Pat White would have helped in 2007.
alternate headline: man does job
Pat White would have helped in 2007.
you mean 08?
Yes. I'm an idiot that just finished a really long day.
but what of the Shav Beaver?
Munchie the Beaver?
Ted Ginn wanted to come to U-M as well.
Uh, Terrelle Pryor?
EDIT: Everybody has a few misses recruiting. Even USC, Florida, Texas etc.
I made it this far but can go no further. Yes, if we recruited better we probably would have won more often. But if our team was in better physical shape in the latter Carr years we probably would have won more too. And if Mike Debord was not the O Coordinator we probably would have won more.
Mike DeBord was not the reason Ohio State scored 37 points on Michigan in 2004.
Nor was he the reason Henne, Hart and Long were all injured in 2005.
He was a part of the reason why Michigan began the 2006 season 11-0.
He had little to do with the fact that Johnny Sears started against App. St.
His offense did not give up 34 points to App. St. Nor did it give up 39 to Oregon, nor 37 to Wisconsin.
He was not the cause of Henne and Hart's constant injuries in 2007.
However, his offense did cause Tim Tebow to suffer his only loss in a bowl game.
What selective criticism. DeBord coordinated a national championship winning offense, had Braylon, Marquise, Terrell, Henson (who put up 38 on Ohio State), Brady, Perry, Hart, Henne, Long, Avant, Breaston. Not goodt enough for you?
DeBord had his share of problems, but I think they're vastly exaggerated
I agree that Mike Debord does not deserve a lot of blame. Couple things though.
While his offense didn't give up 39 to Oregon, it did only put up 7 against Oregon and obviously wasn't doing the defense many favors that game. Seemed like we had no idea what to do with the ball once we got into the red zone that entire first half. While his offense didn't give up 34 nor have Johnny Sears, it did only put up 32 against a D-1AA opponent.
Debord did coordinate some great offenses and players, minus Braylon, Perry, Avant, and the first 2 years of Hart, Henne, Breaston, and Longs careers, that was all Terry Malone. Deboard left after the 2001 season to coach at CMU, then came back for the 2006 season after it was obvious Malone couldn't manage a offense where the starting RB and half the offensive line was injured almost the entire season in 2005. If you ask me, Malone got a raw deal.
is tied up with the LLoyd philosophy of tell em what your going to do and then out execute them, and then go absolutely into a shell in the 4th quarter if you are leading.
The switch to the zone stretch, while it had some initial success, stalled when teams figured out that by slanting hard to the play side they could blow up most plays (Hart mitigated some of that with his ability to turn negative into positive). I think he will be most remembered for the run, run, pass 3 yards short of the sticks, punt philosophy that seemed all too common when M had fourth quarter leads. He only seemed to open things up only when M trailing.
Yes, crappy crappy nepotastic O-line coaching, and yes injuries to Henne and Hart and Long at various times limited the offensive execution, but the criticism of the unwillingness to adapt and to use deception at all, especially after we saw what he was capable of doing most notably against OSU in 2006 and Florida in the curtain call, heightens the frustration. Its not that he was clueless, its that he squandered a lot of talent. That is why so many were so jazzed for the RR era to begin. His WV teams stepped on the throats of opponents and did not sit back with leads.
So, yes the things you point out about blame laying elsewhere, and the successes that Debord had are undeniable, you cannot look at those in isolation.
Where Mike Hart was banged up from the previous week (where he only played about half the game), and Henne got injured before halftime (when we were still close)? People whine about that game incessantly on this board, but if we had been healthy, and not recovering from the worst week Michigan Football was ever subjected to, that was looking to be a shootout game, much like the Florida game. While the defense wasn't good, that was also probably the best team in the country, and was going to play for the National Title if their shoulda-won-the-Heisman QB hadn't gotten hurt.
You second point I agree with much more. I always liked Malone as coordinator, liked his offenses. When the great MUST MAKE CHANGES happened, the defense had been lackluster for awhile...the offense looked bad for one season after the worst string of O-line injuries I have ever seen. Beyond just offense, I think it screwed us in that Malone was probably the best candidate on staff to groom for the head job. Coordinator, been around awhile, a few more years at the right hand side, and we probably could have transitioned to him. Because as much as Lloyd may or may not have wanted it, DeBord was NEVER going to happen. And didn't. (English might have had a shot if Lloyd had coached 3-4 more years; but we might not have been good enough for him to have a shot if Lloyd had coached that long beyond his interest point, because we would have been bad because of it). But hey, Terry got a Super Bowl ring out of it, so, no tears.
"People whine about that game incessantly on this board, but if we had been healthy, and not recovering from the worst week Michigan Football was ever subjected to, that was looking to be a shootout game, much like the Florida game.'
I believe we had 7 points at halftime. At no point did that look like a shootout.
My original point on "if we had been healthy" wasn't really contradicted by our offensive output at the half because we weren't healthy going into the game *Hart was hurt game one, and not healthy till the bowl)....but looking back, they scored a lot more in the first half than I remembered. We'd have had to come out smoking, which wasn't going to happen. I'll mea culpa that....must have blacked most of it out...
You make a few good points, but damn it was annoying watching us go "three and out" so many damn times his second time around. I felt like the defernse never had a chance to rest. At least that's the way it felt and how my fuzzy memory feels about it. Thank God for fuzzy memory, because I can't even remember Terry Malone's name until someone brings it up.
No disrespect, but this is a terrible thread. Haven't we been through enough?
Justin King could have potentially changed the course of UM history. He put the locks down on Ginn in the 06 OSU/PSU game. If he had come to Michigan and played opposite Leon Hall, and been there to matchup with Ginn in the 06 game instead of Trent...
That's actually a really depressing "what if."
but if lloyd just takes ginn in spite of his camp performance, we wouldn't have had to deal with him. if you remember he had that PR for TD in '04 as well.
both of those guys wanted to come to UM and we flat out messed up in both cases.
Add future Glenville recruits to the Ginn situation and that is one huge mistake.
On the flip side, Mario lighted him up like a Christmas tree in 2005...we probably wouldn't have won that game without Justin King (playing for PSU)
So someone better than King would have been on Mario then? Its not like King had bad coverage on Mario on the one long td, it was just a perfectly thrown ball and route. King probably would have helped us greatly vs OSU in 2005 too, you think OSU marches down the field as easily vs our defense 2 straight times with King on Santonio or Ginn.
he never ended up getting the job
Would have helped.
Did we even offer him? seems like he was a 3* sleeper according to rivals. His offers were from: State, Minessota, Cincinnati, Air Force and a couple of MAC schools.
He was extremely interested in Michigan, to say the least.
was committed to Minnesota until the Geauxfurs fired Glen Mason.
ROAR FIGHT WIN.
Nope, old UM staff didn't like him. He would've committed on the spot if they had offered. He's the type of "sleeper" recruit our current staff loves. He's undersized, but he's just a "football player."
Chris Graham didn't start in 2006. It was Crable, Harris and Burgess.
And Joe Haden, would have loved either.
Taylor Mays would have filled a huge void at the safety spot and made our corners better simply because he would have been roaming the D backfield.
Granted he got a little lazy late in his careeer what he would have brought to the table in terms of talent and intimidation would have been greatly welcomed.
Recruiting wise as well big time safeties would have probably wanted to be the next Taylor Mays at Michigan.
Tim Tebow. We would have hit the ground running in 2008.
kind of... Lloyd wouldn't have left with Tebow as a Junior.
Terrelle Pryor. Most devastating "miss" in the program's history. I put miss in quotation marks because we never really had a shot at him. But if he had committed to Michigan it would have changed the course of history.
...I think I must admit that subtracting Terrelle from OSU, and adding him to UM, probably would have caused a pretty big shift in outcomes. In fact, probably bigger than any other recruit.
before signing with LSU. He was an integral part of the dominating LSU defense in 2003, the year they won the first NC for Nick Satan. If he had committed to Michigan, he might have made the difference in close losses during the regular season to Iowa and Oregon, and he would have enabled us to put more pressure on Matt Leinart in the Rose Bowl after that season.
Marquise Hill admitted after the fact that he never really had any interest in Michigan...just kept up the charade to mess with people because he thought it was fun. Not a Michigan Man.
Would look awfully good on the D line right about now.
This: More true than most realize. Wow, it would have been nice to have him playing QB in 2008.
Antonio Bass is the man. Sad injury, he could have been a great QB for us earlier in the process.
The Daily had an article about him earlier this year. I think he went on to graduate from LSA.
Curse all renegade knees, all of them.
Bass would've been a monster.
Joseph Barksdale would have looked good on our d-line next to Martin... think of the quality depth at DT.
UM should have never let him set foot outside of the state of Michigan.
he was going to UM, people need to get off of this. it was either MSU or alabama
He wasn't a top recruit anyhow. It's not like everyone wanted him. Besides, he had significant connections with Saban. And honestly, while he did win a Heisman trophy, he might not be the best back on his team.
I was thinking Jelani Jenkins. It wouldn't have made a huge difference probably last year, but he's probably be able to jump in this fall and start at a position we need.
I DON'T want him, because he defeated our very own Iris Macadangdang....
OR excited by the thought that we could have had the #1 vs. #2 all Michigan Final....
Vernon Gholston, and I don't really care if he was a bust in the NFL. He spent much of his time making Henne eat turf in the 2007 game. And terrorizing other QBs round the Big 10. Even LSU was feeling his rage in the title game that year.
Justin King was a major, major loss. BCS bowl teams don't have major weaknesses like Trent in '06 - they just don't. Ted Ginn could've given us another elite vertical threat in 2004-2006 alongside Steve Breaston, but that would and should've been a non-issue if Bass hadn't been cursed with that injury. And, you know, Manningham was more than capable. Hell, Ginn could've played corner here.
Brian Cushing made Henne (Henne, you poor bastard) eat turf in the '06 Rose Bowl to the tune of a defensive MVP bowl award. So, I would've preferred him on our sidelines.
Any offensive coordinator that could've competently replaced Michael DeBord. Run the ball run run run run play action run run run run run run
This is depressing so I'm going to stop.
Uh, didn't DeBord help lead Michigan to a freaking national title in 1997? And, didn't he help the team jump to a 11-0 record in 2006?
Yeah, other OCs might have been more flashy, but he, Loeffler, Campbell and Jackson had an awesome record of developing high quality talent. Lest you forget Henne, Hart, Manningham and Arrington.
But he was the OC during the two most enjoyable Michigan football years since I turned 18, so reading the post-hoc criticisms is just a little bit much. Yes, he was conservative. Michigan still won at an amazing clip during his tenure. Why poop all over that?
leading CMU to a laughing stock in the MAC. I was there when they played Marshall with Moss. He had 3 td grabs, but if he could actually catch the ball that day he could have had 7. Yes SEVEN. He dropped 4 wide open passes that all would have been for 60 or more yards. Yes that would be his fault. Head Coach and all.
Well, by the time Mike Debord even made it to Central Michigan, Randy Moss was a three-time Pro Bowler for the Vikings.
Also, I mean, come on, I know you want to criticize Debord, but can we acknowledge the fact that Randy Moss was a BCS-level talent (committed to ND and FSU, if I remember correctly, before various problems ended up in his scholarships being withdrawn) who ended up in the MAC? I don't think many people in his league were covering him very well/at all that year.
But go kicked out due to arrests.
But yeah, there's no way a 6'4" 220 lb beast that runs a 4.3 and has ridiculous hands just "slips through the cracks" to Marshall
"Uh, didn't DeBord help lead Michigan to a freaking national title in 1997"
Well, no, the defense did most of the leading. Still, I credit him for doing a fine job... in 1997. In 2006, his goal was to make Hart's legs fall off, and Hart did eventually leave here with more than a degree - he broke records. But it came at the expense of one Chad Henne.
Henne should have been a superstar here, not throw for a declining amount of TDs each year. The pass game should have been a bigger threat- when Northwestern can spend the whole day stacking eight in the box and hold you to a 28-16 final score ('07) when Ohio State did the only logical thing against them that same season: attack the weak secondary and blow them out.
On that chart someone made (I forgot who) discussing the average yards/ game offensively for BCS teams (2006) UM lagged dearly with I think, around 300 yards or so. The point of the damn offense is not to "chew clock". It's the freaking 21st century. Get the backups on the field by late in the 3rd quarter against weak teams. Protect your starters. Develop depth.
Are we talking about the '07 Michigan team where Chad Henne spent a large portion of the time playing (or not playing) with a bum knee and a bum throwing shoulder?
Yep, Henne should have thrown for 50 touchdowns that year.
P.S. That's sarcasm.
When he was healthy, though, the strategy seemed to remain the same. With the exception of the Florida game. Remember the MSU game, when we went up 14-3 and decided to sit on that lead instead of trying to extend it? The result was Henne staying in a funk until the pressure was on.
They dropped him back into the shotgun and - surprise - with time to throw, he made them look stupid again.
Look, all I'm really saying is why did DeBord get so happy to sit on 7 and 10 point leads and make a weak '07 defense shoulder the load?
That and the kid is a real good player for Ohio State, I would like him on the team connection or not.
It makes me sick watching the Capital One Bowl with him in the Maize and Blue
If you're gonna envy OSU for one of their players, at least admit that you wanted Terrelle Pryor. Let's face it - a QB is much more valuable than a single OL. Especially considering our OL has gelled pretty decently in the past two years, whereas we've struggled with QB play (aside from Tate's first five games).
When Will Campbell flattens him on the way to a bone-crushing hit on Saine in November. You just watch.
Ted Ginn. It's not even close. If we offer him and get him then the Glennville pipeline to OSU maybe doesn't exist.
I don't mean this as a slight against John Navarre; he was put in a difficult situation when Henson left and did his best for four years. But if Michigan had had a top-flite QB between 2001 and 2003, there might be more hardware in the case at Schembechler Hall.
Jai Eugene. Knock-on effect would have been "les" animosity between Carr and Miles over his eventual yoink. Of course that is speculative.
Pretty sure we weren't in the running for him, but having Eric Berry the last few years would have been great for that secondary. Maybe we could have avoided The Horror.
I don't know if he was a scholarship athlete, but Brett Swenson would have been useful last year.
Olesnavage's missed FG and PAT against Purdue likely cost Michigan bowl eligibility.
So, you think it's worthless not having a scholarship placekicker on the roster who can contribute? Obviously RR thought the same, that's why he brought in Gibbons but had to redshirt him for whatever reason.
But yeah, if you look at the Purdue game, had Olesnavage hit the PAT in the third quarter, the worst that would have happened at the end was that Michigan would've tied the game and gone to OT.
I don't know why but I got a kick out of you guys going after each other over Mike DeBord and Jason Olesnavage
That's all I'm going to say before I get negged into oblivion.
Super sad face :(:(:(:(:(:(
Having a Rhodes Scholar on the team would have certainly helped our image.
I'm wondering if Dillon Baxtor will one day be in a similar thread
As long as he gets to wear the Iron uni...
Here are some of my thoughts:
That's not why Rojo went to USC.
nick perry wasn't really a loss as he was leaning more towards state than UM.
ted ginn should've been taken just based on his athleticism.
bass wouldn't have played QB for us even if he had been healthy so thats moot.
forcier left because he was promised the offense would be tweaked to fit his skills and it wasn't, on top of that mallett was immediately made the backup over him as a true frosh.
I know it's kind of your style to make statements like "bass wouldn't have played QB for us even if he had been healthy so thats moot" without explaining, but care to explain?
he was a 40% passer in HS and really didn't have the arm strength to be a college QB. he was a great athlete but not a good enough athlete to overcome his lack of arm strength
Was it similar to a Denard (at least last year, crossing my fingers for this year) situation, then?
would have been worse. there just wasn't enough arm strength for bass to be a good enough threat to play QB
Matt Leinart - We came in second behind USC and instead took Navarre. Navarre had a great 2003 season, but I think Leinart would have taken us to a whole other level.
Desean Jackson - Savoy took his spot, Jackson really wanted to be a wolverine.
Ginn - Didn't look good at DB at the UM camp, so Carr didn't offer.
I think Tim Tebow has to be the answer here. Not only would he have been a good player in Rodriguez's offense, but he probably would have positively affected a lot of the "image issues" that Rodriguez has suffered from critics.
By the way, all that '06 crap about having Justin King instead of Morgan Trent is revisionist history. USC was just flat-out better than Michigan, and still would have been better if King was a Wolverine or not. Leon Hall was a better cornerback than Justin King, and Leon Hall got beat by Matt Leinart and Co. USC was a juggernaut. One player would most likely not have changed that outcome.
and beat ohio state, we wouldn't have been playing USC. that's probably the least revisionist history of all of these. in the 4th quarter against ohio st, the buckeyes went almost exclusively at trent to score the game sealing TD. king showed earlier in the season that he could lock down ted ginn, he likely would've at least done something similar and almost certainly would've performed better than trent did.
Although I think a large part of the success of the scheme employed in that game was the element of surprise. Florida prepared for one team and philosophy, but got a very different one. If Michigan had employed that kind of open gameplan on a regular basis, it would have been something Florida was more prepared to deal with.
Plus, it was also probably the only big game that year where all the important components were actually healthy at the same time.
Not to state the obvious or anything.
Also, Nick Perry (imagine him lining up opposite Graham), Ronald Johnson.
Don't really remember how much Michigan interest he had, but he was a highly regarded recruit from OLSM.
Michigan was hot on his trail (he gave the coaches a silent commitment at one point), but FSU was always right there, and took him in the end.
He's been a huge disappointment for them.