Although I think Kugler will push Glasgow very hard at C, and take over full time by 2015.
Way-To-Early Projected 2014 Offensive Line?
Everyone knows Kalis is transferring to Ohio...
Thanks for the morning LOL.
My thoughts exactly. 4 sophomores and a walk-on junior and everyone will still expect them to win a NC. I will go so far as to say Kugler may take the job from Glasgow by the end of 2014. What a nice problem to have...
Those geniuses at Stanford have a secret weapon:
Four seniors on the offensive line.
about how good our OL coaching is. However, unless and until we get to the point where we are able to put a line out there that has upperclassmen on the interior, we won't truly know. In particular, I think many people underestimate the importance of an experienced and talented center, something we haven't had since Molk graduated.
What about last year's line? Two RS juniors at tackle and three RS seniors on the interior.
Not a Stanford expert and I know they put some guys into the NFL off their line but did they have the same experience on the 2012, 2011, and 2010 lines? They have been 12-2, 11-2, and 12-1 the past 3 years. And in Harbaugh's 3rd year where they went 8-5 they knocked off top 10ish USC and Oregon. Does anyone believe this team we have in AA would knock off the equivalent of two teams ranked 7th and 10th in Hoke's 3rd? And before you give me cupboard is bare nonsense Harbaugh took over a 1-11 team. Let's be realistic - coaching matters.
If you could control the clock averaging 4/5 yards a pop on the ground and play a break don't bend defense I don't see why not.
Plus that have that one kid with the photographic memory who knows every call and memorized the entire playbook on like the 3rd day of practice his freshman year.
We had 3 seniors on the oline last year. We were one more senior away from being a truly dominant oline.
You're missing like 3 or 4 guys. We don't just start 5 guys on the line during a game. Who do were rotate two after the first two series in Game 1 don't go well?
I'm kind of stumped everywhere. Seriously, out only two good o-lineman are seniors. I have no idea what our line will look like next year, but I'm not optimistic
Seems to/two/too early to write off next year. Not impossible that the guys improve significantly and then you'd have the relative strength of the line grouped together in the middle with the weakness spread outside where it ought to be easier to help with TEs and RBs. That is a much better situation.
"the staff has proven that they are completely inadequate in developing any sort of talent"
What the hell are you talking about? They took a squad that had never won more than 7 games and won a BCS bowl. I'm guessing guys like Will Campbell disagrew with your assessment, and I'm pretty certain there's a direct quote from Mike Martin saying that this staff is light years ahead of the previous in terms of developing talent. People forget that this is one of the youngest teams in cfb, yet somehow expect sophomores and freshman to play like juniors and seniors. Some of them are. But the number one problem on this team is youth, not coaching.
All the examples you mention are on the defensive side. I think most people's concerns are among the offensive staff.
Even though I have sounded the "the offensive line has shown zero development!" horn around here before, I think realistically it's too early to really tell whether or not the offensive staff can get the job done. Not seeing any real improvement over the course of the season doesn't make me terribly confident, but I'm a pessimist at heart.
I'm already in the next year there are no excuses camp although most will say 12 months from now "JUST WAIT UNTIL 2015!!!" There are 10 guys in the 2012-2013 classes. You throw Bryant and Glasgow on top of that and you have 12 prospects, all that will be in the program in their 2nd, 3rd or 4th year. If the coaching staff cannot put together a viable OL - I am not saying a top 20 OL, I am saying an AVERAGE BIG 10 line with that much raw material to work with, there are no excuses about youth. If you cannot coach up 5 kids out of 12 from two of the best OL classes across the country to be competent, you have no right to be at the University of Michigan. Especially if its a repeat of this year where the team on August 28th looks identical to the one on November 4th. It means you cannot do a thing with players unless they are juniors or seniors and if that's all you can do I can find a decent MAC level coaching staff to accomplish the same for 1/7th the price.
p.s. for what it is worth I'd be excited if Dawson grabs a guard spot as I loved his mean streak during all these hype recruit pieces. That said Kalis supposedly has a mean streak and has been effectively neutered by this staff.
I know these guys aren't lineman, but the production they have gotten out of Gallon, Funchess, and Butt at his age are all improvements. It would be hard to argue they didn't develop them. Lewan and Schofield were already good, but they have improved as well. The RB position has been up and down, but that's hard to blame on the RB...same with the QB. The probelms with development are really specific to 3 positions (left guard, center, and right guard). Unfortunately it appears those three positions are really important and we can't do squat when they suck.
I totally agree about Gallon, Funchess (though his improvement probably has a lot more to do with eliminating blocking from his responsibilities than actual improved skill sets), Butt, etc. all look good. There are definitely every encouraging spots on the offensive side of the ball. WR especially seems like a good group.
I'm not sure I'd say Lewan and Schofield haven't regressed this season, but that's hard to parse out from the fact that they're lashed to the train wreck that is the rest of the line. I also probably wouldn't heap all the QB and RB woes on the line; it's been a long time since I feel like I've seen a RB really grow and develop over the course of his time at Michigan, and I personally feel like both Denard and Gardner seem to regres the more time they spent under Borges. (Gardner seems to be kind of turning the tide, a bit, since his TO plagued performances earlier in the year, though.)
Has Funchess improved? I am sure he could catch the ball as a HS Jr. He cannot block. It has been 1.75 years and he still cannot block. Where is the improvement? He seems to have improved simply be taking him away from a spot where his weakness is exploited. As for Gallon IMO he has been Gallon for a few years - he just has a QB now who gets him the ball a lot more. But others may disagree. I dont see a lot of improvement in Lewan year over year... Schofield maybe.
Agree with Funchess. He's a guy who's been seeing the field for close to 20 games now and his blocking doesn't seem likes it's improved one bit.
Precisely why I said, "though his improvement probably has a lot more to do with eliminating blocking from his responsibilities than actual improved skill sets."
But I'm still generally pleased with the WRs as a position group.
Pfft, the cool kids have already moved on to next next year.
2015 or bust!
(Sad part is, there is probably more truth than I'd like to admit to that statement.)
One of the problems with this whole development/next year talk is recruiting. Because the kinds of players RR recruited are so different we have seen an increase in talent every year under Hoke. So, we continue to be excited when the next group on incoming freshman are ready to play. Originally I was really excited for the '12 class of defensive players to be juniors...guys like Wilson, Richardson, RJS, Ross, Bolden, and Pipkins. It already seems Richardson and RJS will never see significant snaps. Bolden hasn't improved much, Pipkins is out for the year, and only Ross and Wilson seem to be developing. But, then the '13 is all about when are those o-lineman gonna be ready? And, when is Lewis, Green, McCray, Charlton, Morris, etc. gonna be ready? But, you know what...amost every one of those positions has an even higher rated recruit coming in next year like potentially Hand, Peppers, Ferns, Speight, etc. That is both a blessing and a curse. But, next year will be the first year Hoke's recruits will be upperclassman. So, I think slowly over the next 3 years we will stop waiting for next year and improve slighly as our young talent gets older. But, the reality is this won't end for at least 2 more years at a minimum. The question is still will they develop, and there certainly is cause for concern, but there is still time coming for this argument to get flushed out.
I don't disagree. But "youth" and "will improve next year" have been the refrain for so many seasons now, that quite frankly I'm starting to just ignore that as an explanation, regardless of how justified it may be.
I agree with you and it's frustrating, but what highly ranked kid has yet to develop that is an upperclassman? I can't think of any. We seem frustrated with Kalis, but he's young. We are frustrated with Bosch, but he's young. We are frustrated with Bryant, Glasgow, and Miller, but none of them are really 4-star type of recruits. I guess Gardner is probably the one criticism that has actually regressed and that is a real head-scratcher because he seemed better last year with less practice and less experience than he has now. But, is it his fault of the o-line?...hard to say. On defense I have been frustrated with the entire line, but none of them are 4-star type of recruits (at least not at the position they are playing). At LB, the only JR/SR are Ryan, who's fantastic, and Morgan, who is not a 4-star type. On the backend Countess is really a RS Soph coming off an injury, Taylor is not a 4-star, neither is Gordon, and Wilson is sitll a sophomore So, although I agree, the experienced guys are not 4-star types or higher & the talent is younger. Gardner is really the only head-scratcher but it's hard to say it's all him.
Out of the the blue thread but I'll bite. Left to right: Magneson-Bosch-Kugler/Glascow-Kalis-Braden. Dawson and Bryant will be in it to.
Every Roh is probably correct. I have been thinking Magnuson-Bosch-Glasgow-Bryant-Kalis though. Not as what I think the OL will be, but what I want it to be.
Magnuson and Braden at tackles.
Kugler or Glasgow at Center.
Kalis, Bosch, Bryant and Dawson at guards.
This line should be really good if coached up........
So you're predicting we are going to play 7 guys on the line? Maybe we could run for positive yards if we did that!
Well, tackle over isn't working, so maybe he's expecting Borges to go with the heavier 4-guard setup.
Good ole Elizabeth Berkeley... North Farmington High student, to sure if she ever graduated... She's a big Michigan fan. Saw her at the Rose Bowl in the early 90s and missed Wheatley's 80+ yard TD run when I turned to say hello... Regret missing that run live, but Aaaah Jesse.
I was supposed to go with Rod Belding on a whitewater rafting trip, he couldn't make it so his brother Richie took us instead.
I think Kugler is probably the center next year.
Holy crap, this reminds me of how bad we would have been if Lewan went pro.
Could it possibly have been worse? I'd venture to guess that if Lewan had gone pro, the coaches might have coached a tad harder across the board and we wouldn't see this debacle. Who knows.
Then I just don't know what to tell you. You're living in a fantasy land if you think the coaches are just slacking off because Lewan came back and that's the issue with the OL.
Don't feed the troll SC.
aren't we playing Nebraska this week. That should have some bearing as should the rest of the season. If the experience meme is worth anything there are telling reps coming this season still to come.
O'Neill Boren miller Posada Campbell
LT: Mags - Braden
LG: Bryant - Glasgow
C: Miller - Kugler
RG: Bosch - Dawson
RT: Kalis - Braden
I think the coaches will experiment a ton in spring. I only say Miller and Bryant because it makes me feel better having upperclassmen. I'm sure it will not look anything like this but Justice Hayes will look like Reggie Bush 2.0 behind it.
When I say 2.0, I may or may not mean 2.0 YPC average.
No. Kalis is a guard and Magnuson is too light to be a left tackle. From left to right: Braden, Bosch, Kugler, Kalis, Magnuson. Maybe Glasgow keeps the starting center spot, but Kugler has a higher ceiling.
And your more pass pro oriented one at LT. Most teams are right handed (as in: the tend to run right more than left) and the blind side is more important to block in pass pro. Magnuson has the feet for LT. Yes, he still needs to add weight, but I'd be hard pressed to see someone play LT over him at this point.
I know this is 2 years off into the future, but assuming left-handed Shane Morris is playing when Gardner leaves, does that call for the tackles to swap sides? So experience for Magnuson at RT next year would stick him at the position protecting his blind side?
Yes, Michigan would probably flip Magnuson to RT for 2015 if everything goes "according to plan."
The way offensive line plans have been panning out, Peppers is going to be starting at center by the time 2015 rolls around.
I've heard Hoke/Borges are going to petition the NCAA to do away with the oline and have all games be 7 on 7.
I can't even predict what 4-5 offensive lines we'll be running this Saturday...
I could take a couple guesses, and sadly they might all turn out to be correct, too
Most of these offerings put Glasgow in an either/or with Kugler, and unmentioned at guard. This leads me to believe that these proposed lineups have been put together based entirely on recruiting profiles as opposed to performance. Yes, Glasgow is a former walk-on, but he's also been the closest thing Michigan has had to a decent interior lineman this year, and by a pretty wide margin. I'd be shocked if he doesn't start until he graduates.
Highly regarded but unproven prospects usually don't beat out established starters. We went through the same thing a few years ago at safety where every year people would project that Marvin Robinson or some other hyped recruit would beat out Jordan Kovacs, and every year Kovacs would start.
The interior will be much improved, but now the problem will be in the edges - result = everyone attacks is there instead and Borges can't adjust.
I'd go with this this.
I'd rather have weak tackles than a weak interior. You can help out the tackles with tight ends, backs, etc. There's not much you can do on the interior because of the stunts and the size/speed of inside linebackers coming downhill. It's tougher for Fitzgerald Toussaint to take on a blitzing ILB screaming straight downhill than to use leverage and chop block an OLB coming off the edge.
Seems like strength up the middle is generally better. In baseball, you want good pitching, SS and CF play. Hockey success hinges largely on goaltending. In the cold, the human body sacrifices blood to its extermities to keep the core protected.
Not to mention a hockey team is also up a creek with poor center play.
I would be okay with putting Schofield at guard.
Just curious, do you think he would be better to go to LG or RG? LG is where he has played before and would create a strong side of the line to run beyond. RG would more evenly spread out the talent, presumably kick Magnus's son out to his more natural tackle spot and allow him pull next to Lewan. How would you rank these factors in importance:
1) past experience at position
2) bunching strength of line together
3) spreading weakness of line apart
4) displacing out-of-position player
5) placement after pulling
but I bet he isn't until week 3-4, Hoke will shuffle it when we suck, stick to older guys and annoy me.
Once Jon Jansen and the Pet Viking (TM) join the coaching staff, all problems will be fixed.
What about Runyan?
Whatever it is it can't be much worse. But, I also don't think it can be that great either. We will have all the same problems as this year. We we will still be young and we will lose out two seniors. Our interior will be a little more experienced, but still young. I just hope Kalis in year 3 makes a big jump and Glasgow in year 4 with a full year of starts under his belt should also make a big jump. And, I'm hoping the learning curve for our new tackles won't be as difficult as it's been for our interior. But, I'm not overlly confident. Until at least 2015 we will be very young and probably poor run blockers. I just hope even if we aren't great, we are at least competent.
Has there been any indication from the coaches that Kugler is playing well enough to start next year? I've never heard him mentioned by the coaches and the only reason one would assume he starts next year is based on his high ratings in HS. We should know by now that we can't just expect these young linemen to be ready to go by year 2 ( see Kali's, Magnuson, Braden).
LT: Magnus's son
C: Glasgow then Kugler
TERRIBLE! We'll remain terrible until we get a D-1 Line coach that knows what the hell he's doing.
LT - Magnusson
LG - Bosch
C - Kugler
RG - Kalis
RT - Glasgow
Glasgow is going to start. The question is where. I think Kugler starts, as he is a more natural center, and aparently has the head for it. I think Glasgow does too, but get the best five out there. I think Bosch will continue to improve, and Kalis will spend the off-season learning. Bryant may find a way back in, but health, man. Health.
It really matter?....But
If Kugler starts at C next year the line will be significantly better. Book it. I know he is still an underclassmen...but he is a really smart kid who has been conditioned his entire life for this by his father.
Have to find a center that can lead the line. O line struggled last year even with experienced interior(Barnum, Omameh, and Mealer). Nothing against Glagow, I am sure he is good kid and you have to admire walk ons competing at the level he has. But, our line has not been good since we lost Molk. Centers are the second QB on the field.
Fox is coming off of ACL surgery and Kugler is coming off of shoulder surgery, so there's not much info on those guys. I haven't heard anything about Dawson, but I have heard that Bars is struggling mightily.
Glasgow starts at center. I know Kugler has the great recruiting profile, but if was close to cvhallenging to start we would have heard about it. I actually like Kalis as a RT, he has the feet for it. Braden seems like a guard to me.
Can't be worse than this year right?
Boesch doesn't play for Michigan.
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