You really struggled to get that B.A!
If you don't like the prices, ticket policies, or the experience of going to a game, then don't go.
If enough people stop buying tickets, the prices will go down.
This isn't about whether or not we have a good team. We've established the team is good and people want to see them play. It's about not showing up to cupcake games.
Then why did they buy the tickets?
As in football, the question isn't "Why aren't students buying tickets?" but "Why do they buy tickets and then not show up?"
I might believe that if the same thing weren't also going on in football - and we weren't bad very long in that sport, just three years. It seems that Michigan students now just aren't as into sports in general as they used to be.
Crisler was never that bad. I've gone to games there for a long time. It used to have dingy concourses and old, dirty seats, yes, but it wasn't a bad place to actually watch a game. It always had good sightlines and there were never any true nosebleed seats - its capacity was never more than 13,700. Having grown up watching the Pistons play at the Silverdome and then the Palace (22,000), I always thought Crisler was okay.
I guess you've never been to northwestern.
"Oh and let's not forget witnessing the largest scandal in the history of NCAA sports."
Memphis w/ Derrick Rose
Charley Pell at Florida
Miami Football loses 31 scholarships in 94
Barry Switzer at Oklahoma
Minnesota Basketball in the mid 90's
O.J. Mayo at USC
Reggie Bush at USC
Ed Martin with Michigan
Those first seven are all much worse than the last two. Want to know why? Because it directly involved the school/athletic department being complicit in the violations. So no, Michigan basketball was not at all involved in the "largest scandal in the history of NCAA sports".
You can't honestly believe that what Ed Martin and 3 players did compares to SMU getting the death penalty, or even Miami losing 31 scholarships. There simply is NO comparison between the two. At this point, you've been shot down on every argument you've made in this thread, and now you are simply arguing to argue.
But I tell you what. If you can get two people on this blog to agree with you that the Ed Martin thing was worse than SMU or Miami, we'll all start agreeing with you. If you can't, you have to stop posting for 48 hours and cool off.
While it didn't kill interest, that shouldn't matter to the present-day team. Since Beilein has taken over, it has been completely different. And as someone who grew up watching the Fab 5 and the subsequent teams, I can tell you that the interest was never killed. Those post-F5 teams were still really good. They constantly under-achieved, but they were very talented. It wasn't until Amaker got to campus that the team bottomed out. That was a brief enough period that it would have only had the same affect that the late Carr and RR teams did for the football program.
Pathetic argument. The question isn't why no one is buying tickets but why 50% of student tickets are unused. If they were raised Michigan fans and grew up with such pathetic teams why would they buy tickets in the first place?
This years seniors, their entire college career have experienced successful basketball teams that were fun to watch. Freshman year, we destroyed Tennessee in the first round of the tourney before losing at the buzzer to duke. Morris returned for their sophomore year and we won a share of the big ten title before losing again in the second round of the tourney. Obv we all remember what happened this year. Excuse me if I don't have much sympathy for no shows.
I'm in my first year of a Masters program at UofM, and this sentiment about the athletic department is not just shared amongst drunk undergrads.
Also, the "whiny entitled student" argument is really starting to piss me off. Of course students feel entitled! Many students devote everything to getting into and paying for this school, and it would be nice to not get raked over the coals by Dave Brandon.
Additionally, while I am at every game as early as possible, showing up a little late is not that unreasonable considering the circumstances. The Athletic Department frankly doesn't give a shit about the students unless there's an opportunity to make money, so why not spend some time with friends and people that actually care about you? Sure, even for the average fan, some of the classic games they've witnessed at Michigan Stadium will be cemented in their memories forever, but I can guarantee Joe Blow will never forget wandering the streets of Ann Arbor with his best friends. Damn him if he misses 5 minutes against Akron.
Unfortunately, I can just post here and swallow my frustration because I care too much about these teams, and this school really means a lot to me. However, I wish there was even the slightest recognition by the Athletic Department, that despite whatever percentage numbers are thrown around, we still, undoubtedly, have some of the most outstanding student support out of any program in the country.
Finally--> Crisler's renovation is absolutely stunning, and it was a mindblowing transformation. On the other hand, the student section design is horrible. I really don't see how that can be argued.
But we just don't get the numbers for it for weaker games, thus everyone loses.
Under 400 people get into the bleachers. That creates a pretty weak home court advantage.
Students didn't show THEN the athletic department stopped giving a shit about them, not the other way around.
And while you'll certainly remember times with your friends, times drinking at tailgates aren't really that memorable, and you'll remember games far more.
Both sides have problems. However, the real problem with what the Athletic deparment is doing is creating a divide among the students and the athletics(You will not find many students who like the new system, I'm not sure I've talked to 1 student yet who does). I'm not saying nothing needed to be done, but what they did for football wasn't good.
Ok, first: I am a Michigan student, a 5th year senior who has loved M since I cared enough about any sport to root for anyone.
I am ONLY defending students when it comes to basketball, not football, because in terms of the football whining, I don't think students have a strong argument. I wish we could play better/more interesting opponents, but alas. Wanting to tailgate for 20-40 more minutes and thus causing this uproar does not seem worth it to me, though I can understand how people want to build their memories (after hours of drinking on gameday...) and stuff.
I'm here to defend M's students when it comes to basketball, though. I went to every damn game during our 15-17 season which ended in (more) heartbreak due to Evan Turner in Indianapolis, which I also attended. I have had season tickets every year I've been here, and missed only 3 non-break games. Why some of you are angry with Michigan students' basketball attendance is beyond me.
During 2009, especially, the student bleachers were the ONLY area of Crisler packed with fans and for no less than 2/3 the games that year, we were the majority of the fans in attendance. So all this criticizing about students "not showing up" for basketball kind of make me angry, because when our basketball team was mediocre, you adult-folk were NOT there, like at all, not at tipoff, not at halftime. We were the ones (the Maize Rage and a small periphery of other interested game-goers) who populated Crisler, and the only ones at that. Complain about attendance if you'd like, but the interest in M bball just was not there and it's hard for me to forget how little actual, physical support (as in showing up) there was by non-student fans.
I would generally approve of the new b-ball policy, except that now you have a large group of students who have shelled out money, significant money (to us), for tickets they are no longer guaranteed. It's a bit of a messy bail-out system that is the product of inherently trying to oversell to increase attendance. I get it. But to bash M's students and argue that somehow our attendance for basketball sucks, please stop.
To the dude who argued that making the NCAA tournament is better than average...no, it's not. For what should be a power program (albeit just coming off sanctions), making the tournament is average. What isn't average is making the tournament RELATIVE to many years before of not making it.
PS - re: student attendance: it would be nice to read something constructive and not critical on here on the subject for once. We're Michigan, and we're better than this petty arguing between adult fans and student fans. I hope this is a rift that closes quickly and also that the growing rift between alumni and the athletic department closes quickly, because much of the camaraderie that makes being a M fan great seems to be disappearing.
of course, the anti-student crowd totally ignores this comment.
I graduated after fall of 2011, and alabama A&M was my final game in Crisler Arena.
I went to all non-conference games up to AL A&M then I graduated and left the state.
I would say the alumni/fan attendance for games like western illlinois or arkansas pine bluff were just as bad.
For those games, i bet they still count the paid tickets as attendance, but I would guarantee you, the % of students showing up to those games in 2011 (and i bet it's the same from 2008-2010) is higher than the % of non-student who actually showed up.
And least for that half of the season, I spent most of the time at the very top rows (and they wonder why students aren't interested in going to watch a game against Arkansas Pine Bluff once they couldn't get into the Maize Rage bleachers. ) So the lower bowl for students is constantly filled to capacity. The cameras will only show the student section angle for those games too, with the alumni/fan section empty like football against Akron 2013.
I was combing through this thread wanting a better articulated piece from the student point of view. (The OP's blog post seemed way too whiny and this is coming from a constituent fan directly affected by the new student policy.[grad school student] )
I would like to just concur with you sir.
20-40 minutes your kidding me your talking multiple hours if you want decent seats general admission while lead to general apathy from the students both now and not long term.
I bet you guys also walked uphill both ways on your walk to Michigan Stadium and Crisler Arena for every single game, never missing one.
In regards to football, I know the athletic department has been a mess lately and I sympathize with the raising of ticket prices. But some of those points brought up are pure crap.
1. In regards to last year's Northwestern game, don't tell me that going to the game on time was going to prevent you from a lifetime of memories and meeting new friends. Do you not realize how stupid that sounds? You're on campus 8 months of the year. You can get memories and new friends the other 234 days you're around each other.
2. I know this sounds shocking, but you can also tailgate AFTER the game. That's what all the alumni do. Is there some rule against getting wasted at 3:30 p.m.?
3. You can recite the crumby non-conference schedules of the last several years all you want. The opponent is not worth your money. But 2 years ago, I was at the Minnesota and Purdue games, both of which had half empty student sections. Maybe those squads weren't ranked in the top ten BUT they were B1G games. And we were in title contention in our division when those games were played, right up until we got screwed by two horrible calls in Iowa City. So let's not make it seem like this is a non-conference problem. It seems if it's not a rival, you're not interested. And not even a ranked opponent, like Nebraska was in 2011, was good enough for you to get there on time because of the noon start. That's just sad.
Dave Brandon has done a ton of things that have pissed me off. But the students have done the same and many of their arguments, even after the questionable moves by the athletic department, are pretty damn weak.
WH - while this is slightly off-topic, why did you stop posting game highlights for games this year? It seemed like last year they were up within a few hours of game's end. Have more copyrighting issues arisen? (I believe you mentioned that having been an issue years back when you switched from dynoguy to WH, sorry for creepin', I've just always been a fan of your work)
T3Media went on a blocking spree because of copyrighted material. They told me I would be O.K. if I shortened highlight videos from my usual 20 minutes to about 8-9 minutes. I did that, and they STILL blocked the videos.
The only vids that don't get blocked now seem to be player tributes and fluff pieces like the Keith Jackson piece since they feature clips from multiple games.
Thanks for the support anyway. I'm surprised you remember the dynoguy account.
My question is what is the no show percentage for non-student season ticket holders. When I was a student a couple years ago, for the bad games the student section was the only one filled up with empty seats in droves in all other sections. I would love to see a perentage for the non-student ticket holder and see if it is any better. I would love to see the response if this policy was inacted for everyone.
That for the OSU game, there were a lot of patchy empty seats in the lower bowl across from the student section. Most other big games were pretty full, but there were still noticeable no shows for them.
The rest of the games there were also a lot of empty seats, despite all the sellout claims.
I would give the non-student section areas of Crisler a 25-35% attendance rate for most average games in 2009, and probably only slightly better in 2010. Below average matchups basically meant crickets in the entire top bowl of Crisler and a smattering of random fans in the lower bowl.
One year, we played Concordia and they took up an entire upper bowl section and made more noise than everyone else in Crisler combined.
I agree with the author here for two reasons: (1) As the Akron picture of the student section shows: If GA was intended to get students to show up early/on time to non-marquee games, it has failed miserably. [Caveats of small sample size of course apply.]
And (2) I think these sentences really hit home:
"My biggest issue is these two policies were launched with no warning and no input from the student body. No transition period, nothing, just a flat out rule change, take it or leave it. ... I cannot wait to get out of Ann Arbor and not donate to this cash hungry school for a long time. David Brandon and Hunter Lochmann, whether they like it or not, are antagonizing and alienating the student body. With how I feel I have been treated, do they expect me to send my kids here in 20-30 years and buy season tickets for them? This is not how you groom future alumni as beneficiaries, this is how you make money now and lose money in the long term."
I think this hits it dead on. For all the "these students are whiners, "Bo would have said to deal with it," "I showed up on time in the snow with no shoes just to see them practice," and other BS from unsympathetic alumni/posters here, this argument still carries weight regardless of your crotchety perspective. The students ARE the future alumni who are depended on to support the program, and if they feel mistreated, they will not donate. I know I won't donate to this administration, and I graduated years before GA. When the department clearly cares so much about the bottom line and so obviously doesn't care about the students, it slowly bleeds the heart of what makes Michigan special. It's not [supposed to be] a business like the Lions that milks every dollar it can- it's a school you love and cheer for because you're a PART of it. But with the students being treated simply like flyby ticket buyers, instead of an active part of the University and program itself, it kills that. Sure, showing up late looks really bad, and skipping out on games entirely is even worse. But that doesn't justify cutting them out of the conversation completely, because without the students, it's just a sport of unpaid minor leaguers. And that's not Michigan.
Nitpick the author all you like for his errors and unfortunate side complaints (like about the donuts), but he's onto something. This athletic department is in trouble, in the long run, if they don't turn this ship around and start to appreciate the students. Otherwise, we'll not only lose our attendance streak, but we may also lose what makes Michigan so great: the sense of family I and other alumni, who graduated before this corporatization really took hold, feel about this great school. I don't want to see that happen, but I think we're headed down that road.
Anyway, regardless of whether you agree with me, if you made it this far, thanks for hearing my two cents.
Amen. I am also of the mind that I will not donate to this administration, specifically as long as Hunter Lochmann is still part of the athletic department.
I recommend that you donate instead to a non-rival athletic department, and make sure this AD/Victors Club knows about it. When they see dollars that could be going to them, go elsewhere, they'll realize that they're doing something wrong. (Personally I donate to South Carolina for no reason.)
I don't donate to Brandon or Lochmann. I donate to Michigan Athletics and the University of Michigan, the students and student-athletes who go there. Whatever you have taken so personally, was not directed at you personally. You either support your alma mater or not and that is your choice.
With time, success and reflection you may change your mind and stop asking what the University can do for you but rather what you can do for the University. (And seriously, the Gamecocks?)
I wish I could donate to the student athletes, and support them, but every dollar I donate to them goes to show Dave Brandon and Hunter Lochmann that what they are doing is working. The only way to protest their actions is to not donate. Words do not matter to them, as long as the bottom line is looking good that is all they care about.
And you've hit it dead on, I've taken this very personally. This stems back to when they took hockey students to general admission a year ago. They took away my 8 years of priority seating, and put us all in the same bin. How would season football ticket holders feel if all of a sudden the seats you've had for years were just randomly redistributed (yes I know it's GA and not random)? I was in fact able to get Red on my side, and he asked the ticket office to help me out, but Hunter denied this request. If I was a high level donor, my request would've been fulfilled, but as a student I was ignored. It doesn't matter that I was a handful of students to be in Albany and St Louis, loyalty doesn't matter to them. And thus, loyalty when it comes to the athletic department does not matter to me.
P.S. Red is a great man.
If students want to throw a tantrum about increased cost (still way below normal ticket prices), then continue to reduce the number of student tickets available. Non-students still show up in droves and on time. Your job as a student with season football ticket is to go to games and cheer on your school, if you don't want to do that, then don't buy tickets. That article is, frankly, ridiculous.
Well, my post was clearly about football. But if you want to bring basketball into the mix, I have season basketball tickets and from the WMU game onward, Crisler had an excellent attendance rate. Once the team proved they were for real, sell-outs were common. They are going to be even more common this year.
Also, at least adults with jobs and kids have a reason not to show up to Concordia - although that still doesn't entirely excuse no-shows. The students live on campus and rarely have class at 7pm. You can always find a 3 hour break twice a week in your studies. Its a 5 minute bus ride to get to Crisler, or a 15-20 minute walk. Some normal season ticket holders have a 45+ minute drive into Ann Arbor.
Simply put, there is no excuse for buying season tickets and then not showing up. If you don't like the policy and want to hang out outside the stadium during games, don't buy tickets. The most sensible approach involves selling season tickets to as many students who request them, and eliminating the right to buy tickets for those students who don't show up for at least 6/7 home football games or 80+% of basketball games.
Some people need to work to be able to afford luxuries. My parents didn't pay got anything. I paid my way through scholarships, working, and loans. Sorry Concordia on a Tuesday wasn't a priority for me. If I wasn't working, I'd have been studying with the game on mute in the back.
As a high school teacher, I am very tuned to pick up whining. The blog post was whining when it was referencing the football ticket policies. I have zero sympathy for students when it comes to football. You pay less than 50% of what I do for my tickets in the boring alumni sections. Don't give me the tuition argument. I just started paying for my student loans. You can't make it on time because you want to get wasted with Pat Stansik. Put down the booze and walk down Hoover to Kipke and make it on time. I made it to every single game at least one hour before kick off and I was still wasted most of the time. It can be done. Where is the damn effort?
When it comes to the basketball policy. Students have a legit beef. I GSI'ed for chem 130 and 125. I know we typically schedule midterms on weekday game nights. I feel for you if you are pre-med in chem130. We didn't intentionally schedule them on game nights, it is just the way it works out with room scheduling and the curriculum.
Marty Bodnar, the previous head of ticketing, for all of his bone headed decisions during his tenure, at least listened to student feedback. I served on the Rackham student government to improve collaboration between students and the athletic department. I really feel for student basketball fans. You guys got hosed.
Hey. Keep in mind that "at least one hour before kickoff" would be late for ND (and I'm anticipating for Neb and OSU) this year depending on what seats you're expecting/ wanting.
"Where is the damn effort."
Just curious, why do you think attending a recreational event should require effort?
walking your ass down kipke is not that much effort. I have bowel movements that take more effort.
Yes, it does when I look across to old section (28) from section 41 in the same row I sat in my last year at Michigan and seeing the top half completely empty because some undergrads couldn't put down their solo cups.
No, it isn't. But that's not exactly all that's involved.
For example, I'm not in a frat, but I'd imagine it could get difficult dealing with gameday logistics under GA for big groups like that.
For an example that does apply to me, instead of arriving an hour early like I did every year prior to this, I now have to play roulette with a few thousand other students in order to get into my preferred spot in section 26 or 27, row 50-70 or so.
I'm not about to write some overly dramatic manifesto like the linked guy did, but it does seem a bit unnecessary to me.
seriously, all I hear are excuses.
And that's why we'll never be able to have a reasonable discussion about this.
"Excuses" implies that students have done something wrong they need to account for. I just disagree with that. I'm not one of your high school students, and I don't need to answer to you. I enjoy going to Football and Hockey games, so I go to them. I really don't feel obligated to go to them though.
When your reasons for not showing up on time is involves the molecular formular of CH3CH2OH, it is ringing hollow. Seriously, I showed up to every game on time drunk for a good majority while also working on a thesis. It all comes down to time management.
I used to think the same as you did a couple years ago. I would get all pissy when an alum would get crotchety about the students. Things change when you are paying student loans while also cutting the AD checks for the PSL and season tickets.
If you don't feel obligated then find someone to use them. It was embarrasing to see the half empty student section for Akron. If you don't feel embarrased for your fellow students who fail to show up on time, then we will never agree.
I do not feel embarrassed about that. It's their decision. Obviously I don't agree because I made a different decision, but that's a separate issue. I don't see why I'd ever be embarrassed about that.
So you're saying that now that things are more expensive for you, you're going to act super bitter towards people who are now enjoying what you once did?
wow...are you really this dense? No wonder you have been banned three times before. I weep for our students if they were not ashamed at their fellow students for failing to show up.
I feel bitter because students USED to fill up the stadium even for a noon game against eastern. However, the pregaming with pat culture screwed that up.
Get some perspective.
That stadium would be hilariously quiet without students, and you know it.
Your argument works for football. Not basketball. Student attendance for basketball is much better than general admittance. Obviously the problem for basketball should be handled by giving students the lower tickets if season ticket holders miss a game or two. If the general admittance people don't show up for even one game we should give the rest of their tickets to students. The old fan doesn't bring any passion to the game anyway. Maybe we should just get rid of the lowered tickets for anyone but students. The lower bowl non students are an embarrassment to the school.
Funny cause I see empty seats all over the stadium in pictures from the Akron game. Wasn't the athletic department offering free t-shirts to get people to buy tickets to the Akron game? There sure were a lot of UM fans dressed in red/scarlet at the football stadium when they played Ohio in 2009.
the students should just be happy they get the best seats in the house for basketball and not upper deck behind the hoop. If you want to prove a point show up to every single game and pack the place to over max capacity.
Whatever happened to just going because you like to watch basketball and root for your team? Why do students need a "championship" caliber team to motivate their attendance?