That's good stuff for Michigan. I didn't realize that Michigan Law is more expensive than Harvard. Also, fuck Yale.
US News Best Law Schools, 2012
What is your beef with Yale again?
He goes to Harvard. They hate Yale like Michigan hates Ohio State or some shit like that.
The University of Wyoming really hates Colorado State University. While I don't really know why, I kinda find the rivalry silly. There is hardly any difference between the schools that I can see.
Hey, I never said his hatred of Yale wasn't stupid. Just stating where his hatred was coming from.
Hold the phone.
Michigan fans are calling out Harvard Fans for their unnatural hate for another school.
Hello? Kettle? Pot calling.
Would it make you feel any better if I told you that Michigan fans irrational hatred of all things OSU/ND/MSU is also stupid? The people who say they would refuse to let their children even think about attending one of those three schools are the worst of the worst.
To me, it's going to be all about the in-state rates, if and when I get around to sending apple-cheeked youngsters to college. That said, when you leave the Ohio Union and cross High Street, there is a tattoo parlor and a drug paraphernalia shop within sight of the Union and off-campus housing, so there's that.
And I obviously don't think you're any less of a Michigan fan for that. If it makes you feel any better, there is/was a tattoo parlor and drug paraphernalia shop within sight of Pizza House. There are actually a few on campus.
I've walked by Stairway to Heaven a few times. But there are two differences: one, the shops are literally 100 feet away from the Ohio Union. Stairway is all the way up by North University avenue. Two, these shops had fairly explicit ads on their windows, and Stairway disguises its entrance pretty well. There's also an extensive sex-and-drug-paraphernalia shop on High Street near the Wexner Center with window ads and "Must be 21 To Enter" signs.
Who says our hatred of tOSU is unnatural? It's the most natural thing in the world.
when you live in Ohio and have to listen to those people all the time, it would be unnatural not to hate tOSU. in fact, my attitude towards tOSU went from dislike to loathing within a few years of settling in here after law school.
Lucky for me, as I plan to go to Michigan Law and am from MI. If I don't get into NYU and can also suppress my natural instinct to stay in AA for another 3 years, which I probably will not be able to because I love this town and Michigan in general (read: sports). NYC ain't bad either though.
[double post deleted. I definitely hit "Save" only once. Noooo idea why this happened. Bug is still in the system.... an old friend came in from out of town.... plague... locusts... It wasnt my fault I swear to gawwwwd!!!]
Very interesti8ng stuff. To add to the discussion I would like to comment that I began watching BSG on Netflix about 3 weeks ago. Next episode is "scar" from season 2.5... It is probably the greatest show I've ever seen. Even my girlfriend enjoys watching it with me and this is a big deal considering she's more an American Idol/Bachelor person. Amazing show.
BSG will haunt you the rest of your life. When you're done with it, you'll be so exhilirated and emotionally crushed (that it's done) that no other TV will replace it. Completely sucks. The whiplashing of ups and downs is going to get worse, emotionally... it truly is a show by itself. How some fraking crap like "Boston Legal" could be nominated for an Emmy but not BSG, there is no rational explanation. That said, in the very final 6 episodes, they start getting a little heavy on the talking and not enough action, but they were saving their $$$ for the finale. They were going anti-Sopranno on the ending -- wanted a show to blow you out of the water. They do that. The denoument (explanation for everything) is, well, controversial. Some of us loved it, it puts the show on ANOTHER level that NO SHOW has ever done. Others, like Brian Our Fearless Leader, hated it. But don't say you weren't warned how it would end, they have been telling you the explanation for everything since "33."
BTW Scar is maybe top5, if you count some of the multi-episode shows as one. E.g., Pegasus / Resurrection Ship I / Resurrection Ship II.
I believe most Harvard law students hate Yale b/c they are mad their school isnt as good an experience. Yale is harder to get into (compare the sizes of the schools -- Yale is one of the smallest and Harvard one of the largest). Plus the environments are way, way different. If you've been on both law campuses, Yale is like an English castle, whereas Harvard is like 5 high schools built in different generations thrown together and connected by a cramped, steamy underground tunnel system. Harvard Law is SUPER competitive, whereas, Yale Law doesn't even have grades. The experiences are not even close. No kidding Harvard Law students are taught to hate Yale.
Of course, as a Stanford Law grad, I can honestly say Yale and Harvard students are ALL jealous of Stanford. Smallest law school in the country (of competitive schools), plus California weather, plus "Club Med" law school experience, plus California undergrads (seriously -- tossing frisbees in bikinis in September on the lawn right outside the law school) (not that they talked to law students) (and frankly, the hottest girl I met at SLS was a grad student in Med -- who was a Sparty undergrad) (and yet, Stanford did admit her) (dude, if you met Laura, you'd admit her too, ifyaknowwhatImean). I think I'm rambling.
Ivy flame war!
Ok, valid points about Yale, but I was accepted at Yale also so I don't know about the jealousy part. BTW, more students = larger alumni base = more friends when you get into the working world. Go check the major manhattan firms and see where most of the heavy hitters went. Also, to the guy who said MIT is the best, I have an MA from MIT and I still take classes there. Most Harvard students take classes and MIT and vice versa.
Look at the big brain on JimLahey!
I chose Harvard Law over Stanford Law. I was waitlisted by Yale Law. Neither I nor anyone I know from HLS hates Yale or Stanford. I work for the US Government, with a lot of HLS and YLS grads; I have never seen or heard any anymosity expressed between the two alumni bases; it just doesn't matter. I haven't worked with many Stanford Law grads, but the few I have known do seem to have an overinflated sense of what other people think of Stanford. Stanford Law students are the law school equivalent of Duke undergrads. ( (That
This sounds odd to me because I definitely experience the rivalry here. But you are already in the working world and I'm still in law school. What year did you graduate?
I have worked with a ton of YLS grads during the last 6 years as a government attorney, and I can honestly say that the "rivalry" has rarely, if ever, come up. For the most part, everyone is just focused on the mission. Once you've been out a few years, the importance of where you went to law school diminishes while the importance of other factors -- experience, ability to work with others, ability to deliver an effective closing argument, etc. -- increases. I can see this being more of an issue while you're in school, e.g., when you're competing with YLS students for summer jobs and clerkships, because your education is usually the centerpiece of your resume.
Now, I can't say this is true when it comes to football schools. There is always a lot of trash-talking between graduates of football schools. Usually, it's pretty good natured, even when it's heated. However, I did work at a private law firm dominated by ND grads. They seemed to take it seriously, and I think it affected their hiring decisions. That was weird to me.
2013 for me. Your post was very informative for me. (For I? For myself? Who gives a shit?)
I'll admit that maybe I'm looking at this through slightly rose-colored glasses. I just talked to my co-worker, who was an HLS classmate (and a ND grad; we talk a lot of smack; I also learned for the first time that he, too, chose HLS over Stanford), for a reality check. He didn't necessarily disagree with me, but he doesn't feel quite as strongly as I do. But I stand by my point. You are always going to get immediate respect because you went to HLS (or Yale, or Stanford, or Michigan), but I don't think the "rivalry" matters as much once your resume fills up with other things. Speaking of which, I should probably get back to the task of filling my resume with work accomplishments. Go Blue and good luck!
Excellent, you return to your work and I will return to sitting in front of my laptop in my boxers researching case studies. Ahhh, the good life!
ND alums are unto themselves when it comes to parochialism in business decisions. There are two economies in the United States: the national economy, and the Notre Dame economy. ND alums hire ND accountants, ND lawyers, ND vendors, have ND customers, etc.... It affects their hiring decisions, buying decisions, consultant decisions, etc.
For over 10 years, I have served on my law firm's hiring committee. No one on the committee seems to favor any potential hire based on where he attended school--other than a couple Buckeye law grads, who always try to lobby for their people. It sort of amuses the rest of use, and probably works against their candidates at the margins. Talk about an inferiority complex.
to have such strong feelings for a benign school like Yale. Does the Law School bother you, or the whole school?
There isn't a bigger Michigan fan on this earth than me, but I do go to Harvard, and I learned very quickly to hate Yale.
There isn't a bigger Michigan fan than "I." Sorry - I had to do it.
Lol touché. The best part about going to harvard is that I get made fun of everytime I make a mistake, "come on, I thought you're supposed to be smart!"...I hear this often.
Who did you root for in the last two Amaker bowls?
If I may make a suggestion. This is only an issue because you seem to mention that you go to Harvard with approximately every breath. If you did not mention this so often others would not realize and would let you be.
Just trying to help.
Not to start a grammar war on these here boards, but I think "me" is correct here, since it's being used as the object of a preposition. You wouldn't say "There isn't a bigger Michigan fan around I."
For the record, my dad taught me that in the Harvard - Yale rivalry, it was always MIT that got the last laugh.
I agree that "than me" is correct. I often see/hear the overcorrection of using "I" instead of "me" for the object of sentence way too often. It makes me crazy.
Meanwhile, I am glad my Law School is doing well (JD '87), but I like to think of them in the top 3 or 4, where I think Michigan Law belongs. Its biggest problem is the ability to draw faculty these days because of the need to find employment for faculty spouses (male or female). Schools in or near larger cities are more likely to have options for the brainiac spouses that law professors (or any professors) seem to have. Ann Arbor is a great place -- the greatest place -- but the rise of dual professional couples have made it harder to recruit into the stereotypical college town.
It's not an object here. It sounds strange, but if you follow through with these types of sentence, it makes sense. (My grandmother drilled this into me). Example: "He is taller than I am tall." vs. "He is taller than me am tall." Hence, "He is taller than I" is correct.
And for the record, I am a graduate of U of M (LSA) and Harvard Law. I agree with the above: Michigan, always Michigan.
reminds me of an episode of The Office, where they were debating whether whoever or whomever was correct. Great stuff. I feel like the blog is coming back to normalty when these are the discussions taking place.
Ryan: You know what I really want? What I really want is for you to know (the computer system) so you can communicate it to your people here, to your clients, to whomever ...
Michael: (Snort) OK.
Michael: It's whoever not whomever.
Ryan: It's whomever.
Michael: No. Whomever is actually never right.
Jim: Well, sometimes it's right.
Creed: Michael is right. It's a made-up word used to trick students.
Andy: No. Actually, whomever is the formal version of the word.
Oscar: Obviously, it's a real word, but I don't know when to use it correctly.
Michael (to camera): Not a native speaker.
Kevin: I know what's right. But I'm not going say, because you're all jerks who didn't come to see my band last night.
Ryan: Do you really know which one is correct?
Kevin: I don't know.
Pam: It's whom when it's the object of a sentence and who when it's the subject.
Phyllis: That sounds right.
Michael: Sounds right, but is it right?
Stanley: How did Ryan use it, as an object or a subject?
Ryan: As an object.
Kelly: Ryan used me as an object.
Stanley: Is he right about that ... ?
Toby: It was: Ryan wanted Michael, as the subject, to explain the computer system, the object, to whomever, meaning us, the indirect object, which is the correct usage of the word.
I think "whomever" is for talking about the object and "whoever" is for talking about the subject of the sentence. I'm probably wrong but that rule's helped me decide whether or not to stick in the extra "m" a few times so it might come in handy for you.
but as an engineer, I have no idea what a preopsition is, and would have a hell of a time distinguishing between the object and subject of a sentence.
In other words
Me good at Math.
"Some of us like me are very good at English, and some others no have way."
but some are more lowly than others. cough*MSU*cough
I remember once in the late 80s Michigan got into the top 5. Glad to see we're staying firmly in the T-14.
But what do the Cooley rankings say?
but wt frak are the 'cooley rankings' ? is that a reference to the law firm or the law school in Michigan.
Cooley law school's "objective" ranking system. It ranks schools on things like square footage, number of seats in the library, how many internet ports each building has, etc. Cooley finished second last year, behind Harvard.
Having known a few ND law students during my time there, I am especially delighted to see us owning them here (ND down at #23 - a bad loss, and they might drop out of the top 25 :p ).
Well at ND Law we do have a ton of HOT CHICKS! Actually, no, no we don't. They are tremendously unattractive. But it at least has a seriously sweet alumni network, really helped me get a job.
It's certainly not stupid, although i understand your point. It is rooted in deep tradition, much of it in sports, just like Michigan - OSU. Furthering the rivalry is the fact that Yale and Harvard are considered the top schools in the country, if not world...unlike Michigan vs OSU which isn't even an academic contest when compared with each other. When I get into the working world, I will meet executives and important people who went to harvard and Yale. Those who went to harvard will give me preferential treatment, those who went to Yale will not. Every time I fail to do something in life that a Yale graduate succeeds at, I will be chastised by my friends and peers for having failed to further the Harvard cause.
You look and ask why two similar schools would hate each other so much, but the rivalry is rooted in the competition resulting from similarity.
That is a damn good point and you've shown me an entirely new way of looking at most rivalries Mr Lahey. I always saw Michigan vs OSU and Michigan vs MSU as different cultures, which fueled the rivalry, and that was how I defined what a rival was to me. I learned something tonight...thank you.
No prob, it's a completely different animal but still a heated rivalry.
My wife graduates from Duke Law in May. They dropped to #11 from #10 last year, that Kyrie Irving injury is hurting the Law School ranking too lol. She was a Michigan undergrad :)
Why is the instate/out of state discrepancy so small for law school when for undergrad or other grad/professional schools it is 2-3 times higher? Just curious.
It was actually the same for my Masters in Accounting that I got back in 2007. I think I saved all of 3k ( or slightly more) being in state. Needless to say I am still paying that off.
UM Law and undergrad grad here, both out-of-state. My understanding when in law school (class of '07) was that the reason for the similar tuition is that the law school receives even less money from the state than the undergrad school does. I think the law school gets something like less than 1% of its money from the state. That, and, well, frankly, the market will bear it.
/See George Michael above.
Tuition has gotten outrageous.
Gotta give mom and dad a huge thanks for footing the bill during my three years in Ann Arbor for law school. I can't imagine busting my ass, getting to April of 3L with a brain that resembles oatmeal only to finish with a mountain of debt. I is lucky.
"I can't imagine busting my ass, getting to April of 3L with a brain that resembles oatmeal only to finish with a mountain of debt."
Yeah - sucks to be poor, amirite Mr. leather-bound books? How's that single malt?
I intended no offense, though re-reading my original comments I can see how it came off the way it did. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of how crazy lucky I am.
It sucks. I think I still have 75K-80K in debt, about 30 of which is variable rate private loans. Thank god interest rates have been so low over these years, might be able to get rid of those before interest rates rise significantly.
But at least I graduated before the bottom fell out of the market. And I'd probably already have all the private loans paid off and then some if I weren't married and didn't spend a bunch of money on sending my wife to grad school. I feel kinda bad for the people who graduated in '09, '10 and paid even more than I did for school while having job prospects that were significantly worse than mine through no fault of their own, the job market was fantastic when they started school.
Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, paying around $1600/month in law school loans. . . and will be until I'm in my late-40's. The debt burden makes it impossible for it to have been a good financial decision for me unless making $100k/year, minimum, which is obviously very, very doable with an M Law degree, but it also sort of handcuffs your options. I definitely knew that the post-graduate debt burden would be a pain in the ass, but, well, living the reality of it vs. conceptualizing it at "some point in the future, after graduation" is obviously different.
Does anyone here have a JD but didn't do the typical big law/clerkship route afterwards? Does anyone have any insight as what someone with a JD can do as far as hedge funds/private equity goes?
It can absolutely be done. If you go to a top 10 or top 15 law school, the best way to get there might be to work for a big firm for a couple years in their private equity department and then transfer over to a hedge fund. I also know that, at least back when I was doing it, if you put your mind to it, you could land an interview with a large investment bank- the kind they give to the MBA students. It can definitely be done.
would be the one that kills its students and feeds them to feral pigs.
Law schools need to do a better job of providing their students insight into opportunities outside of the practice of law. The world doesn't need any more lawyers. They could cap it right now and we'd all be better off. The world does need the thinkers and problem solvers that a great law school like Michigan Law produces.
For the kind of money they ask, the law schools should be illuminating long term options in all fields that the students can build towards. Just producing more litigators is actually way beneath the greatness of U of M.
I was a lawyer. For every 100 lawyers I met, I met less then 5 that should have actually been lawyers. The rest were in it for the money but weren't cut out for tougher disciplines like engineering. I was a sad member of that group.
I can't speak to U of M at all. I sure hope they are producing great minds who have clear goals beyond arguing and racking up billable hours on pointless cases for rich people. I'll assume that since it is Michigan, they are out front leading the way on being better.