The folks at Hardwood Paroxym assess Trey Burke's impact on the Jazz - the summary? Burke's play has improved the offensive efficiency of a couple of the Jazz's young players, enough so that the Jazz have gone from worrying about setting the all-time loss record when Burke was hurt to feeling good about their future...
Trey Burke's Impact on the Jazz
Trey Burke's Impact on the Wolverines.
We miss him bad.
They miss him bad.
I was expecting some charts. This is mgoblog after all!
He is basically the Charles Woodson of our Basketball program. He single handidly raised a team to national championship caliber and without him the team took a major step back.
Uh what? After Chuck left we went 7-1 in the Big Ten, beat Arkansas in the Citrus Bowl and finished Top-15. A year later we went 6-2, beat Bama in the Orange Bowl, and finished Top 5.
I love Woodson, but Trey had a bigger impact on the team, if only because basketball has less teammates
facts just suck.
After Woodson left we got this guy named Tom Brady as our QB........
First, Michigan football was a top national team before Woodson stepped foot on campus. It wasn't decades of futility like the BBall program.
Second, the Michigan football program didn't take a major step back after he left, but continued to have top national teams.
Third, the book isn't written on how UM hoops will do after Burke. Jump the gun much?
You're an idiot.
All he was doing was like, giving his opinion man....
Nobody comes here for name calling. We are all brothers in Michigan fandom
It's hard totally sometimes. Lots of self loathing.
It wasn't decades of futility like the BBall program.
It was one decade - not decades- of futility. Specifically, it was 1998-2008. We went to the national title game in the 1960s, '70s, '80s and '90s, and have continued the tradition in the '10s.
Anyhow, Burke was fantastic but to say that he single-handedly made us a national-title contender isn't quite fair to his teammates. Trey actually had a few rough games in the tournament, particularly South Dakota State and Syracuse. The tourney run was a team effort in every way - every game, different players stepped up.
Ah yes, because 10-3, 10-2, then 9-3 were clear signs of a decline attributable only to Woodson.
Woodson was a great player, but Burke took a team that struggled to make the tournament most years, if they made it at all, to the championship game. I do think guys like GRIII, Nik, McGary, etc. also deserve lots of credit, but Burke had by far the biggest impace on this team's success.
My neighbor is a die-hard Kansas fan and everytime he talks shit about ANY of my teams, I just reply "Trey Burke" and he shuts right up.
This may be my most memorable sporting event ever attended. The UM crowd in my section never lost hope that we were gonna come back. I will never forget "the shot", or the way the Kansas fans went from high-fiving each other with 2 mins left, to facepalms 1:59 later.
I was only comparing it to the drop from 1997 to 1998. Not 1999 and 2000. When they lost the first two games of the season and Lloyd Carr when asked about it said that the difference was Woodson. Considering in 1998 they kept a very similar roster to 1997.
One of the things that the article talks about using stats is something that we all remember from his time here - Trey Burke makes the guys around him that much better. Indeed, Burke already is responsible for about 10% of the scoring for the Jazz and about one-seventh of the assists. That seems a significant contribution already in itself, and he just got to the NBA. Being able to simply play as he does and energize a team is an amazing trait, and it makes the future of the Jazz with Burke pretty bright, I would think.
Great article. Thanks for sharing that.
Get inside and let your fingers warm up. Thia isn't making sense.
It's OK to be on my lawn. I can't even see my grass.
f#$% you joe dumars!
And while I'm posting -- great to see Burke be the spark plug at the pro level that he was at Michigan.
Thia doesn't make sense but Fuck You Joe Dumars does.
As I've always said, I love what Burke did for UM and think he'll be a fine pro, but the ancillary Pistons and Dumars bashing needs to stop. As noted in that same article, Burke has made some players better while others have not, likely due to a combination of spacing and situational issues (Kanter) or bad luck (Hayward). But that would have probably happened on the Pistons as well, and let's not forget Utah was trotting out Jamaal Tinsley for minutes, which was criminal 3 years ago and is just insane now.
Nobody around here is complaining about the Kings taking McLemore, for example, or the Bobcats taking Zeller. Detroit had a PG that they were either going to trade for an established NBA player or use KCP as an asset in some other trade. They made the moves they thought were best, and despite all of the integration issues are doing okay in the East. It isn't a perfect team, but I don't think they'd be much better with Burke, and I'm still not sold Burke will ever be more than an above-average guard in the league. He still struggles on defense, and his shooting hasn't been sustainably good - advanced stats or not, 39% FG and 33% on 3's aren't good enough over a full season. He shoots a great deal and is integral to Utah's offense, but he's not going to continue to play if he doesn't improve on those numbers, which may be hard given his game and physical limitations.
It is really neat to discover that Joe Dumars posts here, but what does Joe D have to do with the Bronx? Odd username for an NBA GM.
Seriously though, people arent complaining about McLemore or Zellar because most people on this board are Detroit sports fans, and are not concerned with the Charlotte Bobcats. They are concerned with the Pistons.
Surely you can understand how Detroit fans may be perturbed that their GM did not select the National Player of the Year from a nearby school, that these fans happen to already like. That feeling is furthered when the guy that was picked ahead of Trey is not wowing anyone by any stretch, while Burke is looking like a rookie of the year frontrunner.
Maybe Trey wouldnt have made all of the other Pistons better players, but its entirely plausible that he could have made some better too. To dismiss him because he hasnt elevated each and every Jazz player is plain silly.
The statement that is most ludicrous is "he's not going to continue to play if he doesn't improve on those numbers". Really? If Trey doesnt up his field goal %, the Jazz are going to go ahead and bench him? Come on. The Jazz were 1-12 without him. They are 10-13 with him. The only reason they would cut his minutes would be to tank for the lottery. He may not be a perfect player, but I think that the differences in the Jazz' fortunes with and without him show that Trey Burke is a very adequate NBA starting point guard. Maybe he wont be more than "above average". But from the looks of it, KCP is probably not going to ever get to "average".
That record difference with and without Burke is incredible. Put the Jazz in the East and by the end of the season they'd probably be a playoff team.
They are definitely playing better with Burke, though I'm guessing playing anyone other than Jamaal Tinsley and John Lucas III probably would have helped the Jazz's record as well. That said, the West is so good that I'd take all but 4 teams in the East over anyone in that conference save Sacramento.
Hilarious take; definitely haven't heard that one before.
My point remains that there is a small subset of the MGoBlog base that loves to follow whatever Brian says, and while I think he is incredibly knowledgeable about most things UM sports-related, there are instances where his personal bias bleeds through to a degree that people adopt it without question.
I think Trey Burke has played very well so far, and he looks like one of the better pickups in the draft. But he would not have been as good a fit in Detroit with that team in my opinion, at least once Smith came in and the team needed to either stick with Knight or move him. You draft Burke, it leaves you with an extra guard and fewer trade assets. It was the right move with the team Dumars had and how he needed to mold it.
When I said that the Burke isn't going to keep playing with his numbers, I mean long-term. Yes, on a Jazz team that probably isn't against a high draft pick, he'll keep playing. But there are no PGs in the league who shoot as poorly as Burke has who play his minutes without bringing lots of other elements to his game, and while Burke is a fine passer he's an average defender at best and, given his physical limitations, probably won't get much better.
As for KCP, he's not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Yes, he's not a high-volume scorer, but he isn't asked to do that. He is a very good wing defender, something this team needs, and in college he showed a great ability to score so I trust that skill is still there (witness going 7-11 against Washington in the last game). You say that I am being presumptuous to dismiss Burke as being nothing more than an above-average player in the NBA going forward, yet you are deciding that KCP is never going to approach average based on the same "flimsy" criteria. And I'm simply pointing out that the OP linked to an article noting that not all players have benefitted statistically from Burke's insertion to the lineup; considering the premise of this post was that Burke was making the Jazz better it is fine evidence to point out he isn't a rising tide for all players.
I think Burke will be a very good scoring PG and has made the Jazz better in his limited run in the lineup; that said, he's not an elite shooter or athlete, and his game is based on a physical, in-the-lane style that works for some but tends to wear guys down not named Iverson. Maybe Burke will defy the odds and play great, but lots of NBA scouts thought he was a good guard in a very poor draft, and have pointed out the same concerns and limitations I've stated above. Brandon Jennings' rookie numbers match up similarly to Burke's, and all I hear around these parts is that Jennings is an overrated player who isn't half the one Burke will be after 4 years. I think Jennings is an above-average NBA PG, and so maybe that's Burke's ceiling. It will mean he is a rich man who gets to play the game he loves, but he's not a perpetual All Star and All-NBA. But if I'm Joe Dumars, which again I'm totally not. Seriously. I'm not. I'd have drafted KCP and hope he develops into a dominant wing defender and competent scorer; a better version of Tayshaun Prince, a key cog in one of the better runs in Pistons history, and try to sign a good PG via FA or trade. Dumars did, and while this team has struggled somewhat I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have been better with a rookie PG fighting for minutes and shots.
Again, this feels like a dumb argument, and probably more directed at the hive mind this place can take on at points. I loved what Burke did at UM and want him to succeed in the NBA. But I'm not going to accept the premise that everything he does is magic and makes teams better, and that anyone who passed on him will feel like Portland in a couple of years when he becomes the next Jordan-esque NBA figure.
If people really cared about the Pistons passing up on a quality player, they'd be pissed the Pistons didn't take MCW at 9 when he was available but his name is never mentioned. I love Trey Burke but no one would be bitching if he weren't a fomer Wolverine. If Trey Burke leads the Jazz to a 3peat and KCP is out of the league in 3 years, I'll get anger and vitrol but it's pretty annoying that every thread on Trey Burke, probably my favorite Michigan athlete I've had the opportunity to closely watch, devolves into this slap fight.
It's possible for Trey Burke to be a great player and not fit into what the Pistons want to build around (Drummond and Monroe).
Maybe the Pistons decided they wanted to build around shooting guards that shoot 37% and average 7 points a game. NBA title here we come!
BTW I highly doubt anyone would be complaining even a little bit if MCW had been the PIstons pick. The problem isn't that the PIstons passed up Burke. The problem is the Pistons passed up Burke for a shooting guard that can't shoot. Or pass. Or rebound.
He's the 5th option after Jennings (high volume shooter), Smith (needs the ball a lot), Drummond and Monroe who are good big bodies down low who can really attack opposing players in the post and have their way (especially Drummond). They'd be crazy to not get the bal down to those 2 as often as possible.
He's not expected to be the scorer on this team. His shooting will come around and he plays lockdown D. That's what he was brought in to do and he's doing it just fine. He was not drafted expected to be the main scorer on this team. His offensive game needs work but I think he'll fine.
I really wonder if the complainers are Pistons' fans or just people pissed that they couldn't get a Trey Burke Pistons jersey. Drafting KCP wasn't a bad or wrong move (as of now). Maybe I'm wrong who knows but why can't people just be happy with what the Pistons have? Does every Burke thread have to devolve into a Joe Dumars bitchfest?
The Pistons needed permiter defense help and they got it in KCP. If the Pistons have Trey Burke drafted they have severely hampered themselves in attempting to trade Brandon Knight.
I love Burke as much as anybody but this is getting ridiculous.
He was the 8th pick in the freakin draft. Why the hell is he the 5th option in the offense on a team that isn't any good? If he was any good, they would be going to him as more than an afterthought. You might have an argument if the PIstons were actuallly a good team, but they aren't.
How many future superstars started out as the 5th option on offense on bad teams? I'm going to guess the answer is somewhere around zero. Future superstars assert themselves pretty much right away. KCP is never going to be more than a role player, which is pretty sad for the 8th pick in a draft when guys going after him are lighting it up.
His main skill was supposed to be that he could shoot, and he can't even do that. He clearly can't do anything else. The idea that the Pistons drafted him for defense is so comical that I can't believe people actually try to use it as an argument.
If you use the 8th pick in the draft to try and get a rookie-year go-to scorerer, you're doing it wrong. Other 8th picks of this millenium:
2012: Terrence Ross
2011: Brandon Knight
2010: Al-Farouq Aminu
2009: Jordan Hill
2008: Joe Alexander
2007: Brandan Wright
2006: Rudy Gay
2005: Channing Frye
2004: Rafael Araujo
2003: TJ Ford
2002: Chris Wilcox
2001: Sagana Diop
2000: Jamal Crawford
There are two players on this list who remotely qualified at any points in their career: Rudy Gay, who just made the Raptors better by not playing for them anymore, and Jamal Crawford (bless his heart) who's entirely one-dimensional. Realistically, you want an 8th pick to be a solid rotation player, which both Burke and KCP definitely have the potential to be.
Absolutely. I was going to post this same list. Rudy Gay, Crawford, and Ford were the only three guys who showed much offensive scoring consistently early on, and some of those guys (Alexander, Araujo) didn't even play much in the NBA.
But at this point, it isn't worth arguing around here.
Based on, what, 40~ games? KCP is a much better defender than Burke right now, and some of his peripheral numbers would probably be better with a higher volume. He's not a bad shooter; he just doesn't do much of it because of the game he is being asked to play. Hell, he just went 7/11 for 17 points against Washington, and those 11 attempts were more than he was asked to shoot in the preious 3-4 games combined. I'm not a KCP apologist or anything, but the presumption that Burke is on a rocket to superstardom and KCP is a bust after less than half a season is asinine.
I love Trey Burke but no one would be bitching if he weren't a fomer Wolverine.
But he is one, and that's the whole point. I will cheer for any team Trey is on. It would have been really cool if the Pistons had drafted him - they would have won me back as a fan. But they passed, and frankly now I'm more interested in watching the Jazz than the Pistons.
That's great for you, then. But just because he is someone you like watching doesn't mean not drafting him was a failure by Joe Dumars in creating a winning program in Detroit.
Can't wait to see Trey play at the Palace on the 17th
I'm actually going to be in Salt Lake City for a conference March 22-26. Happenned to look at the schedule and the Pistons are playing @ Utah 3/22! Def going to get some tix to cheer on Trey and rock my Michigan #3 jersey while there!
Will be wearing Trey U of M jerseys not pistons.
I will be forever upset that they did not draft him.
They got Reggie Miller and the Jazz got Steve Alford, remember?
So glad to see him doing well, I was worried after his play in the summer league!
I keep hearing the lame Bill Simmons wanna be argument that the Pistons had a point guard already.
Who that was worth a damn?
They haven't had a decent one since Chauncey.
If anything they had too many shooting guards, so it made total sense to draft another. Jeez the NBA is pure garbage if doing what Dumars did was considered a sound move.