I know that the new tickets policies for football and basketball have been discussed at length here, but this article has been getting a lot publicity today by many Michigan students, especially among basketball season ticket holders. It more eloquently gives the argument as to why the author and many other students (including myself) have sold back our student basketball tickets and how this athletic department continues to erode their image in the eyes of students and future alumni. It's decently long, but worth the read, especially by some of the fan base that are easy to dismiss the students as apathetic.
We Out: A student view of the new ticket policies
53.9% - the average percentage of student who didn't show up for games last year. That's the only number that matters in my opinion. Until students actually show up and create a hostile atmosphere, they need to shut up and quite whining. With pathetic attendance figures like that, no one has the right to complain. End of story.
Students need to ask themselves exactly why the athletic department felt it was perfectly fine to sell 3000 seats to 4500 students.
Because the AD is run by people who don't mind being dicks to increase revenue?
Because students are full of pampered trust fund kids who don't mind throwing away dollars for games that they never intend to attend.
Ok... I know this question is usually frowned upon here, but... did you actually go to Michigan?
'93 Aerospace. I had season tix to basketball all four years. Went to every game except for two, I believe, and drove all day to get to New Orleans for the Final Four. I worked multiple jobs to pay for all that. I was not going to waste it by not going.
I just spent thousands to fly to A2 to watch ND game. I donate to the school regularly and has served in the local alumni club. I will put my loyalty to the school to anybody around here.
I'm not questioning your loyalty, but your apparent disdain for the students. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that the student body is full of spoiled trust fund kids. That hasn't been what I've seen here at all.
Also, please don't conflate loyalty to the athletic program and loyalty to the school.
I have disdain for waste. I cannot even fathom buying the whole season ticket to show up for just a handful of games, which is what the students are doing. I was a starving student, season tickets were extreme luxury, and I was not going to waste it. It ticks me off that so many students have no appreciation.
That seems perfectly reasonable to me. Tickets are expensive, not sure why you'd buy them if you're not going to use them. That's their decision though, and I'm not understanding how we jump from "some students are making poor decisions" to "it's our job to decide what students do with what they've paid for." That's seriously demeaning to me at least, and I'm showing up.
It is not my job, but it is the AD's job and he came up with what I consider a very good compromise.
With this program, if kids don't want to use the tickets, then it is fine, as there are others who will fill the space. The only game affected is the MSU game. And if you are so upset, you can get the single game ticket to guarantee your seat at the game.
You are getting the tickets at greatly reduced price. Why are you bitchin' that discounted tickets come with additional restrictions? If students don't like it, they can buy the regular season tickets at the regular price.
At least from my perspective as a current student, because it comes off as really hostile. It's like the University and its students are viewed as a burden to the AD, who'd much rather operate as an independent corporate entity. When you say things that basically amount to "the AD is doing you a favor by giving you lower prices, stop complaining," I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to view myself in relation to our athletic programs. Is the AD there for its own sake or for the University?
I agree that there are broken lines of communication here. I think the athletic department is not articulating the crux of the issue, which is that the team (whether football or basketball) needs student support to have a good home advantage. It's particulary important for students to be there because it's socially acceptable for students to stand and make a lot of noise, whereas it isn't in the alumni sections. In any college stadium/arena, the students are the key to the homefield/homecourt advantage. I don't think this policy is anywhere near as draconian as people are making it sound, but I don't think it's been sold very well by the AD (which surprises me given Brandon's background).
This is where I disagree with the "It's their ticket and their decision to go" argument. If you buy opera tickets and don't show, the singers probably will sing just as well. But if a lot of people buy tickets to a sporting event and don't show, that can negatively affect the team (not to mention positively affect the other team). You buy a ticket with the implicit understanding that you're going to be there and cheer.
I honestly don't think it's that bad either, I mostly don't like the rhetoric here.
Do you really think these measures are because the AD is worried about homefield advantage, or because they want to maintain appearances?
It's both. When you see Brady Hoke personally investing himself in trying to get the students to come on time, you know it matters to him. It matters to the players as well, as we've heard from them recently.
Uhhh.... he's an AD employee? I remain skeptical.
Do you honestly think that these measures would be taken?
I really doubt it.
The athletics department isn't making enough money of students tickets to care about restructuring something that isn't broken.
If students showed up on time, filled their allotment and cheered hard...this is a non issue. Brandon or the department does nothing.
We all know that wasn't the case...so they took action. Don't bitch, whine and moan over the action that was taken. That's their right...just like it was yours not to show up to games over the past few years.
People always want to whine when consequences and measures are taken in response to THEIR actions.
Um, I have shown up the past few years, thanks.
Also, you have completely missed the point. To an embarrassing extent.
I wasn't referring to you specifically.
I'm sure there are plenty of students that have attended every game/match possible.
This is about students as a whole and not you and your counterparts that are doing the "right" thing.
I have not missed the point whatsoever, this is simply a reaction by the AD to the students not attending games. It's really a simple point.
If the students attended (as a whole), there would be no need for this reaction by the AD.
The reaction may not be right, you may not agree with it, it may be the worst move in the history of decision making...however, it is the students fault that a decision had to be made. Live with it.
The rest of the stadium is filled with golf-clappers and/ or WalMart Wolverines... Oh wait, that doesn't apply to you? Oh well it's all of YOUR actions that deserve 'consequences.'
You're acting like arriving an hour before kick-off is like violating probation.
I'm just posting here to see how skinny this thing gets.
This is called The Thin Zone.
"One thing's for sure. We're all gonna be a lot thinner!"
To the Thin zone!
Does it go to the Phantom Zone?
Otherwise I'm going to post a topic complaining about how hard we worked to make skinny post and now have nothing to show for it
When does it wrap?
not yet...I want to be on the right! I'm not a leftist!
Shut down all the trash compactors on the detention level! SHUT DOWN ALL THE TRASH COMPACTORS ON THE DETENTION LEVEL!!!
I have nothing to add other than I wanted to keep the "zone" alive and satisfy my curiosity
Filling seats is important, in fact the top article on mgoblog right now features an interview with a potential recruit who specifcally says what he likes about Michigan is the huge stadium that they fill every week. No one wants to come play in front of an empty or apathetic crowd.
Coming off a miraculous national title game run, mens basketball creates a lot more of a buzz on campus than in previous years. You have to give the students a shot to come and support a good team, the team had been bad for a long time and average the past few years.
Don't ever let anything divide the fanbase, because that feeds right into to our current Athletic Department's uber-business minded philosophy.
The Michigan basketball team has made the NCAA tourney four out of the past five years. That means they're a good program, not average. If someone considers an NCAA tourney team average, they don't know basketball. Also, if people expect consistent NCAA Final Four runs before they'll start showing up to games, they're a bandwagon fan and they shouldn't get special treatment with regard to tickets.
Making the tournament does not = good program for big-name schools in big-name conferences. It means average. And we weren't even that until 2010. Unless you are a student who showed up and bought tickets when we were mediocre, I don't see how you can be so hostile to the students.
I was a student through the Amaker years and was treated to the likes of Dom "The Bomb" Ingerson. And I still went to all the games.
And I caught the Ellerbe eras where we had to replace 3/4 of the team every year due to attrition. By the time senior yr rolled around the student sections consisted of 1 1/2 section in the lower level and that's it. i never missed a game.
The self entitled generation is really out in force for this one. Show up for your games and then you can complain about the policies.
No sarcasm. My 5 years were all during Ellerbe's time. The student section was far away from the floor (Amaker fixed that, thank god), and the team was horrible. I only went to a few games over that time frame. They were still fun, but those who had season tickets were truly die hards.
In regards to the article, I don't have much to say about basketball, as that is a glass house I can't enter, but the football points were very poor. Complaining about noon starts, plain donuts, and showing up late because he created some of his best memories outside the stadium? This guy does not seem to get it at all. Also, his comma structure is all over the place. I would hope for a better structured argument, as well as, much better grammar from a 5th year Michigan Student.
You don't know what you're talking about. Making the tournament 4 out of 5 years is an average program? Sit down and rest.
As for being hostile to students - I'm a teacher. I'm all about the students. But if my students whined and complained about ticket policy changes after years of under-attendance and providing an anemic homefield advantage, I would tell them the same thing. Sit down and rest. If you don't like it, find another team to support. Enough already.
Unless you are a student who showed up and bought tickets when we were mediocre, I don't see how you can be so hostile to the students.
Many of us were. I had three years of Brian Ellerbe and one year of Tommy Amaker when I was here. I still went to the games. If you are a current student, you are incredibly fortunate to be here with Beilein and the program he's built. Go to as many games as you can.
Whoa, have we already gotten to the point where we're now taking NCAA Tournament appearances for granted? This, after going 11 years (1998-2009) between appearances? For those of us that went to school during the drought (myself included), hearing our name called on Selection Sunday will never, ever get old.
I think most of us can agree that it's not good to have a ton of student ticketholders not showing up. We can debate whether the AD is taking the right measures to solve the problem, but I don't understand how or why people would justify the poor attendance. Our basketball crowds are very front-running, alumni included. I don't think we should make excuses for any of them. It hurts our homecourt advantage when half the people who paid to attend don't show.
when a run in the NIT was as good as it got.
Weird that only 5 years ago, Chrysler was packed just to hear our name called, and now, it is assumed. Strange how fast apathy can grow.
A year ago at this time, we were defending Big Ten champs and had one of the best recruiting classes in the country. We were a preseason top 5 team and started the year 16-0. It was no great mystery that we had a good team on our hands.
What level of success does Michigan need to have before the students care enough to fill up their section?
1 year does not a program make, and using LAST year of all years to display your argument when it is so vastly an anomaly from what our program has been in the past decade is a rather small sample size.
I agree that the section should be full. I'm just saying (in other posts in this thread) that it's not as though non-student fans can really complain when it comes to b-ball attendance.
You can use last years team stats because last year 59% of students didn't show up... Those are connected statistics. You had a top 10 team for the majority of the season and students didn't show up.
Why would you think suddenly they would show considering that you called last years success an anomaly?
Because statistically, relative to the last decade of M b-ball, last year was an anomaly. Though I'd hope we sustain deep tourney success.
EDIT: I see what you're saying after fully re-reading your post, but I just think it takes more than 1 year to have consistency in attendance the way elite programs in CBB do. Furthermore, I haven't been defending a lack of attendance in this thread, but rather pointing out that such complaints after one phenomenal year sound silly coming from a people who would have been sitting in the completely empty Crisler (outside of the Maize Rage) a few years ago.
there, friend. I'm very sympathetic to the students about the way the AD is mishandling the ticket issue, but the team contended for a B1G title the last two years, and were undefeated through 30 games last year. Your argument that the fact that this was unusual somehow justifies students' not coming doesn't pass the smell test.
Not a meme.
Unless "anomaly" becomes a catchphrase 'round these part a la "THE HORROR," "Tacopants," or "Jeremy Gallon's cloaking device/jet boots." I know, I've contributed nothing to the ticket discussion. But a meme is an actual concept now, with an origin in evolutionary biology, of all things. It does mean something.
Yes because the best way to encourage students to show up like you want them to is to treat them like garbage and make fandom, in general, less attractive. Usually attitudes like this are reserved for selling pizzas.
Look, you should look at this way. This scheme relieves the students from the pressure of showing up for every game, while still filling up the student section. That is a win-win in my book. The only price is the access to the MSU game. It seems like a pretty fair trade.
Unless of course all the students ask for other games which is you know always a possibility. What if 3,100 students decide they want to see iowa, what happens then? Honestly its not even so much the policy that gets me but the fact that they changed it after tickets were bought, thats some shady shit.
Sometimes there are other commitments (studying?) that need to be made rather than seeing Michigan wax the floor with SC State, UMass-Lowell, Concordia, Wayne State, Coppin State, Houston Baptist and Holy Cross.
Also, there are some games during the break period when students aren't in town. There's a way to fudge these numbers to justify milking every cent out of the student body.
If you buy a ticket to the game, it's up to the buyer to attend, not the seller.
Okay...and if you think you've got something better to do than go to a game 53.9% of the time, it's up to the seller of the ticket not to sell it to you cheaply in the first place.
The games over break aren't part of the student package, so they shouldn't be factored into that 53.9% figure.
The fact is, last year there were huge swaths of empty seats in the upper deck - student seats - for most home games. MSU, IU and Ohio were about the only times they were full. Don't rationalize it. Buying a season ticket and only going to a handful of games a year is a waste. Don't buy the ticket if it's that hard to go.
Wasn't aware of the break issue, but that still doesn't make it right. I don't believe they have special packages for the students for the major games. It's not like all these games are noon on Saturday. There are midweek night games, many of which against crap teams, that cut into other stuff. When I was a student, it was hard enough to make all the games, much less my other commitments.
Brandon's concerned about getting the arena crowded for two things: 1) sales of concessions, merchandise, etc. and 2) apperances on tv. He could not care less about the individual.
If you are not going to show up for many games, then why are you bitching about overselling seats???
It is not like students seats are priced like regular seats. The only game affected is MSU. If you are so upset, then just buy regular seats to the MSU game and you will still come out well ahead of the regular season tix.
I just don't get all the bitchin...
It is quite easy to understand The athletic office sold student season tickets for the entire package. Well after the deal was made they changed the conditions of the sale.
As far as it not looking good on tv - the parts of Crisler where you could see students was always full. The upper bowl was rarely full. Even non students were shitty fans apparently. Even for a top 10 team.
I wonder how the good 900 seats for students compare to seating for students at other basketball schools?
For those people saying that similar things are being done at other schools I would say not after the sale was made.
Great - we have higher interest from the student body than in a very long time. This must be bad for business because shitting on the students is a great way to kill the momentum.
I would argue that your last paragraph is not only true, but a legitimate aim of the athletic department. Everybody wins when the stadium is full--it looks better on TV and feels more fun in person, which attracts recruits. Also, a full, fun student section is a more fun atmosphere for the students, which encourages better attendance. It's no fun to be a small group all alone for a Wednesday night game against East Nowhere State.
The point everybody seems to be missing is that the policy lets more students attend games! If they could only fit 3,000, in the student section, the adopted policy lets all 1,500 "extra" students a chance to go to probably as many as they can.
I won't argue with your numbers, but students (even when not showing up in full force) have certainly seemed to create a more hostile environment than older, non-student fans. I don't see how the "hostile atmosphere" argument factors in other than to WANT a full student section for a MORE hostile atmosphere.
Nobody in the Big House struck me as particularly "hostile" against Akron, so "creating a hostile atmosphere" is a problem everyone should address, not just students.
Maybe it is the 40% out of state students. Texas has 5% out of state Berkley 10%, why would a bunch of kids from Jersey or Virginia care about UM football when they don't grow up around it? And let's not get going about those international students...it is a joke that UM is still considered a state school.
The rare post that hits the "Why do we have so many out of state students" whine (read: money, higher academic profile, desire) and vague hints at xenophobia. Impressive.
Well aren't you just so much better than the rest of us, so much more tolerant too.
Thanks man, I sure am!
I agree. Let's stop subsidizing these inferior in-state-students so the school can finally reach its potential.
Youuuu suuuuck, youuuu suuuuuuck, youuuuuuu suuuuuuck, youuuuu suck. YOU SUCK!!!
1) We go to the 28th best school in the nation in a depresed economy for college grads where grades are extremely important and going to a freaking basketball game might not be feasible because I need to make sure I handle the thing that is most important to my future success.
2-25) See above, that is every justification that could possibly be needed and the only reason that I missed games (about 10 last year)
Stop blaming students. They have lives and things that need to be done. Also, I agree with the idea that they are legitimately losing their fanbase. I honestly don't want to support this AD anymore and it is honestly making me think about ways to stop. It makes me think about how I could most hurt them because I am so sick of their actions. To even have this idea as a freshman would be ludicrous, but 4 years of constant crotch kicking has changed my ideology. I am about to miss my first game in 4 years due to work and I am coming to terms because I hate this AD so much and probably will not be buying tickets next year.
As to the people who say good riddance, I am not the type of fan you want gone. I have missed 2 quarters in 4.5 years and can count the number of times I have missed the band entering the field.
Whatever maybe Brandon get a corpohumanoid to take my place in the student section to scream out advertisements.
Nice. Sometimes alumni forget what it was like to be a student and what THEY were like when they were 18 to 22 years old. Time management skills in development, drinking was very important, all your friends were in one place before life takes hold and everyone splits up. (sigh)
No, it is because alums REMEMBER what it is like to get the season tickets, and how much of a privilege it was to have them. That is why it is sad to see so many empty seats.
The problem with your view (and those of others here) is that the students have a privilege and need to get over themselves and just be grateful. You ignore the fact that the students do not NEED the athletics, let alone pay increasingly high prices and be treated like bad boys and girls who need to be punished. The University does, always has, and should offer plenty of other activities for students, most of which are more central to the educational experience. Most college students do just fine at schools that have little or no school spirit at athletic events. You want students in the seats? Do what is necessary to encourage them to get there -- more carrots, less stick.
You would think a business guy would get that about customers. However, Brandon's customers are old, wealthy alums -- the same guys who owned the blue seats when I was in college and when the student tickets I bought were relegated to the yellow seats above and away from the court. Crisler was dead then, and it may soon be again.
More to the point, the alums that crowd the Stadium and Crisler used to be students who have fond memories of attending as students. When those alums (like me) are dead or too old to attend, will the current crop of future alums be sufficiently devoted to pay for PSD's and season tickets? I think that is increasingly unlikely.
Forgive me if I randomly picked the previous comment to reply to. This is really in response to many of the other commenters' view that the bad, bad students should just shut up and be grateful.
Here's what I don't understand: why buy the tickets at all if it's apparently such a hardship to go?
It seems that, for whatever reason, students now don't seem to care as much about sports as they once did. Why that is, is a debate in itself, but what makes no sense to me is why someone would pay the hundreds of dollars for the tickets and not use them. If you really don't care, it's a waste for you to buy the tickets when they could be sold to someone who really wants to be there.
It's not that people buy tickets and don't use them, it's that people buy tickets and don't use all of them. I see it like buying one of those big coupon books. You buy the book for the good coupons knowing you won't use all of them. You don't need all of them, but the package is the package. So you use all the ones you want and don't use the ones you don't.
Sure, you get the most benefit by using as many as possible, but for many people, that's just not feasible (or in some cases, desirable). If you told people they needed to use every coupon in the book or you don't get to use the good ones, a lot of poeple just aren't going to buy the book.
Last year, from what I understand, there were several hundred student basketball tickets that were never scanned a single time all season. There were many more that were only scanned a handful of times all season, and we played something like 18 home games. This was pretty easy for me to believe when I heard it, because I definitely remember seeing the upper-deck student seats empty most of the time.
To buy season tickets and only go to a couple games a year is a waste. The AD should not need to use coercive measures to get students to come to games, but apparently it has to. I think that's a shame. I agree that it's not good for there to be a rift between the AD and the students, but this business of not showing up most of the time has to stop.
Who the hell pays money for an entire season of tickets and doesn't go to a single game? I'm truly mystified. How there are students - Michigan students, no less - out there who would make such a poor financial decision to throw money away and not care is crazy, to me. So crazy that I honestly have a hard time believing you.
I know it sounds hard to believe, but I heard this straight from a ticket department employee last year.
pay full price for a season ticket. If they go to all the games, and show up on time, refund 50%. If they dont show up or are late, sux to be them.
We have to give them a financial incentive to go. Then maybe those who only want a few games will not buy a season ticket. This will leave more for the Alums and general public.
Agreed. And move the games to someplace easier to get to. And pay the players. And get them into better uniforms, with non-primary-color colors. And get them a decent name. There is no reason wy the players should have to attend class, either. Let them pay for classes out of their salary.
If the students then want the school to set up a basketbal program just for the students, that should be doable. But, if I were a student, I would be leery about letting anyone else attend those games.
Th s is the stupidest comment I've read in this stream of terrible comments. The students are the only reason we ever have a "home field advantage" in the first place, and treating them like 3rd class citizens is absurd. I missed 1 home game the four years I attended Michigan because I was home for thanksgiving break as a freshman. Since graduating in 2004, I've gone back to as many games as possible, and whenever I go I cheer my ass off, I stand and shout, and the only thing that happens is I get yelled at by other "fans" to sit down and stop making such a ruckus. If the majority of the crowd ACTUALLY cheered the team like true fans, then this wouldn't be a big deal. But it's the students, whether they show up 30 minutes before kickoff or 3 minutes into the first quarter that actually give the stadium life. All Brandon is doing is taking that away.
It probably wasn't the students' money that paid for the tickets.
I would like to personally e-slap each and every one of those students for having their parents pay for season tickets and not using them even once. Must be nice to take money from your parents and throw it in the trash.
Not sure the analogy fits. For one, the more you use the coupon book, the more money you spend. If I have a ticket, I have it in hand and don't have to spend extra money. Not using a coupon is an entirely different calculus. For another thing, different things in the coupon book appeal to different people. Each game in the season ticket package has roughly the same appeal to everyone, and therefore, there's a need to create extra incentive for the less desirable ones.
Finally, the main difference: you buy a ticket and don't use it, you're hurting someone who might've wanted to go but can't.
Maybe this analogy would be better for you. You rent a hours and sign a lease for a whole year. After you sign the lease the renter comes to you with a new lease and says" statistics show that people vacation one month a year, because of this we have sold the rights to your house for a one month period. Don't question me - its for the best."
Guaranteed that at some point in your transaction with the athletic department you entered into a contractual agreement... a contractual agreement that certainly in the fine print allowed for exactly this action.
That is generally how contracts with folks with lawyers on retainer works.
Even without the fine print, the offered refund should give them an out. By not taking the refund, you implicitly accept the terms of the new contract. At least that's what I think the proper legal explanation would be.
The legal issue here- A ticket is a license. As long as the fine print or terms & conditions said availability and conditions subject to change, then yes. In a legal sense, it is the AD's right to change the terms. Your version of how things work, not as much.
And jumping into this debate (no one cares, I know):
Saying things like "students don't need athletics" (not above poster, just read earlier) underlines the absurdity of your argument. THE STUDENTS ARE THE ATHLETES. They play for the university, i.e., its faculty and STUDENTS. Students get discounted tickets, sure. That kind of benefit is probably more of a concession to the reality that students aren't as wealthy as alumni and the students are paying members of the University the sports teams are composed of and representing (yes I know tuition doesn't go to the AD).
And when I was there, '07-'11, I saw both entirely empty and jam-packed Crisler. The thing is, since the student section is relatively small, many students that cannot get there early enough get annoyed/discouraged knowing they're relegated to the upper portion of the arena. If the environment and cheering is a substantial portion of the fun, then, it stands to reason that sitting with 3 other friends in the upper deck will not be enjoyable, yes?
Also, please keep in mind that MGoBlog is an exceptional community in its devout fanatacism (I am included here; that was not pejorative). For students that think they might want to go to a bunch of games, especially the big ones, the retail for those tix will probably begin approaching the season ticket price. Why buy a few retail when you can have tickets for all of the games and pick which ones you can/want to attend?
Also, I distinctly recall having classes that went late enough to pose a problem for getting to Crisler practically (and having a chance at a decent seat).
I'd probably stop shit-talking everyone from out of state, though. There's no reason for it and y'all look petty as hell. There is merit to remembering that someone making the choice to pay around $50k/year to go to Michigan actually cares about it.
So this should be the students first great life lesson in the reality of the hard nosed world of business. Read the fine print you bunch of 18-22 year olds who are trying to have a little fun while they attend school!
I don't doubt that there is some lawyer bullshit fine print in there somewhere. That's what we want - the university of Michigan relying on legalese bullshit rather than doing the right thing. Why would anyone expect to buy season tickets and get season tickets?
Lawyer responses crack me up. Just because it is legal to screw people over does not mean it's right to screw people over.
"Just because it is legal to screw people over does not mean it's right to screw people over."
I agree - but you'd better get used to it, because that is how life works.
In football with an OSU or MSU season, those tickets in student section can reach easily +$200 in the open market, but if you buy season tickets, you get face value, for the price of $300 and you get to see a couple of extra Big Ten games, and ND, and you don't have to run around the Big House before the game. So, in practice, skipping the few Akrons that roll to town is not a loss. Some here will crucify me but I gave away my student tickets to one of these bad games because I rather spend my time in lab than watching Michigan beat some team by 40 points. If the AD had an option to sell individual student tickets early in the season at face value (or at face value + 40% convenience fee), I'd take that. I also had friends that did the opposite: bought season tickets and sold the OSU and ND to cover for all the other games.
My time in Ann Arbor never included Crisler tickets being hard to get, but I can imagine that the recent success drove the price up and messed with the student incentives. The new AD policy is actually very effective at targeting people with my behavior. Well, you want to see Sparty lose at Crisler, you'll have to watch us clobber Eastern as well. It feels a bit like being a hostage, can't have pudding if you don't eat your meat. But I actually like meat, so it's ok.
I think the "debate" is the heart of the matter and it should be had. I will start to sound like a broken record on this blog, but if you look at the 20 year trend, almost everything that has happened in college athletics has been an effort to move it from collegiate sport and make it an entity independent of the universities and colleges. The pro's and con"s list of the "corporatization" of college sports vs. the student enjoyment of college sports would so tip the scales of justice it is an embarrassment.
Future ticket holders who can't even be bothered to show up when they're a student? I'm guessing they probably weren't getting tickets if they didn't bother to show when life was easy.
And to add to his point alumni remember balancing their schedule, studying, and drinking a lot, and still managing to show up for games.
Not to mention, wives who aren't alumni - who you have to negotiate with to fly across the country, rent a car, get a hotel room, arrange child care for your young children etc., and then have to reciprocate with games at their alma mater.
Students will never have it easier unless they plan to live in Ann Arbor for the rest of their lives.
When the teams are that bad, even alumni don't want to go back for games.
Brandon has something students want: tix for the bb team's game vs MSU.
He's using that as both carrot and stick: wanna go to the MSU game? Better show up to every other game you commit to, or no Sparty for you.
Frankly, it's long overdue.
I'll admit I was hoops-privileged: I was in school the same years as the Fab Five; still, I pretty religiously used my BB tix.
Are you serious? Crisler has been empty since the fab five and was empty before that too. The alumni spent a decade and a half not showing up and the AD never set up a policy that did not gaurantee them the tickets they pay for. Why didn't the AD institute general admission for those seats that are always empty at tip across the court from the student section, because that was at least half the basketball games last year.
I haven't forgotten at all what it was like to be a student. I had season tickets to both football and basketball all four years, and never missed a game. And we had fucking Brian Ellerbe as our coach during most of my time. If I could make it to see us get killed in half our games, you can find a way to see John Beilein's top 10 team in action. And yes, you can do that and still have fun, and still graduate.
Just about every person reading this blog, who were students at one point in time, has the same enthusiasm for Michigan sports. Every sport has a core group that attends every single game so congrats to you for going to all the basketball games. If you are telling us that the student section was packed for every game on the home schedule when you were a student I call BS.
The qualm I have with the AD isn't necessarily the overselling of student tickets it's the fact that they tricked and mislead students to believe they were buying one thing but then swapping it out with a whole new product mere weeks before tip off. That is stealing. If this policy was disclosed during the spring and summer months when students were signing up for tickets I'd be fine with the policy. Dropping this on the students during classes is just wrong.
Both sides have serious work to do.
Stop playing this moronic blame game, get movers and shakers from both parties together, and figure this shit out, instead of embarrassing the rest of us.
Ah yes the "there are starving kids overseas so eat the rest of your leftovers" argument.
All you adults did a great job of driving across the state of MI to attend bball games before we were a top ten team. All like, 100 of you that ever cared to come.
This post will anger you because of the tone. Thus now you know why much of what is posted here angers students -- simply tone. Though many have been frustrated by attendance figures for awhile, so I understand THEIR exasperation.
"I am being provided with an inferior product half the season. Now due to television, money and other factors, the scheduling in college football has gone to crap. In the Bo Schembechler days, Michigan played titans of college football like UCLA, Washington, Miami and Notre Dame in non-conference games. "
Maybe this changes some with the expansion to a nine-game conference shedule, and by that, I mean that perhaps they get more selective about who the OOC opponents will be in time. The general downward trend in overall quality was probably magnified by this past Saturday's slate of games, but I would think that it might take a lot to disincentivize these.
Attended every game from beginning to end. Rain or shine. Cold or hot and everything in between. Hung over!? no excuse
I'm clearly more on your side, OP, but are you actually a student?
"apethetic" I know it's one letter off, but it just looks so obviously wrong - apathetic
Yeah, I'm with the students on this one. Not everyone is a die-hard fan who is going to go watch South Carolina Central on a Tuesday night, so those attendance numbers are skewed. I sure as hell never went to those games, in fact I'm not sure I went to a non-conference game the whole time I was in college.
All of these changes are great if you're the super fan whose life revolves around the sport. But the average fan is still a fan, right?
Agreed. A lot of the bashing of the students is equivalent to the stalker girl with the crazy eyes making the "just love me because I need you to love me" argument. If you want to attract people you actually have to attract them. You can't just compel or guilt them.
But the "average fan" can still be a fan from somewhere way up in the stands. You still get to go to all the good games and show up late to the crappy ones, you just don't get Section 25 Row 5.
Where's the horrendous injustice?
But you don't get to go to all the good games. You don't get to go to MSU and possibly other games where more than 3000 students want to go.
Recent grad here so I tend so side more with the students. I agree that the athletic department is not treating the students very well. I don't think they're treating them unfairly but they're definitely not treating them well when they should be the first class citizens in the realm of Michigan athletics.
That said, this blog post is so awfully written that it really detracts from the point being made. As unfair as it may be, when you don't write like a Michigan student no one is going to take you seriously as one. I would hope the student body could come up with a little more well-written response than this.
This. I'm an "old alum" that actually happens to be on the students' side for the most part, but this blog post actually decreases my sympathy. The worst part was complaining about the FREE donuts that Hoke PERSONALLY DELIVERED. Entitled much?
Even if I was willing to consider the guy's argument, he lost me with the whining about the free donuts.
But seriously, complete lack of sympathy to the current students on all of their petulant whining. I attended every game as a student, was there early, and stayed until it was over. And found a bunch of friends who felt exactly the same way I did.
And when one of our friends left one game early in 4 years as a student, it was later commemorated for all eternity with a "gift" of a stadium brick listing the date, opponent and the inscription noting that he left the game early.
You know what I don't like? The "I went to every single solitary game so everyone else should too" argument. Not every can go, or wants to go to every basketball game. And that's OK. Football is one thing - they are all on the same day of the week (which is a weekend), there are only 6-8 of them all year and they all matter a lot.
Students have stuff going on during the week. I remember having basketball tickets only to find out about a lab I had to make up that evening so I didn't go. It wasn't a big game, but it wouldn't have mattered. I remember other games that I skipped because I just had too much studying to do. I usually had the game on in the background, but just the time I saved by not walking to Crisler and back allowed me to get my work done.
And you just can't expect Michigan students to be as passionate about basketball as they are about football. It's just different. I love MIchigan basketball. But it's not football.
My point is that not every student is the "I went to all the games every year from start to finish" kid, and if you only want those kids to come to the games - you'll have a lot of crowds like we had in 2004 or whatever.
If you don't want to then you don't have to. No one is forcing you to. However, if you want the best tickets then you'll have to step up. Either step up or quit complaining.
Well I live in Los Angeles so I won't be going to any of them. But it seems silly that if you want to go to the best games, you have to go to all of them. If I was still a student, I would have said, "Fine, then I won't go to any of them." Which is not what the AD wants, I would imagine.
No, the better solution is for AD is to say "fine, you don't have to show up for every game. But we are going to oversell the tix so that the student section is still full." I still don't understand what the problem is.
The problem is some kids will pay for season tickets and no be allowed in for MSU. That's a pretty big problem.
First, at most that is going to affect only 1500 students. Second, theses are the people who are least loyal. Third, they can still go buy regular tix for the MSU game. Even paying for the regular price you are still going to come out ahead compared to the regular season tix price.
so you're just completely fine with the the athletic department stealing?
I have no idea when people are talking about "stealing". How could it be "stealing" when you could get a FULL REFUND if you are not happy with the deal? How could it be "stealing" when you could turn around and get a regular season ticket that guarantees you a seat no matter what?
If you do not like the deal, then get the full season tickets at the regular price.
If you want the HEAVILY discounted student tickets, then you are going to have to go along with it.
"I am going to rob your bank. If you catch me at it, I will give a FULL REFUND, so don't call what I do 'stealing.'" Gotcha.
1500 students is 1/3 of the number of people who bought tickets. That's not a small number. And why in the world should they have to buy regular tickets for a game for which they have already purchased a ticket?
Compared to over 50% of the kids who don't show up on most games, 1500 is a smaller number.
They are purchasing HEAVILY discounted tickets that come with certain restrictions. If you do not like the restrictions, you can buy guaranteed season tickets at the regular price.
You have a choice. Which one you choose is completely up to you.
They weren't sold with restrictions. The restrictions came after the sale
Heavily discounted ? The average student is buying a $30,000 licensing fee for the privilege of purchasing "discounted " tickets. Lets not forget that college athletics exist because it is a school with students. Become a pistons fan if the "discounted" student tickets piss you off.
The problem is some kids will pay for season tickets and no be allowed in for MSU. That's a pretty big problem.
I don't see that as a problem. Way fewer than 3,000 students will show up for many of the other games, and the ones that do will be the ones who get to see MSU. The ones who aren't allowed in for MSU are the ones who didn't go to any other games and bought season tickets just so they could see the glamor games.
If all you (generic "you") want to see is MSU, and you buy season tickets just for that game, and get locked out because you didn't go to the others, just buy a regular ticket for that game, it'll be cheaper.
Are you thinking that the lower students seats aren't full for all the games? Because that impression is wrong. The empty seats (and there are a lot of them) in the lower area that would look bad are on the non-student seats. We should probably allow students to occupy these seats if they aren't full after 5 min of game time and then make the skippers forfeit their right to the bigger games.
You need to go to the games you commit to attending, in order to have a claim on an MSU ticket.
Point of clarity - the best student seats are always full. The upper overflow seats are just as empty as the general admission upper seats. Also - not all of the lower "high price" seats bought by alumni/older fans are full for mid-week crap games. Where is the outcry to oversell these tickets?
Not true for others. I was at Arkansas on a SATURDAY in the upper deck a couple of sections over and it was full. The student section up top was empty. The only empty section.
tix. Students who had been season ticket holders for 4 years had full season. Those of us who had applied within the past two years split the season with another student. It was perfect- except back then students were jammed in the upper bowl. Students today would die if they had to sit where we did. No students in lower bowl at all!!!
Oh the basketball team isn't worth watching? Good thing you sold back. Those national championship games are a real bore right
Yep a preseason top 5 team that went to the NCAA tournament last year and has an amazing recruiting class has NO chance to be in the title game. In fact, they will be terrible so why should I go see them play?
You didn't make it very well.
as an outside bystander for this little slap fight, I am waiting for you to post a fact and not thinly veiled subjective opinions
They've only had one good season in recent years? So are we only counting seasons that they make it to the title game good? WE ARE BACK!!!!!
That's actually not true...in this particular thread, you haven't given very many facts at all. You've simply reiterated your opinion (about fifteen different ways) that the team has been bad, thus the students are right not to show up. You would have gone miles farther in my mind had you not called last year's product unworthy of watching (which you were guilty of by not specifying that you were referring to teams five years ago). Besides all the preseason accolades, that team was simply damn fun to watch. In fact, national pundits raved about the quality of basketball on the floor in the national championship game, and that was the same team we saw on the court all season save for a short stretch at the end of the season. You are going to come back and say "but students couldn't have predicted that" but that's not the point.....we're talking about students with season tickets in hand last year that didn't show up, not those that chose not to buy them. Those students saw the most entertaining team in the country and still decided not to show up.
Now all that said....I happen to be on the side of students in general. What would make me livid if I were a student is that the rules changed AFTER most had bought their tickets (in a similar vein, I think they should have staged in GA for football over four years so that nobody had to forfeit any seniority they earned under prior rules). Going forward, the system is what it is and students should have the ability to choose to buy or not buy....but the AD has done them wrong for the way in which they're going about this, and it's going to come home to roost with a "lost generation" of alums if they're not careful.
What you said was
You know what else you had in 1993? A basketball team worth watching.
And what I said was, by not specifying, you were lumping all the teams together. I think the vast response to your message is proof that you did not make your point well, which is how I entered this discussion.
Always humurous when someone doesn't realize that they're the jackass in the room.
Thanks for the laugh.
My point is that people who grew up watching awful teams in a terrible arena and then witnessed the worst sanctions ever may not have much interest in basketball when they grow up.
If you're right, and there isn't that much interest in basketball, then the new system won't be a problem.
20+ win seasons in 4 of the last 5 years. They're the ones who can buy tickets.
If you don't like it don't go. I graduated last year and I have no problem with this policy. The department rewards those who are fans for every game not just the important games. You have some people pissed but I promise you a few upset students won't hurt them.
Where are those fans coming from?
Seriously? The rest of Crisler isn't more than half full for those filler games either.
I understand that now they can sell those tickets and make more money, but the point has been made above that you can build a relationship with future alumni, and in the lean years you can expect a more faithful fan base.
Get over yourself! "I had to pay full price to see Inferior opponents. Back when Bo coached ..." Ugh! Bo would have told you to grow a pair. We have scheduled cupcakes for as long as we have scheduled. "Why do I have to pay for improvements to facilities that I won't use?" Because that is how it works. As an institution we build on the shoulders of giants and to future students you are one of those giants.
These are the momentous issues of injustice that occupy students now? Maybe they should stage a sit in. But don't sit too close to Jay ... Smells like vinegar.
Edit: And what are the "upper annals" of the stadium?
"why should I have to pay for improvements I won't even get to use!!?"
Holy shit is that a egocentric statement and completely ignorant of how greatness (or even simply sustainability) is achieved.
I'll just take my 7 years of tuition back then, along with everyone who came before that yutz, and he can have his own private Michigan of Jay financed exclusively by his payments to the university.
If you don't like the prices, ticket policies, or the experience of going to a game, then don't go.
If enough people stop buying tickets, the prices will go down.
This isn't about whether or not we have a good team. We've established the team is good and people want to see them play. It's about not showing up to cupcake games.
Then why did they buy the tickets?
As in football, the question isn't "Why aren't students buying tickets?" but "Why do they buy tickets and then not show up?"
I might believe that if the same thing weren't also going on in football - and we weren't bad very long in that sport, just three years. It seems that Michigan students now just aren't as into sports in general as they used to be.
Crisler was never that bad. I've gone to games there for a long time. It used to have dingy concourses and old, dirty seats, yes, but it wasn't a bad place to actually watch a game. It always had good sightlines and there were never any true nosebleed seats - its capacity was never more than 13,700. Having grown up watching the Pistons play at the Silverdome and then the Palace (22,000), I always thought Crisler was okay.
I guess you've never been to northwestern.
"Oh and let's not forget witnessing the largest scandal in the history of NCAA sports."
Memphis w/ Derrick Rose
Charley Pell at Florida
Miami Football loses 31 scholarships in 94
Barry Switzer at Oklahoma
Minnesota Basketball in the mid 90's
O.J. Mayo at USC
Reggie Bush at USC
Ed Martin with Michigan
Those first seven are all much worse than the last two. Want to know why? Because it directly involved the school/athletic department being complicit in the violations. So no, Michigan basketball was not at all involved in the "largest scandal in the history of NCAA sports".
You can't honestly believe that what Ed Martin and 3 players did compares to SMU getting the death penalty, or even Miami losing 31 scholarships. There simply is NO comparison between the two. At this point, you've been shot down on every argument you've made in this thread, and now you are simply arguing to argue.
But I tell you what. If you can get two people on this blog to agree with you that the Ed Martin thing was worse than SMU or Miami, we'll all start agreeing with you. If you can't, you have to stop posting for 48 hours and cool off.
While it didn't kill interest, that shouldn't matter to the present-day team. Since Beilein has taken over, it has been completely different. And as someone who grew up watching the Fab 5 and the subsequent teams, I can tell you that the interest was never killed. Those post-F5 teams were still really good. They constantly under-achieved, but they were very talented. It wasn't until Amaker got to campus that the team bottomed out. That was a brief enough period that it would have only had the same affect that the late Carr and RR teams did for the football program.
Pathetic argument. The question isn't why no one is buying tickets but why 50% of student tickets are unused. If they were raised Michigan fans and grew up with such pathetic teams why would they buy tickets in the first place?
This years seniors, their entire college career have experienced successful basketball teams that were fun to watch. Freshman year, we destroyed Tennessee in the first round of the tourney before losing at the buzzer to duke. Morris returned for their sophomore year and we won a share of the big ten title before losing again in the second round of the tourney. Obv we all remember what happened this year. Excuse me if I don't have much sympathy for no shows.
I'm in my first year of a Masters program at UofM, and this sentiment about the athletic department is not just shared amongst drunk undergrads.
Also, the "whiny entitled student" argument is really starting to piss me off. Of course students feel entitled! Many students devote everything to getting into and paying for this school, and it would be nice to not get raked over the coals by Dave Brandon.
Additionally, while I am at every game as early as possible, showing up a little late is not that unreasonable considering the circumstances. The Athletic Department frankly doesn't give a shit about the students unless there's an opportunity to make money, so why not spend some time with friends and people that actually care about you? Sure, even for the average fan, some of the classic games they've witnessed at Michigan Stadium will be cemented in their memories forever, but I can guarantee Joe Blow will never forget wandering the streets of Ann Arbor with his best friends. Damn him if he misses 5 minutes against Akron.
Unfortunately, I can just post here and swallow my frustration because I care too much about these teams, and this school really means a lot to me. However, I wish there was even the slightest recognition by the Athletic Department, that despite whatever percentage numbers are thrown around, we still, undoubtedly, have some of the most outstanding student support out of any program in the country.
Finally--> Crisler's renovation is absolutely stunning, and it was a mindblowing transformation. On the other hand, the student section design is horrible. I really don't see how that can be argued.
But we just don't get the numbers for it for weaker games, thus everyone loses.
Under 400 people get into the bleachers. That creates a pretty weak home court advantage.
Students didn't show THEN the athletic department stopped giving a shit about them, not the other way around.
And while you'll certainly remember times with your friends, times drinking at tailgates aren't really that memorable, and you'll remember games far more.
Both sides have problems. However, the real problem with what the Athletic deparment is doing is creating a divide among the students and the athletics(You will not find many students who like the new system, I'm not sure I've talked to 1 student yet who does). I'm not saying nothing needed to be done, but what they did for football wasn't good.
Ok, first: I am a Michigan student, a 5th year senior who has loved M since I cared enough about any sport to root for anyone.
I am ONLY defending students when it comes to basketball, not football, because in terms of the football whining, I don't think students have a strong argument. I wish we could play better/more interesting opponents, but alas. Wanting to tailgate for 20-40 more minutes and thus causing this uproar does not seem worth it to me, though I can understand how people want to build their memories (after hours of drinking on gameday...) and stuff.
I'm here to defend M's students when it comes to basketball, though. I went to every damn game during our 15-17 season which ended in (more) heartbreak due to Evan Turner in Indianapolis, which I also attended. I have had season tickets every year I've been here, and missed only 3 non-break games. Why some of you are angry with Michigan students' basketball attendance is beyond me.
During 2009, especially, the student bleachers were the ONLY area of Crisler packed with fans and for no less than 2/3 the games that year, we were the majority of the fans in attendance. So all this criticizing about students "not showing up" for basketball kind of make me angry, because when our basketball team was mediocre, you adult-folk were NOT there, like at all, not at tipoff, not at halftime. We were the ones (the Maize Rage and a small periphery of other interested game-goers) who populated Crisler, and the only ones at that. Complain about attendance if you'd like, but the interest in M bball just was not there and it's hard for me to forget how little actual, physical support (as in showing up) there was by non-student fans.
I would generally approve of the new b-ball policy, except that now you have a large group of students who have shelled out money, significant money (to us), for tickets they are no longer guaranteed. It's a bit of a messy bail-out system that is the product of inherently trying to oversell to increase attendance. I get it. But to bash M's students and argue that somehow our attendance for basketball sucks, please stop.
To the dude who argued that making the NCAA tournament is better than average...no, it's not. For what should be a power program (albeit just coming off sanctions), making the tournament is average. What isn't average is making the tournament RELATIVE to many years before of not making it.
PS - re: student attendance: it would be nice to read something constructive and not critical on here on the subject for once. We're Michigan, and we're better than this petty arguing between adult fans and student fans. I hope this is a rift that closes quickly and also that the growing rift between alumni and the athletic department closes quickly, because much of the camaraderie that makes being a M fan great seems to be disappearing.
of course, the anti-student crowd totally ignores this comment.
I graduated after fall of 2011, and alabama A&M was my final game in Crisler Arena.
I went to all non-conference games up to AL A&M then I graduated and left the state.
I would say the alumni/fan attendance for games like western illlinois or arkansas pine bluff were just as bad.
For those games, i bet they still count the paid tickets as attendance, but I would guarantee you, the % of students showing up to those games in 2011 (and i bet it's the same from 2008-2010) is higher than the % of non-student who actually showed up.
And least for that half of the season, I spent most of the time at the very top rows (and they wonder why students aren't interested in going to watch a game against Arkansas Pine Bluff once they couldn't get into the Maize Rage bleachers. ) So the lower bowl for students is constantly filled to capacity. The cameras will only show the student section angle for those games too, with the alumni/fan section empty like football against Akron 2013.
I was combing through this thread wanting a better articulated piece from the student point of view. (The OP's blog post seemed way too whiny and this is coming from a constituent fan directly affected by the new student policy.[grad school student] )
I would like to just concur with you sir.
20-40 minutes your kidding me your talking multiple hours if you want decent seats general admission while lead to general apathy from the students both now and not long term.
I bet you guys also walked uphill both ways on your walk to Michigan Stadium and Crisler Arena for every single game, never missing one.
In regards to football, I know the athletic department has been a mess lately and I sympathize with the raising of ticket prices. But some of those points brought up are pure crap.
1. In regards to last year's Northwestern game, don't tell me that going to the game on time was going to prevent you from a lifetime of memories and meeting new friends. Do you not realize how stupid that sounds? You're on campus 8 months of the year. You can get memories and new friends the other 234 days you're around each other.
2. I know this sounds shocking, but you can also tailgate AFTER the game. That's what all the alumni do. Is there some rule against getting wasted at 3:30 p.m.?
3. You can recite the crumby non-conference schedules of the last several years all you want. The opponent is not worth your money. But 2 years ago, I was at the Minnesota and Purdue games, both of which had half empty student sections. Maybe those squads weren't ranked in the top ten BUT they were B1G games. And we were in title contention in our division when those games were played, right up until we got screwed by two horrible calls in Iowa City. So let's not make it seem like this is a non-conference problem. It seems if it's not a rival, you're not interested. And not even a ranked opponent, like Nebraska was in 2011, was good enough for you to get there on time because of the noon start. That's just sad.
Dave Brandon has done a ton of things that have pissed me off. But the students have done the same and many of their arguments, even after the questionable moves by the athletic department, are pretty damn weak.
WH - while this is slightly off-topic, why did you stop posting game highlights for games this year? It seemed like last year they were up within a few hours of game's end. Have more copyrighting issues arisen? (I believe you mentioned that having been an issue years back when you switched from dynoguy to WH, sorry for creepin', I've just always been a fan of your work)
T3Media went on a blocking spree because of copyrighted material. They told me I would be O.K. if I shortened highlight videos from my usual 20 minutes to about 8-9 minutes. I did that, and they STILL blocked the videos.
The only vids that don't get blocked now seem to be player tributes and fluff pieces like the Keith Jackson piece since they feature clips from multiple games.
Thanks for the support anyway. I'm surprised you remember the dynoguy account.
My question is what is the no show percentage for non-student season ticket holders. When I was a student a couple years ago, for the bad games the student section was the only one filled up with empty seats in droves in all other sections. I would love to see a perentage for the non-student ticket holder and see if it is any better. I would love to see the response if this policy was inacted for everyone.
That for the OSU game, there were a lot of patchy empty seats in the lower bowl across from the student section. Most other big games were pretty full, but there were still noticeable no shows for them.
The rest of the games there were also a lot of empty seats, despite all the sellout claims.
I would give the non-student section areas of Crisler a 25-35% attendance rate for most average games in 2009, and probably only slightly better in 2010. Below average matchups basically meant crickets in the entire top bowl of Crisler and a smattering of random fans in the lower bowl.
One year, we played Concordia and they took up an entire upper bowl section and made more noise than everyone else in Crisler combined.
I agree with the author here for two reasons: (1) As the Akron picture of the student section shows: If GA was intended to get students to show up early/on time to non-marquee games, it has failed miserably. [Caveats of small sample size of course apply.]
And (2) I think these sentences really hit home:
"My biggest issue is these two policies were launched with no warning and no input from the student body. No transition period, nothing, just a flat out rule change, take it or leave it. ... I cannot wait to get out of Ann Arbor and not donate to this cash hungry school for a long time. David Brandon and Hunter Lochmann, whether they like it or not, are antagonizing and alienating the student body. With how I feel I have been treated, do they expect me to send my kids here in 20-30 years and buy season tickets for them? This is not how you groom future alumni as beneficiaries, this is how you make money now and lose money in the long term."
I think this hits it dead on. For all the "these students are whiners, "Bo would have said to deal with it," "I showed up on time in the snow with no shoes just to see them practice," and other BS from unsympathetic alumni/posters here, this argument still carries weight regardless of your crotchety perspective. The students ARE the future alumni who are depended on to support the program, and if they feel mistreated, they will not donate. I know I won't donate to this administration, and I graduated years before GA. When the department clearly cares so much about the bottom line and so obviously doesn't care about the students, it slowly bleeds the heart of what makes Michigan special. It's not [supposed to be] a business like the Lions that milks every dollar it can- it's a school you love and cheer for because you're a PART of it. But with the students being treated simply like flyby ticket buyers, instead of an active part of the University and program itself, it kills that. Sure, showing up late looks really bad, and skipping out on games entirely is even worse. But that doesn't justify cutting them out of the conversation completely, because without the students, it's just a sport of unpaid minor leaguers. And that's not Michigan.
Nitpick the author all you like for his errors and unfortunate side complaints (like about the donuts), but he's onto something. This athletic department is in trouble, in the long run, if they don't turn this ship around and start to appreciate the students. Otherwise, we'll not only lose our attendance streak, but we may also lose what makes Michigan so great: the sense of family I and other alumni, who graduated before this corporatization really took hold, feel about this great school. I don't want to see that happen, but I think we're headed down that road.
Anyway, regardless of whether you agree with me, if you made it this far, thanks for hearing my two cents.
Amen. I am also of the mind that I will not donate to this administration, specifically as long as Hunter Lochmann is still part of the athletic department.
I recommend that you donate instead to a non-rival athletic department, and make sure this AD/Victors Club knows about it. When they see dollars that could be going to them, go elsewhere, they'll realize that they're doing something wrong. (Personally I donate to South Carolina for no reason.)
I don't donate to Brandon or Lochmann. I donate to Michigan Athletics and the University of Michigan, the students and student-athletes who go there. Whatever you have taken so personally, was not directed at you personally. You either support your alma mater or not and that is your choice.
With time, success and reflection you may change your mind and stop asking what the University can do for you but rather what you can do for the University. (And seriously, the Gamecocks?)
I wish I could donate to the student athletes, and support them, but every dollar I donate to them goes to show Dave Brandon and Hunter Lochmann that what they are doing is working. The only way to protest their actions is to not donate. Words do not matter to them, as long as the bottom line is looking good that is all they care about.
And you've hit it dead on, I've taken this very personally. This stems back to when they took hockey students to general admission a year ago. They took away my 8 years of priority seating, and put us all in the same bin. How would season football ticket holders feel if all of a sudden the seats you've had for years were just randomly redistributed (yes I know it's GA and not random)? I was in fact able to get Red on my side, and he asked the ticket office to help me out, but Hunter denied this request. If I was a high level donor, my request would've been fulfilled, but as a student I was ignored. It doesn't matter that I was a handful of students to be in Albany and St Louis, loyalty doesn't matter to them. And thus, loyalty when it comes to the athletic department does not matter to me.
P.S. Red is a great man.
If students want to throw a tantrum about increased cost (still way below normal ticket prices), then continue to reduce the number of student tickets available. Non-students still show up in droves and on time. Your job as a student with season football ticket is to go to games and cheer on your school, if you don't want to do that, then don't buy tickets. That article is, frankly, ridiculous.
Well, my post was clearly about football. But if you want to bring basketball into the mix, I have season basketball tickets and from the WMU game onward, Crisler had an excellent attendance rate. Once the team proved they were for real, sell-outs were common. They are going to be even more common this year.
Also, at least adults with jobs and kids have a reason not to show up to Concordia - although that still doesn't entirely excuse no-shows. The students live on campus and rarely have class at 7pm. You can always find a 3 hour break twice a week in your studies. Its a 5 minute bus ride to get to Crisler, or a 15-20 minute walk. Some normal season ticket holders have a 45+ minute drive into Ann Arbor.
Simply put, there is no excuse for buying season tickets and then not showing up. If you don't like the policy and want to hang out outside the stadium during games, don't buy tickets. The most sensible approach involves selling season tickets to as many students who request them, and eliminating the right to buy tickets for those students who don't show up for at least 6/7 home football games or 80+% of basketball games.
Some people need to work to be able to afford luxuries. My parents didn't pay got anything. I paid my way through scholarships, working, and loans. Sorry Concordia on a Tuesday wasn't a priority for me. If I wasn't working, I'd have been studying with the game on mute in the back.
As a high school teacher, I am very tuned to pick up whining. The blog post was whining when it was referencing the football ticket policies. I have zero sympathy for students when it comes to football. You pay less than 50% of what I do for my tickets in the boring alumni sections. Don't give me the tuition argument. I just started paying for my student loans. You can't make it on time because you want to get wasted with Pat Stansik. Put down the booze and walk down Hoover to Kipke and make it on time. I made it to every single game at least one hour before kick off and I was still wasted most of the time. It can be done. Where is the damn effort?
When it comes to the basketball policy. Students have a legit beef. I GSI'ed for chem 130 and 125. I know we typically schedule midterms on weekday game nights. I feel for you if you are pre-med in chem130. We didn't intentionally schedule them on game nights, it is just the way it works out with room scheduling and the curriculum.
Marty Bodnar, the previous head of ticketing, for all of his bone headed decisions during his tenure, at least listened to student feedback. I served on the Rackham student government to improve collaboration between students and the athletic department. I really feel for student basketball fans. You guys got hosed.
Hey. Keep in mind that "at least one hour before kickoff" would be late for ND (and I'm anticipating for Neb and OSU) this year depending on what seats you're expecting/ wanting.
"Where is the damn effort."
Just curious, why do you think attending a recreational event should require effort?
walking your ass down kipke is not that much effort. I have bowel movements that take more effort.
Yes, it does when I look across to old section (28) from section 41 in the same row I sat in my last year at Michigan and seeing the top half completely empty because some undergrads couldn't put down their solo cups.
No, it isn't. But that's not exactly all that's involved.
For example, I'm not in a frat, but I'd imagine it could get difficult dealing with gameday logistics under GA for big groups like that.
For an example that does apply to me, instead of arriving an hour early like I did every year prior to this, I now have to play roulette with a few thousand other students in order to get into my preferred spot in section 26 or 27, row 50-70 or so.
I'm not about to write some overly dramatic manifesto like the linked guy did, but it does seem a bit unnecessary to me.
seriously, all I hear are excuses.
And that's why we'll never be able to have a reasonable discussion about this.
"Excuses" implies that students have done something wrong they need to account for. I just disagree with that. I'm not one of your high school students, and I don't need to answer to you. I enjoy going to Football and Hockey games, so I go to them. I really don't feel obligated to go to them though.
When your reasons for not showing up on time is involves the molecular formular of CH3CH2OH, it is ringing hollow. Seriously, I showed up to every game on time drunk for a good majority while also working on a thesis. It all comes down to time management.
I used to think the same as you did a couple years ago. I would get all pissy when an alum would get crotchety about the students. Things change when you are paying student loans while also cutting the AD checks for the PSL and season tickets.
If you don't feel obligated then find someone to use them. It was embarrasing to see the half empty student section for Akron. If you don't feel embarrased for your fellow students who fail to show up on time, then we will never agree.
I do not feel embarrassed about that. It's their decision. Obviously I don't agree because I made a different decision, but that's a separate issue. I don't see why I'd ever be embarrassed about that.
So you're saying that now that things are more expensive for you, you're going to act super bitter towards people who are now enjoying what you once did?
wow...are you really this dense? No wonder you have been banned three times before. I weep for our students if they were not ashamed at their fellow students for failing to show up.
I feel bitter because students USED to fill up the stadium even for a noon game against eastern. However, the pregaming with pat culture screwed that up.
Get some perspective.
That stadium would be hilariously quiet without students, and you know it.
Your argument works for football. Not basketball. Student attendance for basketball is much better than general admittance. Obviously the problem for basketball should be handled by giving students the lower tickets if season ticket holders miss a game or two. If the general admittance people don't show up for even one game we should give the rest of their tickets to students. The old fan doesn't bring any passion to the game anyway. Maybe we should just get rid of the lowered tickets for anyone but students. The lower bowl non students are an embarrassment to the school.
Funny cause I see empty seats all over the stadium in pictures from the Akron game. Wasn't the athletic department offering free t-shirts to get people to buy tickets to the Akron game? There sure were a lot of UM fans dressed in red/scarlet at the football stadium when they played Ohio in 2009.
the students should just be happy they get the best seats in the house for basketball and not upper deck behind the hoop. If you want to prove a point show up to every single game and pack the place to over max capacity.
Whatever happened to just going because you like to watch basketball and root for your team? Why do students need a "championship" caliber team to motivate their attendance?
is so concerned about filling the seats why not make it easier to transfer the tickets to a non student? Perhaps let the each student ticket holder transfer 2 tickets pear season to a non student without the upgrade fee?
While I recently graduated, I was still able to use a student ticket off another student. I went to the Notre Dame game, and while the game was good, the new system was certainly a detractor to my experience. I arrived 2 hours before the game, ended up in the endzone less than 1/4 way up. Sitting there for 2 hours crammed like sardines was certainly not enjoyable in what I would think were ok seats. The area was predominantly freshmen who clearly did not know what to do during a game. I even got heckled for being "too loud" when Notre Dame was on a third down. On a positive note during the game the row lightened up (maybe people moved up?) and I was able to stand comfortable, but the 2 hour wait was not fun.
My memory of the 2011 Notre Dame game in row one of section 26 is much fonder. Arrived simply an hour before the game started with no problems getting to my seat and ample room to sit. The stadium filled up easily before pre game. Of course I was with mostly seniors who knew what it took to be a good student section. The area I was sitting in knew how to generate noise and my ears were ringing by the end of the game. While it did get somewhat crowded where I was sitting probably from people sitting where they weren't supposed to, people were courteous and respectful.
Rather than pure GA they probably could have developed a hybrid system and allow greater incentives to go to cupcake games (As big games never had a problem of getting filled). Right now there isn't really anything for students to do during the wait other than talk with strangers around you. That and the inadequate infastructure on gameday in regards to cell service makes using your cellphone nearly impossible in the stadium. Getting out of your seat usually means that you won't be able to get it back, so you can't just walk around and enjoy the stadium while keeping your seat.
why are you bitching on a blog? go fornicate
I really don't get what the big issue is, at least for basketball.
As far as the GA policy for football, well, I haven't developed an opinion yet.
I had basketball season tickets every year I was in school and I probably only made it to 70%-75% of the games.
It's just not feasible and there are too many other commitments that get in the way.
Study groups, papers, tests, events, etc...
If it comes down to attending a game against Northwest South Generic State University at 8pm on a Tuesday night, or studying for an exam I have early Wednesday morning with a group from my class, I'm probably going to study.
I'm not Cardale Jones.
I ain't come here to play FOOTBALL. I come here to play SCHOOL.
but last I checked, the students still paid American dollars for their tickets, I feel like they deserve the same product.
They don't pay the same amount of American dollars as everyone else. Nor, it seems, do they actually bother using their tickets as much as everyone else.
Students who actually show up have nothing to fear. The "I bought season tickets just to see MSU" crowd, well, they're out of luck.
This is such a bullshit argument. Oh they pay less and we have to pay more, woe is me!
Oh please, don't try to turn this around. I have season tickets and don't have a problem paying for them. The poster above is bitching about not being treated the exact same as the people who pay far more than they do. Students get subsidized tickets. There are strings attached, yes, but if they care enough to go to most of the games those strings aren't too harsh.
"Students who actually show up have nothing to fear. The "I bought season tickets just to see MSU" crowd, well, they're out of luck."
You're completely missing the point. If that behavior wasn't ok, they should have been warned beforehand. If you don't make the conditions explicit from the beginning, you shouldn't get to dictate how people use what they paid for.
I think that's a fair point - I do think the AD should have put this in place sooner. However, students do have the chance right now to get a refund.
"If that behavior wasn't ok, they should have been warned beforehand. "
I agree they should have been warned of the potential punishment beforehand.
Everyone should have known the behavior wasn't ok beforehand, no warning required.
Ok, what's especially wrong about it? Consumers shouldn't get to decide how they use what they purchase?
"Ok, what's especially wrong about it?"
What is especially wrong about buying season tickets and then not bothering to show up?
Oy.... If you don't inherently know that, I'm afraid it is unexplainable to you.
I lost interest in the article when it became clear the main thrust of it was "but we have better things to do and shouldn't be punished for it." I see the athletic department trying to come up with rewards for people who express an interest in watching the game instead of not watching the game, and the people who don't fall into that category consider the lack of reward a punishment.
If this indeed was the tone, I completely agree with your post
It'll be interesting to find out if there will actually be people in that situation. I don't know if the system will allow the department to find out how many people want tickets to a particular "pod" and don't get them. Right now it's all theoretical and worth at least a shot. People who choose not to use what they paid for, of which there are quite a few, won't have room to complain.
it seems pretty demeaning to have non students tell me how I, and my fellow scholastic aspirants, should feel about this issue. It seems as though the only way some people on this thread and in the AD will view us is as stupid kids who they can tell what to do. It is my understanding, and some may call this naive, that a institution of higher learning's primary purpose is to serve the student body.
To me it all translates as grouchy if-you're-not-going-to-be-a-good-garden-gnome-gtfo type of talk. I appreciate the numbers but the mgocommunity routinely complains about SEC oversigning but yet over selling tickets gets a pass?
This is a legit problem for the AD, but there need to be solutions that work with the students instead of against them or around them.
You are assuming that people are going to hate this policy forever. I think it's more likely that people will just get used to it. The people who care enough about the team to show up regularly will get rewarded. Those who don't, won't - but they aren't big fans to begin with.
As a recent alum, this department's actions and the vitrol I read on these topics from other alums makes me not want to donate and without seeing something done by the AD to rectify the situation and acknowledge the mistakes made in how the students have been treated (agree with the policy or not, the process sucked). I'll continue to watch and root from afar but my desire to donate to the AD, buy merch and tix is at an all time low and I seriously doubt it'll change.
I just fail to understand why everyone complains about a half empty student section at kickoff for the Akron game yet absolves the students for completely skipping basketball games.
you should see Yost when Michigan plays Windsor
Michigan's main problem was just getting 5,000 people into Crisler
I read the title of the article and then no more, a bit dramatic for my tastes. Here's my take though which I've posted here once before: I will NEVER understand those of you that think going to a football/ basketball game is some kind of moral imperative. Actively deceiving consumers is something that I think is clearly wrong, though.
Buying tickets isn't a moral imperative. But if you do buy them, you should use them. Otherwise you're potentially preventing someone else from going. Crisler is not that big of a place.
Do you use this reasoning for everything you consume?
Even if I grant what you're saying, that still doesn't justify the level of vitriol this topic inspires in some people. So at most I'll grant that there's a week 'should' involved, but not anywhere near strong enough to warrant words like "disgusting" and "disgraceful."
Are you seriously pumped to go watch Houston Baptist play?
I'm not a student or an alumni. I didn't even read the article, but I did read some of the quotes some of you have put on here from said article. The one that sticks out to me the most is the one about future alumni not donating. That is going to be exactly what happens. The Stephen Ross' will not be around forever. It's got to be a never ending flow and all screwing with the current students is going to disrupt that flow in the future.
For me, the "dynamic" pricing is crap. $107 for a ticket to Indiana is robbery. It's pricing out the average fan, IMO. I know I'm not a student or an alumni so I don't really matter. If I wanna go I'll pay. But I'm at the point now where I do wanna go, but I won't pay it. I'll save the $500+ I spend to go to buy a bigger tv, or a new gun or something. And the 6 other people that go with me will do the same. It's starting to look like this year will be the first year my group will not go to a game in 8 years.
....that sounds ohio'ish
Yea because only people in Ohio buy guns. Dumbass
all athletes get paid or more meal/whatever they call it money on top of the free athletic scholarships. good luck filling those seats.
I bought tickets and am leaning 90% to a refund. I'll be a grad student in the winter and I don't envision having time to trek over to Crisler to see every single game vs. Western Tennessee Valley Tech... meaning I likely wouldn't even be allowed in the building for the MSU game.
Glancing through the comments it doesn't look like I'm alone when I say I'm growing increasingly disillusioned with not only the AD, but the overall state of affairs for college athletics in general.
I mean, we're still talking about a University athletic team, right? How much longer can we keep calling it that? The consensus on this blog seems to be that most students are evil, pesky, lazy brats and should either submit to Dave Brandon or be eliminated. I'd say a majority also seem to believe college athletes should be paid more than the current value of their scholarships. But once you get rid of the students and turn the athletes into professionals, what are you left with?
I'd say the answer to that is pretty clear: you get a minor league NFL team that happens to have the same name as a University by a historical anomaly. There will be no next generation of die-hard alums flooding the forums on MGoBlog in 2033. "College football" in its own right will have ceased to exist.
"I'll be a grad student in the winter and I don't envision having time to trek over to Crisler..."
I love when I hear this from students. I know this may be hard to believe, but you're never again (or at least not for a long, long time) going to have as much free time as you do right now. I'm not picking on you with this, and don't really intend this against you personally (because I don't know your individual situation), but there are reasons why most people would gladly go back to college or grad school, and the free time that you didn't think you had at the time is one of the top reasons.
It's certainly true that everyone's experience is different, but I hear the "I don't have enough time" thing from students, who actually do and they just can't manage their time appropriately, so many times that it's just laughable now. It's all about priorities and choices. Even if you can manage your time, sooner or later in life you just can't do everything you want to and you just have to make some choices. We've all been there (or will get there) at some point.
I'll start off saying I really have no idea what your undergrad experience was like. But it seems to me that you're generalizing that to the entire student population, across all degrees and schools - which is utterly absurd.
You seem to believe that just having the label of "student" means all you have to do is go to a handful of classes and study from time to time. I'm not sure where you came up with that assumption. I have many friends who are current graduate students in the sciences and are in the lab doing research at LEAST 100 hours/week. Many of them have done summer internships in industry and they always come back marvelling at how much free time they had under a regular workday schedule.
Long story short, college is as busy as you make it. The athletic department seems to be pushing out students who would like to participate in campus sporting events occasionally but would rather devote most of their time to participating in far more productive activities.
You seem to believe that just having the label of "student" means all you have to do is go to a handful of classes and study from time to time."
Nope. I don't believe that at all.
"I have many friends who are current graduate students in the sciences and are in the lab doing research at LEAST 100 hours/week."
And they probably aren't the ones complaining on sports message boards about how they don't have enough time to go to sporting events.
"Many of them have done summer internships in industry and they always come back marvelling at how much free time they had under a regular workday schedule."
That's because they were interns. That "regular workday" changes just a wee bit when it's your actual job.
I didn't poll anyone on how much time they spend on MGoBlog, but honestly writing these responses takes 2 minutes each so I don't see what you're getting at. I can say for sure that I have heard plenty of complaints from legitimately busy people about not having enough time to go to a basketball game against Baby Seal U. on Tuesday night in February.
Also, your obvious biases are showing once again with regards to internships. I can't say this is the case for all internships, but the people I'm talking about have said that their managers - who always left work earlier - literally ended up begging them to go home early and have a life.
If you knew what you were talking about you'd know that "shorter hours" is considered one of the primary perks of working in industry vs academia (go ahead and google industry vs academia hours).
Anyway, I do concede that having this conversation with you, while not very time consuming, is still an utter waste of time. so Adios.
"If you knew what you were talking about you'd know that "shorter hours" is considered one of the primary perks of working in industry vs academia (go ahead and google industry vs academia hours)."
This is, by far, my absolute favorite part of any of your posts. Talking about making assumptions about the person you are responding to (which, recall, I said at the outset I wasn't saying any of what I said toward you in particular)...
That band members take "real majors," spend many more hours before and after games on Saturday, go on road trips, and oh, practice all week. But they're not all flunking out left and right or taking underwater basket weaving. So it's a crap excuse.
Yes, if you're sending 100 hours a week doing something you shouldn't be buying season tickets and should be buying a ticket for the one or two games you can attend.
"I have many friends who are current graduate students in the sciences and are in the lab doing research at LEAST 100 hours/week."
...and those people shouldn't be buying season tickets - because they're obviously too busy to use them.
These first couple years working after college really do drive that point home.
Taking experimental data at 3 am for my thesis drove that point home, while my engineer buddies were home by 5:30 pm...
Of course, you omit that your engineer buddy was at work by 8am, while you slept until noon...
false i was still in the lab. took a three hour nap on the office couch. Was back to work on my cell culture by 7 am. nice try on the characterization of academics. We scientists are not lazy like history PhD's.
I'm sure you were. There was an implied "/s" at the end of my last post.
man my sarcasm meter is off this morning
however, my baseless condescending assumption-meter was going nuts
Yeah, that's my fault. I wasn't very clear and it wasn't coming across right. It's actually a great example of how what I've said is being taken the wrong way. I'm not comparing your engineer friend to you in the lab, I was comparing you in the lab to you in ten years. I didn't articulate this well at all.
I would like you to tell that to Medical/Dental students. They will laugh in your face. While some grad programs do have more free time than others, there are many programs with very little free time.
I don't for a second doubt that they would. I also don't doubt for a second that ten years later they would completely agree with me.
Compare your average fan and what they do and how much free time they have to a medical/dental student. It is a lot more. I'm not saying all students have less free time than all non-students, matter of fact it doesn't matter. What does matter is that when a student has 6 exams in a 2 day span they are not going to be making it out to the South Carolina State game...How can you not understand that?
It isn't that I don't understand that; it's that we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about the average student versus the average fan. I'm talking about the average student versus what they will admit about themselves and their perception of how busy they thought they were as a student compared to how busy they are now. Yes, that average dental student is busier than the average fan, but that average dental student has more time now then he will when he is balancing a dental practice, a family, and trying to maintain a semblance of a "social life". That average dental student, 5 years removed from school will (and I do say "will", not "may") look back on how much time they had in school and laugh at how busy they thought they were. It really doesn't matter what school they are in, as it's not a comparison between individuals, but rather a statement about an individual.
Wait, let me get this straight. People are generally bad at assessing how busy they are (tending to overestimate). So our perceptions about how busy we are are unreliable. Therefore, we should rely on the perceptions of older-us about how busy they are ? What makes older-us better at assessing how busy they are? Perhaps hindsight makes us better evaluators, but only about things in the past! So of course you'd think you were busier in the present compared to the past.
"So of course you'd think you were busier in the present compared to the past."
That's not necessarily accurate, or even really relevant. For example, it isn't that someone is busier now than they have been at all points in the past, but rather that they thought (at the time) that they were unbearably busy in school only to find that significant periods after school (although not necessary all periods after school, which is what makes your statement inaccurate) were far busier. It's not really (or even, at all) about past v. present; it's about differentiating between different periods in the past.
I thought you meant that medical/dental/etc students should be at every game because they should "be good fans" , which is what pretty much everyone is saying in this thread. I didn't realize that you weren't trying to apply it to the athletic events, but said it more as a separate statement.
You actually think a medical student has less free time than a resident?
No. I'm including residencies in with medical school. It's obviously not m1-m4 year, but its still part of the formal training process.
Being the ever-busy professional that you are, I'm sure you understand that things come up (even for us lowly students). I'm not going to tell a group that we can't meet to do something because I have to go watch Coppin State in order to attend the games that I actually want to go to.
Of course they do; that's never going to change, and will only get worse. Here's the deal. I wasn't saying that I (or any other graduate/professional) is busier than you, or any other individual student. What I was saying is that most likely YOU will look back at YOURSELF and have the realization that you weren't nearly as busy as you thought you were and will wish that you would have done the things that you thought you were to busy to do. This was never intended as a "a you're just a student, and I'm a working professional, so I'm so much busier than you" thing. The fact is, a lot of students are almost certainly busier than me. That doesn't mean, though, that they won't be busier as professionals than they were as students. They almost certainly will be. Obviously, I could have articulated my point far better initially.
You explain yourself much better here. Initially it seems like you are attacking students by saying you are much busier(along with all other graduates) than the students are which means they should go to the games, which you really aren't saying at all. Your just comparing them to their future selves.
I had less time as a student than I do now that I am a graduate. I skipped a few Saturdays to work in lab, and now I have time to watch games every Saturday (if they're not blacked out, thanks ESPN). I think a lot of PhD grads share this sentiment.
sorry to let you know...
but when I opened the article I laughed and thought, " This guy doesn't know what 'Totalitarian' means." The second thought was, "Oh, to be in undergrad again."
This is my senior year at U of M and have attended nearly every game since I arrived on campus. My freshman year I was one of the few people in the whole arena (not just student section) at tipoff every game. The number of games I have missed through my first 3 years can easily be counted on one hand, and the games I missed were due to reasons that were more important than sports. I am in the bleachers early for every game, sat in the front 2 rows at the final four and national championship, and am a big time Michigan sports fan. The main problem I have with this is the athletic department needs to understand that sometimes it's not possible to attend every game. What if one of the most dedicated student fans gets really ill, or has some form of family emergency where they miss two games in one week and has to miss the Indiana game this year? Or get shitty seats to the state game? My point is some things in life are bigger than sports, and having to miss games in the past due to these things myself, I will feel terrible for myself and others if they have to miss out on Michigan sporting events because the athletic department screws us over.
To all of you bitching and complaining, and saying students can stop whining and need to just show up, need to tell that to the students who aren't the dedicated fans. The dedicated ones are there every night cheering on the maize and blue that we all have grown to love, and now we have the possibility of getting screwed out of tickets because other students don't care as much as we do. How would you feel as a michigan football season ticket holder who has attended nearly every game for 30 years if the athletic department gave your ticket to a game to somebody else because you couldn't show up the previous week? I bet not very well.
For most games there will be more than 1500 students not showing up. So just what exactly is so bad about giving Michigan State tickets to the most loyal fans??
If you want to attend 3 games a year, just buy tickets on stubhub. Don't take up a student ticket and then not attend 85% of the games.
There is a culture of being fashionably late to football games, especially amongst the greek crowd (I was often guilty of this when I was a student). If you want to create more memories then start tailgating 30 minutes earlier and show up on time. Or do what I did and continue tailgating after the games. Partying 14 hours every Saturday vs partying 14 hours and 30 minutes won't affect the quality of your "memories" with your friends. I promise you.
This weak schedule crap is total BS. Students don't show up in good numbers or on time for non-marquee B10 games either.
This attitude of being needed to be "courted" by the athletic department in order to be loyal fans or future donors is pathetic.
It's funny to me that you have a great deal of crotchety alums bitching about the students with regard to this change in policy, because if the AD started jerking around the alums' season tickets in the manner they're doing it to the students...
Oh. My. God.
The bitching and whining and outrage and complaining would be endless.
Every resident of the state of Michigan would be able to hear a low murmur.
The whining would be so relentless that the AD would immediately revert back to the old policies faster than you can grab a seat cushion.
I say all of this as an alum.
I seem to remember the alums being able to show up on time and put forth the necessary effort to make it a Michigan game, FERGODSAKES.
You have any numbers to back that up? I don't think 53.9% of alumni ticketholders failed to show up last year.
No way. If 53.9% of the entire arena had been empty, we'd have had 6,000 people present for an average game - over the entire season. You think that's all we had?
I have been to Crisler during games where if the students hadn't of shown up that place would've been empty.
He lost me at his jam of the week. When will the kids realize that Drake sucks?
Students are lucky enough to be students at one of the best public universities in the country. You are also lucky enough to get discounted tickets to sporting events that non-students would kill to get. I have absolutely no remorse for any students bitching about the new policies. When our student section is HALF as loud and rowdy as the likes of Ohio, LSU, Wisconsin, and PSU (amongst others of course), then maybe we can have a little bit more of an intimidating stadium. Until then, STFU, get the great education that Michigan will provide you with, accept your discounted tickets, come to the games on time, and quit whining.
It's like some people here would be perfectly happy if only there wasn't some pesky University interfering with their favorite semi-pro football team.
Except he's right. Our student section does not live up to the 18,000 people it seats. It should be louder. Just like the rest of the stadium. But at least the rest of the stadium isn't empty.
It's a pretty weak student section, but to be fair, the stadium atmosphere at the stadium is weak overall. We have the largest stadium in the country and it's not very loud. Don't give me the "it's too wide open" bull shit argument because that is a minimal factor in the crowd noise. The problem lies with the fans. Instead of yelling "down in front," people should be yelling "GO BLUE" and cheering for their team. Dave Brandon should take away the bleachers and make it a standing room only (I kid obviously...kind of).
No, I never said that. It's just when they start bitching about something so unimportant as a new ticket policy, that's when they annoy me. I'm a college graduate (Kent State) and could have gone to Michigan if I wanted to, but was uncomfortable dropping $30,000+ a year for that (out-of-state obviously). Many Michigan students are so spoiled and complain about stupid shit like this that it annoys me.
Please don't comment on the students unless you know what you're talking about. From your posts, it doesn't sound like you do.
Also, why did you feel the need to clarify that you graduated college? Especially the bit about "could have gone to Michigan?"
If you read the post I replied to, you can figure it out, but just in case you can't, I will explain. He made it sound like I don't get it or that I was never a student myself, at least that is what I got from it.
Looking at his comment, I don't read it that way at all.
You were uncomfortable dropping $30,000+ a year. Fair. However, maybe these same students who are doing exactly that have some strong opinions about something that affects their student life. I don't see how that makes them spoiled? I don't necessarily agree with the OP blogpost which I found to be too whiny; however, I am getting annoyed of the posts telling the students to stop being spoiled for being upset at a last minute change of policy to a product they already purchased under different pretenses.
Well, the AD has a right to amend policies. It's not like the students signed a contract with clauses that stated, "As long as I'm a student at Michigan, the ticket policy won't change." This analogy is a little over the top, but it's like the Constitution and its amendments. I'm sure there were people upset over some of the amendments, but guess what, they had to deal with them.
Students are "lucky enough" to be students at Michigan? I'm pretty sure every student that attends this great university works his/her tail off before and during their time on campus to earn that education they are "provided". And pays large sums of money to the university to do so.
And I'm sure the best way to make the student section "half as loud and rowdy" as other schools is to piss them all off and tell them to shut up and enjoy it.
Stop talking about "discounted" tickets!!! The students are paying $30,000 for the right to buy "discounted" tickets. It is college sports forgodsake! Your lack of "remorse" for a legitimate complaints to a bait and switch scheme pulled by the athletic department on the students is mystifying. Students are the good fans for basketball! Maybe you are letting your football attendance frustrations color your perception of the basketball issue?
So if 30k is for student discount on tix, the degree is free? Boy those kids in the ivy leagues and private schools sure are suckers.
Stop making this argument. It's beyond dumb
Wow. Your first post on a 300 message thread is to look me up and call me dumb. I must have really pissed you off the other day. You must be a very insignificant person.
But I will play -
So your argument is that being a student should not give you access to reduced tickets? Wow. I don't think many people would support you on that one.
But I am glad you advanced the thought process on this thread by pointing that out.
"So your argument is that being a student should not give you access to reduced tickets?"
I think being a student should give you the privilege of reduced tickets.
I have no problem with certain responsibilities being associated with that privilege.
If students don't wish to adhere to the responsibilities which accompany that privilege, they're welcome to purchase tickets on the open market which do not have attached responsibilities.
Businesses use loss leaders all the time to hook customers for the long haul.
Televisions ratings are skewed to more heavily account for young people because they're more valuable consumers to acquire.
And you're supporting bad buisness decisions/shady moral ones and being a jerk to other posters. Maybe you should get some perspective or just sit this one out.
This guy nailed it on the head. The tickets should be damn near free for students.
does not goes toward Michigan Athletic Department. Their budget is completely separate from the university money. You don't pay for the right for the discounted tickets. You paid to be the student at the University of Michigan.
If both budgets are linked, it's a different story. Since it's not, it's not a right because it's up to the Athletic Department to charge the prices of the tickets. They can charge you for the same price as the regular season tickets.
You want some frenchcries and a wamburger? You damn kids with your CD players, pagers, gameboys and fax machines are so freakin' spoiled. Just go to the game and quit obstructing my view with your mohawks, ski goggles and tech-vests.
So, as an alumn in his 40s, I came here ready to go all "in my day we showed up for games at noon" and "you may be the future, but stop acting like you are the now." I certainly think a lot of this pov is justified. The posts from many students and the linked article do suggest a sense of entitlement. its not enough to claim to be the future and make demands while you decide to stay in bed.
However, a number of points made by the author and student-supportive commenters do register. ND aside, the non-conference games listed in the aticle are pure crap. In my day (sorry) we played ND each year, plus got the likes of UCLA and Flordia State. Heck, Boston College used to be decent (top 30), and that was worst game on the schedule. This created at atmosphere where students got in the habit of going to the games on time, because the games were awesome. The best memories were to be made watching the game, not at the tailgate. I now get that this changes if the oppoent is sub-par week after week.
I am also struck by the fact that many of the compliants from the student side of things mirroed my own. The level of competition is already addressed. Also, I too sense that the AD sees me not as a loyal alumn, but a resource to be squeezed and then tossed aside as soon as someone else is willing to pay $1 more. The adversitiing grates. Worse, the stub-hub deal means that we end up with 1/3 of the section filled with OSU fans every two years. That sucks for the rest of us, but the AD is cool with it since he gets paid twice off of the same ticket (Yes, there is a way to stop this. SEC schools allow other fans to report you if opposing fans are in your seats. You get a warning or two and then loose your tickets.) The fact that the University runs this system that spoils the game experience for so many of us is telling.
The students do view the football experience differently that I did because it is different from what it was 20 years ago. This is really sad. Many of their concerns also mirror those of the broader fan base. Perhaps the students could make a bit more an effort during the conference schedule, and the rest of us should support them in their efforts to get through to the AD on the issues we have in common
The scheduling of crap games in the OP blogpost is a problem at many schools not just Michigan (did anyone see the stands 30 minutes to kickoff at Georgia, Ohio State, etc. this weekend?). I tend to think this is due to the BCS era of pts and scheduling. I am hoping at least that this playoff model may encourage a better SOS as opposed to the current model where 1 loss may take you out of the picture for good. Of course we're still years away with contracts made years in advance.
Showing up on time isn't just a student problem. Maybe the AD should implement the GA policy for all football tickets? Lets make 115,000 people arrive early and be handed a seat assignment based on where they are in line.
this article is the exact reason why i'm happy with general admission
I was a student from 2005-2009. I don't think I ever sat lower than like row 55, no idea why but I kind of got screwed my senior year. Still, when I was a senior, I went to that northwestern game and sat, soaked, until the end, and watched that 08 team lose from my mediocre seats. I would have killed to have watched a team as good as we have now, from anywhere in that stadium. And anyone who is complaining about dealing with the current status of the basketball team doesn't remember Tommy Amaker. Christ, you guys got to watch Trey Burke! You actually got to watch us beat OSU and MSU on a regular basis! If I could trade my sports experience with current students I would do it in a goddamn heartbeat.
Thank you. Speaking as someone whose collegiate football experience was bookended by The Horror and Mississippi St., I can say that you won't find me feeling sorry for any students who cannot seem to watch their elite football and basketball teams play on a regular basis.
Elite football team. You crack me up.
Last time I checked, the only current undergraduate class to have actually witnessed a home loss would be the seniors...their freshman year. Sounds pretty good to me.
I'm just ranting for no reason because it's what people do on the internet. What is lost in my vitriol, and I am trying to say is that people need to gain a little perspective and put these sorts of issues into a larger context.
Also, yes, this team is far from elite, but at the same time far from the 3-9 and 5-7 products from a few years back.