On BTN now; 8:00 left.
UM up by 5 and trying for their first win (Seniors) against Li'l Sis.
Go Lady Wolverines.
This feels like the one that'll break the streak............
PLEASE get this win. Nothing would be sweeter. Seeing their arrogant players on twitter after the last meeting saying "that was easy, duh it's Michigan".
The perception of this program is changing though. Michigan needs this win for the tide to starting turning.
Don't let up ladies!!
It is gonna be a classic finish
Negged for thread title. Not for content.
Thanks for letting us know.
The title has been changed.
Anyone for posting info on M sports, but I really can't stand use of the term "lady" Wolverines. They're just wolverines. "Let's go ladies".... Fine. But putting "lady" in front of them is just one of those things that makes me cringe. I'm sure it's no big deal to any of you, and I refrained from negging the post...it's just a buggy thing for me.
...how invested I am in our University.
If we had a checkers team I would watch it on ESPN9.
Gotta make the free throws late
The women's basketball standings are weird. Penn State and Nebraska are the top two in women's basketball but they're the worst at men's. IU and Wisconsin are both at the bottom.
Just beat Sparty.
Fuck yeah! Streak over!!!!
Ice it Jenny!
Very nice win. Moves them to 19-6 overall and 9-4 in the conference. 2.5 games behind Penn State.
I am just wondering what proportion of the MGoBlog/Michigan fan base (or indeed any similar sportsfan group) really cares about women's basketball.
The only reason I ask, is from the perspective of whether the University's Athletic Department ought to devote resources there (setting aside Title IX concerns). Naturally, it is nice that women are acitve, that they participate in sports, etc. I am not in any way opposing women's sports. I'm no mysogynist. For instance, I'd rather watch women's golf than about half the men's sports on television, if forced to choose. I'd happily and eagerly choose women's golf, over extreme fighting, or poker, or any of the other variety of garbage that passes for sports on tv.
But women's basketball is just so deadly boring to me. It's like watching a team of very good 7th grade boys. I'd much rather watch the boys from Detroit Southeastern play Pershing, than watch the women of Michigan versus the women of Ohio State. I'd be much more interested to watch 9th grade AAU boys play, than watch a women's NCAA game.
I know that this is politically incorrect; but that is precisely why I am saying it. I am not judging anyone's worth, I am just asking other sports fans what they will choose to watch, if given the choice. I'd watch C-SPAN before I'd watch women's basketball.
Normally no I don't watch women's basketball.
Here is the solution: DON'T WATCH!!
Seriously. What kind of Michigan fan is talking about this just after the team has ended that damn streak.
If this were a sport that I cared about, it would have been a much bigger deal, to me and probably to many others. I like the general idea of Michigan beating MSU and/or OSU in horseshoes, tiddly winks or cribbage.
And no, I don't watch women's basketball. All I aksed is whether anybody else did. And that was an honest question. What was the paid attendance at the game?
Here's the really funny thing; my comments in this thread won't draw much attention, for the very reason that they are buried in a thread on Womens Basketball. Which few care about.
And let's be clear; I am just asking about people's preferences. Again, I'm not judging.
Dave Brandon concerns himself with the broader market for sports. He openly admits that sales, marketing, ticket prices and such in the revenue-generating sports are all things that he considers in the wider market that includes professional sports in southeast Michigan.
How dare you have a question about the attendance at Women's Basketball or the viewership! Clearly, you hate Michigan, and want all women's sports to be shut down!
No don't care. I agree with you and have said many times that a decent (not great...just decent) 9th grade boys AAU team would crush the women's national champions. Because the ladies play about a foot under the rim and boys in 9th grade can dunk.
The game sold out, which means the entire lower bowl was full. I was there and I think I must have got the last three tickets. My boys and I had to sit next to a smelly fat guy who wouldn't move to let us past his seat.
It was fun despite Chubs McGee. However, most women's games bring half the attendance if that.
I put it in another post. "5800" was the claimed attendance by the Athletic Department.
FSU's women's team play several times a year.
I'd rather watch MY Almer Mater "play checkers" than answer a benign question asking why I choose to do so.
BTW: I upvoted everyone in this thread for their interest and support of our women student athletes.
that I followed your lead and did the same. There's absolutely no reason, if we're MICHIGAN FANS here, to not show some support for the Michigan Student-Athletes that play in so-called non-revenue sports. Sure, I love me some Michigan Football, Basketball, and Hockey too, but I've also taken in a few Michigan Baseball, Softball, and WBB games, plus a Men's Track & Field meet and even a Volleyball match over the years. Had fun at all of them ---not at the same level, to be sure, as at The Big House, but This Is Michigan FerGodSake!
I have a little higher interest right now in WBB for one particular reason, though--- I am acquainted with the Sheffer family, as Rachel's dad coached my oldest daughter several years ago in girls (13- and 14-yr old) fastpitch softball. Nice family. I remember seeing Rachel playing a couple times on adjoining diamonds while watching my own daughter play on a team that included Rachel's older sister Sara. It was obvious even back then that both Sheffer girls were very good athletes. It's been a bit of a bonus for me to see a local kid do well for Michigan.
Congratulations to Michigan's Women on beating the Spartans today. Well Done!!
I will watch anything Michigan. Not as enjoyable as the guys team but today was a pretty entertaining game. I went to a high school boys game this week that featured two kids committed to Bethune Cookman, one to EMU, and another to South Florida. It went into OT and was an ok game for the average viewer. But if anybody cares about the fundamentals and strategy, it was a tire fire compared to the top women's college games. The girls know what they are doing despite not being able to dunk or run the court in less than 4 seconds. As long as your expectations are not crazy, it can be very enjoyable.
As for how much resources we should put towards the program, I think that is an idiotic question. The resources you have for the men's team are going to benefit the women's program as well. It is also one of the few sports outside of football and men's bb that you can make a profit from. Unconn and Tenn make a killing off women's bball. Obviously we probably can't make that much, but we can still make some money off the program. I think it is important to help your programs outside of fball and bball b/c Michigan is a big enough brand that we can finish outside the red in more sports than just the big two, which is something not many athletic departments can boast of.
Your first paragraph is a good one. Certainly, nobody needs to apologize for liking women's basketball. Not to me, not to anyone. Your own comment on the qualities of play is pretty astute.
Your second paragraph is not so bad, but it really speaks to part of what bothers me. If Tennessee and UConn can "make a killing" off of women's basketball, I say more power to them. I'd like to know exactly how they make a killing. Attendance? Does any sport in the world "make a killing" off in-person attendance? Do they make a killing off TV revenue? Is there a single television contract anywhere in the world for "Womens Basketball?" The NCAA forces CBS to take women's NCAA Final Four basketball along with the billion-dollar men's contract. The Big Ten Network wouldn't be able to live, off of women's basketball. No network could. Even the WNBA was subsumed into the real NBA. WNBA couldn't make it on its own. Almost everywhere (including, I'd argue, Tennessee and Connecticut), women's basketball lives off of, and in the shadows of, men's basketball.
Michigan's WBB program is a money-loser, I'm confident. I just don't know how big of a loser it is. Although we'd also want to be quick to point out that we've got a student-athlete study center, training facilities, medical staff, ticket office staff, prmotional staff, and a major basketball arena, and, uh, a large research + undergraduate university, all of which can be repurposed for "women's" basketball as easily as "men's" basketball.
It just gnaws at me; Brandon's matter-of-fact pronouncements that the football program, and all of its pricing and promotions, etc., need to compete in the sports marketplace of the larger commercial market. Meanwhile, a bunch of Title IX-protected sports do not. They do not support themselves. Ask the Detroit Lions; they don't need to support eleven women's sports teams. [In fairness, I suppose one difference is that the Lions pay property taxes and payroll taxes. So, okay. But for a long time, their stadium was pretty much as publicly (bond) funded as was Michigan Stadium. I digress.]
There are only two programs that are capable of supporting themselves. Maaaybe men's hockey too. So should we not support any of the other programs? If it really bugs you that much, stop going to football games. Don't know what else to tell you. Title IX is a fact of life so we might as well try to make some money, however minuscule, off of women's bball and every other typically non revenue sports. Your complaint isn't just inherent of women's bball but of 90% of our athletic programs. Don't single out just the women.
And I am pretty certain Uconn girls bball makes money outside of just attendance. I do not see them giving him 1.5 mil a year otherwise.
Complaining about funding the women's program is still silly b/c the support staffs (training, marketing, event staff etc) are largely the same for men. Facilities are the same. Outside of coaching staff, travel and scholarships for women I do not see much other funding specifically for the girls team. Complain about field hockey or other stand alone women's sports.
Actually, ESPN does the women's tournament. CBS does the Men's one.
Unless I have some sort of connection, then I don't watch it.
However, my high school has a bigger student section for the girls team than the guys team, partly because our girls team is state champion caliber and our guys are bad though. But I would watch them because when you know someone on the team or have some sort of school connection, it becomes much more enjoyable, and that goes for a lot of other things.
We watch. My kids watch. I love that any womens sports are available for my kids, because my kids are female and I appreciate the role models for athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. they watch football and don't get why they can't play. I know it's just how things are, and they will learn that too, but they love sports and can be empowered and learn so much from being a part of it. Obviously the same numbers aren't watching, but there is a cultural thing that is gradual, so while it will never rival the bigger sports, I personally feel very strongly that its important to include these sports in the mix of programming.
I also enjoy watching the sport, even with the obvious differences (above vs below the rim). Frankly, its just an entirely different game. Most people I know who also enjoy it are not on sports blogs responding. So my guess is that many of the people on MGoBlog will not feel this way...but then again, those reading this thread clicked on a WBB thread, so there's that...
Anyhow...my 2 cents.
Intellectually I agree with virually everything you wrote but my issue is simply the quality of play, even at the highest level, is generally average at best and can be quite poor and that drives me insane. I don't think making a simple lay-up should be difficult for any basketball player from the age of about 12 on and yet if you watch any women's game (and I do many any) you'll see multiple layups missed and missed badly. You'll see shots that would get a 7th grade boy parked on the bench made with some frequency (I especially love the blind fling it up shot that Kobe would struggle to hit with regularity) that hits nothing but air.
Why? Why are the simple fundimentals of the game so challenging? I truly dont understand it because when I watch other womens sports like tennis or golf or swimming or softball I see elite athletes playing at a level that most men would find impossible to achieve but when it comes to basketball the quality of play is candidly awful.
And that's what keeps me from caring. I guess I feel that if the athletes cant be even average why should it interest me and judging from the number of emply seats watching the games I'd say that feeling is pretty widespread.
There will always be that argument; it "empowers" women as role models, participants, etc. Eh. Whatever.
Eating broccoli is good for me, too. But I don't order it at Mr. Joe's Bar when I am there to watch the game. And the game I will be watching at Mr. Joe's Bar won't be a women's basketball game.
btw; at MGoBlue.com the report is a "season-best crowd of 5800" saw the Michigan-MSU game today. Go there, click on the Women's Basketball homepage link, and look at the picture of the Michigan-Slippery Rock game. #11, "Sam" Arnold is at the free throw line. See if you can count more than 50 spectators in the photo. No fair including the band. But I'm not sure if there are fifty, even with the band.
"Eh whatever". I sincerely hope you don't have daughters. You don't need to order broccoli. People with these attitudes should order lots of fatty red meat and French fries.
Singlehandedly, I might just make this the most-read and most-commented women's basketball thread on MGoBlog.
Rich Rod posts are scant these days so maybe you found something else to bitch about.
Really; just go fuck yourself.
In the past, I've refrained from this sort of reply. Instead, I'd report assholes like you to the Moderator-sticky. But that didn't seem to work.
I'll bet that this gets your post, and this reply, taken down. Which will be a good, simple outcome.
There's nothing above that would need to be taken down; this, on the other hand, got closer.
Leave them both up, or take them both down. Either way it's fine.
was your post any type of equivalent to his. Let me be 100% clear on this: if any moderating action needed to happen in this thread it would be directed at you.
The personal attack posts need to stop, now. While we're at it with the moderation stuff, so does coming into a thread to ask who "really cares" about the sport it's intended for, going on to call said sport "deadly boring" and then gloating that you got people to reply to your attempt to stir up controversy.
One of the reasons MGoBlog isn't a good place to post about women's basketball, women's gymnastics, etc. is because all too often someone feels it necessary to make the "who cares" type of comment you're talking about or some other type of condescending remark. Collectively, those posters have made this a unwelcoming environment for fans of those sports. Setting up sub-blogs for the other sports, which is apparently what Brian eventually plans to do, seems to be the only solution to this, as one would assume these yahoos would never venture into an area dedicated to a sport they despise. Then again, they're yahoos, so I wouldn't put it past them...
I believe it was a guy with fourteen points, seven of which he got from posting drivel in a softball thread. We're supposed to email Brian when a ban comes up and I was unsure (read: nervous) what he would have to say about deleting a three year old account over that thread, but he was more than supportive. Since then I've tried to make sure to get out in front of the truly dumb comments in non-revenue posts and do what I can to keep the board a good place for non-football, basketball and hockey discussions.
I don't want to overstep my role and I think the posters did a good job handling the mini-controversy above; that's a good example of the current system working, I think. I wouldn't have said anything about it unless I needed to post anyway, but unfortunately a lot of threads need a bit more than the user moderation system allows for.
I disagree to a degree about how well the user moderation system worked here or generally works in cases like this one. In the end, a thread that should have been about celebrating a major achievement for a Michigan team has turned into a thread dominated by a "mini-controversy" incited by someone who had no business posting in the thread in the first place.
Let me put it this way: Imagine a Michigan women's basketball fan stumbling into MGoBlog for the first time and landing in this thread. Do you think that person would ever return?
By the way, kudos for the job you've done as a mod so far. From what I've seen, you're handling that thankless duty very well.
I think this was very borderline up until the first post I replied to. It's a balance between allowing a reasonable range of discussion (which I see as the users job to vote on) and stopping the stuff that's just there to troll people (my problem). That line is pretty much all opinion, and I'll readily admit I can be mistaken or flat out wrong, so I can understand not agreeing there.
I do appreciate the compliment, especially from someone I have a lot of respect for on here. Using the last clause to segue a bit, your second paragraph will stick with me. I think that's an interesting way to look at things, and isn't something I would have come by on my own.
Who does it look like was dissuaded from posting in threads like the again....people trolling the thread or people posting valuable non-mainstream content? Trolls got a "don't do it again or else....I'll say don't do it again or else next time too!" The other side got "if I post about the biggest win in Women's basketball in years I'm going to not only get people trolling the thread, but taking credit for the thread's success." Eventually there has to be consequences for repeat performances, or the wrong type. Of people are going to ignore the site.
BTW, congrats ladies.
Clearly, "Rich Rodriguez" is a topic that is as selectively moderated as "politics."
It's quite alright; I get it. The MGoBoard is like a saloon. The standards of enforcement aren't going to be mathematical, nor even as rigorous as a court of law. It's all about keeping the peace among that particular group known as "patrons."
Irrationally complaining about women's bball in a WBB thread after we just won a big game against our rival and then idiotically boasting about driving up interest in the topic single-handedly (in a thread that was already the most frequented WBB w/o your "input") would make you the asshole IMO.
But you can feel free to report me to the mods. I'd be happy to answer any questions they have for me. There's a reason why you probably weren't getting results by reporting others though.
And how you contribute to this board. How bout you go sit your fat ass on a bar stool, watch some Pistons, order some wings and put lots of ranch on them...hell, add some bacon too. Flirt with the waitress in the short skirt and give that cute little Bevis laugh I know you have. Classy.
Just because the masses aren't interested doesn't mean no one is. Get over yourself. Stop reading and responding like a dick to things you claim no interest in.
That is all.
let's limit the fat jokes and the I hope you die from heart disease jokes, preferably to zero from here on out.
I would never intentionally imply that. I just want everyone to find their own personal happiness! If it's bacon cheddar fries and a trampy waitress, who am I to judge!
Sorry..I got a bit pissy.
I had a legitimate question however that got trampled and then unanswered in this catfight. Seriously - I dont care if you're a fan or not, why is women's basketball generally bad? I can name a ton of women's sports that you would never know (or even care) you were watching woment vs men cause the quality of play is so similar but when it comes to women's basketball the game play itself is just plain awful. Why is that? Why when I watch "elite" women's teams play do I get treated to layups that don't touch the rim and uncontested shots from 6 feet out that miss everything?
That is why I will happily watch women's softball, soccer, golf, tennis, gymnastics, swimming and countless other sports but hate watching women's basketball. It has nothing to do with being sexist - it has to do with hating to watch crappy basketball played.
Well none of those things you listed happened yesterday. Watch the highlights. Both teams made some tough shots.
B/c most girls don't have great verticals, most layups are contested. Look at McGary and Morgan - they have missed their fair share of bunnies this year. Does that make the men's team unbearable?
I agree w/ you that bad girls bball can be tough to watch. My high school's girls team is wretched. Just awful. Can't get through a game. But I cant get through a game of the jr high guys' team either b/c they don't run an offense, just run and chuck and turn it over. That is typical of jr high boys unless you get to AAU - but those are all the good kids together.
I have watched a few of the Michigan women games. And I've watched a few other women's games. I have enjoyed them b/c fundamental ball has been played. Is it an inferior product compared to men's? Yes. Moreso than say women's soccer to men's? Yes. But it is not the tire fire you are making it out to be.
Yes, lay ups are missed, but women are shorter than men, so their distance to the basket is further. The game is very different because of this fact. It's just a different game altogether. What you see as crappy basketball, is likely that you haven't seen it as much as you've seen the men's game too. There is plenty of shitty basketball played by men's teams too, but I guarantee you watch more of it, and the fact that when the men's teams are playing well, that flash of a game played largely above the rim erases your memory of less than ideal play. Similarly, women have bad and good moments.
You watch less womens bball. Ok. You don't like it. Cool. It is simply a different sport. I thought I did give my opinion, sorry if I didn't.
Thanks for your response. Actually I coached girl's basketball for several years so I've had a chance to watch it up close and personal if you will. I had the pleasure of winning a game 6-2 in a girl's "elite" travel team tournament when my daughter was in 5th grade. I was also an assistant coach on her 7th grade team cause the head coach was absolutely clueless on what to do and asked for help. I don't dislike girl's basketball. I dislike bad basketball and the two seem to more the same than different IMO.
Serious question for you though and I'd love to hear your honest answer. Do you believe the quality of play (women's basketball vs men's basketball) is similiar to the differences in the other sports I listed? I don't, obviously, and I think therin lies why attendance is so much higher and comparable to men's in the other sports. The quality of play is roughly the same (tennis, golf, gymnastics, soccer, swimming,ect) so people come to watch in roughly the same numbers. The quality of play in basketball is radically different and hence, the number of people "caring" is radically different.
And the bigger question to me is why? Is it just size? And if so does the solution lie in simply lowering the rim?
I'll hang up and listen.
why not complain about the men's gynastics team and the mens wrestling team. no one gives a shit about them either.
WTF is your point?
Because today's men's gymnastics meet at OSU was the first men's meet televised (the women's gymn. team is at least streamed on line most meets, the men's not even streamed, though they're both in the top 3 nationally), I called a local bar and asked if they got BTN and could spare a TV. I sat at the bar next to a few Columbia students, who said "You're the one who called about gymnastics!" They were there to socialize, but they watched a bit. And later I noticed a couple other guys standing in the middle of the room, just there to swig a beer or two, glued to the screen. Watching really, really good gymnastics transfixed them. And they didn't even ask why the hell the TV was showing gymnastics.
PS: I listened to the women's bball audio stream at home first, and I must say the audio was plenty exciting.
PPS: Both men's and women's gymnastics teams won today too.
See, I actually think the same way about a lot of these sports as the rest of you. I don't watch much B1G wrestling, but I'm glad it is on the BTN. I like the BTN. I'd watch a bit of wrestling, especially a conference championship. And who wouldn't admire the gymnastics? Isn't Michigan's men's gymnastics in grave danger, over Title IX pressures? I hope I'm wrong about that.
Anyway, I honestly could watch a lot of those sports, like watching the Luge or the Biathlon in the Olympics. I'd watch for the curiosity, and for the personal stories, and for the competition significance if there were any. (So a lot of those criteria might arguably have applied to today's game with the Spartettes.) Good kids, working hard, representing the M.
But women's basketball is a fail with me because it is such a poor substitute for men's basketball. That's the problem. And it is interesting, because women's golf holds such a fascination for me. Today, an absolutely riveting women's golf story was playing out on the Golf Channel, wherein the 15 year-old Lydia Ko of New Zealand is setting the golf world on fire in the Australian Women's Open. I watched that, instead of the US PGA Tour playing at one of my favorite tracks in all of golf, the fabulous Riviera in Pacific Palisades.
I shouldn't stat a Michigan vs. ohio WGYM thread?
If you're interested!
there's no more appropriate place in the world to host a Michigan women's gymnastic open thread.
Some of the very best human interest stories -- and many of the most inspiring -- are the personal stories of student-athletes who are in the non-revenue sports. Men and women. Or the walk-ons in the revenue sports. And MGoBlog is not only a good place for that; it is a big part of what makes MGoBlog a superior source of Michigan athletics news.
Love seeing the way this program has developed over the last few years. Kim Barnes Arico is doing a great job and hopefully she'll keep the program moving forward. Interested to see how the rest of the season plays out for this team.
As of 2/11, Michigan was an 8 seed according to bracketology. MSU was a 7 seed so this was a big win over another potential bubble team. Wins against Illinois and @ a ranked Purdue team also boost our resume. We have two more chances at big wins against Nebraska and @PSU to cement our place in the tournament, along w/ the B1G tourney, if we do not slip up against N'W or @ OSU. Could be back to back tourney trips for the first time since 2000 & 2001
Michigan is well above the bubble at this point. It would take a complete late-season collapse for them to not get into the tourney.
Great win today. Impressive crowd at the game as well—much lower percentage of Spartan fans compared to previous Michigan-MSU games at Crisler.
Really impressed with Nya Jordan's play. She must be one of the most improved players in the conference this season.
Ryan was on fire. Great way for the seniors to end their careers. Go Blue!!
I had intended on watching this today and then forgot all about it when I woke up. Great win, wish I could have seen it. And for the debate above, I will watch any Michigan sporting event above any NBA, MLB, and most other sporting events. I've watched entire soccer, water polo, wrestling, and gymnastics games on BTN. As awful as the production value seems to be most of the time during games, I am very grateful for the chance to see all of these sports and I can't wait for hockey and lacrosse to have a bigger presence.
it was a great win for Michigan and very fun to watch, IMO.
I currently have on the gymnastics meet.
I don't watch women's bball games all that often, but I'd much rather do so than watch the NBA.
Women's bball is weird.
IU isn't better. But Penn State has always been a top team.
I celebrate all wins over State. Excellent!