They are Not the NCAA. And that's all that matters.
UGH! "Ohio BMV finds no evidence of wrongdoing by Buckeys"
This is an important distinction. Legally the Buckeyes may have done nothing wrong, but in terms of the NCAA rules and bylaws, they still may have.
They are an entity that is extremely horrible at investigating...
is Ohio for DMV.
Just as, say, Rick Snyder got a BGS, and then got combined MBA/JD degrees at Michigan. (And has courtside season tickets to basketball games.)
Is that evidence of a conspiracy? Is that what you are implying? An official coverup at the highest levels of Ohio government? Is that the "half serious" part?
Was this negged because dogging 9/11 conspiracy theorists is deemed political? Isn't this one of those universal truths we all agree on? That's like ripping on the 3/5 compromise.
THE MOON LANDING WAS FAKED!!!!1!1!
~buys more tin foil
Remember, this is Ohio we are talking about, not Michigan. Nothing, not even ethics, comes before OSU football in that wasteland.
This only addresses the recorded purchase prices of cars. It doesn't deal with all the loaner vehicles or any other "benefit" that is against NCAA rules but is not illegal.
And as many people have pointed out in the past, nobody just gives a kid a major discount on a car because they know that's really obvious to find a violation. The game here is to have the kid trade in a car and give them well over market value for their trade-in. The BMV report just says the sale prices are legit, which I would expect them to be. It says nothing about validating the trade in prices they got for their previous vehicles.
Nor does it address where the money came from to purchase the cars.
the SI report says:
The BMV's 65-page report issued Tuesday said the certificates of titles for cars sold by Jack Maxton Chevrolet and Auto Direct to players and families accurately reflected the vehicles' sales prices.
Where does it say the BMV reviewed the (NADA or Kelly) blue book value for those vehicles, and the vehicles were in reasonable proximity to the blue book value?
Everything they put out is a narrow investigation of a specific point rather than the broader issue. This is Ohio obfuscation and deflection yet again ... I don't really care if the paper work was documented properly, what kind of deal did they get on the car such that 40 players or families bought cars from these two dealers?
[Edit: just saw the same point posted below. Obviously we're all on to them ...]
The original Dispatch investigation stated half of the deals were above book, and half were below book.
What exactly did you want them to do? Just because the NCAA, a non-governmental body, demands that athletes pay Blue Book value for cars doesn't mean that any state government should care. Let's face it, NCAA rules are arbitrary.
The Ohio government wasn't really investigating the players at all. They wanted to make sure any sales taxes and fees were paid. It couldn't care less (and shouldn't IMO) if the players got a great deal.
I was getting a littles pissed that they would get off somehow....
Their obviously in on the cover-up. /s
The damage is done and everything here on out is icing on the cake.
I'm not sure the problem was ever the selling of cars. More the giving away free loaner cars. Maybe I'm wrong about that though. Hopefully, this is just one small part of the allegations against tat school in ohio.
The excessive purchases made through one salesman seems shady, but it's not the crux of the matter. Taking a 1000 mile test drive IS.
Hmmm. This cover-up is bigger than I thought.
You're kidding right? Are you actually implying the Ohio Government is on this? I hate OSU as much as the next guy, but if the UM fanbase actually gets to the point of thinking the Ohio BMV is on this "cover up" then we are quickly approaching the stupidity and arrogance possessed by none other than our own rival.
I encourage you to use "/s" for clarification.
/s takes away from the sarcastic nature of the joke.Especially in this case it was very easy to see the sarcasm
Scroll down and see Tater's comment, sadly some people actually believe this kind of garbage. There's only a /s separating sarcasm and stupidity. I apologize Brumski, but you just never know anymore.
The article only says that the BMV didn't find any false reporting on the titles. That clears the car dealers from possible tax and other legal consequences more than anything else...I don't mean to assume that there were NCAA violations with car purchases. I have no idea. My point is that the headline of the article is misleading as far as what the article itself says.
this isn't surprising. These aren't real cops and this isn't a murder investigation. Investigations taking place in ohio by ohioans will result in myopathy followed by leniance. My belief is that there is such a volume of ugly happenings that have been made public that the NCAA will be forced to deliver stiff sanctions. In the end either osu or the ncaa enforcement committee will suffer (additional) great shame. Since the ncaa gets to make the call it will be osu. Go Blue.
But seriously, I won't be one bit surprised if, at the end of the NCAA's OSU investigation, we find out that a lot of what people like George Dohrmann at Sports Illustrated have been peddling to the public turns out to be garbage, even by those NCAA standards. Rosenberg and Dohrmann follow each other on Twitter. They deserve each other.
It seems commonplace; that when the NCAA completes an investigation of a situation like the one at OSU, that the sanctions seem inadequate and people complain that the NCAA is a spineless enforcer of its own rules. When in fact what people think is that the NCAA hasn't issued punishments for all of the stuff that they read about in Sports Illustrated. In fact SI (and Dohrmann and Rosenberg) have a lot of credibility issues of their own.
I'd never predict it, but it would be so much fun if some of the kids whose names surfaced only in connection with Dohrmann's writing sued him and SI. I hope they do; but I make no predictions.
This is the first I've heard of anyone questioning Dohrmann's credibility. Just becuase he associates with Rosenberg he has credibility issues? Maybe you can clear this up for me because I'm very curious where his issues stem from?
Storm Klein's father, Jason, as well as family and friends of Zach Domicone and C.J. Barnett, are all flatly denying the Dohrmann allegations. The case of Storm Klein was sort of interesting -- his father didn't just issue a blanket denial as a press release. He spoke with a reporter. He answered questions. He asserted in no uncertain terms that Storm doesn't have any tattoos, and that he has passed all of his standard drug tests as part of OSU athletics. Attorneys on behalf of many other players named by Dohrmann have inventoried all of their 'special' memorabilia (B10 rings, gold pants, etc., etc.) and have accounted for virtually all of the stuff as being in the current possession of the players and their families. It is all pretty potent rebuttal to Dohrmann.
" It is all pretty potent rebuttal to Dohrmann."
You mean it is a pretty potent rebuttal to Dohrmann's (well-cited) sources.
It's not even that, since as far as I can tell none of the claims being rebutted were ever made in the article. Nowhere in Dohrmann's article is it said or even implied that Storm Klein had a tattoo, for example.
Yeah, that's true as well. I'm not sure how they are purporting to "rebut" the possibility that he sold game-worn stuff for cash (one of the possibilities raised in the article).
"My client's fingerprints aren't on the gun" says the attorney for the getaway driver.
"My client doesn't even have a drivers license" says the attorney for the gunman.
You haven't actually presented info that Dohrmann isn't a credible reporter beyond this investigation, which is what the poster you are commenting to requested. Yes, all of this info does and should bring us to question the story and Dohrmann's sources, but it does not necessarily infringe upon his credibility or the truth of the story. SOP of law is usually to deny everything. Does it surprise me that Storm Klein's father denied everything? No. Denials to the media really aren't too insightful or telling. If Jason Klein and his family friends are deposed and still claim all of this, then we can start credibly questioning if many of these allegations are true. Additionally, I recall from the interview that Jason refused to answer the reporter on whether or not his son was ever present at the parlor. This is a major red flag: Jason denies most of the inflammatory material about his son (insinuating knowledge that it is all untrue), but then doesn't know or doesn't want to answer if his son ever was at the tattoo parlor. Being at the parlor does not mean he ever did anything illegal by NCAA standards, but sure raises questions about what he was doing there and if he knew what was happening. As much as you can question Dohrmann's story, you should also be questioning Jason Klein and Zach Domicone and CJ Barnett who all have emotional connections to Storm Klein. I think most fathers would not bother skewing truth if it means protecting one's son and his reputation.
I don't suppose that I am going to prove anything about OSU's football program, one way or another.
I don't think that George Dohrmann's reporting is going to be the basis for any NCAA sanctions, either.
The NCAA will investigate, and I expect that their investigation will show whether or not they are getting cooperation from OSU players, coaches and admisnitstrators. With good cooperation from OSU, I expect that it will be a good investigation. And then, we will find out about how accurate Dohrmann's reporting was. Like Michigan found out how accurate the Rosenberg/Snyder reporting was. (Not so much.)
People like Dohrmann and Rosenberg just want to sell newspapers, magazines and page-hits. And I just want to raise serious questions about people like Rosenberg and Dohrmann.
Rosenberg didn't fabricate data. His story was technically correct, but intellectually dishonest.
For Dohrman's article to be wrong, he would have to either be committing journalistic fraud on a massive scale, or lots of people would have to be lying to him.
True, people seem to forget that all these sports articles people get inflammed about (numerous topics) are meant to get people reading their stories and buying their magazines so they can make money. Also, true, the NCAA will make a judgment based on their own findings.
My issue was you questioned the credibility of SI and Dohrmann in your first post, and then someone asked what credibility issues are besides the present issues, you cited a parent and family friend's defense of their son. If you were going to use this instance to question his or SI's credibility, then I wanted to point out there are questions regarding Jason Klein's credibility. His defense is questionable until he is willing to go on record or actually bring suit. Additionally, because he tweets with Rosenberg can't be a reason to question his credibility. Twitter is a massive public domain where anyone can have any type of affiliation. Its twitter....
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the info Dohrmann wrote is incorrect. Maybe his sources don't have everything right. Additionally, I think it is more likely Ohio gets some form of punnishment. Maybe not what Michigan fans desire, but there seems to be too much dirt for Dohrmann to have been completely off base.
Dohrmann's article added little material. It could be 100% false and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
A fair point, and an excellent one. As I read it, from an NCAA-sanctions perspective, I don't see it as a big deal. If OSU used five arguably-ineligible players, or thirteen arguably-ineligible players, I don't think it will matter much.
In that sense, Dohrmann's article could be 100% true and it wouldn't make much of a difference. At least not to foreseeable sanctions.
First off he's a pulitzer prize winning journalist, which doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible that his sources are wrong, but it's a pretty good indication that his work will stand up.
Two, there's a big difference between illegal (what the motor vehicle board was looking for) and against ncaa rules.
Janet Cooke and Rick Bragg are Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists. The Detroit Free Press has won a number of Pulitzers. So...what.
And yeah, I made the Ohio-law-versus-NCAA-rules distinction already.
Rosenberg and Dohrmann follow each other on Twitter.
Section 1 will stop at nothing to bring Michael Rosenberg into any conversation. And great logic there as well.
Haven't we already learned how effectively Buckeyes will investigate other Buckeyes?
something, something, "the guards guarding themselves."
That might be the phrase you're thinking of, who will guard the guards themselves? (It's also a Star Trek episode, of course.)
Juvenal coined the phrase. He would have been unimpressed and unsurprised by the current Ohio debacle, imo.
I believe the title of the episode was "Who Watches the Watchers?" Worth watching if you haven't already.
If I'm reading the quote at the end correctly, all the BMV did was look to make sure that titles accurately reflected the car's sales prices. This doesn't mean the cars were sold above, below or at market value, merely that there isn't any funny business going on with the titles and accounting AT THE DEALERSHIP. The state's interest would most likely be in ensuring that it receives its fair share of taxes and other fees. Without reading all 65 pages (or having access to it), this is a far cry from everything done was "NCAA legal".
"The BMV's 65-page report issued Tuesday said the certificates of titles for cars sold by Jack Maxton Chevrolet and Auto Direct to players and families accurately reflected the vehicles' sales prices"
It's amazing what cash can do.
Everybody in Ohio is confussed and in denial. What a laugh!
1. the state of confusion one suffers through as a result of a concussion.
A few points to keep in mind:
1. Burden of proof:
The BMV's investigation is akin to a criminal investigation - if they find wrongdoing, it is passed on to some form of prosecution agency (I don't know anything about Ohio state law, but presumably their equivalent to a prosecutor's office). A criminal investigation has a standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."
The NCAA investigation is not a criminal investigation, so the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" standard does not apply. In fact, I am not sure that there is any governing standard, but if there is one, it is likely closer to (or less than) the standard in a civil case - proof by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not).
2. Purpose of the investigation:
Why was the BMV investigating this? Presumably because when you sell a car you pay a tax to the state that is a percentage of the sale price. So, if a dealer sells a car to TP for less than market price, than the state loses out. So long as the prices of the sale are within reason, there is no issue from the state's point of view. The state is not investigating whether these sales were done without co-signors, whether the payments were ever receive, whether the players got sweet deals on trade-ins, whether the players received extended loaners for free or whether the players received free after-market items like rims, sterios, etc. Frankly, if the dealers simply gave these kids cars for free or for a huge discount straight out, I would have been shocked. Nobody - even in Ohio - is that stupid.
That whole list of things that the BMV doesn't care about from the last paragraph - presumably, the NCAA does. If they do their job right, they will not just look at the states selling prices and just move on.
Addressing the same subject as the OP:
BMV investigation found no violations of state law; it did not check for NCAA violations
Bullet dodged... by the dealership.
The school is still, in NCAA lingo, "proper fucked."
It's great to know the BMV is as corrupt as THE Ohio State University. Apparently, in Ohio, the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply when THE Ohio State University is involved. Luckily, TOSU's cheating is so blatant that even their state government can't cover it up, nor can they prevent the scandal that already is and the probation that is around the corner.
But do you want to carefully lay out your case that the state government of Ohio, and particularly the BMV, is corrupt? And that state government is actively trying to cover up some illegality or wrongdoing by the OSU Athletic Department? That's a truly tinfoil hat kind of allegation.
That's a truly tinfoil hat kind of allegation.
That's just what THEY want you to think.
So far, what I learned above, was that the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles operates under the direction of Governor John Kasich, who not only graduated from The Ohio State University in 1974, but he also owns, and has worn, an OSU golf shirt. And that he wore said golf shirt, while playing golf with the President of the United States on or about the morning of Saturday, June 18, in the general vicinity of Andrews Air Force Base. And that upon information and belief, Kasich, acting in his capcity as Chief Executive of the State of Ohio, communicated to the President, as Chief Executive of the United States, Commander in Chief of all U.S. military forces and as the Chief Law Enforcement officer of the nation, the State of Ohio's desire that all available federal resources be brought to bear, to foil the investigation of the National Collegiate Athletic Association.
I think I got that right. Here is a picture of everything, as it happened...
The OSU golf shirt was stolen by Terrell Pryor from the OSU golf team equipment room.
Other than that, I think the rest is accurate.
Your reply makes any question about Columbus officials seem like a farce. Yet, is it really so silly to ask--not whether there was an organized plot or even intentional lying by Columbus officials--but simply to ask if all of them are eager to reveal the full truth?
The Columbus BMV selectively examined only 25 car sales, when they could have gone much further. Why did they not examine the many other sales in question?
We must remember that, at YSU, according to the SI article, Tressel was accused by Isaac of having his "tickets fixed." Presumably, he did so through his influence in some department concerned with motor vehicle regulations enforcement. So, is it really silly to question the objectivity of the Columbus BMV?
allegation was that he called campus parking and had them cancel tickets. That's a bit different than asking a state agency to falsify reports.
Why did the BMV only examine 25 purchases, when over 50 were alleged to have been sold to OSU players/families by one dealer alone?
How were these particluar purchases selected? At random?
If not, one may question the validity of the results.
A failure to find proof of misdoing, in a limited sample, is not the same as providing proof of the absence of misdoing.
Because these were the transactions in which there were questions about the purchase price shown on the title?
To beat this dead horse one more time, this is the only question the BMV was investigating. They have no interest in NCAA regulations.
price matches the title price, which is how things should be. But wasn't Dan the Dealer's big claim that the price on the title was less than the sale price? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the title price of one of the cars $1? If that matches the sale price, then I'm pretty sure you have a serious violation right there.
It was $0.
"In a May 12 interview with the Ohio Inspector General, Kniffin said Jeff Mauk, owner of Jack Maxton Chevrolet, received tickets from Ohio State coaches for giving them cars to drive. Kniffin said that was a common practice, according to the interview included in the BMV report.
It's not like the BMV can lie about this stuff. Heads would roll if the Feds, IRS and NCAA turn up contradictory information to the BMV report over the longer team. OSU and Doug Archie better hope the BMV isn't stacked with a roster of Buckeye homers performing the investigation.
about reports coming out of the Ohio BMV, given the many OSU grads or boosters in this Columbus office. In fact, the head Registrar is an OSU grad (see link).
Also, if players and their families were not getting any "sweetheart" deals, then
why would over 50 of them go far out of their way--sometimes hundreds of miles
--to go to the same unethical, tax-delinquent Columbus dealer, who just happened to be getting free OSU tickets? Why would multiple players--from Clarret to Small to many others--all make the same report--that they were getting cars whenever they wanted them? If there were nothing to these or other allegations, then why did Tressel resign and Pryor leave?
Yes, I realize, it may be hard for some to believe that a public enforcement agency, like the Ohio BMV, could possibly be influenced by OSU. However, they should ask Lloyd Carr about the unbiasedness of Columbus law enforcement: Why was his team once
stopped and publicly searched by law enforcement officials in front of Ohio Stadium---when no other visiting team had been searched? Journalists said it was to "rattle" the team. Tressel said : "I have no knowledge of the search." However, police later admitted they did the search at the bequest of the athletic department.
So, I remain skeptical about the independence of government officials who live in Columbus
and are either alums or boosters of the team.
at thousands of dollars. I find it hard to fathom that the state of Ohio doesn't care one iota about tax receipts for such items that accompany car sales. Something is not being audited right here.
Also, speaking of thousands of dollars of wasted taxpayer funds, just wait until we get to the delicious Ohio State football equipment room audit? No way in hell do the OSU equipment managers keep their job after this debacle.
Oh, Ohio BMV, you thought you could end this breezy summer of joy and discovery so soon, did you? Shame on you.
In a May 12 interview with the Ohio inspector general, Kniffin said Jeff Mauk, owner of Jack Maxton Chevrolet, received tickets from Ohio State coaches for giving them cars to drive. Kniffin said that was a common practice, according to the interview included in the BMV report.
This is the first time I've seen coaches associated with Kniffin or Mauk. It wouldn't take much to find out what games these guys attended and who sponsered the tickets. If any players who were pulled over in dealer cars gave tickets to these guys I don't think it's a stretch to say the tickets were for access to cars which is an NCAA violation. This is speculation of course.
On another note, I had a conversation with an uncle who went to OSU and goes to nearly every home game but doesn't have season tickets. He said "of course players are selling their tickets for extra money, I've bought them." He didn't know (or wouldn't tell me) who the player was but it is a clear violation since he paid for the tickets and has no relationship with the player.
The Ohio BMV is awesome. After I got out of the Army I had to get my license transfered from Texas back to Ohio. The wonderful people at the BMV did not put my motorcycle endorsement on the Ohio License. When I took it back to point out their mistake, I was told that there was nothing they could do. I would have to retake the motorcycle test...
I completely trust these "hardworking" individuals and am sure they throughly investigated the allegations...
I tried to the best of my ability to verify the KBB values included in the report here:
I don't have all the options, etc, but it seems that the Ohio BMV looked up the CURRENT values of these vehicles, not the value at the time of purchase. Also, you can't look up a retail price in "good" condition but it has to be "excellent". If anyone else is good with this site and has the time, please look into this.
I don't want to fan the conspiracy flames, but the report really doesn't seem to be written in an unbiased manner. Just the tone of it seems defensive rather than objective. This may not be over yet!!
I agree about the tone being defensive, and I would expect nothing else. The spokesperson for the BMV is an OSU grad. So is the head of the registry. For OSU to cite this report as an unbiased external justification for dropping its car investigation is a joke.
If I were an NCAA COI member, I would see OSU's idiotic stonewalling as an insult.
This report says its purpose was to determine if the certificates of title accurately reflect the sales prices---a fact that was never at issue except for the one car alleged to have sold for $0.
The report does not make clear conclusions about whether or not OSU players/families paid less than you or I would. It does tangentially note that none of the cases examined showed purchase prices less than or equal to wholesale. However, that could mean that the players/families paid wholesale+$1. Nowhere do I see a list of the actual vehicles sold, the dates, purchase prices, and other valuation-related information.
You need to look at the exhibits. Some things are blacked out but most of the info is there.
I do now see the list of cars, dates and prices. But, as you also noted below, the information provided does not include most of the value-related information that you'd need to compute the car's actual value--eg using a blue or red book.
Like any organization in Ohio would actually be objective when it comes to tsio
The bmv found nothing illegal, but as far as ncaa violations it's still to be determined. (which will most likely be a MAJOR VIOLATION!!!)