Things that are typically reduced in frequency through experience. Exception to the rule: Brett Favre. :)
February 11th, 2010 at 10:53 AM ^
Inexperience at reading college defenses(Like any other freshman QB)
Also...if you don't know the answer as to why he threw so many interceptions, how do you come to the conclusion that he will not improve?
February 11th, 2010 at 11:08 AM ^
First, the reason you gave for interceptions is a major one, but I still think there are more factors influencing interceptions than just that one. E.g., WR routes, accuracy, etc.
Second, I have stated several times in this thread that I think Tate will improve. Take the time to read.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
My bad, I mistook you for the guy named "B"
February 11th, 2010 at 11:28 AM ^
Now I feel like an asshole for being so reactive. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:52 AM ^
Many freshman posters struggle with forming logical arguments and they continue to struggle forming logical arguments throughout their MGoCareers. I don't think you will ever be a great poster (few are).
[edit: that could come across as more dick-ish than I intended. I just don't see where your argument is coming from. I prefer not to count Tate out based on his freshman season and the fact that many other QB's struggle. I also think the "lack of competitive drive" is completely bogus.]
February 11th, 2010 at 10:05 AM ^
Straight bullshit, yo. When Gardner makes all the same mistakes Tate made last year because he is a DAMN FRESHMAN, who will you have left to lose faith in?
February 11th, 2010 at 11:02 AM ^
when freshman football players make "freshman mistakes",
the conventional wisdom is that it's because Rich Rodriguez doesn't know what conference he's in.
February 11th, 2010 at 12:47 PM ^
Well, that probably won't be fixed for Gardner. I think the solution is mandatory eight-hour practices in the summer and ten-hour Sundays in the season. RR needs to get that started up.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:40 AM ^
I'll toss in my opinion on the qb race here, though it is heretical, and will get me negged, but so what. I think Denard will eventually get the start next season. I think Denard will surpass Tate. Denard has a stronger arm, is faster and much more dynamic. He lacks accuracy, which can be taught; he lacks decision-making skills, which will come with experience. Denard has superior gifts, if he can learn the system, the defenses, he will make better decisions, and, given that he improves in accuracy, he will surpass Tate. And let's face it, Tate did not impress in terms of decision-making last year. Denard does not have that far to go to surpass Tate. And I think he will.
As for DG - backup in 2011. RS in 2010. For this year, learning will get us further than replacement will.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:50 AM ^
Just kidding...but not really.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:54 AM ^
Sorry to tell you this, but Denard is all but out of the QB competition. Among other things, he's so far behind Tate on absorbing the zone read scheme that even if Tate took a year off, he'd be hard pressed to catch up.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^
games do not start until September. Robinson was not an early enrolee, Tate was. I am not saying that Robinson will surpass Tate, but to suggest that he has reached his ceiling on learning as a freshman is insulting.
Why can't Robinson (who has not even been on campus a full year) get better at the QB positiion, as nearly every other quarterback in the hisotry of the game has done as they gain experience?
February 11th, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^
I didn't realize you were sitting in on all the practices.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:14 AM ^
if Denard really progressed that quickly, I just don't see it happening. His throwing was sooooooooo bad last year. He does have a stronger arm but it didn't help him when he threw deep anyway. Accuracy can be taught but not fast enough for him to over take Tate. I do expect to see him get plenty of snaps though.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:33 AM ^
Im curious as to why you think Denard will improve so much at decision making, while Tate won't? As Denard progresses in his decision making-skills, wouldnt Tate as well?
February 11th, 2010 at 10:47 AM ^
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Tate gets injured and has to sit a game or two out this year, I believe Denard will become the starter for the rest of the year. He's more physically gifted, he's got a stronger arm, and now he will have a full year of learning/conditioning (did you see the track pics?)/ and executing in practices.
I believe both he and Tate will progress from last year and I believe Tate will get the start against Uconn. But if Denard gets any significant playing time.....
February 11th, 2010 at 12:45 PM ^
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. If Denard Robinson sees the field in 2010 the chances of seeing RR in 2011 are reduced dramatically. PLEASE football GOD'S bring no harm to Forcier, Molk or anyone in our secondary.
(offer the life of a band member as sacrifice)
February 11th, 2010 at 9:50 AM ^
I find it interesting how highly he praises his hands at the line of scrimmage. From every scouting report I've read on the kid, using his hands is what he needs to work on the most. But he seems to think that's one of his best attributes.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^
Im not sure accuracy and decision-making is as teachable as you think. If it was, the best athletes would always be QBs, where they could have the most impact. Starting Denard would significantly hinder our passing game, and we have a lot of playmakers at the WR positions who would be marginalized.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:59 AM ^
Yes, its a huge assumption regarding the teachability of accuracy. I think decision making, however, will come with experience. And you are also right in that who starts is also determined by the playmakers around him. I do think Denard will start, but it's an opinion, and you know what those are like...
February 11th, 2010 at 9:58 AM ^
DG redshirts. this would mean things are going really well. i have said it before though, if hes the best he will play. the union shop that has been UM for years is over.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:45 AM ^
Could you state a specific example or two where the best guy did not play? Are you referring solely to guys redshirting even when they'd be better than the walk-on (for example :)) who was getting playing time?
February 11th, 2010 at 11:22 AM ^
Is that sorta what happened with Turner this past season? He came in late and had a lot of catching up to do, but from what I've heard he may have been a better option than what was on the field by the end of the year.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:57 PM ^
drew henson?
February 11th, 2010 at 10:05 AM ^
I can not belive people have problems with the way Tate played last year. He was a true freshman and he played hurt most of the year. As for the training he has gotten and reaching his full potential thats total BS, thats like saying Lebron James is amazing now he cant learn anything else. When Tate got his training he was a kid/teenager as he grows up he learns new things, better decision making, better understanding of the game, he will adjust to the speed of the game. I dont know if that makes sense or not im just so F pissed off that people dont support Tate and the way he plays.
Ps: Accuracy u either have it or u dont couse if it could be tought that easily than Rick Ankiel is willing to pay millions just to throw a goddamn strike or all the other quarterbacks that have all the tools but the accuracy.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:19 AM ^
Inconsistent much?
You argue that great athletes can learn, grow, improve, but just not in accuracy. Really? Has Lebron's shot not improved since high school?
I agree that all young athletes can improve. And I think most here appreciate how Tate played last year. But we are talking relatively, comparatively in terms of the next couple of years. I for one am not arguing that Tate is not going to improve, I think (not really trying to argue, because who the hell can really say?) that Denard will also improve, and surpass him at some point.