But the pledges were roaring drunk during most of this, and half of it was probably the drunk pledges' ideas.
UM's SAE Fraternity Chapter Suspended
But their sweet little babies would NEVER behave like that!
Seriously this helicopter parenting in college thing is getting ridiculous.
i'd also love to see how my getting home to review the news of the day means i read it on their site. wouldn't i have posted it shortly after they did if you were correct?
tl;dr: shut up
p.s. Provide me 5 posts i've created that are RCMB-sourced. i'd love to see it since 2/3 of my posts are from there and all.
You spend too much time on the RCMB. I swear that 2/3 of the topics you post are pulled directly from there.
Says the guy who trolls around on MGoBlog at 11 PM.
Late night flame war! Let me get my lab goggles on!
carrying an egg on a spoon around the Beta house seem innocent enough.
Oh, the Betas are gone, too.
Beta is actually back on campus this coming Fall
it was in some guy's house on campus and run by a bunch of middle-aged guys. my pledge class featured a wide variety of individuals all comedically intertwined by our interest in fun and growing together. rated R for nudity, language and sexual themes.
Was someone in this group named Blue?
you mean the old navy vet who hung around the stereo store?
About 110lbs and pushing 89 years of age?
You my boy blue!
Do me a personal favor, just for tonight, shut your pie hole.
This sounds epic - epically awesome or stupid depending on your perspective, but epic nonetheless.
not everything is epic. Awesome, stupid, gross, immature, etc I'll give you, but not epic.
I was in a fraternity, so perhaps I am biased... But honestly, what college kid tells his parents these kinds of things? I didn't tell my parents what happened in the varsity football locker room in 8th grade.
somebody who felt he was in on the joke for four days and on the fifth felt like he was the target and, thus, no longer liked it. while the actions crossed the line, i find it telling that the acts were related to a relative only after a significant period of time.
More like someone hoping for a career in "investigative journalism" at the FREEP following graduation.
I'm sure that the students who complained were dropped/not offered by the frat, but at the same time there really should be no situation when a set of college students shoot other college students with airguns and/or kick them in the groin for sport (or I guess for official purposes as well). I get the whole fraternity culture/mindset (not part of it, but I honestly understand why it is appealing), but there have to be less violent ways to show your dedication and commitment to other people - I'm married, and I never asked my wife to let me beat her up to prove her feelings for me.
I'm sure this will all blow over, but I have little sympathy for a fraternity that should know better than to haze to this degree.
If they made it this far the pledges weren't dropped, rush decides who's in and who's out. The events noted occurred during hell week, thus the pledges were 1 week away from becoming active for the most part. I'm not saying getting "egged" or being kicked in the groin with your nutty buddy on is something I'd look forward to, but these events our passed down from pledge class to pledge class as it's looked as a way to unite the class as the incoming class experiences these "challenges," together and honestly will be talking and joking about them 20 years down the road.
There are a lot of people who get de-pledged somewhere in the process. Being a member of a fraternity, some of this shit makes me sick. Airsoft guns? Really? Why on earth would you feel the need to shoot someone one day and call them your brother the next?
Also, not sure about SAE, but in my fraternity, finding alcohol at anything related to pledging/initiation would be cause for suspension.
There is not one single thing about that story that I would be outraged about should a future son of mine go through it. It's stupid, yep. But the sensitivity and outrage is stupider.
I would agree there's a lot of sensitivity there. But that sensitivity comes from trying to overcome the stereotypes of Animal House, and 3/4 of the people I meet.
Stupid and juvenile or not, things like this set back the whole greek system in terms of perception.
Getting shot with an airsoft gun is hardly anything to cry about. My friends entire hall were armed with them my frosh year in West Quad. They always had full on tactical battles in the hallways. Plus its not like these kids weren't aware they would be hazed. If you rush in this day and age you have to expect it is going to happen or you are sadly lacking in street smarts. The eggs and flour also were common occurrences amongst us gdi's just for falling asleep first. Sad to see them suspended again. Way to go to all the lawyers and soccer moms for murdering lots of great memories for those guys.
But you decided that you should come on mgoblog and share the suggestion that you have a shameful secret about what you did in the locker room with the football players?
Gee, thanks. I feel so special.
It's called an analogy.
But I guess making judgments based off of analogies on the internet on Friday nights means that you wouldn't understand that.
have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moon light?
in any event, maybe you should be more careful about the analogies you choose.
What's more, I'm not judging you. Do whatever makes you feel free and beautiful, man.
I suppose I should choose my words more carefully over the interwebs. I was just trying to express a belief that the media is overreacting to this situation. But I also realize that I am biased on topics pertaining to fraternities.
It was just hard to tell if you had a secret from 8th grade or if you were making a point. I'm probably not the only one who thought, "is that guy serious?"
One more thing: how is this a media over-reaction? Unless there's something I'm missing about the story, the decision to suspend the fraternity was made independently of media reaction. The media is reporting the suspension, not inviting a decision to suspend by reporting the hazing ritual.
You were on the varsity football team in 8th grade?
"But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!"
[Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
WHO IS THIS UNNAMED PARENT? THIS IS ALL A LIE TO BRING DOWN THE FRAT'S REPUTATION! LIBEL! SLANDER! OBJECTION, SUSTAINED, MOVE TO STRIKE!
I think that it might be best for all concerned if this kid and his pathetic parent remain anonymous. This really is a wonderfully stupid story. "Animal House" is profound by comparison. Warning to consenting adults: Don't visit the SAE House if you don't wish to play by their rules. And parents... Oh, never mind.
So when is the 2011 Mud Bowl, and who's playing?
As long as everybody's consenting to it, that's great. But the IFC and its member fraternities are associated with the University, which makes this a public issue. I'd rather not have my alma mater associated with these shenanigans.
Also, for the record, I never rushed a fraternity, so my opinion isn't based on a grudge against the Greek system.
maybe, just a little bit, if this really had much to do with the University as such. I might be even slightly concerned if anyone had been injured, or if one or more of the pledges themselves had made the subject complaint.
But this was, apparently, an angry report by one parent, of one pledge.
In distinction from your view, I think that I am a bit ashamed that my alma mater would associate itself with this helicopter-parent psychodrama.
And I think I do feel sorry for that SAE pledge. Not because he was wronged by the SAE brothers. But rather because the poor kid has to co-exist with that parent.
taking hockey slap-shots at the pledge class using tennis balls as hockey pucks; two pledges drinking cups of water with goldfish, regurgitating them back out into a bowl, and another pledge drinking the remainder;
I hereby approve this post.
Why don't they all just chuck the homoerotic subtext and go ahead and screw each other?
Brah, that was a very un-brah thing to say.
Anyway, hazing doesn't sublimate the homoeroticism. That's what GHB-fueled date rape is for.
Doesn't really sound that bad. Honestly, you can get this kinda shit without fraternities. Guys are fucking idiots to each other. Hell a lot of that sounds kinda fun. Who wouldn't want to have a giant fucking egg fight. Get drunk and slapshot tennis balls at each other? AWESOME!
we used to slingshot tennis balls down the hallway 30 yards or so at probably 45 mph (at least) just to fuck with the other guys as they came to their room. i vaguely remember someone on that floor dumping a trash can filled with water down the stairwell, causing a cascade of water down six floors. and the girl who walked into the guys' room and peed on the laptop bc she was so drunk she thought she was in a stall in the women's bathroom one door down.
come to think of it, that floor was pretty much a microcosm of the greek system
Half my floor at Oxford Housing was part of Greek life. Some of them were part of SAE. I remember them looking pretty stressed during Hell Week when I saw them in class. Cleaning up the house and acting as monitors during parties should be the extent of hazing IMO.
I was IFC president for a term, during which I saw and heard quite a bit. I'm somewhat surprised this is what finally did SAE in.
It's almost always something that seems really inconsequential that does them in.
or you could just throw the tennis balls like a man at 80 mph if you have an arm and make people cry more
And 45 was likely a very low estimation
This is the same thing I was thinking. I've done the same and probably worse to my drunk friends, and much worse when my drunk friends were passed out. I think there are worse types of hazing going on.
Parents just dont understand..
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jW3PFC86UNI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
You rascal, I was trying to edit my post to make it work :) Thanks though
Sounds like a fun night
Just as long as they drink themselves to sleep tailgating and don't bother me or fall into me while I'm trying to watch the game, I can deal with them being stupid on the way down to the stadium.
Oh, right, pledging. Sorry, but if you want to be in a fraternity, you should be ready for stuff like that. That doesn't make it right, and that's why I think fraternities in general are kind of stupid, but clearly this kid didn't think fraternities are stupid since he wanted to be in one, so he should probably have been prepared to deal with what he got.
And especially SAE.
There are plenty of fraternities at UofM you can join and not get hazed at all, and many more where you just might have to clean up the house every Sunday.
If you pledge SAE, you should probably know whats coming to you.
You REALLY need to stay on MSU boards. That last sentence was bro-tastic
So If I'm reading that right, you're saying it takes the same amount of courage to get kicked in the testicles, as it takes to have intercourse with an attractive female?
I guess I'm going to have to disagree. One of those seems like something I would be motivated to do, one of those seems like something I wouldn't necessarily want to happen.
the dreaded /s. As he is clearly busting balls with that line.
It does if you're in the closet.
this response was pretty f'n funny as it plays nicely off the fraternity guy stereotype.
For the record, even though I was in a house I try to be as objective as possible when these stories come out and look at both sides. It's not always "some pussy kids parents ruining our fun."
F-ing Gams. If you don't know, don't bother asking.
So wait, do they get their money back? If they don't get friends, what's the point?
There are more serious implications.....Does this mean no mudbowl next year?
It's always the unintended consequences that are a bitch.
Nitwits. Same as it always was everywhere that it exists.. A bunch of people who don't have the social skills or courage to go make friends on their own and have to buy them so they can recreate high school.
.....I knew a few people in the Greek system that not only had their crap together, but were also able to juggle a liberal beer/porn schedule.
I'm glad frats have their proper purpose: to make sure that hiring decisions that ought to be meritocratic are based on whether you were cool enough to get a bid to the right fraternity when you were eighteen.
I was in a Fraternity and I have the social skills to not make ridiculous observations based on long standing stereotypes and not actual investigative evidence, and on a platform where there will certainly be individuals who are going to be offended by such an asinine statement.
What are your thoughts on MLM(multi-level marketing)? It sure seems like there are some similarities between it and the fraternity concept based on your response above. Yet MLM seems to be right in your wheelhouse, what gives?
BTW- As I asked you the other day and surprisingly got no response. What happened to all the free positive life lessons you loved to provide everyone in your posts when you first joined? Did you grow and beard or something and become "EVIL NATE VOLK" from an opposite galaxy?
lol nate didn't get a bid
of America. That is all.
Does that mean that the SAE's will be banned from the Mud Bowl, like the Phi Delts were? All the old traditions are washed away, first no Phi Delts and now no SAE's. It will be harder to ban the SAE's, though, since the Mud Bowl is in their side yard.
They are suspended from the IFC. The members of SAE aren't kicked off campus or even out of their house.
If they so choose, they can still host the event and they can still invite another Fraternity to participate. The IFC can object, but can't prevent it from happening.
load bottle rockets in a 3 ft copper pipe and shoot it down the hall like a bazuka.
We built a 30ft (3 story) bong.
One of the best things about the time I've spent since graduating from Michigan at two Catholic schools (Notre Dame & Catholic U. of America) is that fraternities and sororities are unconditionally banned from campus. There are one or two honor societies w/ Greek letter names, but no true Greek life in the sense we think of. Having lived both ways, deleting Greek life from campus makes campus better. No doubt about it.
Yep, I too support the idea of no freedom of association.
All universities have limits of some sort on sanctioned student organizations. This determination is, I would assume, based upon principles of what constitutes healthy community life on campus. CUA & ND have both come to the conclusion, correct so far as I can see, that Greek life is toxic to the overall health of campus life. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, but a school that decides to keep Greek life out is doing itself a favor.
Michigan is not a Catholic university. So yeah, the communities at ND and CUA are different than Michigan in far more substantial ways than simply having no Greek life. These differences substatially affect the effect of Greek life on the campus community.
Furthermore, just because you have a problem with Greek life does not mean that everyone else does. One of the great things about Michigan is that it offers pretty much anything you could want from a college with regard to campus life. If you want to enjoy the benefits that Greek life has to offer, you can. If you want to avoid Greek life, you can to. I personally do not belong to a fraternity, nor do I go to fraternity parties or events and I have little interest in doing so. But I don't see any reason that my friends, who enjoy the things Greek life has to offer, shouldn't be able to partake in them.
My thoughts exactly.
Going to school at a highly politicized campus in DC, I thought all the left wing organizations were "toxic".
Ranging from having to listen to them chant and rally for whatever was the trendy cause at 8 am on a Friday outside my dorm; to having them put libelous things in a campus newspaper about other students and organizations.
Now I would wish that they didn't exist, but that I know is unreasonable. If some kid wants to wear Birkenstocks and smell like crap, wear hand me down clothing even though they had mommy and daddies credit card, power to them.
If you don't like Greek Life, dont participate.
I'm intruiged by the things that you write. They make wonder; have you ever been to Ann Arbor? Are you familiar with the reputation of the town and the university?
I lived in Ann Arbor my whole life. Part of the reason I left was because of the nutjob liberal left running the town. I graduated from Pioneer. I applied and was accepted at U of M, State, and Indiana ( the Big Ten schools I applied too) but owing to my financial situation and desire to leave the town I grew up in and spent my entire life I accepted a athletic scholarship at another school. Michigan only had my sport as a club sport not Division One varsity.
While the whole ritualized determining-which-18-year-old-is-cool-enough-to-join-our-organization that does nothing thing is wierd, I have friends who love their fraternity or sorority and whose college life would be much worse without it. Some, and SAE is probably one of them, are full of douchebags, true. But douchebags will be douchebags regardless. I mean if you go to Catholic, you must be aware of Georgetown which has no greek life and the biggest concentration of toolbags north of Duke.
There are fraternities on Notre Dames campus. They are just underground for fear of explusion.
PA to all my brothers in SAE.
I was an SAE at a nationally supported yet banned from our college chapter.
This is not hazing. I hardly call having to run stairs as hazing.
Coming from a chapter known for our pledge inspiration program, it bonded me and my pledge class together, and made me true life long friends. I don't regret a minute of it.
If you don't want to pledge, don't join a fraternity. This article strikes me as either a kid who got blackballed, or one who told his overprotective mom about the pledge process.
If you are old enough to vote and join the military, you are old enough to decide whether to join a fraternity or quit from pledging. No one made you pledge, and no one can force you to continue. And if you are too weak willed to say "no" to something you don't want to do, you have to take lessons in how to be a man.
I distinctly remembering punching out a overzealous alumni when I was a pledge.
I also love people who never pledged commenting on this topic. You have no idea what you are talking about.
It's just like if The Knowledge was a douchebag frat boy!
"This is not hazing. I hardly call having to run stairs as hazing."
You should probably go back and reread the article.
I never made a comment about the stairs not being covered in crisco.
My point was that running the stairs like that is tame. And having tennis balls slapshot at you, while maybe painful, isn't going to kill you.
You all need to stop acting like over protective mothers. No one made the kid pledge.
Just hit 'Enter' once to start a new paragraph. This isn't Microsoft Word. Don't you even go back to look at your posts after you hit 'Save'? This is really simple editing stuff, and I feel confident that you can do it.
Never been more glad to have no idea what I am talking about.
Um, I don't know if you saw the original post, but I would say that having to traverse stairs which were intentionally made hazardous while being poked and prodded by your peers-to-be (assuming you are accepted after all the humiliation) has both feet in the definition of "hazing". The fact that people actually chose to attempt this climb does not relieve SAE of responsibility for the situation.
lol frats.. i didn't need to pay to have friends or big parties in college
hazing is retarded.. all the frats near my house in college all got busted so the end result was them coming to my house to party every wk so they wouldn't get busted. I didn't mind, just as long as they would of stopped bothering me to rush every 5 secs they partied at my house.
Were you cool and/or popular in college? If yes, or even no, write a post pointing out that you were in a casual, subversive and, of course, condescending way.
It really never gets old. I've never been in a frat, I know nothing about them, so I'll make an ignorant observation. Hazing like this is immature, and my fraternity never did stupid things like that. However I will admit that when I was 18, I was a little immature, and I did do some stupid shit in college.
Articles about fraternities are always negative. I never see a story about all the community service I did with my brothers, or life lasting bond that I made with them after going through things like hell week. My father is 58 years old, and he just got back from a trip that consisted of 30 of his fraternity brothers.
I knew a few guys that made this argument. The majority of the time it stemmed from a time where we let the girls they were with into the party and not them, or someone that rushed and got blackballed.
I'm glad you edited your post. You made a really good point about frats being more than just superficial friendships, that last little bit about "not getting girls, etc." was ruining it for me the way you said it at first. I was never in a frat and didn't really care for the ones at my school (WMU), but I understand that at some schools its completely different. I have a lot of friends at other schools who pledged and loved it and didn't turn into stereotypical douchbags. Here's something I saw on a friends facebook page last week, you'll probably enjoy it pdgoblue25.
Most guys I know who dislike frat guys, to a certain extent myself included, was because there is always someone looking to fight for no other reason than because he knows he has 50 people to back him up.
Is a fair point. I can only attest to my fraternity, but there were a few on campus that we hated for the same reasons.
I wasn't in a frat, but at some point, do any of the brothers turn to each other and say, "isn't this a little immature"? I mean I would expect 21-22 yr olds to be a little above some of those things. That sounds a lot like what a senior in high school would do trying to be more "college".
I wasn't in a frat either, and I can't believe I missed out on all of that fun!
As a male undergraduate college student, there are very few times when I think "isn't this a little immature?" and even if I do, and the answer is yes, I'll probably do it anyway.
I was a Sigma Chi from 80-81 and we were subjected to nothing like what the OP describes. There was a significant amount of sleep deprivation, house cleaning and general mind-fuck during hell week but that's about it. I loved the the house cause I was a transfer from CMU and didnt really know anybody on campus and didnt want to live in the dorms anymore.
Now mind you a few years after I graduated the Sigs also got bounced from campus for doing things like underage drinking and shooting pellet guns at West Quad but that was after I was gone.......
We just threw eggs at cars and hit golf balls off the roof.
Hazing can be fun when it's creatively done.
Yep, we had some sleep deprivation, work, exercise, eating some gross stuff, and lots of binge drinking. There was never any violence, public humiliation, or anything sexual. It taught me that I could handle a lot, and left my friends and I with some awesome memories and stories.
Maybe things have changed at UM since I was there in the 70's. When I looked for a frat to join I wanted one that respected their building and each other. Not all frats were the same. Hopefully there are still some "gentlemen" fraternities in existence.
I never did know where that money went
I never was sure it was well spent
But I paid it
I'm no troublecauser and besides I figured that's life
If you want good friends it gonna cost you
In all seriousness though, I never joined a fraternity at U of M but never really had a problem with anyone who did. As a previous poster said, most seemed to have their shit together and used it to their advantage.
a college freshman my roommate and I went to a frat party. A girl I went to high school and her roommate both worked for the college newspaper. The two girls wanted my roommate and I to infiltrate the frat and tell them about their meetings and pledge process - because they wanted to publish things in the paper and get the frat busted. We refused - but then other writers from the paper approached us - it was crazy. THE POINT being, there are people always trying to bring other people down...it is not fair how the pledges are treated. If you don't like the pledging process - DON'T PLEDGE! Yes the things pledges go through often times are pretty disgusting - but they can leave anytime and it is their decision to be there.
The only thing that strikes me at all is one pledge drinking the vomited gold fish of another pledge. Other than that the rest of it sounds relatively amusing.
Church youth groups and YFC meetings used to do that stuff, hardly limited to frat pledges.
Weren't they already suspended once recently?
If I recall from having been member of SAE, they were on probation recently, an had been suspended some time before that instance and been allowed back to Greek life. I may be incorrect as I am from another off campus chapter but that is what I recall from meeting the Michigan brothers at convention.
Yeah, the Sig Eps burned their house down, must have been 10-12 years ago and got their charter revoked. The University actually had the house torn down and Weill Hall was built on the site. I had no idea they allowed a new SAE chapter back onto campus.
Sig Eps, and SAE are totally different fraternities. And Sig Ep didnt burn their house down. This happened in the mid-90s a bit longer than ten years ago.
Here is the story. In the early 90s Sig Ep national/local alumni dump a ton of money into their fraternity house. It went from being a dump to being just beautiful on the inside, it was really really nice. Total moron of a young brother in the house on a power trip makes some kid drink till he almost dies. Kid goes to hospital and everyone comes (rightly) down hard on the house. National yoinks the charter from the fraternity but doesnt move the kids out till the semester ends. Kids feel like they were abandoned by their national over the actions of one moron.
Here is the issue, angry kids still have months to live in pristine house before the semester ends. Guess what the theme of every party for the next few months is? See how many bottles you can blast through the nearest wall/window was what I remembered most. The kids destroy the house to the point that it is totally unlivable.
As usual for Ann Arbor when the kids are out, vagrants move in...vagrants burn down house, though considering the massive damage the kids did to the house, it may have just been an insurance scam.
How do I know all this? Moron guy had pledged my fraternity and the only reason anyone gave him any time of day is that he was quasi-on the football team. Eventually we just booted him because he was a gigantic idiot/tub of goo. He then pledged Sig Eps and made it through their pledge process. My best friend was a Sig Ep through all this, so I got the full story coming and going.
The whole point is that it was a sad story for all involved, Sig Ep lost a chapter that had been in existence for longer than 100 years, and the kids were out on the street looking for a new place to live. Too bad they werent a bit more mature, but I do understand their anger, if not their actions in destroying a beautiful home.
Thanks for this. I was on campus shortly thereafter, and the house was a burned-out shell. It was the subject of urban legend. The craziest (and most obviously bullshit) rumor I heard was that the SigEps were selling coke and other drugs from their house and burned it down to cover the evidence.
Just FYI...SAE (Sigma Alpha Epsilon) is a completely different house than SigEp (Sigma Phi Epsilon). Honest mistake, lots of people confuse them. SigEp was rechartered on campus and has a "balanced man" program for pledging, strictly no hazing.
Nor any other frat.
what you non-bros don't understand is that in 20 years we'll all be laughing about this as we cruise the mediterranean in the yachts we bought with money earned during our rapid ascension to the top of the frat-connection dominated business world, yo
Cool story, bro
Why work hard when you can milk conections you don't deserve? Everyone does it but to elevate it to a point of pride is rather despicable.
You're sort of an embarassment to UofM.
I was kidding though.
that fraternities do is bad for the whole system, gives them a poor public image, and does not encourage strong brotherhood IMO. I was an active member of a fraternity at U-M and our initiation was designed to get future members to understand fully the responsibilities of being brothers to each other. There was no physical or mental abuse, no idiotic pranks, and no alcohol (until after the whole thing was over). It was created as a reflective, solemn ceremony not an ordeal that had to be survived to show "tough" you are or how loyal of a brother you were going to be. I don't really understand why the national organizations of a lot of these fraternities haven't overhauled their ceremonies and rituals to something more ethical and that promotes higher ideals. Also, these types of abusive ceremonies will only promote legal problems in today's world.
I'm really surprised with a topic like this, that not a single person posted "Cool Story Bro".
Agree that's some over-the-top shit. You can still haze the shit out of your pledges without resorting to homo-erotic sadism.
I think brotherhood can be a very positive thing but what does it have to do with this kind of stupidity?
If you wish to be in a fraternity and to talk about all of the positives of such then fabulous but what is the point of all this degradation? These acts, regardless of how harmless some wish to potray them, clearly constitute hazing. Hazing is illegal. Period.
Why do so many wish to defend these acts that have nothing to do with brotherhood and forming life long bonds and are clearly illegal?
For those that complain about the negative PR that fraternities allegedly get, it is these types of juvenille rituals that cause that negative PR. You of all people should be against these illegal activities.
I absolutely agree with most of your points. If stuff went over the line at my chapter I would tell the right people.
The perception argument (at least mine) is that M probably has around 30 greek organizations, and they all take flak for this. On the other hand, it's rarely reported when the greek system produces statistically significant higher GPA's. And the amount of money and community service time put back into the community is also rarely noted outside the greek system.
I try not to judge someone based on whether or not they want to go through the frat stuff but just quit. Don't ruin it for the rest of the guys that can hack it. I went through hell week and it blows but I sucked it up. If someone quits, someone quits. Its another thing to take down a fraternity in the process. Not to mention the poor kid will likely have to transfer schools.
Half the world is straight and free, and the rest are SAE's!
It's hard to imagine a bunch of automotive engineers ever getting that rowdy with new members, but damn it, rules are rules.
I've heard of a lot worse hazing, even from SAE. The only thing that is truly disgusting on that list is the whole drinking of puke. (Not that any of it is fun....)