We are becoming Notre Dame

Submitted by Captain Obvious on

MGoBoard-the last bastion of civilized thought in the sports message board world-finally hit a brick wall and has turned into every other sports message board.  Even Brian is calling for certain coaches' heads in the middle of the season, without regard to whether this would actually hurt or help the team.  Where did the patience go?  Where did the rationality go?  Where did the radical idea that coaches and teams should be judged on their body of work rather than a single game go?  When did we stop looking at extenuating circumstances like critical injuries and just start flailing around instead?  When did we start giving up on coaches and players before all the games have been played?

It's entitlement; the same thing that has kept Notre Dame down for years.  We aren't going to win just because we are Michigan.  Parity has come to college football and a large chunk of our fanbase remains unaware.  There's no quick fix.  If we go searching for one soon then our transformation into ND will be nearly complete, needing only another decade of constant rebuilding and unmet expectations to make it official.

I guess I'm the weird one.  I had fun watching the PSU game and didn't get upset when we lost.  I like cheering on the team and my weekend isn't affected by the outcome of the game.  I think there's more to measure a team and its coaches by than wins and losses.  If a college football game makes you genuinely sad and depressed then you probably should find another team or another hobby.  This team will probably make you mad or upset for a few more games this year and many years to come.

To those that have already mentally dismissed the coaches for this year - what if we improve?  Anything can happen in college football and there are still 4 games left to play.  Won't you feel a little silly if we manage to overperform and show signs of improvement?  How about we wait until all the games are played before we give up on the team and coaches?

I know there's at least a few people that think like I do left on the board.  We turned from a majority to a tiny minority overnight.  I wonder what it will take to satisfy this new majority of angry fans?

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 5:01 PM ^

What is there to lose by giving the guy one more year (when his first full recruiting class will be juniors and RS sophomores)? 

A ton.  Next year, we have the combination of a veteran team and favorable schedule that should have us thinking Big Ten title.  But our complete lack of visible progress over the past month now makes that look like a pipe dream.  And if we're going to dumb down expectations for next year - RR's fourth in the program - then it's clear that he isn't the answer.  A program that enjoys 40 consecutive non-losing seasons does not need to go through four years of rebuilding.   When Minnesota holds its coach to a higher standard than that, we've lost our way. 

 

PurpleStuff

November 1st, 2010 at 5:07 PM ^

If we don't win 10 games next year I'll be pissed.  At the same time, Rodriguez deserves a shot with a roster (that he has built) that actually has a legitimate chance to do it (and no roster he's had so far has had a remote shot at being a quality team).

And if you say things like "complete lack of visible progress" I assume you aren't watching when the offense is on the field (or remembering the clusterfuck that was the 2008 offense).  And you've probably forgotten what our 2005 defense looked like as that season went on (meaning teams progress from year to year, not from game to game).

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 5:22 PM ^

No, there has not been meaningful progress.  We are still getting our butts handed to us in league play by teams with a pulse.

In conference game #1, we needed a last-minute TD to squeak by a bad Indiana team.

In conference game #2, we lost by 17 to Sparty at home.

In conference game #3, we lost by 10 to Iowa at home, needing to score three TDs in the fourth to even make it that close.

In conference game #4, we lost by 10 to a PSU team playing with its third-string QB (and a bunch of other injury replacements), again needing a rally to even make it that close.

Yes, we are better in one phase of the game, but overall we're not.  Maybe the solution is this: fire RR but keep his offensive assistants.  That's essentially what MSU did when it fired JLS (Don Treadwell, his OC, is still there).  We didn't hire RR to be an OC.  If that's all he's good at, he's not the answer.

Two years ago, I accepted the 3-9 season because that seemed to be consistent with RR's career pattern.  I never would have expected us to look like this two years ago.  I doubt RR did, either.  The last three years have been a nightmare.  If he doesn't give us a reason to believe in the next four games, he's got to go.  I sincerely hope he does, but I have become skeptical.

PurpleStuff

November 1st, 2010 at 5:36 PM ^

By your logic, a coach who inherits a clusterfuck of a roster on both sides of the ball only gets three years to rebuild? 

The defense has gotten worse because the upperclass talent on the roster has gotten worse (through no fault of the coach who had no hand in recruiting that talent).  Is it really Rodriguez's fault that he can't turn James Rogers into 4 competent defensive backs?  I'm sorry if your expectations aren't tailored to that reality, but if they aren't then you are probably going to be disappointed the rest of the season (including when Rodriguez remains as head coach).

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 7:36 PM ^

By your logic, a coach who inherits a clusterfuck of a roster on both sides of the ball only gets three years to rebuild?

If he loses 80% of his conference games, yes.  And let's stop with the revisionist history.  Lloyd Carr left behind a decent amount of defensive talent.  We went into the 2008 season expecting the D to carry us.  It's not Carr's fault that RR couldn't get them to buy in.  Nor is it his fault that both of the QBs he left behind - as well as a promising OG - transferred.  Nor is it his fault that a whole bunch of other guys, many of them recruited by RR himself, also transferred.  Nor is it Carr's fault that RR targeted a bunch of guys who were academically borderline, and who didn't end up qualifying.

cjffemt

November 1st, 2010 at 5:39 PM ^

I am trying to stay positive as well but, after the last 3 years I am not convinced anything with this team will change.  Yeah we are looking better on the recruiting front, but the problem is even with the top prospects we received from RR's first year and a half here, we have lost far to many due to transfers, and the rest are supposedly not good enough to play.   I really feel strongly that this is a ship that can not be rightened just by getting rid of RR, or even by just getting rid of Gerg.  RR and Gerg both need to go if there is no improvement in the last four games.  A win over OSU would surely help.

MaizeyBlue

November 1st, 2010 at 9:15 PM ^

Also in our 4 conference wins in the RR era we needed:



a 60 run by steven threet, and the greatest comeback in stadium history

a 3rd and 9  ~ 25 yard TD pass (?can't remember the down and distance exactly?)  late against Indiana

a last minute TD drive against Indiana

 

And our amazing last game in the HHH dome :)

nazooq

November 1st, 2010 at 5:45 PM ^

I don't understand what you're getting at regarding the 2005 team.  In that horrible 2005 season, when everything seemed to go wrong, Michigan had the #22 scoring defense in the country and the #36 total defense

In conference games, they allowed 5.3 yards per play, nowhere near the conference's elite defenses, OSU and PSU, but perfectly respectable.

PurpleStuff

November 1st, 2010 at 5:46 PM ^

They gave up a 60 yard run on 3rd and 10 that cost the team the game against Minnesota.  They could do nothing to stop OSU with the game on the line.  They got torched by a Bill Callahan team in a crappy bowl game. 

At no point did they ever look like they would be world beaters a season later.  They didn't get better as the season went along (which seems to be the gripe from people claiming they knew this year's defense would suck but are still suddenly disappointed after PSU). 

Players on that team appeared to have "regressed" (Henne) to fans ignoring context (he lost the best receiver in the country), graduating players did not appear to have developed to their full potential (Gabe Watson), juniors who would be returning starters a year later had continually failed to impress/dominate (Woodley, Harris, Burgess, etc.).  Any of these criticisms sound familiar?  A year later the same guys started 11-0 and went to the Rose Bowl and many made enormous leaps in production. 

nazooq

November 1st, 2010 at 6:45 PM ^

That 2005 team was below average for Michigan under Carr but was still an above average Big Ten team.  They finished 5-3 in the Big Ten.  That Minnesota team that they couldn't stop had an elite rushing attack. And of course that OSU team was very good too.  Simply put, Michigan was mediocre in 2005. 

In 2006, Michigan's defense made the jump to elite and went 7-1 in conference.  Still they had no answer for the best offenses they faced that year, OSU and USC.

Now, Michigan is in a completely different ballpark.  Everyone expected this defense to improve from horrible to slightly less horrible.  Brian:

Michigan manages a modest improvement in yards allowed, getting up to the 60-70 range nationally.

This is now the expectation for 2011.  And it certainly isn't a recipe for anything better than 4-4 in Big Ten play next year.

profitgoblue

November 1st, 2010 at 5:20 PM ^

Do you honestly think a new coach could come in next year and the team would contend for a conference championship? 

Unless the new coach runs the same spread option, there will be a significant step back on the offensive side of the ball.  Denard just learned the offense this year.  What happens if there is a new coach with a new scheme next year?  I would bet that the offense won't put up yards and points to rank up in the top 25.  And will the defense be that much better under a new coach next year?  I doubt it. 

Give Rodriguez one more year.  Let it play out with a full recruiting class.

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 5:26 PM ^

Again - if RR has forced us to lower expectations so much that we can't expect to contend for a conference title when we have 18 starters back and a favorable schedule, then he needs to go.  In 2008, I accepted a 2-6 conference record as the price we had to pay to have success down the road.  I'm not accepting it this year, and I don't think Brandon will, either.

profitgoblue

November 1st, 2010 at 9:29 PM ^

It's clear that some/many have given up on Rodriguez and that's fine. No need to waste time trying to change those minds. I'm focused on trying to enjoy the rest of the season (as much as possible) since soon it will be over and we'll all be wishing it was football again. You know you will, regardless of how the season ends. Let's banter on that topic rather than speculating (read - pretending to know what we are talking about) on coaching changes.

amir_al-muminin

November 2nd, 2010 at 1:06 PM ^

In 2008, I accepted a 2-6 conference record as the price we had to pay to have success down the road.  I'm not accepting it this year...

What would have happened differently if you hadn't accepted a 2-6 conference record in 2008?  Nothing?  Just checking.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here.  It's really annoying when sports fans criticize a coach's performance by saying it is unacceptable to them.  You can criticize RR (fairly) all you want, but unless you are Dave Brandon, please stop acting like your personal standards of acceptability mean anything to anyone.

cjffemt

November 1st, 2010 at 5:29 PM ^

I understand we have young team, there is no debating that fact, but if you look at a DC we had in '08, one SCott Schaffer.  He was fired and blamed for the worst record in school history by RR, why because they were not on the same page as far as what defensive scheme to run?  I look at his Defense at Syracuse, and see what they are doing to schools with at least decent offeses, like Cincy.  They only gave up 7 points on saturday.  Our you too tell me just because of the lack of youth that we are this bad?  I strongly feel that if Scott Schaffer was here our defense could be what Syracuse is experiencing right now.  Am I here to say that this team with the youth we would only be giving up 7 points to Cincy, by no means no, but I would have to say we would not be allowing over 400 yards per game to every team we face.

BigBlue02

November 1st, 2010 at 10:53 PM ^

You realize a great way to see if Scott Shaefer would be a good defensive coordinator here is if we hired him right? We did. He sucked. And we are all mad at firing him because he is a defensive genius right? So do you know what the best idea would be? Fire this defensive coordinator after his 2nd year instead of his 1st. Defensive consistency ftw!

michgoblue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:26 PM ^

If I could +1,000,000 this answer, I would.  I get that some people really like RR and are invested in him.  Great, and I respect their view.  But to completely dismiss anyone who wants to criticize the coach that has presided over the worst period in Michigan football history with such venom is just obnoxious.

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 5:43 PM ^

I like Rich Rod, too.  I think he's a decent person who has recruited upstanding kids and I'm bothered by a lot of the personal attacks made against him.  But we're not a charity case.  If he's not the right guy for the job, he's not the right guy.  He's not getting paid $2M a season for nothing.

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:27 PM ^

Three years ago, absolutely no one would have said anything like this.  If this is what we've been reduced to, we definitely need a change.  Surely there is some poor soul out there who can lead the winningest program in history to a bowl game.

Captain Obvious

November 1st, 2010 at 4:46 PM ^

I have to be emotionally invested in the outcome of games so much that I need to be miserable after a loss?  That makes me a real fan?

I'm pretty sure I went to the same school as you.

I'm pretty sure we root for the same team.

I'm pretty sure I spend the same amount of money to sit in the stands and travel to see games.

I'm pretty sure I cheer the same amount as most fans, win or lose.

I'm pretty sure we obsessively read the same information about the same players on the same website everyday.

The only difference is that I don't go crazy after a loss and generally enjoy life regardless of the outcome of the Michigan football game.  I'm still able to laugh with my family (all OSU fans) when they joke about our bad losses.  I'm able to calmly discuss Michigan football with coworkers and don't get mad when people with less knowledge about the program assume Michigan sucks or whatever.  Get a grip.

WolvinLA2

November 1st, 2010 at 5:02 PM ^

No offense, that's a fine way to go about it, but you are in the minority I think.

When Michigan loses, especially games I think they should win, it ruins my whole Saturday, sometimes my weekend.  When my USC fan brother-in-law brings up "DickRod" and how much he sucks every time I see him, I get mad to the point I want to punch him if it wouldn't result with me sleeping on the couch for eternity. 

I'm not saying you aren't a "real" fan, but don't make it seem like being emotionally invested in wins and losses is such a crazy concept.  You're the weird one here, not us.

Dark Blue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:32 PM ^

This is something I love with a passion few people can understand. BUT me coming to mgoblog and bitching about the corching staff and the players isn't going to acomplish anything.

I love U of M football, basketball, hockey, whatever. But at the same time, what goodt does it do if I come here and rant about this shizz being unacceptable. That makes most people sound like 8 year olds.

MaizeSombrero

November 1st, 2010 at 5:15 PM ^

Nowhere did I say I was for incessant bitching. I'm all aboard the stop whining train. "Choo Choo, not Boo Hoo" that's what I always say.

What I'm saying is that it is acceptable to be upset about losing. It is totally normal to get angry or frustrated when your team can't stop a walk-on from getting a first down on 3rd and infinity.

To recap:

Anger/Frustration/Upsettedness - Fair Game

Bitching/UNACCEPTABLE/etc - Not my cup of tea.

michgoblue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:31 PM ^

Sounds like a guy who loves "watching " michigan football.  Does not sound like the kind of die hard fan that I expect that many in the MGoCommunity are.  If the OP can just watch that wretched game and enjoy it, more power to him.  That is how I feel about several teams that I casually follow.  For me, Michigan is different.  I don't watch Michigan - I root passionately for Michigan, and the outcome of the game does affect my weekend. 

What I enjoy is my passion for the school and for this team, and the way that as an alum, I feel a real sense of pride in our storied program.  So no, I would not want to take a lesson from the OP.  (not an insult to you or the OP, but to me, Michigan football will never be something that I just watch or something where I enjoy watching us lose).

03 Blue 07

November 1st, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^

Agreed. I was pissed off for 3 days after the MSU game. And I'm almost 30.

EDIT: I am in full agreement with WolvInLA2 and the others, not the "ahh, I still love watching even when we get impaled on national tv by a shell of PSU!"

Hannibal.

November 1st, 2010 at 4:23 PM ^

Notre Dame hasn't been bad because they have lacked patience.  They have been bad because:

1.  The first coach that they hired after Holtz had never been a head coach and was a mediocre coordinator.  No search attempt was made.  If anything, he was kept for too long.

2.  The second coach that they hired after Holtz backed into the job, because he cried "racism" and candidate #1 got caught lying on his resume.

3.  The third coach had almost no applicable experience and was another really bad hire

Notre Dame finally hired a coach like you are supposed to.  Michigan will, most likely, not end up in the wilderness if Dave Brandon goes through and exhaustive search and hires a good candidate.

blueheron

November 1st, 2010 at 4:24 PM ^

IMO the annoying part of our fan base has always been a "Notre Dame waiting to happen."  They've shown their true colors over the past couple of years.

It's so bad that even The Onion is on board:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/michigan-at-notre-dame,8462/

Quote: "Perhaps both teams should just forget about the game entirely and have a huge Our-Schools-Are-Steeped-In-College-Football-Tradition-Orgy right there on the field."

- - -

For the record, I think you can be anti-RichRod and still be a reasonable fan.  My post is directed at the unreasonable group.

michgoblue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:37 PM ^

How do you differentiate between the reasonable Anti-RR group and the unreasonable group?

For example, until this past week, I dismissed the "FIRE DICKFRAUD" NOT A MICHIGAN MAN, crowd (i.e. the people who hate him for who he is and not for anything that he has done) as being unreasonable and as being people who would never be pleased with RR, even if we won a NC.

By contrast, there were a small amount of RR critics out there who gave actual examples of things that RR did that they believed to have negatively affected the program.  Even though I strongly supported RR, I believed that these people were reasonable and on some issues made good points.

Over the past 2 weeks, I have seen an increase in the number of what I consider to be the more reasonable RR critics and an actual decrease in the "FIRE DICKFRAUD" crowd.  Most of the criticisms that fans both on this blog and in other arenas seem to be lobbing are based in examples - poor play calling, a team that is not improving over the course of a season (which a young team should), special teams disasters on a weekly basis, excessive penalties in numerous games, an offense too focussed on a single player that cannot stand up to real defenses. 

blueheron

November 1st, 2010 at 4:52 PM ^

What you said, largely ... I don't have that many rock-solid rules.

When I hear some aging bag of wind (the type that might have said "Plastics, son" in the late '60s) sound off about *tradition* at a tailgate, I think "Unreasonable."  When I hear concerns about RichRod's cognitive capacity and administrative ability (example: GERG), I think "Hmm ... reasonable."

"RichRod doesn't understand the importance of the OSU rivalry!"  Unreasonable.

"Are we sure he did the necessary behind-the-scenes homework before chasing Dorsey?"  Reasonable (I think).

sheepman

November 1st, 2010 at 4:23 PM ^

I almost came here to write a rude and cuss-filled comment because you were going to fill this with complaints about the downfall of UM.

After I read this, I think you and I have come to the same conclusion. Yesterday I was driving along with a dark cloud over my head, pissed and embarassed about the year. Wondering how I was going to face my father in law (UM grad, RR hater) or my brother (OSU grad - RR lover).

And then it dawned on me. I fucking love Michigan. I love the university, I love the town, I love the Big-house. I love "the victors" and the banner. I love it when they play Hells Bells in the round up.  I love it all. So we are having a down year. It sucks, rather be winning, but whatever. I will be blue forever. If RR is the coach, I hope he does well. If they get a new coach, I will support the new hire and hope he does well.

Go Blue. We are Michigan. Be proud. On the down years, be proud of our team. Then when they come up and win a NC, you will be even prouder.

 

 

Blue_Sox

November 1st, 2010 at 4:30 PM ^

There is nothing about that defense that is worthy of pride. If anything, it is my pride that makes me so angry when we lose. I can be all in and root for Michigan to win and also demand better than the results we've been producing.

SFBlue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:29 PM ^

It's tough to win when a program is beset by turmoil from a coaching change.  Charlie Weiss never recovered from the instability following Ty Willingham's departure.  ND has a roster full of 4 and 5 star guys and they just lost to Tulsa at home. 

The right approach is to wait until the season is over before reaching any conclusions.  Those advocating firing Rodriguez or even GERG will feel foolish if Michigan bounces back against Illinois and Purdue. 

I am not buying into this "hot seat" bullshit.  It's counter-productive, and a distraction.  Denard Robinson had a very good game against Penn State, and the offensive is good enough to keep them in every game they have left.  Let's give Michigan and Rodriguez our support over the next four games and see what they can do. 

UM Indy

November 1st, 2010 at 4:32 PM ^

We've been playing catch up the last three games.  It's not like the vaunted Michigan offense has come out and jumped all over anybody.  On the other hand, if for some reason the offense did get us a lead, it's not like the defense could hold it.  It's a TEAM problem and I just don't think Rich has, or will have, the answers.  Acknowledging that the experiment didn't work out is a lot different than having 4 (+1 for a day) coaches in ten years.

aawolve

November 1st, 2010 at 4:36 PM ^

He's certainly part of the problem, and more governed by his emotions than I initially thought. Dude has been posting "Harbaugh's awesome" and "100% must win" garbage links in mgolicious for a while now, and people are eating that shit right up. This is less than 3 years from hire. The PSU loss was disturbing, but Brian was already over it before that even happened. The most interesting aspect of people giving up on RR is that many of them argued that 4 years is is the minimum, but somehow have completely changed their phiolosophies in the last few weeks. All of our losses so far were probably predicted by this very board in the pre seaon, and everyone was ok with riding this out then. The only difference between this fanbase and ND is a few years of losing, which is disturbing. Now, back to negging myself to death the way Nic Cage drank himself to death in Leaving Las Vegas. Peace and hair grease.

modaddy21

November 1st, 2010 at 4:42 PM ^

"All of our losses so far were probably predicted by this very board in the pre seaon, and everyone was ok with riding this out then."

That was before PSU's whole D and O line pretty much went down, and they started a former walkon First time starter, oh and we had an extra week to prepare.  This loss just doesn't add up, MSU and Iowa sucked but were understandable, this game was on a whole other level.  Why can't some people see that?  I know Young Defense and all...but damn...F'n Mcgloin  are you serious?

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 4:54 PM ^

Also, I don't think anyone expected to lose to Sparty by 17 on our home field.  That was sobering, but one could rationalize it as an outlier.  Not anymore.  Halfway through conference play, we look very much like a lower-division team.  That was not predicted by many.