December 3rd, 2013 at 4:39 PM ^
Hoke no longer allows kids to do engineering and be on the football team. It is now program policy. Apparently you were not aware of this. You must have missed the entire Hand episode.
Also, please tell me what the major is for the overwhelming majority of football players. Thanks.
This isn't meant to be a criticism of U of M specifically, but rather major college sports as a whole.
Jim Harbaugh might have been a dick about what he said, but he wasn't wrong.
Michigan shuffles these kids into bunk majors, many times against their will, just like almost every other school with a big time athletic program.
I know for a fact that certain guys wanted to do other things but were essentially forced into general studies because "We think that's what is best for you."
The free education argument is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
There was a time when they were students who were compensated for being an athlete.
That is no more.
They are now athletes who are compensated for the inconvenience of being a student.
December 3rd, 2013 at 5:00 PM ^
Here is how you deal with the Hand scenario; you tell him he can major in engineering. He comes in freshman year in the engineering program and takes ENG 100, Math 115, Chem 116, and an elective. If he can play football and do well in those classes then perhaps he can stay in engineering. If he does poorly you say to him that in order to stay eligible he should consider switching majors. Nobody wins if an athlete is academically ineligble and on full scholarship.
$220K free out of state tution, room and board, books and fees is not bull shit.
December 3rd, 2013 at 5:04 PM ^
You seem to be missing the point. Yes, they are pushed in certain directions. I know that happens at Michigan all the time, even in non revenue sports. They don't take your scholarship away if you fail to comply, though. You get benched. Again, it's a trade off. They want to play though, so they decide it's in their best interest to take the easier major. Who cares if you disagree with them on that point?
December 3rd, 2013 at 6:24 PM ^
I guess I did miss that Hoke has a policy against football players majoring in engineering. Does somebody have a link that substantiates this, or did I miss the sarcasm?
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:11 PM ^
Patrick Omameh majored in engineering, so there is no hard-and-fast rule that you can't do it. Da'Shawn Hand, though, sure seems to have been steered away from engineering. This, combined with people saying that they've known U of M players to be steered into easier majors, leads people (I think I'm right about this) to believe that Michigan attempts as an institution to get guys to pick comparatively easy majors but at the same time does't flat-out bar them from choosing harder majors.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:17 PM ^
Agreed with everything you said.
I'm not in favor of the University paying kids directly but if Addidas or Wheaties or whatever wants to pay Denard to smile in front of a camera who cares? Opponents will respond with the free education agrument, playing for the team, etc. all the meanwhile buying up Addidas and Nike gear, watching the TOSTITOS Fiesta Bowl, etc. It doesn't fit into their narrative of college athletics even though that narrative has not existed since the 1950s.
Let the market dictate their worth. If the market thinks Denard is worth more than his scholarship, so be it. If it doesn't, so be it.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:55 PM ^
that a post football year of additional tuition (to pursue the degree or classes that were too challenging while playing) and health insurance for football related injuries / diasbilities would be what most players would like to see.
I could see that and the stipend as well. I also think the health insurance part should include assistance taking the muscle and weight back off in a healthy way.
On the other hand most of these guys do not go on to the NFL, and their prime opportunity for endorsement income, ect. is while they are playing in college. Much like Olympic atheletes - as long as it is above board and reported - I don't have a problem with them making money on their fame. (This especially over paying Al Borges more than his results are worth, not to mention paying for skywriting and additional "marketing" staff.)
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:26 PM ^
Just because there are lots of problems doesn't mean this isn't a problem. Should every journalist write every article about concussions until the problem is fixed?
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:31 PM ^
...they should focus on the things I listed or other big issues. This just wasn't worth writing about, IMO. I reminds me of the "news" about George H.W. Bush (no endorsement implied or not implied) not liking broccoli. The man was the president of the United States, and that's what people were writing about?!
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:41 PM ^
I think it's notable when athletes (who are role models) aren't held accountable by their coaches (who are leaders of young men) or their governing institutions.
John Feinstein isn't going to solve world hunger. He writes about sports. This is a sports story. I'm not his biggest fan, but for all I know, he's already written about concussions, amateur athletes being used by schools, etc.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:49 PM ^
I'm good with Hall running stairs until he pukes, but I see the argument for making him sit out part of a game...My problem with Feinstein is that he calls Meyer "despicable" and "everything that is wrong with college sports." I wouldn't buy the "I'm just a sports writer" defense from Feinstein when he's essentially saying Meyer is a bad person. That's saying a hell of a lot more than "Meyer is making a mistake by not sitting Hall."
December 3rd, 2013 at 3:59 PM ^
Meyer is a slimeball. Just so there's no confusion.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:50 PM ^
WHY DOES JOHN FEINSTEIN LIKE WORLD HUNGER???
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:01 PM ^
article would be about why athletes would be seen as role models. The money they make? The work they put in to make that money? Are actors role models? Why exactly would you tell your kid that athletes should be viewed at all as role models? I mean are there athletes who would make good role models? Sure, but they are not really role models because they are athletes.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:20 PM ^
I didn't say they're good role models. But whether we like it or not, they ARE role models. Kids look up to them and try to emulate them. Parents name their kids after athletes. It's no coincidence that a bunch of kids born in the beginning of the 1990's are now popping up in college sports named "Shaquille."
December 3rd, 2013 at 3:25 PM ^
Perhaps b/c they are on TV and literally hundreds of thousands of people cheer them on, often wearing their jerseys to identify with them? That people name their kids after them and arraneg their entire weekends around their activities?
No on has to "tell" kids anything; they see how people react and fawn over athletes. It's up to parents to do their best and inform kids that behavior like Hall's is poor sportsmanship and is being a poor teammate, but you can't be around them all the time.
December 3rd, 2013 at 4:27 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 4:40 PM ^
Let me know if you find a good way to legislate proper parenting...
December 3rd, 2013 at 5:53 PM ^
Not sure if you have kids, but they don't listen to everything you say, even if you personally model the behavior and say it multiple times. Shocking, I know.
So a little help from the culture at large, and 'leaders of young men' like Urban Meyer, would be nice. You know, since these are "student-atheletes" representing the university, and all.
EDIT: Meant to be a response to goblue2011
December 3rd, 2013 at 3:00 PM ^
I guess a degree from the University of Michigan don't mean dick these days. Hardly any better than a certificate from WCC, right?
December 3rd, 2013 at 3:18 PM ^
I'm not saying he received nothing...We would all likely agree that Miguel Cabrera was underpaid if he made $1 million per year despite the fact that, for most people, that's a hell of a lot of money...All of that said, I do have to wonder how much a general studies degree is worth. It bothers me that Hand, for example, wasn't given a crack at engineering at Michigan.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:13 PM ^
tried to stop Hall....or congratulate him?
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:14 PM ^
Tried to drag his arms down. Eventually trapped them in a bear hug going up the tunnel.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:17 PM ^
From everything I've heard/read about Guiton, he's a pretty good guy. I imagine he was trying to get Hall to put his arms down.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:17 PM ^
Guiton was named one of the team captains this year. He has the talent to start at most major college programs, but has been steadfast in staying with OSU. From the sounds of it, he's a pretty levelheaded kid.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:21 PM ^
Exactly right. And for those that think if Miller leaves OSU is going to take a big step backward I invite them to watch the Cal-OSU game or any of the others where he got significant playing time.
That dude is good. VERY good.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:23 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:24 PM ^
(Guiton is a senior)
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:24 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:25 PM ^
That wouldn't do us any good, since Guiton is a senior.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:34 PM ^
My bad. I thought he had a year left.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:44 PM ^
Nope. He's a senior.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:48 PM ^
are certainly not the only one.
Wow. I am surprised he did not go elsewhere to seek consistent playing time. Likely still a pro prospect but it would seem that he would have sought out a place where he could have contributed regularly.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:38 PM ^
Also, when trying to gauge an offensive player's competence and abilities, the very very last place you should look is their performance against Cal. Cal makes everyone look good.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:25 PM ^
Guiton is a senior.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:28 PM ^
how many years of eligibility Guiton has left?
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:35 PM ^
Guiton is a senior.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:56 PM ^
Just ballparkin'.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:22 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:26 PM ^
--let alone the B12 championship--it would be difficult to convince me that there are any/many coaches who would do differently. Thinking that Brady would do differently would be mere self-satisfying speculation. And if he did, there would likely be a firestorm here--by many, not necessarily all.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:37 PM ^
Geez, third commentor on the article gives a pretty one sided analysis of how he saw it go down.
#23 Dennis Norfleet horse-collars Dontre Wilson, then #86 Jehu Chesson cheap shots him. 7 Wolverines then jump in gang style. #22 Jarrod Wilson actually throws the first blow with an elbow to Wilson's head. #52 Royce Jenkins Stone rips Wilson's helmet off. #44 Delano Hill actually head butts a helmet-less Wilson with his helmet while choking him with his right arm, which prompts Wilson's punch. BTW Hill punches Wilson back and never gets ejected.
I saw it a bit differently but to each his own. I think by "blow" he means shoving. I watched it a few times and only saw the punches thrown and thought the refs did a very good job. Hill was certainly agressive but did not throw a punch. RJS deserved what he got for the helmet pull. Can't wait to beat these fools next year.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:37 PM ^
and I'm honestly okay with Hall not getting suspended, BUT...the issue should have been addressed. This isn't good sportsmanship and as much as I hate osu and Urbz and would love for them to get raked over the coals of public opinion, this isn't the way Hall should represent their university or the B1G. If suspension isn't the punishment, tell us what he will get instead. Community service, 100 laps around the shoe...SOMETHING. It should be addressed by the coach or the university and some punishment given.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:03 PM ^
would stick in his craw enough.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:38 PM ^
the force with which Hall dealt out that double bird. If you watch closely, once the decision was made that they were going up the move was very decisive, it was really a full body action as opposed to just the arms. It was actually very well executed.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:49 PM ^
Did anyone REALLY expect Meyer to do anything? Really?
I can't imagine what an OSU player would have to do to actually get suspended from the Big Ten title game. Probably go up into the stands and punch a kid. And even then Urban would probably try to only suspend him for the 1st quarter.
Win At All Costs.
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:08 PM ^
YEAH TOTALLY!!!!! MORAL SUPERIORITY FOR THE WIN, AMIRITE?!?!!?
Except that Hoke isn't suspending Jenkins-Stone for the bowl game for his efforts in that fight. Nor anyone else's unsportsmanlike participation (Jake Ryan comes to mind). And when it comes to "flipping the bird" he never suspended Taylor Lewan when he did it. But sure, rabble rabble.
Also, with respect to the "Urbz gonna Urbz" meme regarding player discipline, I won't defend his history in Florida. But I will note that this year he suspended Carlos Hyde 3 games for an incident in which all the charges were dropped and Roby for one game for an incident in which, again, no charges were filed.
Compare that to, say, Brady Hoke who only suspended Frank Clark (charged with second degree home invasion) for one game and Fitz Toussaint (charged with a DWI) for one game. Or to Jimbo Fisher who will absolutely not suspend Jameis Winston even though his accuser has alleged that he raped her and the DNA matches.
Ahhh, screw it. Logic be damned. URBZ GONNA URBZ!
December 3rd, 2013 at 2:40 PM ^
+1.
Also, Hoke didn't suspend Lewan this year for his antics in the MSU game. I guess he must want to win at all costs too?
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:49 PM ^
two years ago some on this board screamed bloody murder of Gholsten not being suspended by Michigan State.
One year latter Lewan does basically the same damn thing and doesn't get suspended and we hear pretty much crickets.
God forbid a Michigan player ever does what Hall did in the future.
also, I wasn't proud of the way Jake Ryan behaved on that play, along with a couple other Michigan players. They basically went right over in front of the ohio bench and chirped away. Things could have gotten much worse.
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:52 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 1:54 PM ^
most definitely not apologizing