I want to know who is telling these kids to leave and go pro? Obviously another year of school for both these kids would have dramatically improved there draft stock. Just doesnt make sense...you think there would be someone in the university to tell these kids the truth or mentor them or something. i dont know...thoughts?
UNDRAFTED - Manny + Warren
You mean the ones in The Matrix?
that it's "obvious that their draft stock would've improved dramatically" if they stayed. Manny's projected draft slot has been getting worse every year. If anything he should've gone after his freshman season. There is VERY little to suggest his stock would've improved, let alone dramatically. NBA teams draft on current production or future projection (do you have it now, or can you have it in the future?), and his production simply wasn't up to NBA level and his projection was drying up.
At a certain point you are what you are. He's a phenomenal basketball player. Unfortunately sometimes that's not quite good enough for the NBA, but its certainly good enough for every other league in the world, so best of luck to him.
Keep your pockets straight Manny
Interaction issues with teammates and coaches tend to lead to reduced draft stock - pro teams don't always want the best player, they want the good-to-great player that will get along and coexist well with the rest of the team. If a player has a history of prima donna tendencies that comes out when they speak to the coaches, they are less likely to draft them.
Eh, they both took chances and they have not paid off so far, but I'm sure they considered this potential outcome beforehand. At some point, Manny and Warren figured it was in their best interests to take a shot at the pros, and I cannot fault them for it. With Manny, you kind of knew he was going to have a hard time getting drafted. With Warren, though, most people were shocked to see him not be taken. Even with his bad combine numbers, 3rd round seemed to be the baement for him. I feel worse for him, because going undrafted was largely unexpected for Warren; for Manny, quite a few pundits argued he should have stayed.
Still, wish them both the best of luck. Good players have gone undrafted and still made the league. Hopefully this will slight will galvanize them.
But if someone is telling you $millions are coming it is hard to ignore. I listened to a lot of it and barely heard Manny mentioned. Have to think he would have had a much better shot with another year in Beilein's system but we will never know.
I think Manny saw this as a distinct possibility but didn't care and left anyway. He just wanted somebody to pay him to play basketball wherever that might be and wanted out of U-M (which I know is hard to understand since so many of us would probably give up a ton to go back and be Michigan students again).
Warren looked like a middle round pick at worst based on a number of people's projections. I don't think he wanted to be in college any more either if given the option and decided to take the money. A slow 40 at the combine and a little more scrutiny showed what a fine line there is between Round 3 and not drafted at all.
Warren definitely got blindsided. You can still argue whether he should have declared when he was proejcted to be a 3rd-5th rd pick (instead of trying for something better), but him not being drafted was a definite surprise.
Manny was just ready to go. I personally think it was a poor decision, but it just seems like he was done with college basketball and was ready to start playing ball for moeny - even though that was likely to be in Europe/Asia. This story that was in yesterday's AnnArbor.com showed he had his eyes wide-open.
Too bad for Michigan's b-ball team, and too bad for him. You can only have one senior year, and it's gone. May he lead the Bundesliga in scoring.
Manny had to go, the team wasn't going to help his draft status. As someone above stated, his draft status seemed to slip already year to year in college.Too bad for fans and the team, and for Manny himself going undrafted. The undrafted thing doesn't surprise me, he wasn't as consistant as I would have wished and I don't think he was a good defender by any means. He had good offensive skills, but his talent wasn't going to blow anyone away. Best hope is that he develops more (big ?), and maybe catches on with an NBA team a few years down the road, taking a final roster spot.
He didn't have to go. First, team success has little to do with draft position, but anyway, had he stayed, our overall talent level next year might well have been better than this year (at the least, we are going to have more size up front). If Manny could have developed a midrange game and become a more disciplined defender, his stock would have gone up, regardless of what our record would have been. He just wanted out.
It's a great year to be a minimum free agent. Teams have cleared roster space, and will need to fill them out. And those that land big contract free agents aren't going to have a lot of money to pay surrounding players. And more established free agents that aren't great aren't going to want to take the pay cut and take peanuts, so that leaves a lot of room for rookie free agents.
It is true there are a number of teams clearing cap space, but for those teams who end up at the end of the LeBron/Wade/Bosh/etc musical chairs w/o a partner, it's real unlikely rookie free agents will fill the remaining spots. Manny not only has to beat out current NBA players and drafted rookies, but also almost 200 players in the D-League (plus foreign league players). All those D-Leagues guys come cheap, and NBA GMs will have more comfort with players already in their "farm" system.
If you look at NBA rosters, each team usually has 1-3 players who were undrafted. Their resumes show they are far more likely to have spent significant time in the D-League and/or overseas, than they are to have signed with an NBA team and stick right away.
There are exceptions (e.g., Marquis Daniels), but it's basically very few guys.
Manny will play somewhere this year, but I would be shocked if it's in the NBA and not for something like the Fort Wayne Mad Ants or Maccabi Tel Aviv. Hopefully, he'll be able to build an NBA career in a year or two from there.
It wasn't that he was a lock to make an NBA squad. It's just that this year, with there being a likelihood of a number of players earning the bare minimum to fill roster spots, his chances increase. Because he's still competing against all the guys you mention in a normal year. But then he's also competing with guys earning more than the minimum, but less than the midlevel exception, usual veterans who are more valuable to a team, and thus more desirable, but also are established enough that they're not really looking to take a pay cut just to make a roster on a squad that has a chance to win, because they haven't earned enough to be able to do that. Now, in the present scenario, some may realize there's going to be a number of spot squeeze, and take the less money rather than going to Europe or such. But it's still about getting paid, and if a journeyman can make more overseas, he'll do that rather than just be the 12th guy on the new Heat who are giving all their money to 4 players. So, while maybe not becoming likely, it's cut down his pool of competition significantly, this year only.
he only managed 12 reps on the bench. The Space Emperor did 16 and they had to wonder about DW's work ethic.
He actually stayed because he had a wrist injury and couldn't work out for pro teams. SC sort of made up the whole "I love college!" storyline to cover for it. That being said, he had a pretty awesome last semester, taking nothing but one class in ballroom dancing and using his spare time to impregnate volleyball players.
in basketball, unlike american football, there's good money to be made outside of the NBA/NFL. you just have to be willing to let circumstances dictate where you live. it'll be interesting to see where manny goes from here. if he's up for it, he'll be fine (financially) playing overseas somewhere. it's just too bad that he'd have to be so far from his family and his (presumed) dream to play in the NBA. anyway, i wish him the best of luck.
There are certainly more opportunities to make money overseas in basketball than football. However, most overseas leagues don't pay well. There are just a handful of leagues in Europe that do, and competition for roster spots is nearly as fierce as it is for NBA ones. Manny can have a long career abroad, but if he wants to cash in he's got to develop his game further. European coaches have less patience for guys with raw skills than their American counterparts.
Manny Harris made the right decision.
What could Manny have gained by staying? Really? He would be playing with teammates far below his skill level. He'd have nobody in practice to compete with. Beilein doesn't have a record of creating NBA talent, so there's not that to rely on. He spent this last year as an upperclassman leader, he's not going to gain much by doing it again with less talent around him. Plus, there's the possibility of injury.
By going pro now, Manny is putting himself in a position to grow as a player that he would not have had in Ann Arbor, unfortunately. He will be with coaches that will be working him into NBA shape. He will be playing with, competing with, and practicing with players at or above his skill and athletic levels. And he will do all this while getting paid.
Whether its the NBA, NBDL, or in Europe, good luck to Manny (and Peedi!). I think you made a difficult but ultimately sound career choice.
I might disagree that if he came back there would be "less talent around him." I actually think there would be more talent around him.
You forgot to put ~sarcasm at the end of your post.
Unless of course you meant to bash the coach, every player on the team and say that's it's a good decision for all NCAA players to quit school as soon as they are good enough to make money overseas.
Yes, that's exactly it: it's a good decision for all NCAA players to quit school as soon as they are good enough to make money, be it in the NBA or overseas. Considering how insane the NBA has become with throwing money at anyone with "potential," and the fact that, at 21, Harris is considered an "old man" by NBA teams, he probably should have entered the draft sooner.
Hmmm... Michigan State's players are all probably good enough to play in Europe next year so you are saying the entire team should have declared? That's an interesting viewpoint.
Yes but Manny wasn't good enough to make money in the NBA or overseas so the point is kind of moot. He was good enough to POSSIBLY make money in the NBA or overseas. At this point, he doesn't have a degree and doesn't have have a team and doesn't have any money. I think he will pick up somewhere and play in the D-League this year, but personally, I would have liked to see him get his degree and head to Europe or the D-League next year.
How can you say he made the right decision? Right now he has nowhere to go. You guys are seriously overestimating the playing opportunities that exist overseas. It's not like they hand out six-figure contracts like candy. You've still got to be really, really good to pull good money overseas. In virtually every league, the number of roster spots allowed to foreigners is restricted, and contracts usually aren't guaranteed. Foreign coaches want to win just as badly as coaches here. They won't babysit a raw talent. NCAA basketball is a much lower-pressure environment than Europe. A European team is not going to hold Manny's hand while he learns to use his left hand. If he can't hack it, they'll cut him loose.
A European team is not going to hold Manny's hand while he learns to use his left hand. If he can't hack it, they'll cut him loose.
Well sure - it's professional basketball. I just guess I don't understand how the alternative is a better option - to stay with a coach he seems to conflict with, players he got into a fight with, and a system in which he regressed for free, or to change scenery and make some money?
It's a much lower-pressure environment in which to develop his skills. And really, if he can't coexist with an U.S. college coach and teammates his own age, good luck dealing with a European coach and teammates far older than him, many of whom may not even speak English.
But it's an evironment in which he's failed to devlop his skills for 3 years.
That's a little harsh. He has improved his ballhandling and shooting - maybe not the degree we were hoping for, but they are better. He was an absolute turnover machine as a freshman and had an even uglier stroke than he does now. I think a year from now he'll regret not staying that final year. We'll see.
How can you say he made the right decision? Right now he has nowhere to go.
For the sake of argument, let's say Manny ends up in the NBDL.
My first post provides one main reason why I think he should go: the talent he would be working with here is far inferior to the talent he will be working with wherever he ends up. This should be undisputable. It's not a knock on Stu Douglass and Zack Novak and Metrics - it's an assessment that he'd be working with players that are currently NBA fringe players.
What skills can Manny develop at UM in the next year that he couldn't develop in the NBDL? Everyone says that Manny needs to develop a jump shot. Why can't he do that in the NBDL? Wouldn't he be better served to work on his shooting and other skills 10 hours a day instead of the NCAA-mandated limited time that he'd be allowed to work on it in Ann Arbor?
Financially, in the NBDL Manny would make $35,000. If he gets called up, the minimum 10 day contract in the NBA is $35,000. He would be making decent money doing what he wants to do in life (isn't that the goal of getting a degree) and he would be developing his profession at a rate faster than he would be able to by staying in school.
NBDL salaries aren't that high. According to this source, they actually ranged from $12,000 to $24,000 in 2009-10:
So he'd be making pretty lousy money, have to live in the middle of nowhere, and face greater pressure to perform than he would in college. (Scouts don't look kindly on a guy who can't get off an NBDL bench.) And playing with more talent around him is not necessarily a positive thing. At U-M he was virtually guaranteed a starting spot. In the NBDL he'd have to fight for playing time. Is that really preferable to a final year (which he can never get back) of playing college ball and being BMOC in Ann Arbor?
Do you know another salary that's not high? NCAA's college player.
Essentially, this breaks down to this: if you believe that Harris, by leaving Michigan, is damaging his future development, this is a bad decision.
I happen to think that if Harris is good enough to be in the NBA, he'll get there. If not, he'll get to Europe. If he's not good enough to be there, he'll have to do something outside sports. I don't think his one missed year will hamstring his future - so, he may as well make a few bucks.
I've read they can be as high as $40,000.
This second link says average is 35K. First link says as much as 40K.
I don't see how playing with more talent around you is anything but positive. Ask just about any coach in the world. The more talent you have around you, the better you get during practice. Playing time or a starting spot does not equate to a faster progression. Plus I think the amount of time Manny would be able to spend in the gym and in the weight room is a major benefit that would cancel out any possible benefit from starting games in Ann Arbor.
It's not an exact science and for a while I was of the opinion that Manny should stay. However, the more I thought about these things from a career-development viewpoint (and not an "OMG I want Manny to stay" view, my original view), I decided it might be best for him to move on. There's no telling for sure. However, when you factor in the problems Manny was having in house, it probably was the better decision.
What could Manny have gained by staying?
A degree from the University of Michigan
What could Manny have gained by staying?
A degree from the University of Michigan
What can Manny gain after his very limited window of playing days are over and he goes back to school?
A degree from the University of Michigan.
I am willing to wager you a large sum of money that Manny will not be returning for his degree.
You completely missed the point. Manny has a limited amount of time to make money by playing basketball. If you think that he can't improve his draft status by staying, then financially he is better off earning the 35K he'll make this upcoming year in the NBDL (could grow exponentially if called up).
After his playing days are over, he has the ability to go back and get the degree. He will not have the ability to re-live the first year of his professional career and make that money back.
If you told a UM junior that he could put off his graduation for a minimum of 35K a year - doing what you want - with the possibility of doubling or tripling that in less that one year, I think most would take you up on that offer.
Manny has been Academic All-Big 10 every single semester he's been at Michigan - school is clearly important to him. I will bet that you're completely fucking wrong.
Even if you were right - if he values a degree little enough to not come back and get it, what makes you think that he'd place any value to STAY and get it?
... but he graduated. hopefully him and manny get a shot some time down the road
the OP's post reeks of arrogance and idiocy.
WHOZ TELLING THESE KIDZ TO LEAVE MY TEAMS AHAHDFGHG WHAT I WANT MATTERS NOT WHAT THEY WANT
i was torn on this whole thing but tom from AA made a great point. You have to let go of your love/hope for success for michigan sports and realize that Manny has a better opportunity to get better as a pro, playing against better players every day than he does playing at UM. He can always go back to school
i believe manny said that it felt like he had been in ann arbor more than 3 years because he was carrying so much of the team's weight all 3 years, that along with the fact that he'd probably developed about as much as he can at M means he probably did the right thing for himself
It might not be a surprise, but it still is sad. Manny was one of the top point guards in the B10.
He's not a point guard dude.....
... whatever. There was a point when Turner was out when he was the top scorer in the league. And I think he ended up at number 3 or 4, that was my point. And no, he is not Kobe, but it is a shock that someone with his talent cannot get drafted. I know he is not a point guard.
I know he is not a point guard.
No, you clearly don't.
Think of the time when you were about to finish your degree - how excited were you for your first job - the chance to finally make some money - and how you couldn't wait another day to move from being a penniless student to a well to do professional. Now, imagine that you have tonnes and tonnes of talent and you are being asked to go through a grinder of a work schedule so that other people make money off you while you continue to be a penniless amateur student athelete - wouldn't you want to just have it finished so that you can finally get some monetary returns from your talent.
I think this is the big problem with the whole NCAA Student Athelete system. Coaches make multi-millions a year, University makes hundreds of millions; Game Companies, Sponsors, Apparel Companies makes billions - all based on the talent and hard work of people like Manny and Warren - and what do they get - the pride and glory for sure, an excellent education of course - but I am sure it is often not enough against the more immediate need of improving the financial state of your family by getting some valuation for your talent before it is too late and the vagaries of injuries, competition from other elite talent or just pure luck takes it all away from you.
I think NCAA needs to think about allowing the schools to give the students on the roster a living allowance - does not have to be too much - say $50K - 70K per year so that they don't have to run out of school because the family roof is leaking and they need a couple of thousands to fix it.
$50-$70K? Seriously? That's an absurdly high number. I know it's not a lot compared to the money the school is taking in, but c'mon.
Why stop at $50-70K? Start them at $500k so they can work on managing a shit load of money.
Seriously, they go to school for free. They get to showcase their skills in front of millions of people watching on tv. And if they're really good, they get to make more money than we could ever imagine at the next level. Otherwise, they're debt free coming out of an elite university. That's more than enough!
I admit that up front, but the sheer stupdity of the suggestion demands mockery. If you have 85 scholarship football players and 13 b-ball players, the bottom end of your range is $4.9M. Don't forget Title IX - you must spend a similar amount on women's programs. So let's call it a nice, round $10M. There are only a handful of athletic programs that run any kind of surplus right now, a $10M hit takes most Division 1 programs out of the game. Congratulations, you've destroyed college athletics to benefit the select few who will actually be able to earn a living on their sports ability after college.
Okay - I agree that the amount does not make sense from the scale and Title IX point of view - but still - I would say that the idea of student atheletes making zilch while everybidy else raking it in is absurd.
Think of it from the perspective of a truly elite talent - if a degree is really that valuable then you would not see such abysmal graduation rates as you see in college football/bball. Elite talent comes to college sports because that is the *only* way to get into the pro sports. They deserve compensation - at least at the minimum level at which they can provide a basic living to their families - then there won't be the huge pressure on them to jump ship at the first available opportunity.
NCAA can set limits so that it does not become a bidding contest - but come on - think of someone who has to rise out of penury based on his/her physical skills? and if you were one of them - wouldn't you take the first cash offer that comes your way rather than gamble with injury/competition/luck - and wouldn't you just hate the system that makes so much money off you and gives you not a penny. Wouldn't you call it unfair?
They don't deserve a fucking dime while in college. I had to work hard. My family had to work hard so we can afford my Michigan education. The "truly elite talent" get a free education, free food and priceless exposure.
If they need money so badly, the b-ball players can play in Europe (see: Brandon Jennings) and the football players can suck it up for two years.
There's no fine line with elite talent and non-elite talent. What's the difference? Walk on versus scholarship? That's horribly unfair.
They get scholarships, instead of working at a job to pay for college, they work out to keep their scholarship.
I'm not saying this isn't an issue but consider this. How about the thousands of students whose families are similarly stretched for resources, work extremely hard in school, and do not have full rides? They have all the same issues but come out of college burdened with substantial debt. Let's try and keep some things in perspective - the athletic scholarship carries a lot of value, especially at a school like Michigan.
Manny really needs his outside shot to fall. He isn't big enough to play the three in the NBA, so he needs to shoot well enough to play the two in the NBA. Beilein's system is great for a player who needs to develop his outside shooting. Remember that the main criticism during Belein's first year was that players "did nothing but jack up a lot of threes.:
I would have preferred for Manny to stay, get a degree, and clean up his outside shot a little bit. It would have been nice to see him end his career at Michigan on a positive note. Now that he is gone, I wish him well. I am thinking Europe or Israel will be his eventual destination.
No matter what one may think of Manny's decision, though, Michigan fans owe him a debt of gratitude for being a high-profile recruit who said no to the "other school" and helped Michigan claw its way back into a better part of the food chain, both on the court and in recruiting. Hopefully, somewhere down the road, Manny will be seen as the first block of a successful, though long, rebuilding process.
I'd quibble as well with the notion that Harris is making a bad decision or that he was misled or given bad advice. Everybody knows he needs further development - now he gets to do that while getting paid a few hundred thousand dollars a year. Not a bad deal, right?
People act like playing overseas is some sort of purgatory-like sentence. My cousin played four years and Villanova, was a 2nd-team all conference performer, but had no shot at the NBA. He went and played in China for 9 years, they paid him a few hundred grand a year and paid to house and feed him while there - he retired after 9 years with enough money to buy three successful restaurants.
it's a good gig for Manny provided he's intelligent (which he demonstrably is), regardless of whether he makes the NBA.
probably learned some Chinese, as well. Not a bad post-grad (and paid-for) education.
the question manny needed to answer (and i don't know the answer) is if by staying in school and improving his draft stock, he could have made more money the following year such that he would have made more money in one year having stayed, than in two years having left. my guess is that he would have made more money had he stayed, but i don't have a lot of evidence to back that up.