John Feinstein at the WaPo rakes Meyer over the coals.
Urban Meyer gets called out in WaPo for Hall decision
Feinstein commented on this early on his morning show. He also threw Jim Delaney and the B1G under the bus (justifiably) calling the division name a complete hypocrisy if you don't hold the players to their actions.
I was at The Game this year, and I saw several players from both teams flipping the bird over the course of 3+ hours. So I have mixed feelings about punishing a player solely because he got caught on national TV doing it.
Hall should've known that the cameras would be on him after an ejection, but he got punished then shouldn't the refs started penalizing EVERY single player that does it? Like having one official who's sole job is to monitor the sidelines and make sure everything is staying PG.
Ultimately, Hall should have probably recieved an additonal 1-game suspension I think though. Just for the sake of consistency.
The main problem i had was that the Big ten reviewed this and nobody else got suspended wheny ou can clearly see other guys throwing punches. I'm ok with 2 of the guys getting ejected and thats that but Hall should have gotten at least another half game for his exit and a few others for throwing punches. Watch the replay and you can see number 83 for the buckeyes throwing a punch
Isn't the reviewing of punches on video the reason we had the RR and Hope issue? We had a player suspended a game for a punch vs. ND and the following week RR basically forced the hand of the BIG 10 to look into the Purdue player doing the same thing. This begat the famous scene where Hope brings the player up to RR in an attempt to embarass him (RR).
So, is it now ok to throw punches or is it time and place dependent?
I only comment on coaches who coach for Michigan. I kid i kid. I thought the big ten issued a statemtn when Ghoulson got suspended for punching Lewan that any player throwing a punch in a game would be suspended. I know it wasn't always like this because i remember David Boston and Woodson throwing punches at eachother and just having off setting penaltys.
And nary a fuck was given. Urbz gonna Urb.
I didn't notice this until just now, but look at Kenny Guiton coming from behind telling him to stop. At least he knew it was wrong.
Good catch. I hadn't noticed that before.
Note to self: Guiton is not one of the a-holes.
Oh here's a blast from the past. Mr. Hall doesn't go anywhere with out his attorney and confidante, Mr. Smith.....
Hall would get suspended for a game for flipping the bird. It's not the bad of a thing anymore, but I do however think RJS should be suspended for the rest of the season including not being able to travel to the bowl game for ripping Dontre Wilson's helmet off. That could have ended his career and/or life if not careful....ie Denard's head from the Gholston twist. Just my two cents.
So in turn you also agree Braxton Miller should get the same punishment you imply that RJS should get?
glass houses man.
with a Lewan suspension but only for a game or two not the entire season. He twisted and let go and Miller only grabbed the facemask. I didn't see him twist and rip off a helmet like RJS did.
I have a hard time getting worked up over this when I think about concussions, two of the last handful of Heisman winners almost certainly taking money (Newton and Maziel), oversigning, ESPN's borderline monoply over coverage of college sports (which co-exists with them being in the business of selling college sports), and the fact that schools make huge amounts of money off of guys like Denard Robinson while giving them relatively little in return. I tire of sportswriters who use small incidents as chances to jump on a moral high horse all while ignoring much bigger issues like the ones I just listed (especially concussions). If nothing else, doesn't Feinstein have an article to write about how great Duke is?
Extremely well said Eric. I would just ask this question - if one of our players did this in Columbus, say a Jake Ryan for example, in a game we won - would we be collectively upset and demanding he be suspended or would we be congradulating him?
I'm guessing the vast majority of the board wouldnt want him suspended.......
Do you really think that Jake Ryan would do something like that? Well, supposing that he did, then I would say yes, definitely, suspend him. That's just me.
As for what Eric writes, I don't disagree at all with any of it, but it seems quite the red herring here.
Meanwhile, people should check out other writers like Dave Zirin if they are tired of the John Feinsteins out there.
My point - perhaps not well made - is that what Hall did isn't worth paying attention to. He made an ass out of himself after a fight. He apologized on Twitter. He'll have to run some stairs. Case closed.
Speak for yourself. I'd expect repercussions, no matter what the next game was.
Actually, several weeks ago there was a large group of people on this blog who wanted Taylor Lewan suspended for his actions against MSU. I think if Jake Ryan did this in Columbus, a lot of us would want some sort of punishment for him. We're not all clueless homers.
It may seem like I think I am holier than thou, but I would cry for Jake Ryan to be suspended.
The thing is...Jake Ryan didn't do it. Hypocrisy cannot be claimed in an argument over a hypothetical situation. Jake Ryan didn't do it. I have no reason to think he would have done it either. It didn't happen. The above? it happened.
But now....forever in B1G play....it is OK to do what he did. And this causes me sad.
Isnt that exactly the point of a hypothetical? To propose something that didnt happen so you can discuss the "what if"?
Of course it didnt happen and my point, perhaps poorly stated, was not that ALL Michigan fans would support such a thing if he did it. My point was that I believe the majority of fans would as they would see it as an act of defiance to a crowd (OSU's) we dont like very much.
I have no way of knowing if this would acually happen though. Just a guess.
Fair enough. I see what you mean. We don't really disagree. I am just passionate about stuff like this at the college level.
I am definitely ruled by an opinion that I truly would not believe many UM palyers ever would do what Hall did. They may WANT to, but they would not do it. Plus, UM would escort a player off better, accordiing to the regualtions to which the B1G supposedly adheres.
And yeah, I am in the group that wanted Lewan suspended a game.
And again, gosh darn it, it is now ok, forever and ever, to flip off the crowd in the B1G. That botheres me. Also, it is OK to continue to act like a fool after you have been kicked out just because you have already been kicked out. I find this sad.
OK, I am done with my bitter old man stuff, carry on, heh.
Oh come on, it was pretty hilarious when it happened. Why does this actively make you sad? We watch football to be entertained, and it was entertaining at the time. It's over now though, and I agree with the people questioning why we still care about this. It seems kind of petty to still be discussing this and hoping that he is suspended so it hurts their title game chances.
In terms of hypocrisy, I see where the arguments come from. It's not that posters on mgoblog are hypocritical in terms of what kind of punishment they think players deserve; for example, most people thought Lewan should have been suspended after the MSU game. But it is definitely hypocritical/homerish to continue to bring up Urban not suspending hall when Hoke didn't suspend Lewan. It was brought up once the other day, everyone voiced their opinions, and that should have been the end of it. Rehashing it again isn't accomplishing anything.
It was entertaining I admit. But should not be in college football. Have a Pro minor league if it is needed. Should not be in college football, is what I feel. Teach a lesson to the student athlete. I do come from an old school point of view. You should not do that it is wrong. Simple. I know there are all kinds of reasons why it is tolerated (money is the biggest), but I just don't like it.
I don't want to rehash the suspensions any more either. But I am on record of being disgusted that Lewan was not suspended for what he did. Just a new way of doing things I don't like.
It has been blessed by their non-action. He did it in full view of the fans, on national television. They have given their tacit approval to this action. I think someone should do it during the course of every game.
Hall would be issuing a public appology to the fans he flipped off (funny how he has issued a social media appology to the Buckeye fans), and privately he'd be running steps for a few days.
Otherwise, ain't no big deal really. He had clearly lost his temper ... no one was hurt except maybe the bench and his foot.
I also think both Buckeyes in question should play against Michigan State. This really was a non-event that was handled on scene.
What does that even mean?
A 'non-event' -- people are still talking about it days later, precisely because it so rarely happens. It's by definition an 'event' ; you may not care about it, but it very untypical behavior that was very noticeable. How often has what Marcus Hall did happen at a UM (or OSU or MSU or ...) home game?
And how was it 'handled'? He had alerady been kicked out of the game (i.e., punished) when he THEN did all that nonsense (throwing helmet, kicking bench, flipping off fans). He suffered zero meaningful punishment for that. It wasn't handled at all.
His actions aren't the end of the world and aren't as bad as other behavior (e.g., off the field stuff like DUIs) -- but it still should have been punished in some small, meaningful way (e.g., suspended for 1st half of his next game). It wasn't.
Did you see the reaction after Lewan's antics in the MSU game? A good portion of the board expected him to be suspended or punished in some way (I don't have the exact numbers but it wasn't just a couple peopple).
If Ryan/Lewan/whomever came off the bench to join a fight, threw his helmet afterward, kicked over a bench and then flipped off the fans with both middle fingers, I'd certainly want him suspended, at least for the first half of the next game.
Essentially, Hall suffered zero reprecussions for his post-fight antics, which ultimately means that's acceptable behavior (oh, Meyer did say he was 'disappointed' and Hall did get a 'public reprimand' -- I'm sure he's all torn up about what Jim Delany thinks of him). I don't think that's OK.
To be fair, didn't Lewan do more than give people the finger? Twisting guys' helmets, late hits, etc. If that Diane merit a suspension, I don't see how Hall's behavior would.
As for Hall, Meyer said there'd be internal consequences for Hall and Wilson, just no loss of playing time.
What are you talking about? You completely glazed over the part where Hall came off the bench and started throwing punches at Michigan players, THEN started kicking shit on the bench, THEN flipped off the crowd as he left. You only compared what Lewan did to the last scene of that maniacal act.
He didn't come off the bench; OSU had just gotten the ball back and the offense was coming into the field when the fight started. Moreover, Hall was ejected for the fight; he's served his time. Lewan played the entire game and missed no time. The two cases are not really comparable.
Surely you jest!
Without a doubt, Hall came off the bench. He wasn't involved in the kickoff return and shouldn't have in any way been involved in the direct aftermath of the kickoff play.
If there's not already a CFB rule prohibiting players in such a situation from entering the field and being involved, the rules committee needs to give this a hard look and institute one.
Nobody forced Denard Robinson to play at Michigan. Plus he did get a $219,636 education for free since he was on full athletic scholarship.
Plus for every kid like Denard that brings in tons of cash for the athletic department there are 80-84 other guys who don't.
...trying to start that argument. I'm just saying that it's something worth discussing - moreso than Hall flipping us all the bird.
I hear you. In the grand scheme of things it is such a small thing.
I didn't mean to jump on you but the idea that college athletes are victimized because they don't get a piece of the TV and apparel money grinds my gears. $220K is a life changing amount of money especially if it is used to further educate oneself at Michigan. So what if the athletic department rips off Denard Robinson by selling thousands of #16 jerseys modeled after his likeness to pay for the 699 other student athletes at the university college tuition is expensive.
It's not just the scholarship. I think of as an apprenticeship. They get special instruction, facilities, exposure and the opportunity to hone their craft in preparation for their future career.
Yep. Plus the stage the play on raises their profile allowing more exposure to potential future employers.
The free education argument is tired and played out.
Everyone says, "Are you kidding me, I'd love a free ride to Michigan! Those kids have it made."
OK, but you're not thinking it through.
Imagine a world in which you were offered a full ride to Michigan on the condition you work 40 hours a week in the AD.
MICHIGAN: Hey, you want a free ride to U of M?
YOU: Hell yeah! Where do I sign up?
MICHIGAN: Right here....OK, good. Congrats on your free ride to Michigan.
YOU: Awesome. So I've always wanted to be an enigneer and I was thinking--
MICHIGAN: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! You don't get to choose your own major.
YOU: What kind of BS is that? I'm at the school. I'm a student now. I should get to choose my own major.
MICHIGAN: Haha! That's cute. You think you can just be whatever you want to be. Well, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Engineering is too time consuming what with your job in the AD. We think you'd be best suited for general studies. So that's your major.
YOU: I don't want to be a general studies major. What the hell can I do with that? I've always wanted to be an engineer.
MICHIGAN: Too bad, buddy. You signed the contract. We own you now. You're an employee of the AD first, a student second.
YOU: I never would have signed up for this had I known.
MICHIGAN: What's wrong with you, cry baby? You're getting a free ride to Michigan fergodsakes! You should be grateful.
YOU: But what is the point of even going to college if you can't do what you want to do with the rest of your life, and instead you're shoehorned into an ultimately useless major?
MICHIGAN: LOL! That's your problem, not ours.
You: Who came up with this bullshit system?
MICHIGAN: Hey, if you end up being a particularly good employee you might be able to land a job at ALRO Steel when you graduate.
You: You suck.
Many people work full time while attending college. I feel for athletes who have to pay their own way and still commit to the demanding sports schedule like walk ons have to. But kids on scholarship know the deal when they sign the letter of intent.
Plus, aside from Hand there aren't a large contingent of big time recruits or Football Players who want to be engineers. On the BBall team Jordan Morgan is an engineering major. I knew some Women's soccer players who were engineering majors during my time at UofM. Plus Mark Huyge was a Naval Architecture and Marien Engineering Major when I was at UofM. So it can be done.
My friend was on the soccer team, and she wanted to be a business major (was hoping to own her own business/gym one day). Her advisor, however, was very persistent in her becoming a sociology major even though she said had no interest in the subject.
Now she's graduated, working as a personal trainer with a Sociology degree from Michigan that she'll probably never use.
I love how you use an anecdotal argument after you criticize mine for being anecdotal. Pot calling the kettle black?
It's almost like he's countering your argument by highlighting it's major flaw with the exact same kind of argument....
But my 3 anecdotes out number his 1. Thereby making mine a trend. /s
In all seriousness the steering athletes into easy majors is true in some regards because not all athletes at UM are the greatest students but I don't think it is the case every single time. Remember they have to keep these atheletes academically eligible so that they can compete. If a kid gets a 2.5 GPA their freshman year they probably aren't going to be encouraging him/her to major in STEM fields. If a kid gets a 3.5 GPA freshman year I'm sure they let them major in whatever he/she chooses.
Right, so by your own admission then, using the "they're getting a free education" argument is total bunk, because what are they really getting? Certainly not the same sort of education you or I would receive.
We get to select our own majors, our own courses, make our own decisions with regard to planning out a career path.
They are shuffled into general studies and forced to take an academic path not centered around receiving an actual education, but rather staying above that magical eligibility line.
That's why whenever anyone brings up these sorts of arguments, it is complete and utter nonsense.
They are still getting a free education. What that education is in has to keep the athlete eligible while not conflicting with practice times. Beggars can't be choosers, if they want to go to UM no strings attached they can apply on their own academic merit and be admitted with out athletic consideration. Fact is most athletes wouldn't get admitted this way.
I wonder about the underlying assumption that the value of the free education players receive is the value of the tuition, books, etc. Many athletes are serious students who will receive a degree and it will be an important part of their future. For those athletes, the valuation makes sense. Many of the marquee players in football and basketball, however, are primarily focussed upon a professional athletic career. The value to those players of the academic value of the University is next to nothing. In fact, the educational experience is an obtacle to their focus on athletics. I think there is more merit to the argument that the marquee players receive athletic training and the big stage to showcase their talents. I don't know how you quantify the value of those assets, but the uncertainty of a professional athletic career has to reduce that value. I favor some type of compensation to players, but understand and respect that many people cannot cross that line. I just don't think it is as simple as saying the marquee athletes are receiving x number of dollars worth of education when they are not really in the market for education.
I agree with everything you say with one exeption, the stipend. All full scholarship athletes recieve a $2000 per month allowance for food (beyond training table) and housing. This is why many athletes stay at school during the summer months to continue training on site but to keep the $2000/month gravy train rolling in. It is very easy for athletes to live comfortably on $2000/month.
$800 dollars a month in food ($200 a week seems a bit much)
that leaves $1200 to find a place to live. I don't know about you but the places I lived in college were around $1200 a month split between 2 or 3 people.
So frugal athletes are reasonably pocketing $500 a month. But I guess when you throw in your $500 car note then yea money is tight.
Yep, that's exactly how I'm sure it goes. Word for word. So, uh.... explain how we've had engineers and business majors on the team before? How we've had athletes do pre med? The strongest argument you can make is that they're pushed in one direction or another and that they might lose playing time if they don't submit. But that's a reasonable trade off, I think.
Hoke no longer allows kids to do engineering and be on the football team. It is now program policy. Apparently you were not aware of this. You must have missed the entire Hand episode.
Also, please tell me what the major is for the overwhelming majority of football players. Thanks.
This isn't meant to be a criticism of U of M specifically, but rather major college sports as a whole.
Jim Harbaugh might have been a dick about what he said, but he wasn't wrong.
Michigan shuffles these kids into bunk majors, many times against their will, just like almost every other school with a big time athletic program.
I know for a fact that certain guys wanted to do other things but were essentially forced into general studies because "We think that's what is best for you."
The free education argument is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
There was a time when they were students who were compensated for being an athlete.
That is no more.
They are now athletes who are compensated for the inconvenience of being a student.
Here is how you deal with the Hand scenario; you tell him he can major in engineering. He comes in freshman year in the engineering program and takes ENG 100, Math 115, Chem 116, and an elective. If he can play football and do well in those classes then perhaps he can stay in engineering. If he does poorly you say to him that in order to stay eligible he should consider switching majors. Nobody wins if an athlete is academically ineligble and on full scholarship.
$220K free out of state tution, room and board, books and fees is not bull shit.
You seem to be missing the point. Yes, they are pushed in certain directions. I know that happens at Michigan all the time, even in non revenue sports. They don't take your scholarship away if you fail to comply, though. You get benched. Again, it's a trade off. They want to play though, so they decide it's in their best interest to take the easier major. Who cares if you disagree with them on that point?
I guess I did miss that Hoke has a policy against football players majoring in engineering. Does somebody have a link that substantiates this, or did I miss the sarcasm?
Patrick Omameh majored in engineering, so there is no hard-and-fast rule that you can't do it. Da'Shawn Hand, though, sure seems to have been steered away from engineering. This, combined with people saying that they've known U of M players to be steered into easier majors, leads people (I think I'm right about this) to believe that Michigan attempts as an institution to get guys to pick comparatively easy majors but at the same time does't flat-out bar them from choosing harder majors.
Agreed with everything you said.
I'm not in favor of the University paying kids directly but if Addidas or Wheaties or whatever wants to pay Denard to smile in front of a camera who cares? Opponents will respond with the free education agrument, playing for the team, etc. all the meanwhile buying up Addidas and Nike gear, watching the TOSTITOS Fiesta Bowl, etc. It doesn't fit into their narrative of college athletics even though that narrative has not existed since the 1950s.
Let the market dictate their worth. If the market thinks Denard is worth more than his scholarship, so be it. If it doesn't, so be it.
that a post football year of additional tuition (to pursue the degree or classes that were too challenging while playing) and health insurance for football related injuries / diasbilities would be what most players would like to see.
I could see that and the stipend as well. I also think the health insurance part should include assistance taking the muscle and weight back off in a healthy way.
On the other hand most of these guys do not go on to the NFL, and their prime opportunity for endorsement income, ect. is while they are playing in college. Much like Olympic atheletes - as long as it is above board and reported - I don't have a problem with them making money on their fame. (This especially over paying Al Borges more than his results are worth, not to mention paying for skywriting and additional "marketing" staff.)
Just because there are lots of problems doesn't mean this isn't a problem. Should every journalist write every article about concussions until the problem is fixed?
...they should focus on the things I listed or other big issues. This just wasn't worth writing about, IMO. I reminds me of the "news" about George H.W. Bush (no endorsement implied or not implied) not liking broccoli. The man was the president of the United States, and that's what people were writing about?!
I think it's notable when athletes (who are role models) aren't held accountable by their coaches (who are leaders of young men) or their governing institutions.
John Feinstein isn't going to solve world hunger. He writes about sports. This is a sports story. I'm not his biggest fan, but for all I know, he's already written about concussions, amateur athletes being used by schools, etc.
I'm good with Hall running stairs until he pukes, but I see the argument for making him sit out part of a game...My problem with Feinstein is that he calls Meyer "despicable" and "everything that is wrong with college sports." I wouldn't buy the "I'm just a sports writer" defense from Feinstein when he's essentially saying Meyer is a bad person. That's saying a hell of a lot more than "Meyer is making a mistake by not sitting Hall."
Meyer is a slimeball. Just so there's no confusion.
WHY DOES JOHN FEINSTEIN LIKE WORLD HUNGER???
article would be about why athletes would be seen as role models. The money they make? The work they put in to make that money? Are actors role models? Why exactly would you tell your kid that athletes should be viewed at all as role models? I mean are there athletes who would make good role models? Sure, but they are not really role models because they are athletes.
I didn't say they're good role models. But whether we like it or not, they ARE role models. Kids look up to them and try to emulate them. Parents name their kids after athletes. It's no coincidence that a bunch of kids born in the beginning of the 1990's are now popping up in college sports named "Shaquille."
Perhaps b/c they are on TV and literally hundreds of thousands of people cheer them on, often wearing their jerseys to identify with them? That people name their kids after them and arraneg their entire weekends around their activities?
No on has to "tell" kids anything; they see how people react and fawn over athletes. It's up to parents to do their best and inform kids that behavior like Hall's is poor sportsmanship and is being a poor teammate, but you can't be around them all the time.
That's a parenting problem. Teach your kids and stop looking to others to raise.
Let me know if you find a good way to legislate proper parenting...
Not sure if you have kids, but they don't listen to everything you say, even if you personally model the behavior and say it multiple times. Shocking, I know.
So a little help from the culture at large, and 'leaders of young men' like Urban Meyer, would be nice. You know, since these are "student-atheletes" representing the university, and all.
EDIT: Meant to be a response to goblue2011
I guess a degree from the University of Michigan don't mean dick these days. Hardly any better than a certificate from WCC, right?
I'm not saying he received nothing...We would all likely agree that Miguel Cabrera was underpaid if he made $1 million per year despite the fact that, for most people, that's a hell of a lot of money...All of that said, I do have to wonder how much a general studies degree is worth. It bothers me that Hand, for example, wasn't given a crack at engineering at Michigan.
tried to stop Hall....or congratulate him?
Tried to drag his arms down. Eventually trapped them in a bear hug going up the tunnel.
From everything I've heard/read about Guiton, he's a pretty good guy. I imagine he was trying to get Hall to put his arms down.
Guiton was named one of the team captains this year. He has the talent to start at most major college programs, but has been steadfast in staying with OSU. From the sounds of it, he's a pretty levelheaded kid.
Exactly right. And for those that think if Miller leaves OSU is going to take a big step backward I invite them to watch the Cal-OSU game or any of the others where he got significant playing time.
That dude is good. VERY good.
He is also a senior this year.
(Guiton is a senior)
Guiton is out of eligibility either way. Or did you just mean that OSU will always have another guy?
That wouldn't do us any good, since Guiton is a senior.
My bad. I thought he had a year left.
are certainly not the only one.
Wow. I am surprised he did not go elsewhere to seek consistent playing time. Likely still a pro prospect but it would seem that he would have sought out a place where he could have contributed regularly.
Also, when trying to gauge an offensive player's competence and abilities, the very very last place you should look is their performance against Cal. Cal makes everyone look good.
how many years of eligibility Guiton has left?
Twice in the game BM was guilty of grabbing M face masks. He came into the melee and grabbed our player but was never whistled. On Clark's PF he did the same thing. If this has been a M hockey game most of the OSU offense would have been ejected for being "third man in".rule.
--let alone the B12 championship--it would be difficult to convince me that there are any/many coaches who would do differently. Thinking that Brady would do differently would be mere self-satisfying speculation. And if he did, there would likely be a firestorm here--by many, not necessarily all.
Geez, third commentor on the article gives a pretty one sided analysis of how he saw it go down.
#23 Dennis Norfleet horse-collars Dontre Wilson, then #86 Jehu Chesson cheap shots him. 7 Wolverines then jump in gang style. #22 Jarrod Wilson actually throws the first blow with an elbow to Wilson's head. #52 Royce Jenkins Stone rips Wilson's helmet off. #44 Delano Hill actually head butts a helmet-less Wilson with his helmet while choking him with his right arm, which prompts Wilson's punch. BTW Hill punches Wilson back and never gets ejected.
I saw it a bit differently but to each his own. I think by "blow" he means shoving. I watched it a few times and only saw the punches thrown and thought the refs did a very good job. Hill was certainly agressive but did not throw a punch. RJS deserved what he got for the helmet pull. Can't wait to beat these fools next year.
and I'm honestly okay with Hall not getting suspended, BUT...the issue should have been addressed. This isn't good sportsmanship and as much as I hate osu and Urbz and would love for them to get raked over the coals of public opinion, this isn't the way Hall should represent their university or the B1G. If suspension isn't the punishment, tell us what he will get instead. Community service, 100 laps around the shoe...SOMETHING. It should be addressed by the coach or the university and some punishment given.
would stick in his craw enough.
the force with which Hall dealt out that double bird. If you watch closely, once the decision was made that they were going up the move was very decisive, it was really a full body action as opposed to just the arms. It was actually very well executed.
Did anyone REALLY expect Meyer to do anything? Really?
I can't imagine what an OSU player would have to do to actually get suspended from the Big Ten title game. Probably go up into the stands and punch a kid. And even then Urban would probably try to only suspend him for the 1st quarter.
Win At All Costs.
YEAH TOTALLY!!!!! MORAL SUPERIORITY FOR THE WIN, AMIRITE?!?!!?
Except that Hoke isn't suspending Jenkins-Stone for the bowl game for his efforts in that fight. Nor anyone else's unsportsmanlike participation (Jake Ryan comes to mind). And when it comes to "flipping the bird" he never suspended Taylor Lewan when he did it. But sure, rabble rabble.
Also, with respect to the "Urbz gonna Urbz" meme regarding player discipline, I won't defend his history in Florida. But I will note that this year he suspended Carlos Hyde 3 games for an incident in which all the charges were dropped and Roby for one game for an incident in which, again, no charges were filed.
Compare that to, say, Brady Hoke who only suspended Frank Clark (charged with second degree home invasion) for one game and Fitz Toussaint (charged with a DWI) for one game. Or to Jimbo Fisher who will absolutely not suspend Jameis Winston even though his accuser has alleged that he raped her and the DNA matches.
Ahhh, screw it. Logic be damned. URBZ GONNA URBZ!
Also, Hoke didn't suspend Lewan this year for his antics in the MSU game. I guess he must want to win at all costs too?
two years ago some on this board screamed bloody murder of Gholsten not being suspended by Michigan State.
One year latter Lewan does basically the same damn thing and doesn't get suspended and we hear pretty much crickets.
God forbid a Michigan player ever does what Hall did in the future.
also, I wasn't proud of the way Jake Ryan behaved on that play, along with a couple other Michigan players. They basically went right over in front of the ohio bench and chirped away. Things could have gotten much worse.
Looked to me like Ryan sprinted over to apologize/shake hands at the end of the skirmish and was rebuffed.
most definitely not apologizing
was too late to apologize.
A bunch of people here spoke up in favor of a suspension for Lewan.
not the majority, or at least the loudest, if I remember correctly. Also, Lewan's bad act so closely resembled Gholston's that not calling for discipline bordered on hypocrisy.
I was angry at the Gholston twist on Denard and thought he deserved to sit and I also posted here that Lewan deserved to get some bench time. I was not alone. Many others were embarassed by his behavior.
Trash talking has become part of the game but players that act out like this need to be disciplined. Otherwise it sends the wrong message. It is only my opinion but everybody directly involved in the fight need to understand that a lack of sportsmanship and bad behavior will be punished with missing playing time. UM and OSU players both.
First, I think that there will be repercussions for Hall. Urban Meyer publicly condemned the action. I have little doubt but that Hall will pay a price for the gesture. It will be a price that virtually no member of the MGoBoard had to pay the last time that any of us used the one-finger salute. Hall has been publicly reprimanded by the Conference, along with the OSU coaching staff for failing to effectively escort Hall from the field.
Second, I say again: that there is a strong institutional imperative to NOT issue routine suspensions that would impact playoff or championship games. It would be acceptable to me if Hall were instead suspended for game one of 2014; but he is already a fifth-year senior. He'll never be back to Michigan Stadium.
Third, I just know that a suspension for Hall is wrong, since it is John Feinstein who is suggesting it. Feinstein is an ass. Now my fervent hope is that GRIII lays a hard foul on a random Dukie tonight, and that the Dukie flips the bird in response. Hey, I can dream can't I?
Fourth (I almost forgot). Michigan fans would do well to just stfu about all of this. We didn't really distinguish ourselves in this episode. I happen to think that Dontre Wilson started the whole thing, by jumping up and trying to run over a couple of Michigan guys immediately after being downed on the return. It was a sort of physical expression of trashtalking. I don't think that Wilson tried to start a physical fight. But he started the post-play escalation. It is the same thing that Dennis Norfleet does repeatedly on his returns. Norfleet needs to be instructed very seriously to stop it.
I agree with you.
Hall was ejected for the fight which he served a punishment for during the game. He should be suspended for the national televised broadcasting of flipping off everyone. No reason they should be treated as one and the same incident.
You're gonna start suspending people for flipping the bird? That's a "run stadium stairs until you can't feel your toes" kind of infraction.
That is what a coach should do, but the institution should suspend the player. He embarrassed them. There were kids in the front trw and he basically told them to F off. Maybe he should sit a series or a quarter at least. I would be embarrassed if I was a teacher or admin at osu.
Is embarassing the institution grounds for a suspension? That's tremendously arbitrary. Are we going to discipline Stauskas for the stank-face or the 3-goggles? What about Hart's "Little Brother" comment? What about when a player gives the "shhhhh" sign in a visiting stadium? What about a guy who commits a bonehead penalty on the field? Or a guy who just drops an f-bomb generally?
Punching a guy is dangerous. Flipping the bird is unseemly and unbecoming. The chasm between the two is vast.
he likes to criticize Urban Meyer whenever he gets the opportunity. Everyone is just waiting to see if the "Florida Effect" starts creeping into OSU's program while Meyer is there.
Circle of trust, Bitches. Circle of trust.
That's at least a $10K and probably a $20K fine from the NFL.
In other words, a monthly mortgage payment.
is a punk!
Meh. He recruits and gets players that want an environment where this sort of action isn't really a problem. I think in the end, he will start feeling heart palpitations for it as it comes back to bite him. The B1G/NCAA may want to hit him with a punishment to protect their brand in the eyes of the fans, but I'm not going to sit in some moral judgment over not punishing a kid for flipping people off.
It isn't classy, but it isn't also doesn't have me thinking Hall is going to be shooting a guy in the head in a few years. Plus were all spending billions on a league that seems to specialize in teaching and reinforcing perverse ideals and morals.
We don't know that Hall isn't being punished. While I think Meyer is a dirt bag, I'd find it hard to believe that Hall isn't being subjected to some form of punishment. Game suspensions aren't the only way to punish a kid.
He deserves a suspension simply for being dumb enough to do that in front of a national television office. Until the 1978 Gator Bowl, Woody Hayes had the good sense to punch opposing players and band members in the tunnel--away from the prying eyes of the media.
Have we reached the point where game suspensions are the only acceptable punishments for players? I'm ok with him not being suspended. He didn't commit a crime and he wasn't caught cheating. He just made an ass of himself. Seems to me like exactly the kind of thing that should be handled in house.
I personally think penalties for verbal stuff and lewd gestures is dumb. It's football, worse stuff gets said and gestured on the play ground. It's bad sportsmanship and we should condemn it but a suspension is way over the top. Save the penalties for potentially dangerous stuff or things that gain an unfair advantage.
is that, according to the NCAA Rulebook , you can make a pretty strong argument, that by virtue of Braxton MIller leaving the team area, and joining into the fracas, and due to the fact that he wasn't sanctioned in the game itself, he should have received further punishment.
Bottom line, for a league that LOVES to trumpet how different it is from the other BCS Conferences (particularly the SEC) Delany and company have really dropped the ball on this one...And whenyou factor in the Tat 5...Well, best case it looks sketchy, worst case, abjectly hypocritical.
Not even close. You should know better than to come here with that.
The individuals received appropriate penalties, players got the required half season, coach got the virtual lifetime ban. Fair and consistent.
The program committed one of the worst violations NCAA sports has. The entire institution is like golf in that it relies on the participants to self-police. The CEO of the program hid known violations and then lied about them. It is such a stupid argument that nobody else knew. Who cares? The head coach knew! What the CEO did was far worse ( within context) than what USC did. Anything less than USC was not consistent.
It is shameful that the NCAA allowed OSU to argue that JT wasn't part of the OSU football institution.
The Big Ten publicaly reprimanded them. What more do you want.! I'm sure the players feel so bad about that they won't come out of their dorm all week.
Such a place exists?!?!
You haven't talked to a Penn State fan in the past two years, have you?
The players should be respectful of the game and their competitors. Fans yell at them every game and they aren't supposed to let that get to them, right? I'm not sure I would have enjoyed explaining to my kids what just happened. It's not acceptable public behavior especially with athletes serving as role models and ambassadors of their university. Hopefully a few parents just crossed OSU off the list of schools they want their son to play football for. You see that in public and it gives you an idea of what goes on behind the scenes.
Yes, I laughed at the idiotic behavior, but that doesn't mean I thought it was appropriate.
Yes, I'm old school. Bo's players would have known that behavior would send them deep into the doghouse for an extended period of time, because it disgraced the team.
Would yelling "Fuck You!!" have yielded a suspension?
Don't really agree with the article that much. That behavior can be handled internally if they choose. If you (OSU) want to tell the world that you have no sportsmanship or class and that you are disappointed, fine. ( I would give him something extra)
What he should be suspended for is coming off the bench to join the fight. That deserves extra punishment that should come from the NCAA, B10, and OSU. The full punches from Wilson? Maybe those too. Shoves in the face or pulling and pushing on people is normal 15 yard penalties up to ejections. Escalating scuffles with full punches or joining from the bench deserve severe punishment IMHO.
I am old school... Throwing punches.. Yanking off helmets....grabbing face asks and especially flipping the bird should be a cause for punishment. Lewan should have been suspended. A senior captain acting that way... Really. Very selfish. Thought hoke preached "the team.. The team.. The team". The OSU dude looked ridiculous. Selfish act while he is representing ohio. No class. Suspend him. If jake Ryan .. Denard Robinson or Desmond Howard did this I would expect them to sit the next game. Don't embarrass the university or the program for your selfish actions. They should learn that in junior high.
"especially flipping the bird"? Really? That was the worst thing for you?