I feel like inner/outer might be most competitvely balanced.
Vote for Division Realignment on BTN.com
Balanced, yes, but I find it really unfair to the "outer" schools. Basically the newest 4 teams to the conference plus Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa - essentially the rejects division. Traveling would be miserable for those teams.
But OTOH it would preserve all rivalries within the divisions. By doing so, this would allow for more games against teams in the other division. And while travel would be long for half of the intradivision games, the others would be relatively close.
Agree, I just think that we would be singing a different tune if Michigan was geographically alligned in the "outer" division. I want the divisions to be set up for sustainability. I feel like the popular suggestion on this board will just end up being redone in the future.
But there are benefits to the schools in the Outer division, too. The four western schools get guaranteed East Coast exposure every year, which they wouldn't get in an East-West split. For recruiting, that's a big deal.
I would prefer East-West even with the competitive imbalance due to being able to play games in the DC-Virginia corridor (and NJ to a lesser extent).
Probably helps recruiting too to show up in those markets more frequently.
Personally, I'd love to be able to travel to see the games @Maryland.
Yes, but I'm saying that this is where Inner-Outer benefits the Nebraska/Minn/Iowa/Wisc quartet. In the Inner-Outer setup, they get guaranteed East Coast games. In the East/West one, they don't.
As far as Michigan is concerned, as long as we're playing OSU annually, we're in good shape recruitingwise. Ohio is a bigger deal to us than NJ or Maryland.
Posted this on Brian's thread too:
I'm wondering if a stacked Eastern division is better. Recruits know they are guaranteed a number of big games each year. Also, playing at Maryland and Rutgers every other year probalbly helps recruiting.
I think the odds of winning the division are a bit lower in the East/West format, but it also makes for a great number of big games and might help recruiting in some hotbed areas. I'm going east-west.
Personally, I prefer the Inner-Outer division in terms of teams. But I'll take anything with OSU and Michigan in the same division.
Inner-Outer? How the hell does that even make sense?
Edit: I suppose I jumped the gun a bit. Didn't really look at the balance. Just baffled by that map.
The Iris Division and the Sclera Division. BRILLIANT!
(In reference to Inner/Outer)
Inner and outer.....isn't that in reference to belly buttons?
I believe that is "innie" and "outtie" with regards to belly-buttons. Maybe those should be the two names instead of "inner" and "outer" (which sounds stupid).
Michigan and Ohio in same division.
Inner outer by far the best
Inner-Outer seems to be the best solution. In East/West, I feel the West is too weak, Penn State helps the strength of that side in the Outer division.
div. 1- UM and OSU
div. 2- everyone else
AKA Seth's Idea is the consensus preferred option here.
Yeah, I agree. Inner-Outer seems to be the most competitively-balanced. Do schools care about travel distance? I'm sure Rutgers would probably get tired of having to travel to Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, and Minnesota every year.
It only applies to football, so it's not that big of a deal. Rutgers is going to be flying to most destinations anyway.
Maryland, Penn St, and Rutgers get 2 home games and 2 away games each year vs. Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, and Minnesota, that way the traveling is more balanced.
You assume Rutgers and Maryland have fans. There is no evidence these people exist.
This is what I left in the comment box:
"Add Occidental College and Misericordia University to get the LA and Dallas tv footprints."
I live in the chicago area, so I am much in favor of the inner/outer arrangement. I drive to Michigan for football games, but I don't really want to go much further for a game.
I'd much rather keep beating up on Illinois than a post-sanctions Penn State.
Option #1: Existing says names to be determined. Are Legends and Leaders on the way out?
Say it ain't so! /s
I dont ever want to play Rutgers and Maryland. EVER!
my first choice
East West sounds the best as far as division names go, but teams rewritinging their preferred historic rivalries for the sake of division names is......aww hell, anything to get rid of Ledgers and Leadins.
whichever division will give us the most WOW moments.
As long as we are in the same division as OSU, I will be happy.
I voted for East/West, because it seems more realistic than Inner/Outer - though I'd take Inner/Outer in a heartbeat. It does seem to be the most balanced and for our division, anyway, the geography would be great.
strongly prefer inner-outer (after all, I had drawn that up as my prefered divisions even before I saw what Seth had done). I could live with East-West though. Anything but the +1
First 7 teams in the B1G in a division and last 7 in a division? I don't know much of the history when teams joined.
I don't know if we'd want that. We were a charter member in 1895, but then left in 1908 and didn't rejoin until 1917. If you count our rejoin date, we're the 9th member of the conference.
Don't know how I was six minutes behind you on that one.
The only upside of the old v. new alignment would be that MSU and OSU would be in our division. As much as I despise the LIttle Brotherness of so many Spartans I know, I do think they are our second biggest rival and should be in our division. But with that said, I would rather have them in the other division than OSU.
UM left the league from 1907-1916. Would our joining date be 1896 or 1916?
We were a founding member in 1896, but we technically are one of the last 7 to join if you use the 1916 date.
If the B1G used 1916, the last 7 would be: MD, Rutgers, Nebraska, PSU, MSU, OSU, Michigan (so it would essentially be East/West but swapping Nebraska for Indiana).
Anything that will put Michigan and Ohio in the same division. That being said, I voted for inner. More competitively balanced.
I voted for East/West. I think inner/outer would be better for Michigan (and everyone else in the "inner" division that never has to travel very far), but I think East/West is a better move from a conference standpoint, avoiding traveling between the East coast and Nebraska as much as possible.
I also don't think the competitive balance is too bad in East/West, especially if Penn State and MSU fall off a bit as expected in the coming years, and extra especially if Wisconsin can keep going as a perrenial conference contender.
The fall sports fly to farther locations, so it doesn't make that big of a difference. No other sports besides football has divisions so they have to drive the distance anyways. I would rather see Michigan play traditional Big Ten schools rather than Rutgers and Maryland. To hell with Nebraska and their Ohio State coach.
UofM-St.Louis... how do you not want the inner-outer?! I live in St Louis too. Do you have any clue how much this would potentially save on travel expenses for us? It would mean 4 out of the 7 teams would be roughly within a 4 and a half hour radius of StL. Why?
I'm a big supporter of inner-outer. I would rather Michigan play traditional Big Ten teams then Rutgers and Maryland every year.
I voted for "Inner-Outer" (although I first thought or orbital diagrams when I saw this - Rutgers' orbit is very eccentric and it could escape the conference at apogee from the inner conference) as well. The East-West arrangement, to me, seems a little top-heavy in the East and a little bottom-loaded in the West, if you will. The Inner-Outer arrangement disperses the good and "meh" better.
I would want to see expansion to 16 teams. With Four divisions.
Western Division: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska and Iowa
Northern Division: Michigan, MSU, Northwestern, Illinois
Central Division: Purdue, Indiana, OSU, PSU
Eastern Division: Maryland, Rutgers, Georgia Tech* (possibly), Add Good Coastal school*
With this you would rotate each year the divisions that play each other. (like the NFL), with one protected rivalry game.For the championship, Top teams from each division would advance, and there would be a four team playoff for the Big Ten championship.
Most of you will probably hate this, but I think it would be pretty sweet.
To me anything with Michigan and OSU in the same division is not balanced.
Is the current setup (where Michigan plays OSU every year while our division rivals only play them 40% of the time) balanced?
The protected cross-division games have got to go. The league needs to put all rivalries within the divisions.
Agree, moving forward, as long as the B1G maintains an 8 game conference schedule, as long as Michigan and OSU are in different divisions, they are at a significant strength of schedule disadvantage due to having to play eachother every year, while their divisional rivals play Michigan/OSU 2 out of every 12 years.
Nebraska, MSU played OSU this year. Yes the are not locked to playing them every year, but we dont have to play Wisconsin every year, like Nebraska. They are on our schedule, who cares who they play just beat them.
Nebraska doesn't play Wisconsin every year. Their protected game is PSU. If PSU craters because of the sanctions, then we're talking about a serious schedule imbalance within our own division. It's better to just dispense with the protected games altogether.
ok, didnt know that. That changes things a little, with PSU going down.
I am just worried about the disaster of playing OSU on back to back weeks. I hope they end up in the same division.
Why would it be so terrible to see, Michigan vs. OSU play each other in back to back weeks. For example, we lose to them, we get a chance to redeem ourselves. We win, we get another chance to kick their ass.
And what if we win the Game, only to lose the rematch? Then the first game becomes meaningless.
The Game always has been, and always should be, a once-a-year thing. The SEC, Big 12 and Pac-12 understand this. They don't make Alabama-Auburn, Florida-Georgia, Texas-OU, USC-UCLA, et al. play each other twice.
I voted for +1 just cause I don't like being told how to vote.
/what's up now Seth?
Someone on Twitter suggested just drawing a dinosaur. It works not too terribly:
Competitively Inner and Outer is best now, but it really doesn't work. Why? The travel distances for Maryland, Nebraska, Minnesota, and Rutgers fans would be ridiculous. While we may not care about them, you need their support for realignment. Thus, I voted East-West.
Bo Pelini and Jerry Kill would gladly trade the shorter travel distances in a West division for guaranteed East Coast visits every year. The West division could be problematic from a recruiting standpoint, just as the Big 12 North became.
What about the travel distance now for Nebraska fans? The travel to Michigan and Michigan St. are no picnic -- you're definitely flying. And what about the distance between divisional opponents Penn St - Wisconsin. Or Wisconsin - OSU. Or Minnesota - Michigan. Or Minnesota - Michigan St. These are all really long drives as it is. I don't think knocking the inside-outside lineup due to geography holds much weight compared to what we already have now.
I put East-West 1st and Inner-Outer 2nd
It's going to be far to get from Rutgers and Maryland to anywhere. So travel is whatever. Travel is beat for Michigan and anyone in Chicago with inner outer.
What is it with the idiots in the comments on the B1G site blabbering about divisional equality? It isn't sustainable over the long term. Hell it wasn't sustainable over the short term. This subject gets me all pissed off and fired up. As long as they can put Michign and Ohio in the same division and change the hokey names, I'll consider it a victory.
Agree on balance. Look at the SEC. East dominated in the 90's and now the west has ruled for a decade. The balance will always ebb and flow.
After scanning some other Big Ten blogs, it doesn't seem like inner/outer is very popular anywhere else. There are jokes about the layout and how "ridiculous" the idea is for inner/outer. I scanned Iowa, OSU, and Nebrask sites, so this wasn't comprehensive by any means, but some of those sites prefer the +1 over inner/outer which seems ludicrous.
The +1 option seems absolutely horrible for whichever of the two new schools goes into the division opposite PSU. It would have no division rivals within driving distance. The league can't do that.
Because the dirty little secret is that Ohio, State and us are the only fanbases who really hate the alignment
Not true. Many fanbases have a beef. Wisconsin fans hate being separated from Minnesota and Iowa, and vice versa. Illinois fans hate being separated from their "archrival" Michigan, not to mention Northwestern. PSU fans want to be in the same division as Michigan (the scars from that nine-game winning streak run deep in that fanbase). Nebraska is concerned about a future lack of exposure in Pennsylvania and Ohio, since they won't visit there often as it stands.
Really, the only schools that are content with the current setup are the ones that don't really care about football - Indiana and Purdue.
Does anybody's elses fan base REALLY count?
Michigan is in the North and Ohio in the South.
There is no way that Michigan and Ohio should ever be in the same division.
There are two traditions for Michigan and Ohio.
1) They play in the last game of the year every year in the biggest rivalry in college sports.
2) They usually play for the B10 championship and Rose Bowl every year.
Michigan and Ohio must have a chance to play in the B1G championship game every year. Keep their annual game but keep them is separate divisions.
Who really cares about having back to back games. Everyone predicted that would happen every year but it hasn't yet and my not happen that often with all the new teams. Even if it did, everybody would love to see the rematch just like we wanted to see it in 2007.
BUT If they are in the same division they will never again play for the B10 championship ...NEVER! And that would be a tragedy.
If North and South isn't possible then vote for the Status Quo.
Michigan and Ohio have a tradition of playing once a year, on each other's home field. They have never played on a neutral field. They have never played a rematch in the same year. If we play them in a domed stadium in Indianapolis, it won't be keeping with tradition at all. I don't think some people can grasp just how weird that will be until it happens.
Conference title games are a joke, a money grab played in mostly empty stadiums with no students present. They feel like exhibition games. The Game can only go down in prestige by being associated with Lucas Oil Stadium. Keep it once a year. Winner wins the division.
if they played twice and the second game was at a neutral spot. That means they still play home and home but home field advantage no longer disproportionately determines the chance for the Rose Bowl. Think of all the years we would have loved a rematch on neutral turf.
Think of all the years they would have loved a neutral site rematch. What if we played them again in 1969 and lost. Or in 1995 or 1996. There goes the value of some classic upsets.
your glass is half empty. In fact the biggest reason to not have a rematch I've read on this site is "what if we lose" and "I don't want to play those guys twice." I doubt the players feel that way. Sure it's a tougher road. There is nothing wrong with that.
The biggest problems are it devalues the one game that makes it a one game season with a year's bragging rights; and that the road is unfair in not between Michigan and Ohio State, but between Michigan (and Ohio) and its division rivals. Nebraska playing PSU, MSU playing Indiana, and Iowa Purdue every yer, while we play each other.
It's not a what of we lose thing to me. It's a what if the first game...which is the game...ends up worthless. Rematch in the big ten title game and the other team wins to get a split. Who gets bragging rights? The team who won the second game? That's awful.
...all those years that were decided by the Big Ten ADs. So would have Woody. Decide it on the field. Don't make Michigan vs Ohio a playoff game.
Everyone would have liked a rematch in 2006 on neutral turf.
I agree that they should play home and home every year. But they should also have the "chance" to play for the title on neutral turf as well.
Imagine if you were on the team.
Your goals are:
1A) Win the Big10
1B) Beat Ohio
If it's 1971 or 2006 and both teams are undefeated going into their final game, does Bo, Lloyd or Hoke want to play in both games? Should both teams play in both games (assuming no one else is undefeated)? Absolutely.
Here is a important point. You always want the option to decide the championship on the field. You don't want the championship taken out of your hands and decided by a committee or by poorly set up divisions (with the two best teams in the same division). If the best two teams are Ohio and Michigan (which wont occur as often going forward) they can only decide it on the field if they are in different divisions. For all those that don't want to face Ohio twice I guarantee you the team and coach would disagree. There is no question that the players would want to play the best team twice if they had to, the players would want to decide it on the field.
They set the whole season up to be a one game season that was decided on the last fall game of the year. Not one that was played completely meaninglessly, only to be followed up by another one that meant something.
The years you mention are years Michigan would have liked a rematch. But not ones where Ohio State would have. Just like you ignored years like '97 where Michigan wouldn't have. The championship had already been decided on the field. You didn't need to play twice to decide it. If you split, how does that decide anything? Why is winning the second more important than a week earlier? Different divisions keeps them fom deciding it on the field, not the same. Unless you're suggesting best of three.
So stop talking about what players and coaches would want when you don't have a clue. In 2006 when there was a chance or a rematch you say that all those coaches would want, you know what Tressel did? He abstained from the vote. He didn't want to play Michigan again, but didn't want to look like he was scared.
You may want it, but to just state someone else would is just wrong.
Wouldn't losing the one and only game be deciding it on the field? Yes it sucks that we didn't win in those years, but osu won and they earned the bragging rights for those years. We won in 95 and 96 when the idiots overlooked us. Why would you want to play them again if you already beat them once the week before? What would be the point?
I don't understand this thinking. How can you not see how the rivalry has already been compromised by the fact that we're in separate divisions? When OSU played MSU and Nebraska, we were obligated to root for them to help us get an advantage in the division race. When we played OSU, the game couldn't have resolved anything even if they hadn't been ineligible - they would have already clinched their division, and we would have already been eliminated from ours.
This year the game that cost us the division title was Nebraska, not OSU. As long as we are in separate divisions from OSU, it will no longer be the absolute must-win on the schedule, as far as winning the conference goes. Nebraska will be that game. Even if it does happen that the OSU game will decide the division race, we still will really be competing against Nebraska. OSU will just happen to be the final team we play, that we need to beat to get a leg up on the Huskers.
As it stands, the Game (the on-campus version of it) will never be a winner-take-all type of thing again, because we'll be competing in rival divisions. The only way we can get a winner-take-all matchup is if we play in the BTCG. But that won't happen often, and even when it does, it won't be as satisfying when it's a replay of a game played one week earlier. I predict that if/when we do meet in the title game, there will be a huge outcry as everyone will recognize how ridiculous it is to ask the two teams to play on back to back weeks.
Well point 1 might not continue to happen if they are in different divisions and have a rematch the next week for the rose bowl. If they are going to play eachother 2 weeks in a row and the last game of the season is essentially meaningless because both are a lock, why throw it all on the field the first game? If this became the case, michigan-ohio would get moved to october so there is a point to the game rendering tradition bunk.
Point 2 is whoever wins The Game is going to play the other division for the Rose Bowl. The Game still means everything. Plus do you really want to have to beat Ohio twice to get to the rose bowl?. Read earlier coments on how our guaranteed crossover against ohio gives both of us disadvantages.
your number 1. we do it now.
is the the tail between the legs agruement. there are so many years we would have loved a rematch on neutral turf. who couldn't love two games in one year...unless you're worried about losing.
If rematches are so awesome, why aren't Alabama and Auburn in separate divisions? Florida and Georgia? Texas and Oklahoma? USC and UCLA?
The Game has been called a "one-game season." The rarity enhances its appeal. You have your one meeting for the year and that's it.
But Ohio Michigan would be.
I got a great solution add 2 more teams and make 4 4 team devisions.
How about the NCAA just ditch conference title games (and thus, divisions)? (What's so horrible about shared conference championships?) If an NCAA playoff is as lucrative as they think, it could make up the difference.
This is what I've been saying! Now that there are more teams in a division the championship game is basically worthless anyway. PLUS who wants to spend money to travel from whatever state they're from to Indianapolis one week plus tickets and then spend money for travel and tickets to Pasadena/playoff games? It makes no sense. It was full the first year for the sparty and wisconsin game, but this year the excitement wore off and even one of the best travelling fanbases in the country (nebraska) who figured they'd be going to pasadena at the time, said why the hell would we want to buy tickets for this game and pasadena?
Remember the craigslist scam to get seat fillers in year one? Ticket sales for this game are a joke.
see the option of dropping moo u for Pitt.
That's what the comment section is for.
you guys get OSU, MSU, PSU, we get Wisconsin and whoever. After we go to 16, we even get to finally play Indiana.
Wouldn't the eye essentially hand the Outer to Nebraska virtually every year?
Compared to East-West? How does adding Penn State make it easier?
But you have to ask...who are the 2 new teams if they go to 16? ND is the only me that works in the divisions because you could add thm in the inner or the west and then add your other east squad. Two east tens screws up inner-outer. You could add them to east and send Indy to the west, but that's an ugly east division. And it doesn't look like any west teams are on the radar.
It's crazy to force constant travel between Rutgers and Nebraska more than once every other year...but Rutgers to anywhere is far and will require a plane ride in most instances. For football only, this makes sense.
well hey, the fans of a whole didn't ask for Rutgers and Mayland to join. They chose so based on financial incentives and should deal with it accordingly. Blame the conference and hope the B1G deals with it appropriately (which I have my doubts about).
At least 2 of the 3 options have UM and OSU in the same division. The key is that we vote +1 as our third choice (I wish they had 10 options so I could vote +1 10th). Vote early and often!
The bad news is the number of comments on the BTN site from other B1G fans who think that +1 is the way to go.
Ultimately though, I do not trust the B1G to actually listen to the fans. Instead, the suits will pick a fourth choice for realignment that simultaneously ruins all rivalries and results in the farthest total travel for every fanbase. They also will replace Leaders and Legends with WOW and COOL and play the B1G championship game in Tokyo to get the Asian markets. Plus, they will have an animated rapping dog named B1GGIE, who will also appear in mascot form at all B1G games singing, "I love it when you call me B1G conference..."