Peppers at 10, which seems low.
USA VS BELGIUM extra time thread
ITS ALL YOUR FAULT
Ya we lost
and excellent goalie play, Belgium could have won by 5 goals. We got owned today.
goaltending, not defence!
I BET YOU'RE THE GUY WHO TRIES TO START THE WAVE WHILE UP BY A SINGLE TOUCHDOWN.
Soccer is the sport most suited for sudden death OT. Silly that this game is going another 15 mins plus stoppage.
...and the feeling was (I don't know if there's any data to back it up) that players tended to play it safe when they knew there was no chance for recovery if they made a mistake that led to a goal. Teams stayed back, fewer goals were scored (allegedly).
And do you really wish we'd been spared that last 27 minutes? The intensity really kicks up when one team becomes desperate. That's why I still think they should take the penalties before the extra time instead of after. Whichever team won the penalties wins the game if it finishes tied; the other team is forced to go for it.
I actually think they should go sudden death and play for as long as it takes, no shootout. You can't just play not to lose if there's literally no way to advance without scoring. If there's still too much playing defensively even after that, take one player for each team off the pitch every five minutes until someone scores. No one is going to be able to sit back and defend if it's 5 on 5 out there. That may not seem like authentic soccer of course, but then what is penalty kicks?
I feel the same way about hockey, for what it's worth. No shootouts. Start taking players off the ice if you have to, but give me a decision, not a draw with some silly exhibition deciding things.
Soccer players calibrate their effort to make sure they can last the required time. If they know the game can't possibly go longer than 120 minutes they can play at a 120-minute pace. If the game might go on all day, they'll pace themselves accordingly. And it will go on all day. And the next--I can't find a link but didn't that happen in Pennsylvania once?
Go back to your hole and sniff glue Darth. I look forward to finding out what username you'll be using next once you out yourself for the weirdo you are.
How sad can someone be to neg literally every thread about a sport.
You forgot #HOTSPORTSTAKE
"Let's not call them anything -- Let's just ignore them". http://youtu.be/PrvXoin9NcA
Neg bang me if you must. Be gentle.
Nice fucking job
At least we made it close and Belgium had to earn every point. I don't think we would have made it close against Argentina anyway. Still plan on watching the World Cup though, now it's nothing but the best teams going head to head.
1 minute of stoppage time?!? Really?!? 1?!? I've watched almost all of every game this WC and I cannot think of one game that had 1 minute of stoppage time. Fucking pathetic. Portugal got 5, IIRC, and it seemed there wasn't but a few stops!
...because it's being added to just 15 minutes instead of 45 and, generally, there's less stuff to add on. By percentage, that's the same as 3 minutes at the end of a half.
I am aware of that ... but Jones was down twice for AT LEAST a minute each time. Bottom line, no Euro ref was going to give the US another chance to win -- bullshit!
I must have missed it.
The head ref was a Swede, if I am not mistaken. Either way, it's fucking bullshit. There was a lot more than 1 minute of stops.
Fine! But that doesn't mean that FIFA isn't going to give the US a chance to tie the game against Belgium. It was obivious. Did you see Coach K's reaction?!?
It's a fucking farce, as was the lack of calls when Jones is getting hit studs up over and over. I love soccer, and I love the World Cup, but it was OBVIOUS at the end that FIFA wasn't going to give the US anything.
Are you really going to throw this temper tantrum right now?
The US had plenty of opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net. They didn't get it done. It had very little to do with the refs.
I agree the US got out played, and that they had opportunities to score. But 1 minute is asinine. If you don't agree, fine. But I am not throwing a tantrum, I am expressing my discontent with the way the refs handled the end of the game -- because we ALL know that that FIFA is above reproach!
Duke sucks !!!!! Lol
Well, how about the US do virtually anything for the first 90 minutes of the game (other than allow Belgium to rain in shots on goal) and you don't worry about stoppage time in OT? I get that people are made about the loss, but jebus this bitching is the worst part of fandom. US could have easily lost by 5 goals today with Howard playing out of his mind. Belgium was the better team, the FAR better team, and they deserved to win.
but are you effing kidding? In a game in which we are dominated from start to finish--and are only alive because our keeper plays a legendary game--you find a conspiracy---cuz given another 60 seconds, what? You may need to adjust the tinfoil.
"You may need to adjust the tinfoil."
What does that mean? Oh wait, I get it ... because I think that the ref, about whom Klinsman expressed concern prior to the game, gave too little stoppage time (about which Klinsman complained vehmently during the game), I must be a *gasp* "conspiracy therorist" who -- to block "them" from reading his mind -- wears a hat of foil. Now THAT is a good one. Did you come up with that all on your own cuz that is pure comedic GENIUS!
I don't own any tinfoil, it freaks me out, and I certainly don't have a hat of one -- I do, however, own a nice chunck of RAI that has done very well. I'll sell you some if you like. It just made a 52 week high, but it is only going up from here, trust me muppet, trust me.
Belgium's dominance is meaningless.
You didn't just complain that the officiating was bad. Rather you ranted ad nauseam that there was a conspiracy involving not only the referee but FIFA as well. We all know that FIFA sucks--but not tacking on another minute is a pretty lame attempt to throw the game.
Sorry, when I hear the word conspiracy, I start thinking Area 51 and....tinfoil.
Also, notice how absolutely no one here agrees with you.
"...you ranted ad nauseam..."
Hopefully you puked your brains out! I disagree with your assessment of my posts as ranting, and that the frequency ascended to the level of ad nauseam. But, you're welcome to my opinion.
"Sorry, when I hear the word conspiracy, I start thinking Area 51 and....tinfoil."
And why should I care what weird associations you have? It's funny how people dismiss things out of hand when there might be more than one perp involved -- as if the "lone gunman" is the ONLY scenario possible. I call people who express the sentiment that you're expressing "Coincidence Therorists." It's odd to me because so many things in history have born out to be actual "conspiracies" in which a group of people united to achieve a common goal. Whether this one was or not, who knows. But I find it funny that you think that by throwing out the "tinfoil hat" meme you elevate your position.
"Also, notice how absolutely no one here agrees with you."
Again, I am supposed to care why? Unlike you, apparently, I form my own opinions whether they run with the crowds sentiment or not. Run with the herd all you want, enjoy yourself. But don't expect me to alter my beliefs simply because others don't agree. You all could be dumbledicks who know nothing. But then again, I could be too. Not sure why you have to get so upset about my thoughts. But, I am flattered that you care so much.
My fan club is accepting donations.
Portugal got 5 minutes after a 45 minute half.
US got 1 minute after a 15 minute Extra Period.
Can someone explain to me why this team seemed to be on the attack more so in overtime than during the first 90 ? Once they got down 2-0 it seemed like they kicked up the intensity
If we did that the entire game the score would have been about 6-32 in their favor.
Which you can't do because of break aways.
On top of that, if you tried to play like that for an entire game the whole team would be cramping up long before it was over. Eight of your guys have to play the entire 120; conservation of energy is a necessity.
So the point is to play conservative until you start losing ??? Or are we just not in tip top shape to run hard for 90+ minutes
Moving people up in those numbers is only an option when the other team moves their entire team into a defensive position.
But a lot of teams do run a counter attack minded offense. You just won't see numbers up to that extent until there's desperation.
Switzerland had their goal keeper take a bicycle kick in their game earlier today.
Yes they opened themselves up to counter attack by going with almost everyone forward - if they did that for 90 minutes we might have scored 2-3 goals but probably give up 5-6.
Was playing lights out I would have gambled a few times a half.... but then again in not a coach
with a striker. Even if you are Tim Howard.
We picked it up once Green came on. Even the team knew that in terms of technical ability he was the best option. Green gave the team energy. So pumped for him and Yedlin
Well, one of those 2 goals was a result of US putting the pressure on and Belgium getting numbers on the counter-attack. The strategy was not to get run off the field by Belgium and it kinda worked (with Howard making huge saves), and as soon as the US pushed the action they also left themselves even more open. If they had started to do so earlier they likely would have given up even more shots.
And just like that, 300 million people go back to not caring about soccer.
that there wasn't a bunch of flopping in that game. so much more entertaining and impressive. Those teams that fall down wanking every time they get breathed on are terrible for building interest in the sport.
One consistent aspect of this world cup has been that games in which the US played had far less acting. If soccer is to go anywhere with the US market that trend must coninue.
It's all your fault! It's all your fault! It's all your fault!
Thoughts on future - feel free to offer ideas. Pray that a lot of German Americans exist in the midfield living on U18 U20 teams overseas :)
Defense is young enough outside of Beasley, mid 20s with Gonzalez, Johnson, early 20s with Yedlin and Besler the old goat at 28. In theory all these guys can return as a group.
Forwards Jozy, Johannsson and Green all young 24 to 19.
Midfield will need total revamp. Bradley 26 probably only guy really on next WC team. Dempsey 31, Jones 32, Beckerman 32. Bedoya and Zusi out of depth here, and late 20s. Mix is 23 but right now his level of physical play and defensive responsibility seems lacking - hence zero minutes this WC. Cameron 28 and I dont see much upside there for Russia.
And we lose our GK.
Seems like midfield is main area we are going to have to start over with in the next cycle.
Green, Yedlin, Gedion Zelalem, Aron, Jozy, Arriola, Emo...our golden generation, there is a ton young talent coming up. Defense finally looks promising. Not worried about keeper.
We will be good '18.
I agree Drunk Unc, young players looking good!
Howeve , despite all the seeming advancement of the USMNT, it is still amazing to see the near complete lack of that first touch that our guys show as compared to the rest of the world. Dempsey has it, at times, but its just not there yet. Hopefully Klinsman's influence on the development of the youth players will start to elevate the collective skills of our nations soccer programs.
We have the worst first touch of any team in the WC. Damn near every first touch was a bobble. The Belgians on the other hand looked like they had glue on their shoes.
Thanks for the link!
I forgot Brooks in my summary in central D as well.
Gedion Zelalem, 17 years old. He is German American MF and plays for Arsenal and Arsenal youth academy.
Is he actually a citizen yet? Last I had heard his father still needed to get his citizenship before he would be piggybacked on that. When he does, someone needs to get Saban on the phone to him.
Not yet. Last I heard (May), his father was close to getting his citizenship.
I mentioned this in the other thread but it was about this. Young talent in other countries becoming almost professionals much sooner. Wasn't Messi bought when he was 13?
Don't count out Juan Agudelo. He is still only 21 and hopefully he continues to develop while he is on loan in the Dutch league.
Honestly after today I would be okay with revamping the midfield.
Overall, I'm pleased. Team did better than I thought they would, but not really in the way I expected.
Defense looked pretty decent throughout I thought, especially because I thought that's what was going to lose us games. I'm honestly a bit befuttled by the fact that they couldn't hold on the ball. I mean, I'm not expecting the US to look like some of the European powers out there, that will take some more time. But geez, string more than two forward passes together. This is where Altidore's injury really hurt the team.
That said, there is some great young talent out there, so hopefully another 4 years of aging, and a few big tourneys before the next would cup will see the US much more improved in 2018.
I am very confused by all the praise for the defense. They most definitely did not look good. Howard=world class. Defense=slow, disorganized, and incapable of starting the attack with any kind of purpose. When your goalie sets the record for saves (and those were all legit saves on shots that could have easily been goals), your defense sucked.
I think that's over simplifying things, and only focusing on this game. Belgium took 38 shots. And Howard, while heroic, made 16 saves. That means the defense is not giving Belgium 38 super easy shots. Belgium also took 19 corners. That's crazy! And they were all cleared. The problem is that the team couldn't link up and hold onto the ball, putting the entire defensive end in terrible position after terrible position. It's like blaming the Nebraska loss last year on the defense because they cracked at the end.
Overall, I thought the D handled Ghana's crazy athleticism well; they gave Germany more trouble than the US. Also pretty much shut down the best player in the world in the Portugal game, and if not for one bad defensive play that fell luckily right to the feet of a Portugal player, the US would have won. Also held up well against Germany again considering the utter lack of US possestion.
Of course this is just my opinion, but it kind of flipped the script of more recent national team narratives where the D concedes early and is the weak part of the team.
One comment - defense is not 4 players. It is 11 players but specifically the midfield and defense. Your defense can look bad - very bad - when your midfield doesnt track back. JK brought in Cameron for height and said after the game he was happy with it but the lack of Beckerman stood out today on defense.
And I dont care if you are a world class defender - when a team throws multiple offensive guys with individual ability to break you down you are just trying to keep him outside and take shots/crosses from the outside and cut off angles. You are not going to tackle most of these guys.
Relative to expectations going into the tourney they did fine ....other than Fabian Johnson it was "hmm" on Beasley and "OMG" on the central defense. It was competent. Look at Germany - they got exposed on defense as much as the US did with a team like Ghana. And Algeria who doesnt have the type of players Belgium does.
There's a difference between being exposed on defense while pushing forward, having 67% possession and outshooting the opposition 28-10, vs. being exposed on defense while being outshot 39-17.
I'm not passing judgment on either defense but today's game was nothing like Germany/Algeria. Or maybe it was, but not quite in the way you mean.
1: Algeria played better against Germany than U.S. did vs Belgium
2: That is not really all on the defense. Algeria actually had possession. They had more pace on the outside midfield and their central forward. They actually connected passed. They challenged the German defense many times.
3: Sitting back in a shell absorbing attack after attack is not the defense's fault; it's your front 6 unable to do a darn thing for 90% of the game. If you want to blame 33% possession on the 4 defenders I guess you can but I'd point at the guys in the forward and midfield ranks for that.
4: When you have the ball that little it is going to result in a ton of shots. Not sure what you want the defense to do in those cases. Like someone else said, there was a bazillion corner kicks and corner kick discrepency tells me a lot more about a game than possession. You can possess all day on your half of the field or in the middle third and certain teams (Greece) will be happy to let you do it. But when you have nearly 20 CKs - thats sick. That means a ton of posession in your own third. So if you stop Belgium, get the ball to your midfielders, who promptly turn it right back over - again I don't see how that is on the defense.
I view all sports the way I view Michigan sports. Either the team wins despite all obstacles or they lose.US soccer is building and shows promise, but is far from world class. While I'm very happy for thier progress I'm very tired of the hype.
US soccer has hired a phenomenal coach and this world cup will bring huge dollars to support the program. Hopefully in four years the program will have progressed to the point that it can stand head to head with the top five in the world.
It might be a while before the US can consistantly stand toe to toe with the top 5 teams in the world. Those countries have kids from the day they can walk playing basically only soccer and training in club/national farm teams. And if the US wants to install a more 'modern' soccer system, it will take many years of younger players coming up in that system and training in it while at their club teams as well. You can't just install an effective zone-read offense, or a passing spread, overnight and expect it to win conference/national championships. Hopefully in the next few years we'll see the US go toe to toe with some great teams at the Confederations Cup and that special Copa America thing in 2016.
Every elementary school, junior and senior high school with in 50 miles of here has soccer teams, and has had for at least 25 years.There are soccer teams in virtually every college in the US, and, while it is not at the level of the europeans, we do have a professional soccer league.
It's not that there are not enough young people playing soccer. It's that until this country makes a market that top athletic talent decides there is a career here playing soccer, that talent will go elsewhere, to other sports or other countries.
Beyond soccer just getting recognition, to capture the imagination of the American market, soccer needs to lose the WWF acting.
Further, the challenges are exactly like installing a different offense or defense and sticking with it long enough to make it work. Soccer is a game like any other. Get the money to pay to find the talent and the coaching, and then stick with it until you can win. Soccer like any other professional sport is about spending enough money over the long haul to win.
Maybe the hype this year will generate enough interest to support that spending. We'll know in four years.
If you think this is going to turn around like that in four years, you're crazy. The changes that are hopefully taking place now are affecting ten year olds--we won't even start to see the effects for a decade at least.
The German team right now is made up of players that were youth players when they overhauled their youth system...in 1998. They saw results a little quicker because they were starting from a pretty solid foundation.
It's going to take time. Soccer's about technique, not "top athletic talent", and if doesn't happen pre-teen it doesn't ever really happen.
Awesome seeing all those people at bars and stadiums for the world cup.
And when World Cup fever ends, the people will all disappear. It's not growing like people proclaim it is. And I like the sport.
You see Soldier Field today?
Yeah. That would be World Cup fever.
Let me know when the MLS draws the entire nation's attention like that of the NFL and College Football.
I love soccer, but it will probably never come close to football.
Using football as a comparison just doesn't make sense now.
Great post. Soccer is gaining more American fans. Football will be dead in 10 years because of the health issues.
Agreed that most soccer fans here don't even follow MLS, it's the Euro leagues that are huge
it's basically like watching hs basketball.
Nice wishful thinking there.
is as valuable as a half-off item in a five-and-dime store. Football isn't going anywhere. Adjustments will be made through technological advancements and rules changes.
Football has dealt with health issues a fact you have overlooked.
I disagree that more people are not getting into soccer. There are a lot more in the under 30 set who watch soccer now than 2 decades ago. Mostly due to access. Yes a lot of hanger ons for the WC will disappear for 4 years but those are the same folks who jump onto any bandwagon.
Also MLS has little to do with love of soccer. I barely watch any MLS. It is like saying "when Americans embrace Double A baseball then I will know baseball has arrived." Why watch a 2nd rate league when the best players in the world are overseas. I watch MLB not double A. I will watch those EPL games all day and MLS wont see an impact and I am a soccer fan so MLS success doesnt mean the sport is not embraced. And MLS is actually pretty darn successful all things considered.
And no, not saying soccer will ever be bigger than the the big 3 - I can see it passing hockey at some point though. But MLS ratings won't tell you any of this. NBC Network ratings Saturday mornings are going to be more telling.
Part of the popularity of soccer rising in this country is people filling stadiums for soccer games in this country, no?
if there were prime time epl, la liga, etc. games, then soccer would grow more popular.
I mean, the only way to change that is to actually watch MLS games. With more viewership, comes more money, comes better players, comes better quality soccer, comes more viewership.
Soccer will never reach the level of the NFL right now (unless the NFL implodes because of brain damage, which is not actually out of the relm of possiblity), but even this country's ESPN/Univision coverage of the Portugal game (I believe?) drew the same viewership as the last NCAA football championship I believe. And you're right, it is World Cup fever, but some fans will stick around. I did after the 2010 World Cup, and I started going to DC United games as well. With each successive year, hopefully it will grow.
american business people want to make money. more or less, owners wants to make money on their sports teams.
they can't compete against foriegn oil sheiks who are willing to throw away literal tons of cash for the world's best players.
And that's being mighty charitable to MLS. It's lower-division soccer and unless that someday changes it's unlikely to ever draw attention like the NFL or the top end of college football no matter how popular soccer becomes.
What's more likely is that more and more fans will adopt teams in Europe, as more and more of our best players find spots over there. I saw a lot of NBA shirts when I was living in Europe; this is the same thing in reverse. I've watched Serie A in a packed bar in Chicago at 8am on a Sunday morning, with everyone going for espresso at halftime instead of beer. Liga MX, EPL--there are bars that show nothing but multiple soccer games 24/7 (well, as much of 24.7 as they're allowed to stay open).
Did you ever think an American network would offer every EPL game every weekend, just like they do the NFL? That was unthinkable twenty years ago.
You're wrong. It's growing immensly. Seattle's attendance is one the highest in the world. New MLS teams are popping up almost every year because owners are making money.
I love the NHL, but it's just a matter of time before it gets overtaken by MLS.
One thing that bugs me is that we seem to play our best when behind. You saw it vs. Portugal and it was that way tonight. Frustrating. Wish we could channel that energy from the beginning like the Red Devils did tonight. They were shot out of a cAnnon.
All in all I thought this was a positive tourney. Nobody said we would make it out of the group. Yeah Belgium looked to be the better squad although there were a couple of moments that could have been US goals. They definitely worked very hard and for that I am proud of them. Hurts for the moment and I'm not sure I'll be able to watch the next round but it's been a fun ride these last couple of weeks.
Looking forward to the start of qualifying and a Michigan football season.
This is how I feel. On a pure talent level (not experience) Belgium is one of the top teams in the world, probably right there with Germany. We could have one this game and I'm proud of the team for playing like they did. I hate that we lost, hate it. Sucks we have to wait another four years.
I've been watching US Soccer for over 20 years and I think this was our best team. Definetly our most interesting sqad and coach. I just wish he would have put Green in earlier, oh well.
No joke, the minute I saw them put the camera and that very large, Lebron James clone Belgium striker that came in early in the overtime, I knew he'd hurt the US, and he did, setting up the break away and ultimate goal, and then his own goal.
Watching this giant of a man go up for a ball against the US defender and shed him easily, and then sprint like a gazelle down the field to feed the pass for the first goal, I wondered what it would be like in this country if our Kobes and Lebrons trained in local soccer systems akin to what Germany does with its youth system...
Until then, the US in a World Cup final is not something I'll ever see in my lifetime.
elite success in soccer does not require 6'8 size. soccer is not really best played by basketball body types. it's not necessarily meant for the megatrons of the world either.
a life-long trained denard robinson, on the other hand--that would be a spectacle to behold.
the usa needs the 5'6-6'0ers among us to switch sporting allegiances.
lukaku is 6'3 and a freak. jozy is 6'1 and he looks like a behemoth out there.
Exactly this. You want to argue about seeing Barry Sanders, or Denard Robinson, or someone like DeSean Jackson? That's something to think about.
But not, LeBron, or Megatron, or any other of our "best" athletes. It bears repeating, the US isn't getting out-athlete'd when we play.
i'd argue that the majority of americans with the ideal soccer body do not train to be soccer players as their primary sport.
the problem is we have so many young kids grow up playing basketball and football, but then keep playing even after they stop growing and will never fill out enough to have a chance at being competitive at the highest level of those sports.
is barely big enough to even play shooting guard in the NBA. He's 6'3", 220.
If LeBron James had grown up in Germany he'd probably have become a great basketball player. Or maybe handball. Once he started growing his soccer career would have been over and they'd have pushed him towards something he was better suited for. It's not like these other countries don't have 6'9" guys they could put out there, if it was actually a good idea.
Belgium's goalie is 6'9. Although I'm perfectly happy with Howard.
yes if we go with the athlete meme and basketball is stealing all of soccer's players lets at least focus on point guards which are probably the only guys who really fit on a soccer pitch (outside of GK). Chris Paul for example I'd love with that vision if he was a soccer player for 15 years.
As for football you'd want wiry players - there are not a lot of 220+ lb soccer players in this world - outside of men's over 30 rec league. Denard is a great example - the main positions would be DBs Ss smaller RBs... and slot WRs.... So that is actually a relatively sliver of athletes from that sport at least.
where you can be that much worse than another team and still have a very good chance of winning.
Uh, basketball? Baseball? College football even? International soccer is a pretty low variance sport.
both be that much worse and also play that much worse.
a 14 seed isn't going to beat a 3 seed unless they play the game of their season against a poor effort from the 2 seed.
...the eight group winners won all eight round-of-16 games.
The weaker team could, conceivably, have won a lot of those games (I'm not sure Chile or Greece were actually weaker, but the others certainly were), but they didn't. Even when it goes to penalties, the stronger team tends to win. That's how these tournaments always go--there are lots of might-have-beens along the way but it's always one of that same usual handful of teams that's left standing at the end.
Here's another way of looking at it: there are 209 FIFA members, eight of them are left in the tournament. At least one of those teams has been in every final since WW2. They made up both finalists in six of the last ten.
That's low variance, that is.
goals are so hard to come by, and even great teams can dominate and still find themselves unable to score. all it takes is one chance, but a worse team with worse players will be less likely to take that chance when it comes. so in the end the better team will win the vast majority of the time, but it will still look like the worse team really could have come out on top.
Hockey, too. Basically, any sport where you can ride a hot goalie.
...and I don't quite believe them. I wonder if Kicker's been hacked?
successful passes: US 570, Belgium 468
completion rate: US 84%, Belgium 83%
possession: US 54%, Belgium 46%
1v1 win rate: US 55%, Belgium 45% (OK, I believe that one.)
I'm not much of a believer in possession as a key to soccer victory, you can't take these as indicating the US was better or anything like that. But watching that game I would never have guessed that the US had more of the ball or were marginally more successful with their passing.
(There are passes and there are passes, of course.)
if howard had the most possession of anyone on the team.
here's a mildly interesting article on possession tracking that i randomly found earlier today when i saw those stats and was equally confused:
I didn't know about Opta's methods. Kicker's not using them or it would have been 55/45.
One thing I'm absolutely clear on: possession is not dominance and Italy's won four world cups because they understand that better than anyone else. You're never more vulnerable and less potent than when all 20 players are in the other team's end. For all Spain's possession in the last world cup, they scored nearly every goal on a counterattack. It's very, very hard to score against a competent, packed defense.
Funny that ESPN FC agrees with me that JK mismanaged his subs. But I'm sure you all still think I'm a fool.