Twenty Point Losses
I know fans often say that I'd rather lose by a lot than by a little, but in reality most really don't like being blown out. I had a feeling that the blow-outs were coming more frequently of late, but I wanted to confirm that feeling so I went back 50 years. Here's what I found with regard to the number of 20-point losses experienced by Michigan:
Bump -- 6 (in 10 years)
Bo -- 2 (in 19)
Mo -- 2 (in 5)
Llo -- 3 (in 13)
RR -- 9 (in 3)
Just saying.
January 2nd, 2011 at 8:49 AM ^
OK Chalmers. 85 year olds are getting better at the internet.
January 2nd, 2011 at 8:48 AM ^
It is all Carr's fault, Greg Robinson's fault, the disloyal fans fault, and David Brandon's fault. Also the players failed to execute.
You must be new around here.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:19 AM ^
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:50 AM ^
You’ve been old since your Borat avatar days. We can say the same to you after the CC what ever will you and H-bomb boy do.
January 2nd, 2011 at 1:26 PM ^
I think Hackney and I are the two most misunderstood posters in the MGoCommunity.
It has never, ever been about being pro- or anti-Rodriguez to me. It has always been about the timing of the "CC" discussion. There did not need to be 5 weeks of this crap, of people posting the same thing over and over again. The discussion should have begun last night and people should be firing away with their opinions now and this coming week. Instead, everyone has shot their load (so to speak) and now people are just repeating themselves.
People claim that the fans have nothing to do with Rodriguez's failures and I agree. However, the fans have everything to do with the "CC" discussion - the fans and the media. You don't hear Brandon out there talking about it. The players sure as hell are not doing it. So you hear fans on every form of media and now you're hearing recruits express their apprehension. That is what it has always been about for me, at least. We all could have avoided a miserable last 5 weeks by just having some self-control like Mr. Brandon has shown.
January 2nd, 2011 at 2:10 PM ^
You're right ... we probably should have just held hands with all the Buckeyes fans and sang "Kumbaya."
Get real.
January 3rd, 2011 at 9:57 AM ^
Once again you make no sense. It was about staying out of the demoralizing fray as long as possible until the time came. We could have discussed countless different things, even critiqued Rodriguez's playcalling etc. But no. We had to constantly discuss his firing and hiring whoever else. This blog became a fire/keep Rodriguez blog and it was sickening. That said, I could not physically refrain from reading it all, hoping for a morsel of real information, so I guess that I can only blame myself for being annoyed by it all.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:09 PM ^
I got the joke, anyway.
January 3rd, 2011 at 9:58 AM ^
Couple the "joke" with all of his previous comments and you get a sarcastic and mean-spirited comment. Not funny, at least not to me. Not after the past 5 weeks.
January 2nd, 2011 at 3:27 PM ^
And you also, of course, could have exhibited self-control by not reading and whining about every single CC thread posted during that five week time. It's really your choice whether or not to read this stuff. I certainly have not read the great majority of it.
And I don't want to be rude, but in terms of tiresomeness, I'd say you outdo Nate Volk (who satirized nicely the atmosphere of blame and excuses that sometimes permeates this blog) pretty handily.
January 2nd, 2011 at 8:04 PM ^
Thanks for your opinion. You clearly got the point of the "nuke the CC" posts (which was to be a scourge to the posters that insisted on starting new threads with their own personal opinions, adding no substance to the discussion other than to add their two cents worth).
I don't think I was alone in dropping bombs and purposely responding to annoying threads with annoying responses but I'll take the criticism for the team.
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:31 PM ^
It's the end of an error.
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:54 AM ^
Even pragmatism must yield to idealism from time to time.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:44 AM ^
Mary Sue Coleman.
January 2nd, 2011 at 8:58 AM ^
when Bump and Bo coached, everyone was in the bone and the COMBINED score rarely reached over 30.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:12 AM ^
Played "bo" teams in wisconsinand iowa. Thank god we dont have to play those old big10 teams. We would be destroyed every week and more banged up
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:14 AM ^
I would far rather lose 7-3 than 48-28. Come on dude, a loss is a loss but losing bad is far worse than losing close.
If the last three games the losses were: 31-28, 14-10, 28-24, the tone on this board would be far different.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:24 AM ^
or inclination to go through ever year of the Bo era, but in his first year, the total points scored were in order: 56, 52, 57, 51, 35, 44, 42, 57, 57, 36, 13.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:33 AM ^
In the Bo Era, people called the BigTen the "BigTwo and Little Eight". There is more parity today. That said, we have really stunk lately.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:34 AM ^
Stop using facts to support your ridiculous claims that Bo was better than RR. I prefer to believe that because we were top-10 in total offense (26th in scoring O...which is telling), we will dominate in the future. I choose to ignore the 20-point losses, abysmal D and ST, DC hires that went haywire, overall record, big ten record, our coach's use of Josh Grobin songs at football busts to stump for his job, NCAA violations and the division of the fanbase caused by all of this.
January 2nd, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
Actually the wishbone did not come into vogue until Bo had been at Um for a few years, and long after Bump had gone. In Bump's day the most prevalent formation was the winged T which was much LESS explosive than the wishbone.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:11 AM ^
it wasn't until, I'm not sure what year, but back then rosters were gynormous and teams could take I think almost as much as they wanted. Back then the 'Big Boys' stayed the 'Big Boys' because they had most all of the boys. Coach Mo, then Coach Carr inherited the machinery from Bo; while we didn't win NC's with Bo -not even that many bowls, truth be told- it still was an effective way to manage the team with very good results and Coach Mo and Carr continued the winning ways in the same fashion.
Coach Rod was hired with the understanding he would rebuild the whole thing; it's still a work in progress. The upper tier of the Big Ten meanwhile field teams that have their machinery in place and have some sort of 'reloading' process occurring. We're still rebuilding; I think the 'reloaders' are going to have a better results than the 'rebuilders' any day, and in some cases by 20.
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:08 AM ^
Your right. We are still rebuilding. Unfortunatley we are still in stage 1. You know the one we run dlinemen out late in goal line packages. And the stage where we dont tackle and have no one to take the pitch man on the option play. And the one where a shitty dc doesnt recruit. Ans where the offense cant score for 3 quarters after a month to prepare. Yes this rebuilding stuff sucks! Give me a break. Follow rr to his next job and appologize for him there all you want. Rr is just way over his skis here at UM. Peter principle simple as that. Rr is a good guy in a loosing situation.
January 2nd, 2011 at 11:03 AM ^
Yes we are rebuilding because of what was left for RR to work with. He is definitely NOT in over his head. His teams have played the best competition and beaten the best competition, when he has time to have a real team. You know, a team where he isn't forced to play freshman and sophomores at most positions. He had a huge rebuilding project and still does due to the extreme lack of depth he inherited at this football program.
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
Right...It's all Carr's fault., isn't it? It was totally Carr that lost 32% of defensive commits the last three years (which makes it hard to get that veteran defensive you complain RR was robbed of). It was totally Carr that chose not to re-recruit all of those NFL caliber players that left A2 so as not to play under RR. It was totally Carr that hired two DC considered failures. It was totally Carr that couldn't play with decent competition. We all love the program, but don't forget that RR is not the program, he's a guy who tried his hardest but wasn't able to do it. He doesn't need excuses.
January 2nd, 2011 at 1:27 PM ^
Coach Rod was hired with the understanding he would rebuild the whole thing;
Absolutely untrue. The notion that, in December 2007, anyone at Michigan expected three brutally painful years to follow is pure revisionism, invented by RR fans. The thinking back then was that we had a very solid foundation that just needed some tweeking, and that surely, a successful coach like RR would recognize this. Instead, he blew everything up, thinking that what he did at WVU would automatically translate to success here - and we're paying the price for it now.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:10 AM ^
Can't wait for the back end of this week.
I can’t wait to get back to three phases of football and fundamentals of blocking and TACKLING. I feel bad for the players (defense) they don’t deserve to be a part of the history that has been written. JH or BH or whomever won’t neglect that side of the ball anymore.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:17 AM ^
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:58 AM ^
Profit:
Where are you now on the CC? I must confess that i have officially left the pro-RR ranch as of yesterday's debacle. He had month to prepare, as reasonably healthy of a team as he's had since September and got curb-stomped by a good, but not great, MSU team.
I can't rationalize improvement any longer. I can't see where this is going to get significantly better. I think he's got to go.
I wondered where you are now on the issue.
January 2nd, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
on what you are trying to say....
In that month, were the freshmen supposed to not be freshmen? Was depth supposed to magically appear? Were the kickers supposed to become what they are never going to become?
Mississippi State was the better team and might have been the best team Michigan has played this year. You look at 4 losses and come up with this "not great" conclusion. Did you see who their 4 losses were to. Did you see that they took Arkansas to double OT and held Auburn to 17 points in a 3 point loss? We'll see what happens in the OSU and Arkansas game, but I have a feeling the top of the SEC outclassed the Big 10 this year and Miss State was at or very near that echelon.
January 2nd, 2011 at 11:56 AM ^
I aplogize for any confusioin my obvously ambigious post must've created for you.
To clarify, I was in the pro-RR camp all season but my support waned with the embarrasing losses to Wisky & OSU. I was willing to overlook this, however, IF the bowl game demonstrated any sort of improvement from a month of preparation by our coaching staff. Unfortunately what I (and you) witnessed was even further regression to the mean and a team definitely going backwards in all phases of their development. So now I'm off the Rich bandwagon for good and am joining the ranks of Mgobloggers who want a CC.
Is that clear enough?
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:12 PM ^
and I mean EXACTLY. I was quite upset with the Wisky and OSu end to teh season, but given Illinois and Purdue I was still tentatively willing to let RR have another chance.
Then yesterday happened.
It's not that they lost. It's exactly what you said...they were embarrased, showed signs of regression rather than any progress, and left me wondering if 7-6 is really enough improvement over 5-7 given all that happened in teh wins and losses over the last two years. And now I think the answer is no. I know I know, decimated defense and all...but so many issues yesterday felt like coaching issues to me (I mean really...really, we're still having substitution problems on defense?!?)
I have no doubts RR is a great coach. But sometimes, shit happens. And it's unfair to RR because it wasn't all his fault. But fair or not, it's just not good enough for Michigan.
January 2nd, 2011 at 2:31 PM ^
Seconded. (Thirded?)
January 2nd, 2011 at 2:10 PM ^
In that month, were the freshmen supposed to not be freshmen? Was depth supposed to magically appear?
After three seasons, three spring practices and one bowl preparation, the "All we've got is freshmen" line ceases to be an excuse for the coach. It becomes an indictment of the coach's roster management.
It's clear that RR is a pretty hard-headed person. He has one way of doing things on offense, and one way of doing things on defense. Those who disagree have to adapt to him or leave. Unfortunately for us, a large number of players (and a few assistant coaches) have chosen the latter route, leaving us with that dreadful lack of depth.
Mississippi State was the better team and might have been the best team Michigan has played this year.
Again, that's hardly an argument in RR's favor. Miss State is unlikely to finish the season ranked in the top 15. If we couldn't stay within five touchdiowns of them, just how horribly would a true top 10 have beaten us? And if it's true that the Big Ten is as bad as you suggest, that just makes us look all the worse, given that we had a losing record in Big Ten play. We've seen enough, and so has Brandon.
January 2nd, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
After three seasons, three spring practices and one bowl preparation, the "All we've got is freshmen" line ceases to be an excuse for the coach. It becomes an indictment of the coach's roster management.
probably the most succinct rebuttal of the 'youth' argument.
January 2nd, 2011 at 4:10 PM ^
If you are suggesting that he ran off Donovan Warren, that's one thing, although I would appreciate if you would offer some semblence of proof.
However, I'm not sure how you are going to justify a claim that it's RR's poor roster management that got Woolfolk injured, forced Cissoko (Carr recruit) to turn to a life of crime, or made highly rated prospects like Turner and Emilien fizzle.
The youth argument isn't an excuse. It's a fact.
With all that said............my response was directed at the OP's statement that he was an RR supporter until th Bowl Game because he expected to see some magical turn around after 15 extra practices and his unfounded claim that Miss State wasn't that good. I was not making an argument to keep RR. The debate is exhuasted. Whatever is going to happen will happen in a few days.
January 2nd, 2011 at 5:13 PM ^
I have no proof of anything. W/O knowing the actual conversations b/t RR and any player that may have left or been recruited to M that ended up elsewhere, it's really hard to place blame on any one person for any individual lost player.
In aggregate, however, the simple fact is this: RR has not been able to recruit and/or retain enough talent these 3 years to maintain a successful level of football. Either he's recuiting players that can't make it here due to academics, talent or motivation or he's either not recruiting or not retaining those players that can make it. Either way, that's been the major downfall of the program for 5 years (yes, some of this falls on LC) and ultimately in year 3, it falls on RR's shoulders.
So i agree, the youth argument isn't an excuse. It's a fact. It's a fact that has causes, after 3 years, that fall mostly on the current head coach.
January 3rd, 2011 at 9:23 AM ^
Let's review the recruiting at corner and safety since 2004. Unless otherwise noted, comments are in regards to the 2010 season.
2004
- Keston Cheathem: Transferred to Oregon State in 2005
- Jamar Adams: Went to NFL in 2008
- Charles Stewart: Played LB on RR's 2008 team
2005
- Brandon Harrison: Senior in 2008
- Johnny Sears: Kicked off team in 2007
- Chris Richards: Transferred to Stony Brook in 2007
2006
- Jonas Mouton: Switched to LB under Carr
- Stevie Brown: Switched to LB under RR. Destroyed People. Graduated in 2010.
2007
- Donovan Warren: Went Pro in 2010. Shouldn't have.
- Michael Williams: Season ending injury against Notre Dame
- James Rogers: Played all 12 games at CB
- Artis Chambers: Transferred to Ball State after 2008 season. Does not appear on their roster.
- Troy Woolfolk: Season ending injury in summer training.
2008 (coaching transition, but all Carr recruits)
- Boubacar Cissoko: Kicked off team in 2009.
- Brandon Smith: Transferred to Temple after 2009 season. Does not appear on their roster.
- J.T. Floyd: Season ending injury prior to Illinois
2009
- Justin Turner: Transferred to WVU in August. Does not appear on their roster.
- Vlad Emilien: Left team in September. Vanished in to thin air.
- Mike Jones: Season ending injury against Notre Dame
- Thomas Gordon: RS Freshman
- Adrian Witty: Non Qualifier.
2010
- Demar Dorsey: Non Qualifier
- Josh Furman: DNP. Redshirted
- Marvin Robinson: Played some against OSU
- Cullen Christian: Played in 10 games
- Carvin Johnson: Played in 8 games
- Ray Vinopal: Played in 6 games
- Courtney Avery: Played in 12 games
- Terrence Talbott: Played in 10 games
2011
- Blake Countess
- Dallas Crawford
- Delonte Hollowell
- Greg Brown
There could have been three years of Carr's recruits (10 players) playing on this 2010 team. I'm counting the 2008 commits since they were all Carr guys. Of those 10 players: 1 did not RS and ran out of eligibility (and switched positions), 1 switched to LB, 1 prematurely went Pro, 2 transferred but don't appear on the rosters of the schools they supposedly transferred to, 1 was kicked off the team, 3 had season ending injuries (1 before season, 1 in second game, 1 after 8 games). That's 1 Carr player (upper classman) that made it to the Illinois game.
RR has 4 potential marks against him in his 13 recruits. He should not have gone after Dorsey, even though he was a stud at a position of need. The timing wasn't right for taking that chance. It can be argued that he only recruited Witty to help land Denard. Good move, I say. Turner and Vlad? Arguing that them leaving was some fault of RR's is pure speculation, especially since neither seem to be anywhere at the moment. Transfers happen. As you can see above, they also happened under Carr's regime.
The rest of RR's recruits on the roster? One redshirt, another season ending injury, and 6 true freshmen and 1 RS freshmen who saw the field this year.....
Because it's relevant to the discussion, I also listed the 4 current verbals.
Lack of experience and depth in the backfield was a real issue this year and it's not because of some silly notion that RR can't recruit and/or retain defensive talent. The future is set up nicely for our future coach, whoever that might be.
If you respond again, please offer something more substantial than your disgruntled opinion.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:25 PM ^
I guess freshmen can't be expected to develop and improve after 12 games and 15 extra practices.
January 3rd, 2011 at 9:24 AM ^
Seniors: Woolfolk, Rogers
Juniors: Mike Williams (RS)
Sophomores: Floyd (RS), Kovacs (WO), Emilien
Freshmen: JT Turner (RS), Avery, Talbott, Christian, T. Gordon (RS), Robinson, C. Johnson, Vinopal, Furman (projects at LB)
Recap of events leading to doom:
- Prior to start of season, Woolfolk sustains season ending injury and Turner decides to transfer.
- In first game, Carvin Johnson is injured and misses the next three games. Returns in game 5.
- Prior to second game, Emilien decides to transfer.
- In second game, Williams sustains season ending injury.
- Prior to 8th game, Floyd sustains season ending injury
Michigan was down to two players with prior season game experience by Illinois, one a former walk on. We played seven freshmen (6 true freshmen) in the defensive backfield over the course of the season.
With some consistency and upper classmen leadership on and off the field, it is a fair expectation to expect 1 or 2 guys with no game experience to improve. However, expecting a group of 7 freshmen to contribute at this level and under the conditions that they were subjected to is asinine.
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:40 PM ^
Honestly, I'm just exhausted. Simple as that. I am numb to it all and am almost indifferent as to which direction things go. The "Fire Rodriguez" rhetoric has worn on me and I'm sick of hearing about it. If a change will shut everyone up, then lets get it over with. Especially since if Brandon keeps Rodriguez the critics are going to be out in force, even more so than this year.
All I have to say is that Brandon better (a) choose wisely, and (b) be prepared for nuclear fallout if he makes a change and the next coach does not perform immediately. I'm not waiting another 2-3 years for "improvement." Personally, I'm no fan of Harbaugh but I don't see anyone else better out there unless Urban Meyer or Bill Cowher somehow show up at Brandon's doorstep.
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:17 AM ^
the team about his possibly getting fired, and emotionally told them it was out of his control.
This must have demoralized the team, and they sure played that way:
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:37 PM ^
Oftentimes, when a coach is under the gun, the team rallies. Didn't happen this time. I'm sure many or most players like RR, but...
January 2nd, 2011 at 9:18 AM ^
Note to OP: I did NOT steal your post idea, but I posted almost the exact same thing on Stadium and Main (Scout's free board), so if you read that board please don't think I swiped your post. Just one of those weird instances where people think of the same thing at the same time (e.g. Newton and Leibniz).
January 2nd, 2011 at 10:22 AM ^
January 2nd, 2011 at 12:32 PM ^
RR was in his third year but using a ton of true freshmen. All that means is that his recruiting tanked in the previous two years. Stop apologizing.
January 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 PM ^
January 2nd, 2011 at 1:12 PM ^
to click on this thread.