Oh boy, was this necessary?
I still love that picture of brutus getting punched. Sorry I didn't even read your post.
just stop with the whole "is this post necessary" crap. If it is not the mods will take care of it. Just sit back and enjoy the site. If you don't like the post move on to another one.
I logged in just to show my support for you and your comment. I'm so damn sick of the "is this post necessary" crowd!
Really? Crazy ranting with lots of caps is necessary? Read the rest of the responses.
First, I made an observation about the respective prevalence of Joy Division posts versus the "UNACCEPTABLE" posts that they're ostensibly attacking. How is that "crazy ranting" - just because you don't agree?
Second, how in God's name did I use "lots of caps"? I capped one word -- "UNACCEPTABLE" -- because that's how it frequently appears on the boards.
Seriously, knock it off with the "is this necessary" crapola.
was making this comment necessary?
They might not have used the word "unacceptable," but we knew what they meant. We knew.
I think all the "UNACCEPTABLE!" posters pretty much know that phrase results in an autonegging, so they are posting pretty much everything except that specfic word. Their posts can still be summed up as "UNACCEPTABLE!"
It seems that "UNACCEPTABLE!" has become a short-hand reference to anyone who says something like "This shouldn't be happening b/c this is Michigan'" w/out going into any further depth than that.
As for positivity Nazis, the reference made by OP, we prefer to be called the Joy Division.
1 - Many Positivity Nazis / Joy Division members seem to unfairly characterize any critical post as an "UNACCEPTABLE!" post, even if it can't be summed up as "We're Michigan, we deserve instant success!"
2- However you want to characterize it, the number of "Shut up Rich Rod haters!" posts now significantly outnumber the "UNACCEPTABLE!" posts.
3- I agree that the threat of autonegging has prompted critical posters to go out of their way to try to offer some semblance of analysis, avoid verboten phrases. The problem is, the "Shut up Rich Rod haters" posters don't face that same threat, so they have no motive to try to offer reasoned analysis. Instead, many of them just bitch and rant.
The purpose of my post isn't to attack defenders of Rodriguez or those optimistic about the program (I'm one of you, albeit with concerns that I hope will be alleviated in coming weeks). As a voracious consumer of this board, I'm getting annoyed by the lowering of the level of discourse, and from what I've seen alot of that devolution is not coming from the anti-Rodriguez forces.
I think what you're seeing on the MGoBoard this year is more realism. Finally, after two years, people have realized that spazzing out and calling for Rodriguez's head and spouting off about how "this is not Michigan football" and "this is unacceptable" is a waste of time. Its not productive, and its downright annoying. People are over the shock of the past 2 years and are now more realistic about Michigan football: Its a new regime with a completely new way of playing the game and people finally understand that (a) it takes time to install the system, and (b) the system works with the right kids. Also, I think people are more cognizant this year that an end result of 7-5 (maybe even 8-4??) is still very possible and would still be a great outcome. I think that's why the "Unacceptable" crowd is being overpowered by the Joy Division.
I love these kinds of threads. Like a train wreck, they are hard not to pay close attention to them.
Cannon ball wreck? Did a cannon ball hit the train?
Haters gonna hate?
it on the head...WITH THE BAN HAMMER!!!
Actually, that's what I would of wrote about, the 'Ban Hammer'; how its being bandied about like there's 20 or so Thors out there. Folks just have a short fuse these days; pop a Xany and forget about it, that's my mantra! But that's just me...
no established users have been banned (afaik) in the past 2-3 weeks. the MSU fans with email addresses ending in albion.edu, etc., have been getting the special treatment but nobody has been knocked around, except for some -10k's for "OMG I H8S THA LOZING" that went out on Saturday... and Heir General delivered those blows
Is a complete moron, and is not at all an accurate representation of my alma mater.
I am a current student at albion and there are only a few annoying state fans here. The rest are quiet.
rather, i was trying to identify the irony of...
a) members of a fan base who consistently mock the tenants of "Walmart Wolverines"
b) individuals who do not go to UM posing as UM students and make 'meltdown posts' for the RCMB to lol at.
i'm not even exaggerating: there is a 2:1 ratio of fake meltdown posts to real meltdown posts. MSU fans are getting to a point of obsession that they will create nonsense in order to have "proof" that UM fans are OMGZ UPSET!
is very true!
Who cares if all the fans are crying thinking they could coach a team better.. All their bitching isn't gonna affect the team regardless
I find the original post unacceptable.
any recent posts where people have broken out "UNACCEPTABLE." This goes back to 2008, 2009, and even before, when (especially on newspaper and MLive comment sections) people would rant and rave about Lloyd's conservative playcalling or RichRod's "square-peg-round-hole" offense, etc. " UNACCEPTABLE" has basically become a catch-all term for the persistently negative fans who think that because we are Michigan, we should automatically be superior to all other teams, and that we are somehow entitled to on-field success.
we aren't entitled to anything, but bc we have the resources here that almost every other school can't offer, we SHOULD expect more than what we have had. Isn't that a fair reason for people to cry unacceptable, whether it is LC and his conservative offense or lax off season training regimine, or RR and his ability to repel defensive players and attract poor tackling?
"... we have the resources here that almost every other school can't offer ..."
Sure about that, Homes? I'd suggest taking a look at the salaries for SEC football staffs. It's an arms race of the highest order.
- - -
You're not necessarily one of these types, but there are some Michigan fans who truly believe that Meyer/Stoops/whoever would drop everything and come to Michigan if we bothered to call them. Delusional.
Sure, we don't offer more, but we could. We have the academics, which if you ask any Michigan fan, they would spout off about how the SEC has none. In reality, only vandy and UF can be mentioned in the same breath as the academic bottom feeders of the big 10. Most alumni, largest stadium, amazing college town, new football facilities, tradition, etc.
Now homes, is there anything else you want to add to your argument?
but there are also a lot of things working against us, particularly because the most and best recruits come from the South or the West: winter, distance from home, winter, lack of SEC-like enthusiasm, winter, perception of the B10 as slow and not dynamic or exciting, winter, higher NCAA/local media scrutiny due to the basketball team and now the football team indiscretions, which makes it harder to bend the rules (and bending, if not breaking rules is part and parcel of success in major college athletics). And of course, winter.
Plus, the strength of Michigan's academics, while great for the school as a whole, is not really a universal positive (or even factor) for football recruits. For some it matters, for some (most?) it doesn't.
There are reasons why we can expect to be a good program (much better than what's been going on lately), but you have to recognize the significant impediments as the talent pool has increasingly been focused in the South and California.
I mean you really could list all the same positive Michigan attributes for UCLA, minus a bit of the tradition, but plus the weather/beach/girls. They're not getting their pick of corches.
but schools with those same negatives do better with what they have...Wisconsin, Iowa, Boise State, MSU., etc. These teams recruit the midwest and are either colder or on par with what we deal with. MSU is competing for the top of the Big10 this season off of Michigan talent leftovers from Ohio. There is plenty of talent laden regions around us in which to recruit.
Overall, I don't buy that weather is a big detractor and that we can't compete with the SEC with the resources we have. OSU does fine and is just outside the snowbelt. All these examples of programs from cold-weather climates and have less to significantly less resources then we do (except obviously OSU).
We should be able to compete every year for a top 15 position nationally and for the Big ten title with the occasional National Championship run. To make excuses why we can't is simply just giving up
I'm not saying Michigan doesn't have recruting advantages over a lot of teams that are doing better than us. And that's why I think if anyone in the Michigan AD thinks 7-5 is RR's typical season and 9-3 is his ceiling, then they should consider a change.
But if people are thinking that Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops or other elite-level coaches would jump at Michigan (not you necessarily, but that idea was floated with respect to this topic) , then we're talking about another level of success beyond the Wisconsins, Iowas, even BSUs of the world, we're really talking about a slim tier of USC, Florida, Texas (and I might even add Florida State because I can't for the life of me figure out why they aren't a year-in year-out top 10 team).
But I tend to agree, that a reasonable expectation is a top 20 team, challenge for the B10 title 3 out of 4 or 5 years, and seriously challenging for national titles maybe once every 3-5 years.
So in sum, if RR detractors think that he can't achieve that level, then I would agree it's fair to move on. Howeva, if RR detractors think that he CAN acheive that, but they want better than that, then that's where I tend to disagree as to where Michigan sits in the college football pecking order, and whether people's expectations are reasonable.
your point is well argued
Here's what is unique to Michigan in your list:
* # of alums
* size of stadium
I'll bet the new football building ranks pretty well. You could add the new Barwis palace. Still, I'll bet they're not that much better than the best of the SEC and Big 12. Not enough to make a difference, anyway ...
Tradition matters, but in the modern era Michigan has lots of peers.
I like Ann Arbor, and it brings a lot to the table for its weight class, but (from the perspective of a football recruit) how does it differ from (say) Athens, GA and Oxford, MS?
I seriously doubt anyone cares that we have the most alums.
There are a lot of big (80K+) stadiums out there. Some smaller ones (e.g. Autzen) are much noisier.
On academics, we have another case where you have to consider the recruit's perspective. Guys like Patrick Omameh are uncommon. Most of the players will wind up in fields where the difference between a BA from Michigan and one from Oklahoma won't be significant. Remember that, even at Michigan, quite a few players will wind up in "Sports Management and Communications." You don't need a BSE in Nuclear Engineering to be a champion axle salesman.
And that was quite an acceptable explanation.
This nailed it. Some people are never happy, never satisfied. Even when the team wins, they complain. Forget 'em, they're idiots.
I find the UNACCEPTABLE use of "UNACCEPTABLE" extreemly UNACCEPTABLE.
I agree witht he OP. There is a large contingent of posters here who believe that it is entirely unacceptable to criticize or have doubt in our coaching staff. What has resulted is:
(1) a bunch of posts starting with , "I am a RR supporter, but," as an attempt to avoid the neg bang, and
(2) a real stifling of any honest debate on the issue.
I am not defending the trolls or vitriol-spewing morons who want to post LOL DICKFRAUD, THE SPREAD IS DED, OMG LOLZ NO FAMILY VALUES. These types of posts add nothing to the conversation.
But, I don't see why it is upsetting if people want to engage in a discussion about the direction of their beloved program. In the past 2.5 years, we have had a 3-9 season, a 5-7 season, both resulting in snapping the then longest active bowl streak, NCAA violations, mass transfers (including a QB who could be in the running for the heisman this year), losses to MAC teams, and a general degradation of our reputation as a perennial powerhouse. Now I am not saying that all of these things are on RR. But, I don't see anything wrong with people asking the question or having an opinion on the matter.
For those that disagree with the opinions expressed by posters who are critical of RR and his staff, respond with you opinion. Try to change people's minds. Ignore the posts. But, I fail to see why people feel that it is necessary to chastize anyone who expresses an opinion different than their own.
Thanks for this. You expressed my feelings in a far less sarcastic way.
Allow me to offer a counter:
Over time, Michigan fans have stratified themselves. Some want the LCD on regular forums, willingly putting up with the slings and arrows of other LCD posters from other schools. But there are those, just as passionate, who maybe lean a little more analytical. They feel, but they want reasons, explanations, understanding. They come here because they get that. Brian sets the tone, and the posters follow said tone and work to maintain said tone. This may have the negative impact of "echo chambering", but it also may be a tacit admittion by many posters that they know what the other side of the coin is, and they would prefer to look at the positives. Losing sucks enough, do we really want the same things rehashed, time and again? I don't think that those who come here looking for the tone are wholly, if at all, pleased with what is going on, but they're seeing that, as with most things in life, there are not simple solutions. Heck that's the essence of Brian's paragraph between the photo and the bullets in today's game column.
There is one more thing though: Do we honestly think that an opinion face-off is going to win the day here? People who have defended the coaching staff have done so largely through and extensive use of data. I presume, though I could be wrong, that those who would care to place the onus of the current state of affairs on the coaching staff could also bring data/research and they would be given due consideration.
But, if people don't want to engage in that type of discussion, they don't have to click on the thread or if they do (because many of the post titles are not all that good), they can just click off. Berating and insulting posters for having a divergent opinion is not productive.
(I don't think that we are saying different things, by the way).
No disagreement, but at that point, you're largely asking for a sea change in the behavior of posters on message boards. There may be, generally, a higher level of discourse here, but there are still undercurrents of the "other" here.
Not that it's not worth aiming for, but as someone said up thread, those whose dispositions are inclined towards loathing are going to, by and large, loathe.
I agree with your sentiment, and I do think honest discourse does occur if put forth with reasonable eloquence. I have never negged somebody for having a contrary opinion, but when it is wrapped in "you people are all sheep" tones, that can be a bit annoying. Thank you for your post, and I welcome a legit discussion of the future of the program.
One note I take with your post - the freshman QB who left (Mallet) was out the door as soon as Carr arrived (and may have been gone anyway), so let's not attach that to the RR tenure.
On the Mallett point, you may be right on that. But, we will never know. If RR came to the kid and said, "look, I know that I am known for the zone read option offense, but man can I envision a whole new wrinkle in my offense with you at the helm. I think that the sky is the limit" - might Mallett have reconsidered? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe RR actually did say that and Mallett just wanted out. But, there have been a large number of transfers, some of whom could have made a big difference, and part of that (and certainly not all of that) is on RR.
January 16, 2007: Sophomore to be and starting quarterback Mitch Mustain announces transfer plans from Arkansas.
Spring 2007: Ryan Mallett does not have winter coat for first Michigan winter.
December 12, 2007: Bobby Petrino introduced as new Arkansas head coach.
I think your general intent is constructive and seems to be receiving positive responses and gaining an honest hearing. For me, though, issues arise when someone seeks to re-litigate issues that have been covered exhaustively on this blog. Your paragraph wanting to discuss the "direction of the program" includes many items that have been discussed to death here and I don't think anyone expects to change any minds (on either side of the debate):
- 3-9 season (aka, "unacceptable!")
- 5-7 season (aka, "still unacceptable!")
- bowl streak snapped (aka, well, you get it)
- NCAA violations
- mass transfers
- MAC losses (plural? who's that on?)
- reputational degradation
I appreciate the interest in having a discussion or having an opinion, but a lot of this has been covered. Or may be better assessed in an off-season when there's more data and less interesting stuff happening.
Is that most of the people I know were haters of the Carr regime as well. I went to UM for 8 years from 2002-2010 and the only people that seem to be really raging right now and banging on the war drums are my friends who did the exact same when Carr was going 7-5, etc.
IME, these are the people who will never be happy no matter what we do. If we end up firing RR, hiring Harbaugh (flavor of the month), and going 7-5, they will start clamoring again.
We need to give it 1 more year. I will admit that my patience wavered for the first time this weekend in the first half, but I am patient enough to realize that we have a really horrific secondary right now and games like this will happen... just disappointed that our O with Denard at the helm couldn't get going more.
IMO, this is really year #2, but I really do think that we need to step up the defensive recruiting. There should be no reason why we can't snag a couple highly ranked defensive recruits with the moniker... "U WILL PLAY YESTERDAY". Just sayin'...
the quiet college football fan who used to mutter only to himself and his friends who would tolerate it(usually his dog).
Now "fans" come on the internet and read someone ranting and decide subconsciously that kind of behavior is ok, and they to begin ranting on the internet.
and the weed, grows and grows and grows, until the strong oaks of the forest, the ones who don't lose their cool and have a certain degree of perspective (like watching a man given 1% to walk), are drowned out and all the passersby see is the weeds.
I have long advocated a board division where there is a place for people who simply want to vent. This would be a place for the "UNACCEPTABLE" crowd to post. The only reason I have been critical of these posts is because I personally don't want MGoBlog to be the kind of place where people go to vent. I want to read thoughtful discussions, analysis, and news about Michigan sports. I think that what is being cast as the "Joy Division" is only a reaction to that.
I mean honestly, what earthly purpose is there to this sort of post:
I am fed up! We should not be making these mistakes in year 3! Interceptions, fumbles, penalties, blocked punts, poor tackling! This is UNACCEPTABLE!! We are MICHIGAN!!! We are the LEADERS and BEST, not the FOLLOWERS and WORST!!!
The answer, of course, is venting. Catharsis. For some reason that I don't understand, people like to talk about how mad they are on the internet. I don't know what they are hoping to achieve; that is, let's say the force of their vitriol convinced others to be similarly upset. What would that accomplish? It would be one thing if those posts were followed by some call to collective action, like "everyone who agrees with me should write to David Brandon and demand that RichRod be fired!!!" That at least would be consistent with the tone of the posts. But that never happens.
Nevertheless, because there are people who, again, for reasons I don't understand, like to shout on the internet, I think MGoBlog should have a dedicated area where people get to vent. I would have no problem with this. And in fact, I think it would be a lot less problematic than the mods' having to delete certain posts and not others. Mods, what say you?
Go to MSM outlets like Mlive and A2 dot com; you will find plenty of "those" people there. Luckily, when they come here, they get negged into oblivion, get pissed off, and eventually leave.
NOT ENUFF KETTLEKORN BOOTHS AT THE STADIUM, FIELDING YOST WOULD HAVE DEMANDED MOAR KETTLEKORN FOR MICHIGAN MEN. UNACCEPTABLE!!