The value of a QB

Submitted by vablue on
In retrospect, Hoke's greatest mistake may have been to not recruit a better QB his first year. I have coached a lot of football, and the reality is that Gardner's mistakes are not from a lack of coaching, but purely a function of mental mistakes. At most programs he would not have been on the field. We've seen time and again good coaches struggle when their team has a lackluster QB. Hoke's tenure here is no different.
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RickH

November 29th, 2014 at 4:19 PM ^

People somehow don't understand this. Gardner's best season was when he was being coached at WR for half the season. The more coaching and experience he got, the worst he played. Despite playing so terribly though, he was still the starter because nobody behind him was improving either. He also played through a ton of injuries because he was hit almost every damn play for two years. It's pretty hard to look down field when you've got constant pressure or worrying about getting blindsided. Having trust in your line is huge and bad offensive lines can break good quarterbacks. Gardner also played through a ton of injuries like a broken foot and possibly a messed up labrum in today's game. This guy had every damn thing against him, including the fans. He had the chance to be a great QB until our program killed his potential. He deserved more but he's always going to be remembered as a terrible QB because he tried to make plays to keep Michigan in the game. I absolutely hate losing and I hate praising bad performances, but Devin Gardner is the one player that kept us in games, played through everything he could, and got absolutely shit on by fans every week. The Hoke era would've been a hell of a lot worse if Bellamy or Morris started the last two seasons.

Joined: 11/01/2009

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vablue

November 29th, 2014 at 4:19 PM ^

Physically yes, mentally no. Watch the ND game last year after he throws the int in the end zone. Watch his face on the sideline, you can literally see him fall apart. It's the same thing all year now, he is so scared of throwing interceptions that he holds the ball forever and makes bad throws when he does. He plays scared, that is no way for a QB to play and little that coaches can do about it.

Joined: 11/28/2011

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btn

November 29th, 2014 at 4:27 PM ^

Did any of those two repeatedly give the ball to the other team over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

How anyone who watched DG over the past 3 seasons can sit and actually compare him to two QBs who have carried their teams to B1G Champ games, I have no idea...

How many times has DG thrown the ball to a double covered man, when a wide open reciever was there?

How many times did DG throw the ball directly to the other team with no Michigan player within 10 feet like he did to start the game today?

How often does he throw a 5 yard pass when we needed 8 yards for a first down.

He has poor instincts, he is sloppy handling the ball.

Great kid, no doubt about that.  But Sean Payton couldn't change him from what he is.

 

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jdon

November 29th, 2014 at 8:20 PM ^

Gardner holds the ball too long, locks into his recievers and throws the ball god knows where whenever he drops back.

 

dude hasn't regressed, he never was.  and once there was film on him it was over.

jdon

 

Joined: 09/28/2009

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TheLastHarbaugh

November 29th, 2014 at 3:31 PM ^

It's not the QB. It's 100% coaching. We just saw OSU's 3rd string QB come in and lead them 80 yards for a score. That is what happens when you have superior coaching and a superior offensive system.

Joined: 08/06/2008

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vablue

November 29th, 2014 at 4:21 PM ^

If you want to say it is coaching because they did not develop Morris or someone behind him, than yeah I agree. Or if you simply want to say it is coaching because they did not recruit a better QB, than I agree as I said in my post. I did not say it was not Hoke's fault, I said not getting a decent QB is by far his biggest failure.

Joined: 11/28/2011

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jmbanks73

November 29th, 2014 at 5:09 PM ^

It's both, coaching and devin, out of all the QB's to ever play at Michigan he has to have the worst mechanics, his delivery is terrible, no progression reads, whoever taught him how to throw the football needs to be fired, it's kinda hard for a college coach to correct those defincencies, the bottom line is this Devin is just not a good QB

Joined: 10/22/2011

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michiganman01

November 29th, 2014 at 3:32 PM ^

What about the way Gardner looked in 2012 and the ND game of 2013. While I do think Gardner became in coachable because of metal issues this year, his mental issues came forth because of the beating he took last year.

Joined: 08/27/2013

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OccaM

November 29th, 2014 at 3:34 PM ^

John Navarre 1-2 

Chad Henne 0-4

Denard Robinson 1-3

Devin Gardner 0-3

This is not acceptable. We can't mentally beat these guys anymore.

Joined: 11/10/2014

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Tater

November 29th, 2014 at 3:38 PM ^

The team with the better coach just beat Michigan with a QB who was third string at the beginning of the year driving OSU down the field like a Heisman candidate.  Don't throw Devin Gardner under the bus.  He had the potential to be as good as any QB at Michigan; it was wasted on Brandon's Folly.

Luckily it is over now.  Better things are ahead.

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ffsmith28

November 29th, 2014 at 3:59 PM ^

The Michigan Quarterbacks ove the last 5 years have been terrible....Gardener is the worst Quarterback in Michigan history!!!!!  Thank God we will not see Gardener again.

Joined: 11/29/2014

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SWPro

November 29th, 2014 at 4:00 PM ^

Reverse RichRod syndrome. Couldn't figure out what that guy was trying to do on defense. Can't figure out what Hoke and co are trying to do on offense.

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Mpfnfu Ford

November 29th, 2014 at 4:00 PM ^

Is trying to run complicated pro style offenses that require a high level of mental and physical execution. Ohio State is out here running an offense that can score 42 points with back up and third string QBs as long as they are reasonably athletic. Not one of their three qbs is ever going to be a NFL QB, and it's fine. 

And it's why he's going to be fired. Hoke can't get the same level of play from his starter that Urban gets from a 3rd stringer.

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natesezgoblue

November 29th, 2014 at 4:02 PM ^


Disagree. Don't get me wrong DG has played terrible, but this game was a perfect exile of what you do when you at not have exactly what you want under center. You adjust the game to their strengths. We saw very little zone reads or rollouts all year long.

Joined: 05/24/2010

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xxxxNateDaGreat

November 29th, 2014 at 4:11 PM ^

This has been discussed several times before and it always comes back to two assumptions: 1) the idea that the staff could've had their pick of ANY of the AMAZING QBs who would've DEFINITELY came here had the coaching staff even bothered to TRY to recruit them, and 2) that the staff could've developed those QBs better than they've developed Denard, Gardner, Morris, and Bellomy. In case you can't tell, I don't buy either if those assumptions. It's all about coaching and Hoke fucked over the players by hiring Borges.

Joined: 11/28/2011

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Tagg

November 29th, 2014 at 4:22 PM ^

The the two QB's that Hoke and his staff had got worse each year under their guidence. TD's went down, completions went down and INTs went up. With that trend spread over two different QB's I lean on it being a coaching issue. Besides the QB the backs were terrible the last 2 and half years as well so there is no play action and plenty of 2nd and 13 situations. 

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MGoStrength

November 29th, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^

I realize the problems at QB are significant, espeically the number of turnovers, but it's not as simple to say that's the single problem.  There have been 4 offensive coordinators in Devin's tenure.  The offensive line has been a problem.  The defense had opportunities to tackle guys for losses or prevent first downs and failed to do so, including our best player JMFR not making tackles on a RS freshman QB.  When Drake Johnson left the game our running game became absent.  We played poorly returning kicks and punts, Norfleet had no room and got manhandled when we was tackled because he's so tiny.  When we stopped pressuing the QB late in the second quarter OSU's offense looked great throwing the ball.  The list goes on and on.  The QB has been a problem, but the reason we continually lose to OSU is a more complex problem than simply the QB.  The QB may be one of the most glaring problems, but it's not as simple to say if we had a better QB everything would be different.

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bamf16

November 29th, 2014 at 4:40 PM ^

Threet, Sheridan, and Forcier love you!

 

I can't recall another QB (or any position player for that matter) who's digressed from years 2-5 the way Gardner has.

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CalifExile

November 29th, 2014 at 8:50 PM ^

Tate Forcier was a very good, highly recruited QB (Stanford, Florida, Arizona State and others) who had serious discipline problems that have screwed up his life. If he had been able to conduct himself appropriately and apply his QB skills on the field, he probably would have started for Hoke and Borges and DR would have been moved to RB.

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erald01

November 29th, 2014 at 4:54 PM ^

The value of a good QB is huuuge, been saying this for awhile. Yes Hoke and Co are not good BUT the lack of having a good QB didnt help their case. Yes the offense is a mess BUT it all trickles down to the leader, the QB. When the QB has a good day and the tempo is good everyone follows. QB regreses than so does the whole offense. You can clearly see it this game, DG playing good and the trend carries throughout the offense and we score, QB sucks then the offense falls flat on its face. So yes having a crippled QB does NOT help.
Everyone wants to use the 4 OC excuse for Devin but at the end of the day the guy CANNOT throw period and makes too many mental mistakes for a 5th year senior. No matter who the OC is, the QB needs to make smart decisions and be precise in his throws What Hoke should have done is hire a QB coach for Devin, because timing was not on their side for Nuss to bring in a new scheme and also coach DG every little thing.

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Michology 101

November 29th, 2014 at 5:37 PM ^

I was telling a friend of mine during the game that we haven't had a good passing QB in a long time, and it's one of the reasons we've struggled. Amongst many others. Denard got away with it because a great running QB could still do well in the offense he was leading. Though even he got shut down against most good defenses. I'm really looking forward to the day Michigan gets that traditional tall strong pocket QB again, like many of us grew up seeing. Maybe Speight because Shane already has me a little concerned about his potential. Though hopefully he'll improve.

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GoblueNCaliformia

November 29th, 2014 at 5:52 PM ^

Devin Gardner is a Decent not great but bowl contending Quarterback enuff said seriously apperciate what he has done for this program. Devin was far from the problem his supporting cast has been Mac or MWC level at best , wait  oddly similar to Hoke's head coaching tenures before Michigan. Our line either side of the ball his specialty has been horrible just horrible you star gazer argue all you want but it is what it is. Our wr crop is absolutley garbage nothing against our  current players but this is the real world and you will be critique like every other working american is. To prove my point over at ucla Brett Hundley went from being close to the number one Quartback drafted last year and this preseason's mock drafts to being lucky if he gets drafted on the first two days soley because of poor o line play and not enough explosive outside help. Hoke's biggest failure will be not recruiting talented skill players he relied heavily on rich rods skill players and recruited way to heavy on lineman who just might be the most glaring weakness on this team. If your line cant block and your most explosive player outside of your quarterback is a TE converted into a wr  chances are Grim Whoever  the quarterback is unless he doesnt tie his shoes. Bet Mr. Hoke turning your back on stefon diggs and a few current osu skill players because they had swagger and wanted to be playmakers hopefully just cost you your job Nice Guy!!! 

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MGoStrength

November 29th, 2014 at 7:14 PM ^

Hoke's biggest failure is not recruiting skill players and relying on RRs skill players?  That's like the old question...what came first, the chicken or the egg?  Hoke has not been able to sign many big time WRs (not skill players because he signed some good TEs and RBs).  He did sign Drake Harris and still has a verbal from Brian Cole who are two highly thought of WRs.  But, it's pretty hard to sign big time WRs when you have Denard that couldn't really throw effectively with much consistentcy.  Their offense was all Denard sprinkled in with some jump balls or "throw it up" receptions.  Gardner/Gallon/Funchess started to change that and Hoke's WR recruiting came along as such, but Gardner was just not consistent enough.  I don't think that's Hoke's fault, but a condition of the roster he was given.  Lack of offensive identity, a system the talent can run successfully, lack of player development at certain positions, etc. all make sense, but not recruiting skill positions is not accurate IMO.  Funchess, Harris, Cole, Butt, Clark, and Green are all pretty highly rated skill position recruits.

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