UM vs OSU Talent
I'm intrigued by a few of the posters on the interview with Michael Citro who noted or didn't like that OSU fans seem to have the opinion that UM has inferior talent team-wide than the Buckeyes. From your view, how do you think UM and OSU stack up to each other by position group? My thoughts:
QB = OSU>UM (Even with any perceived weaknesses, Braxton is above any UM QB by a comfortable margin)
RB = OSU>UM (Elliott, Dunn, and Smith have all played well when they've had snaps. UM's OL may have held back the RBs last year, but at this point I can't say I'd take any of UM's backs over those 3)
OL = OSU>UM (After watching UM's OL this spring, I'll take OSU's even with the new starters)
WR = wash (A number of OSU fans will argue this, but our talent is young and unproven. Until they do it on the field I can't say they are better. I'll say Smith/Wilson = Funchess for now. After him UM is also unproven, but talented and athletic as well)
DL = OSU>>>UM (OSU has one of the top 2 or 3 DLs in the nation)
*LB = UM>OSU *Edited after good counter arguments* (With pre-injury Ryan, I would've said advantage UM. But he wasn't quite the same after coming back last year and until he shows that he's fully back, I can't give him a demonstrative edge. I also don't like the move to the middle. Perry will be entering his third year as a starter and he was solid last year for OSU. After that, I consider both teams to be lacking in star power for now)
*CB = UM>OSU *Edited after good counter arguments* (I was tempted to give OSU the edge because I think Grant is better than any corner UM has, but that is arguable. OSU has a lot of young talent and size, but it's unproven. From an outsider's perspective, it seems UM has played multiple guys with almost the same results year after year and none of their names stick out to me)
S = OSU > UM (I think OSU has more pure talent, but the lack of experience is notable. Powell was solid as a starter last year and brings elite size and good athleticism. Bell was good in his first start as a true freshman and the coaches seem to love him. Burrows is a ridiculous athlete and Tanner is a solid veteran as backups. UM seems to only have 1 identified starting safety for now. What is going on with Thomas? Peppers seems like a good bet, but who knows until he gets on campus)
Specialists = OSU>UM (Cameron Johnston was one of the better punters in the country last year. I expect him to be in All-American consideration as a sophomore. Hagerup is back after being held out a year, but never wowed me. Both teams are replacing starting kickers. Wile has some experience and is 5/8 on FGs. Due to that, he gets a slight edge over our freshman Nuernberger)
LB could easily swing UM's way once the season starts. WR could as well. I think CB easily swings OSU's way unless Peppers ends up playing a CB and lives up to his talent right away.
Feel free to rip it apart, but please give me justifications. I'm trying to get a clear, unbiased view of the two rosters and you all are obviously more knowledgeable about UM's than I am.
I don't think Gardner and Braxton are a wash but I think they're closer than you do. When Pryor was around, I thought Braxton would be a huge improvement, but I don't think he's lived up to his potential yet. He may still, but I'm beginning to think he's another Pryor - a great athlete but will never graduate to become a great quarterback. I think he's marginally better than Gardner because he doesn't make as many mistakes. But that's about it.
+1 for being decently cool for a buckeye
How's the depth? You have the two (Bosa/ Washington) but how deep did OSU go last year and how many guys have PT?
EDIT. Also thanks for posting. Nice to have OSU/ND/MSU guys on here and keep it civil.
Most expect OSU to go 8-10 deep on the DL easily. The wave after the starters is:
DE - Jamal Marcus/Tyquan Lewis
DT - Tommy Schutt
DT - Michael Hill/Joel Hale
DE - Steve Miller
Hill and Lewis do not have game time yet (redshirts), but both had awesome springs and will play. Marcus is a beast athlete who most fans don't consider a big dropoff from Noah Spence. He and Tommy Schutt have starting experience. Miller has played a lot of snaps the last two years. He is good at either DE position and had 3 sacks off the bench last year.
A note on Hale is that he may be switching to OL. He played a good amount of spring there, but has starting experience on the DL and will probably switch back if he doesn't crack the 2-deep on OL. He's a true hole plugger at DT.
All in all, this is probably the deepest and most talented DL at OSU in my lifetime.
And wasn't that the purpose of the post? Talent? Even DLine. While you guys obviously have the edge there, it might not be >>>. Pipkins, Mario O, Taco, and Beyer and others weren't unheralded.
I think OSU might/probably does have a slight edge in overall talent. But I don't think its that much. The gap is experience and production right now.
I would say that osu has better overall talent and our victories are a little sweeter when this is the case. When Biakabutuka ran for 313 vs osu, that was unexpected and that W is one of my favorites.
The problem with this kind of analysis is that you are inconsistent when it comes to discussing talent (roughly = potential) versus performance. It may be that our O-Line has the same talent as theirs or better, it's just that it is not yet developed. The same goes for our cornerbacks. So if the question is the talent on our roster, you probably are stuck with some measurement like the recruiting star system. If performance, then it is not merely a talent issue, but also experience and development.
Basing this off the Star system is all we can do. I think we're talented, and I think we're about to see them with enough college experience to manifest it in the next 1-3 years. Hopefully Hoke can show some of it this year - otherwise the successor will have a chance to look really good in year 1-2, assuming he can retain it.
For the record I am pro-Hoke. We win 10 games after the bowl, and program perception shifts again as we enter 2015 in the Top 10 despite a new QB.
I agree with you. I don't like devolving it down to recruting stars as we all know they aren't the be all end all. I tried to use a mixture of performance, perceived talent (read: recruit stars), and perceived athleticism. 2 of those are completely subjective. I know it makes my post weaker, but I mainly wanted to get feedback and discussion and to learn about what UM fans think of your roster.
But if you find yourself saying that Ohio State's back seven is better than Michigan's, I find myself having a hard time taking the rest of your analysis without a grain of salt..
Sadly I think the OP is correct and its been this way for some time now. Which does largely explain our somewhat less than stellar record against them this century.
UM > Ohio
UM > Ohio
UM > Ohio
Etc. even though we all know it's not true, I don't want to be looked at as an OSU fan, even though they are the better team at nearly every position. Just sayin. Good, non biased breakdown OP.
So basically your thoughts are to rationalize every negatable advantage / disadvantage into OSU > UM? Why did you bother to post this?
OSU's back seven is horrendus. Allowed 400+ yards to M, 300+ to MSU, and 400+ to Clemson to close out the season.
but tell us more about the amount of talent they have.
But besides that, considering what we've seen so far his post isn't that far off.
Just saying. When OSU has a poorly performing unit it's "they have the talent, but a lack of experience" and calls it a wash - ala CB / S. When M has a poorly performing unit a la OL/ RB he merely says "I'll take OSU's" - even though M has 4 / 5 star players.
"OSU has a lot of young talent...I'll take player X over any player M has.....I'll take OSU's players..." how is this statistical analysis?
It's not, it's completely subjective. A big part of comparing UM and OSU's underperforming units is that I think OSU can fix the secondary sooner/easier than UM can fix the OL.
Fair enough. and you seem like an inteliigent poster.
However, your knowledge of the M roster is lacking at best. Yes, you know most of the more well known players. But, I could easily type up something like "OSU seems to have played many of the guys in the secondary year to year with the same results", or, "I'll take Jarrod Wilson over any OSU safety". Debatable obviously, but you get the point.
Absolutely agreed. That's the main reason I posted this here instead of 11W. You guys know the UM players and the trends from spring better than I do.
We have a 5th year SR quarterback with a year and a half of starting experience. I should be feeling better about this season than I do.
OP is right. OSU's current roster has proven it's excellence. And don't cherry pick random outlier games to support a contrary argument. That's like saying we had a great offense last year, based exclusively on ND and OSU games.
This is a correct breakdown, although I would give the edge to Michigan on special teams, particularly with the return of Hagerup. Even if he didn't wow you, he was good enough to be the B1G punter of the year a few seasons back. With the unreliability of Wile's punts last season, it'll be nice to have Hagerup back.
I'll also give Michigan the edge in wideouts, predicated on the solid return of Darboh.
How can you justify OSUs LB/CB groups being better than Michigan? This is the issue. Overall team talent/depth is to their advantage. However, that doesn't apply to every single position group as a whole. I get the feeling that the general DOOM & GLOOM mood towards the program is altering our perceptions of reality. We feel like we suck so we're not even giving credit where its due. OSUs back 7 was pretty bad and they lost a couple NFL players from it. UMs back 7 was "ok" for most of the year and they lost no one + added Peppers. How much do you have to hate yourself to not realize that?
Even if we're only better than them in those 2 particular positions, then gah-damnit I want credit for those 2 positions.
I'll gladly concede the LB comparison once I see that Ryan is back to being able to play 100mph. He's the most proven LB between the two teams, easily.
The CB group at Michigan is solid, but not great. I don't think they frighten any other teams. Peppers, if he plays CB, has the talent to be an early All-American. Same if he plays S. I just didn't know where he will play, plus I have a harder time attributing that much to someone who isn't on campus yet. I didn't factor any OSU recruits in either.
I think Michigan's LBs are very likely to be better than OSU's. RB might also turn out to be a wash, though I think Elliot is the most talented back on either roster.
We may not find out how talented our RBs are if there are D-linemen in their face 2 yards behind the line. Carlos Hyde routinely had 4 yards before he was even touched.
Their D line is better. Bossa is going to be a major pain in the years to come. Other than that, I think everything else is pretty much a wash.
Many people feel negative about this program, but we are competitive against OSU. UM has lost by a grand total of 2 field goals over the past two seasons. I don’t see them pulling away from us, regardless of how many 4-5*, 6’ playmaking WRs that Meyer brings in. I just am not afraid of OSU.
The bigger threat to UM at the moment is MSU, who has been physically superior to us over the past few years. This is the bigger issue, in my opinion.
I just don't see us physically dominating teams when we play them. look at Akron, Uconn games ten years earlier we destroy those teams athletically and physically. I dont see our lines pushing around many teams at all. We need to hit the weight room more often.
5th year seniors versus sophmores and redshirt freshman, or even freshman. Strength is often very reliant on college weight room experience. There are exceptions especially at skill positions where speed and skill are more important.
The one way to overcome strength is technique which also runs into experience as the main factor.
Also spread guys used to zone blocking running a power man system.
I agree wholeheartedly that they better be hitting the weight room and doing everything they can to make their bodies unstoppable machines. I would feel that getting owned last year would be proper motivation. If I was Gardner I'd be picking them up twice a day and driving them to the weight room.
I don't think the talent gap is as big as you portray it. The problem in the comparison that skews it is the scheme. Meyer's scheme fits his talent a LOT better than ours has over the past couple of years. Give Nussmeier and Mattison a year or two to put their scheme in place with their guys, and then revisit the "talent gap".
You're wrong on OSU's secondary, and I think a lot of OSU fans would say that too. Ours was problematic last year, theirs was horrible. Ours is gaining a year of experience plus a potentially amazing true freshman, theirs is horrible.
Otherwise the talent gap is there but should be closing soon with experience and continued recruiting success. However, I don't think Hoke will quite equal Meyer's recruiting ability in the near future, because very few coaches can sit down and talk to you about the type of success that Meyer has had.
All the best to all of you! Good luck, exciting times ahead...
Hope everyone is happy and healthy
Newborn Diapers = Pampers (Pampers Swaddlers size newborn hold up much better to movement and keep the pee it. Huggies tend to slide at night, changing an outfit at 3am is rough.)
Cost = Huggies (Huggies are ~$0.03 cheaper per diaper)
Wipes = Huggies (Much better at cleaning the meconium, that tar-like substance that get's everywhere in the first few poos).
Box Reuse = Pampers (Sturdier design and have a ton of reuse potential. Our son is almost 16 months and I've been reusing the same newborn swaddlers box for a year now for storing homebrew bottles.)
Subliminal Messaging = Pampers (Personal preference here but the Sesame Street characters lean toward growing up watching PBS vs Winnie the Pooh and the Disney Channel)
Denver CFB fan bar:
LoDo>Croc's
There's a Bdubs in Arvada that is owned by a Buckeye alum. He sections off a chunk of the place for OSU fans on game days and offers discounts. The servers all wear OSU (they know how to get tips) on game day and there is Buckeye memorabilia everywhere. Plus, he opens the place at 9:00am on gamedays when OSU kicks at 12:00EST. Other fans are always welcome, too...we've had fans from 30-40 other schools in with us and it's perfectly fine. Even UM fans.