Only Oline and QB haven't had decent development.
Tom VH: Shaun Crawford to visit Miami (YTM)
We haven't gotten an consistent pressure since Martin and Van Bergen.
The dline has had depth and youth issues like the Oline but less noticeable.
This season should tell us everything we need to know in terms of development. The interior dline will be inexperienced, but we'll have a rotation. The ends should be much more reliable this year.
I'm watching the IU vs U-M game right now and I'd argue the RB's, TE's, OL, DL, LB's and Safeties haven't exactly been great. Player development has been awful for a decade now. This isn't just an isolated "QB's and OL" problem.
Without a line. The only true TE in the roster last year was Butt, a true freshman. And I think a lot of linebackers struggled against IU's spread
Don't forget CBs. There were some abominations there last year. Countess and Taylor have arguably gotten worse.
There goes the season.
He should stay committed... With the db's and safeties coming in were headed towards total backfield domination! Though he was a big part of that excitement! Let him look...
DG will be early season Heisman candidate.
We're going to finish 11-1...
Then they will come!
Stay the course! Go Blue!
I have no problem with guys taking their time and making sure of where they want to go. Just like Hand took his time. However I don't understand the rush to commit if you’re not sure. I would hope someone in a recruit's camp would tell them to commit when they're sure. If all these schools want you they are willing to wait at least until the end of summer before your senior year.
You must laugh all the time.
Do you know who is from Idaho?
Ha. Have you ever driven a turbo Saab?
I do wish people around here stopped looking for excuse or proof of "negative recruiting" as the reason behind kids not being 100% for Michigan. For one, lots of kids waver in their recruiting because we are talking about 16- and 17-year-old young men, and kids at that age are prone to making inconsistent decisions all the time. It's part of growing up, and just because a bunch of people on message boards get bent out of shape because of it doesn't mean you shouldn't expect it to happen.
Secondly, you don't need to dig too deep to find "negative recruiting" facts. 7-6 following 8-5, losing 5-6 to MSU and, what is it, 2 wins in the past 13 against OSU. Played in one BCS bowl game in recent memory, and that was kind of an abberation against an unglamorous team. Real questions about the HC sticking around after he fired his OC. 27 yards on 27 carries. Negative rushing yards against a couple of teams. Horrendous running game in general. Struggles defensively. The list goes on. It seems like there are lots of people on this board in their late 20's through early 40's. We remember UM being a national contender and fielding great teams. But LOTS of that is based on success from the 80s through early 00's; most of the kids now looking at schools were, at best, in grade school when that happened. I don't blame them for not caring about UM's history when what they see is a middling outfit trying to reclaim lost glory.
Recruiting is going reasonably well and I think people are overreacting because a kid is looking around, but kids will start treating UM like a big deal when they start proving it on the field.
I'm more worried about the guys we have on the team...if they start playing well, there will be other Crawford's. Recruiting isn't as fun to follow when you suck.
I'm tired of looking towards the future. We need results now.
Even with that said, I understand that this should be a growing year, but that's what I want to see...growth. I don't want to see us play our best in the 2nd game of the year against Notre Dame. I want to see improvement each week and by this time next season I want to be foaming at the mouth with anticipation of how we're about to WRECK 2015 with a schedule that sets up in our favorite and a bunch of juniors and seniors (finally).
For the next 2 years, I really don't care about recruiting, I want to see growth each week this year, and I want to see CFB Playoffs in 2015. Once we get that, I'll start thinking about the future again.
I hope we play the best against Norte dame.
But your point is very true. This team needs to progress. If we have another repeat of last year then I am truly worried about this program.
It seems like everyone here thinks Michigan is going to win the B1G and get into the playoff in 2015. I have my doubts, in 2015 we will have a new starting QB. I'm sure the rest of the team will be improving and we will have a favorable schedule. But, I still expect a lot of close games in 2015 and one wrong bounce of the ball could lead to a costly loss that may even prevent us from winning the eastern division! I would be happy with 10 wins and one of the older BCS bowls. It just seems like every year we push back when we are finally going to be really good. If you were to go back on this board to early 2012, many said we would win a national championship in 2014. But now that we're in 2014 we may be lucky to win 8 games, may be your national championship will come in 2017 or 2020?
Yes a new QB but no scary non conf team (@Utah is our toughest game!) and 10 of 11 starters is nearly unheard of (assuming Funchess comes back) on offense. And a defense that should have upperclassmen almost everyhwere. You get the 2 best teams in the East at home - if not 2015 then when? If not 2015 what do you sell recruits? Look we have had this staff for 5 years, and with Hoke's upperclassmen, and a schedule loaded for bear we pulled another good ole 9-4 season we have been famous for the past 15 years? While our rivals are putting up 11 win seasons regularly?
Yes a bouncing ball can mean a loss here or there but the 2015 squad needs to be excellent and that OSU UM game needs to be for the East title. If you frigging cannot beat MSU at home with all your upperclassmen in year 5 of a regime, we might as well start over.... it would be the 7th loss in 8 years to them! (assuming a loss this year). Hence the OSU UM game should be for the right to go to the BTT.
@PSU, OSU, and MSU should be the only 3 "losable" games that year in terms of talent (not accounting for a "weird game"... with the type of talent UM recruits and 5 years in the system.
After 2015 you add Wisconsin back to the schedule, you go back on the road to OSU and MSU, etc ... 2015 is the year everything sets up. Shane will be a 3rd year player in 2015 - not a newb. RS freshman QBs are leading their teams to conf championships and NCs. There is no youth excuse, and no we don't have talent excuses after this year. 2017 you have the rivals again at home but add Florida and Wisconsin to the schedule. If they can't do it in 2015 eff it.
He'll be a junior and first time* starter.
A big difference between that and a true freshman or even a RS Freshman QB.
He'll be surrounded by a veteran offensive line or young talent mixed in with a veteran line. Green/Smith, Funchess/Darboh/Chesson/Canteen and all the other WRs.
The defense will be full of vets and will have guys like Peppers taking over for Taylor.
No excuses** in 2015.
*Obviously he started the BWW Bowl
**Obviously we have to stay healthy
Those who stay...
The same people bitching about it now are all "Michigan man this, Team 13(whatever) that, Those Who Stay...This Is Michigan, History...Championships...Legacy...Woodson...Heisman...The Pose" when we're winning.
Now we act like that has some negative impact on the success (or lack thereof) we we have on the field.
How about we just get good...who cares if people want to talk about history or say the famous sayings?
Are they mutally exlusive? You can't always honor, be proud and cherish the past without wanting like hell for us to be worth a shit on the field?
Just because it comes off as soft and arrogant and nose in the air "hmmm, I don't care about 7-5, THIS IS MICHIGAN and THOSE WHO STAY....I said, THOSE WHO STAY!!!"
Just because it comes off like that doesn't mean it is. Doesn't mean those same people don't want Michigan to be winning just as much as you and I do.
I wish people would stop bitching about this kind of stuff, like it's ever going to stop or like it should stop.
History and tradition are part of Michigan whether any one single person likes it or not. Just because it's honored doesn't mean the future is neglected.
Let's quit acting like every time Hoke says "This is Michigan" he's not focused on this team and he's somewhere in Schemblecher Hall polishing off some olf team photo from the glory days for his office.
Straw man much? Nobody said there was cuasation or correlation between those sayings and performance. They are just tired of living in a present that is antipodal to the past captured in those sayings. They want those sayings to reflect the present as well. Perhaps you are the one who should stop bitching about your own fantastical correlation, which nobody is making.
It's part of Michigan football and will never go away. I am more tired of the people who act like the sky is falling every time something doesn't go our way.
Guess what? We aren't going to get every recruit we go after, no one does. I like Hoke and the direction he has the program going. Was last season shitty? Yes. Did Hoke make changes? Yes. Will we go undefeated next season? No. Will next season be better than last? Yes. Is Michigan still recruiting at a high level? Yes.
It sucks to see so many fans with their glasses of water half empty.
Him then he should go elsewhere. Really. Obviously he doesn't get it and is not a fit for Michigan. I am sick of kids committing or saying Michigan is the leader and going elsewhere. Have some character and make sure your words actually mean something. Next DB up please.
Remember that these kids are 16 and 17 years old when they are making these decisions. At this age, a "commitment" is any decision that lasts up to a week.
As the parent of two teenagers - and in particular - a daughter who is exactly Shawn Crawford's age and year in high school, I can understand how his choice of schools has waxed and waned. My daughter has been going through the same thing. When just over a year ago, she was convinced that U-M was in her future, now it's just one of four strong possibilities.
Huge year for recruiting, because it's a huge year for the staff. Just enormous. We have a lot of DB talent though, and it's young. On defense we have the same at DT and LB. What's needed at this point is a safety and rush DE. On offense we need a tackle this cycle, a top RB, and a WR.
But roster-wise, this team is set for a couple of years. Hoke and his staff have done a great job in that regard. After last year, the Development and Strategy questions are still open. Obviously offense brings in Nuss - he must out-smart opponents on gameday and have a better plan. Lordy I hope we have sideline checks (AL had them) and an audible other than "iso right". Defensively, Mattison needs to do the same. He had some questionable games. And Hoke... at some point he needs to be doing a little more in-game than ushering people on and off the field, and yelling at them to get back on the sideline. He delegates, which is fine, and a unique and maybe bold/gutsy strategy. But last year that delegation failed, and he should have been stepping in and making changes with in-game strategy. This year he absolutely must get this right.
You said "huge year for recruiting" and then started talking about things completely different.
#1 - Every year is huge, but this year...not really, it's not going to be a big class and this year likely won't have more than 2-3 guys that have to be contributors next year on anything other than special teams. You may get more than do, but they don't have to.
To be honest. We could take ZERO guys in this class, and if every other school in the country had to do the same, I'd like our roster better than most. We really don't have any holes to fill for next year. We already have guys who will be redshirting or going into their RS So. year that can fill those spots.
#2 - You said "it's a huge year for the staff." That right there dismantled your own argument. If it's a huge year for the staff...they better not be relying on true freshman from this class of 16-18 guys to help them (the staff) out. The "we're young/inexperienced" excuse flies out the window once we get halfway through 2014, it's definitely gone in 2015.
Why the hell would this years recruiting class matter to the staff more than any other year? I hope they're not relying on this class, because fans aren't going to wait until this class because RS So and Juniors before they start judging whats on the field.
If you're relying on guys from this class to be starters next year...you may as well put in your resignation papers today. And why have you overlooked Wilson, Thomas, Clark and Hill at S? Why have you overlooked Ojemudia and Marshall at rush DE? You expect a freshman OT to come in and play an "enormous" rule for this staff? Good luck with that. Green/Smith have played ONE season, what about them? And you have a log jam of young WRs for 2015...is one more really going to make that big of an impact? How do you already know you don't have a good one...we haven't seen 75-80% of the guys we have now.
#3 - You say this year is enormous and then say we're set for a couple of years. Sorry my man...but Hoke doesn't have more than 2 years to get this thing together. For some people he only has one, but I think that's unrealistic, But if we're still 7-5, 8-4 after next year...Hoke's gone and not one person is going to be shocked or surprised.
The rest of what you said had nothing to do about recruiting this year...I'd comment on it, but it would just be another tangent.
Your reply makes me believe you have not slept in several days. But in the spirit of common ground, I agree with your last sentiment that further debate would not be useful.
So.....on to the next one, eh? Wonder if this'll have an impact on Kinnel.
Analyze and give our opinions on recruiting. But at the end of the day, it's plain and simple. We have to win.
At we're at a point now, IMO, where I truly don't give a shit about recruiting. That's just me. Because, like I said, I feel we have enough to win with. Improvement this year and dominate next. I think we can do that without one more recruit (obviously we'll need special teams depth).
Certainly you don't want to have a big year in 2015 and then suck again because you neglected this year. So I know you can't just throw it away.
But truthfully, me personally, as a fan. I just don't care. I want to see us get good, I'm tired of looking toward the future at who can come in and save us. Hoke doesn't have that long to rely on anyone from this class anyway.
I want to see it on the field. Let's get good and then I'll follow recruiting again to see how we can fill holes in order to stay good.
My last comment is, right now we (the fans) don't even know what holes we have to fill. 75-80% of this team is playing significant snaps for the first time in their career. It'll be fun to watch, but we have no idea who's going to be good and who isn't.
For example, someone above said we need a RB and WR, if Green looks like Wheatley this year and Darboh and Chesson look like Braylon and Breaston...well, we don't really have THAT big of a need anymore. If Cole looks like Jake Long or Dymonte Thomas becomes Marcus Ray, we're okay at those positions. Is any of that likely? No, but we weren't assuming those guys would become legends either...and they did. So let's see who steps up. If just about everyone is playing big time minutes for the first time, I'm willing to bet we find some stars on this team.
Hoke is entering the 4th year of a 5 year contract and with our record over the past two years is definitely under the gun, both on this board and in the general public, to produce NOW. This fact is not lost on every other coach in the country and if anyone doesnt think they are wispering (sometimes yelling) in the recruits ear "nice choice on Michigan - who do you imagine your coach will be?" on every visit we're nuts.
I'm of the opinion that Brandon ought to give Hoke an extension - even if it means we might need to eat a couple of years of it if he has another shitty year- because a lame duck college coach is dead man walking on the recruiting trail. At least with the extension Hoke could recruit without the stigma of "will he be here" following him. My concern is by not giving him that security we are taking away the one thing Hoke has proven he CAN do at a high level - recruit - to save a few bucks if he ends up getting fired.
If we absolutely suck. He's fired.
If we're 7-5 again, Brandon's got a tough decision.
If he shows progress like I think and hope he does...I think he gets a small extension. Development is also key to this scenario.
If we play out of our minds...he obviously gets a big extension.
One thing I think a lot of people (not saying you) forget is...Dave Brandon knows football. So if he sees a team that is getting better every week and players that are developing, he'll give Hoke another year. I'm not going to put a record on it, but let's say we have a decent year, get better, but we beat OSU pretty good and then DESTROY some SEC team in the Outback Bowl.
That is showing progress. That creates excitement for the offseason. That tells Brandon and fans "okay, we've arrived...time to knock down the door."
That excitement is worth a year or two on the contract.
...people talk about was Rich Rod a lameduck coach in the Gator Bowl. I've said this time and time again. I know for a FACT. I mean speaking with folks directly tied to the situation that he wasn't. Rich Rod had the weeks of bowl practice and that game to show promise, exactly what I'm talking about with Hoke. If Rich Rod went out and tore up Miss. St. ---- he would've kept his job at least for another year. That is fact. He got fired in the 2nd quarter of that game (or whenever they started to walk us behind the woodshed for our whooping).
If he wins that game and Denard goes crazy, there's so much excitement about the next year that I don't even know if Brandon could've fired him if he wanted. It wouldn't have been as popular, I can tell you that.
Anyway...yes, it's about THIS year. But I think that if we're all being realistic, we shouldn't be expecting National Championship this year. The schedule sucks, the team is inexperienced, etc. This year is about weekly growth and development. Get some big wins and be playing your best football at the end of the year. Next year, 2015 - no excused. CFB Playoff or bust.
After all that, I can sum up expectations for this year in ONE sentence and a score: THIS TEAM IN DECEMBER SHOULD BE ABLE TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THIS TEAM IN SEPTEMBER - something like 38-17.
I think you're right (and interesting insight on RR). Here's how I'd say the record translate to "future Hoke"
10-2 or better = 5 year extension
9-3 with a win over MSU or OSU = 3 year extension
9-3 with no wins over MSU or OSU = 2 year extension
8-4 = no extension
7-5 = 50-50 on staying but probably fired unless tremendous progress made throughout year and at least one win over MSU or OSU
6-6 or worse = fired
Not going to put numbers on it, because someone will be so quick to say "BUT WHAT IF....!!!!"
So that's why I like to say just get better every week. Lloyd Carr was a dry SOB, but he used to say all the time "we have to get better every week, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse." He was Ricky Bobby before Ricky Bobby.
But he was also correct.
If we play the way we did vs. ND and their NFL DL, we need to continue improving. We didn't until the OSU game.
Steady progress and we need to be playing our last 2-3 games on an elite level almost as if to say "next year, this shit is ours, because we're back!" The hype train should be running full steam next offseason with people talking about how we beat OSU and destroyed an SEC team. We should be "the sexy pick."
As for contracts, 6-6, I think he's got to get at least a 1 year extension if he comes back so coaches can't recruit against him in his last year of his contract. If it's just 1 year, he'll also need a vote of confidence, which I'm sure Brandon will give because he likes hearing himself talk (like me).
(And as for Rich Rod...100%. I was literally there as it unfolded. It was surreal. Everyone in the suite/club floor knew he had a shot, and we scored early and there was some excitement...everyone was all "this is what we've been waiting for!" And then "it" happened and 2 hours later we all walked out and it was dead silent. It was like we all just witnessed Rich Rod get fired on the spot. There wasn't even normal bowl game loss chatter about what people were going to do that night or meet up. It was SILENT. Everyone knew we just watched a man lose his job over one game.
I always wondered what would've happened if we won that game by a FG or something. I think he still would've been gone. I think Denard and co. needed to win by 2 TDs and just control the entire game for Brandon to say "okay, you get your year to show us."
In a lot of ways, that year is Hoke this year. Except because Hoke is in year 4, I don't think it comes down to just a Bowl game. I think he's going to have to show significant promise the last 1/4 of the season. By the time the bowl game is over, there can't be any doubt that we're a favorite to get to the B1G Championship game next year.
It'll also depend on the coaches that are "on the market."
Anyway...lets just win! screw looking for a different Coach. Too many people would've fired Beilein after he went 17-15 in year 3. Now they love him. Same will happen to Hoke if he wins because he loves Michigan the way Beilein does. He's got his foundation --- go win.
This is more or less the matrix of scenarios I'm seeing as well, with the same outcomes.
It enables Hoke to say for the next year that he isn't going anywhere, which will help recruiting in the short- and mid-term run.
Da'Shawn Hand, Damien Harris, George Campbell, Shawn Crawford. That's a huge cost already paid. People keep saying "next season is huge!" Well, last season was huge, and we shit the bed. All momentum is gone, and we lost pieces that could've been program-changing. Serious damage has already been done. A good-to-great season this year will get us back to spring 2011 in terms of program appeal. It's a long road to get us back to spring 2012 appeal.
3 out of the 4 players you mentioned would be TRUE freshman next year.
You just made an argument against looking towards the future...by looking towards the future.
We shouldn't have to rely on ANY of those guyse for success next year. If we are, then we're doomed and we're sitting around waiting until they're juniors before we're expecting anything of Michigan again....because the "too young" excuse is still valid if you're relying on those 4 guys and their classes to support Michigan this year and next year.
We've recruited just fine up until this point. Hoke hasn't had ONE bad year recruiting. He's had an average year, a good year and an exceptional year. That's not too bad.
Nonetheless, we can't be relying on Hand, Harris, Campbell and Crawford.
And I love how you write off and highly touted QB, RBs, WRs, OL, DL, LB, and DBs that we do have. Morris, Green, Darboh, Cole, Kalis, Magnuson, Mone, Pipkins, Charlton, Marshall, Gedeon, Ross, Bolden, Peppers, Lewis and Thomas must ALL suck! We've seen into the future and those guys are just no good that we needed these 4 names to rescue us.
Come on, we're not FUBAR. Carr left Rich Rod with shit and Rich Rod left Hoke with shit. That is fact. This is basically year 1 since Carr left. This year the first year since Carr where a coach has HIS team and the foundation HE wants. They're inexperienced, but they'll get that this season. Next year let's see what we have, we should be great. Go be elite (Natinonal Championship game elite) and no one will be worrying about missing out on the 4 names you mentioned.
FSU and Auburn missed out on plenty of big names as well over the years. They did just fine and now they're both seeing the benefits of the Championship game, they'll continue to be fine.
that program momentum is critical.
Miami's record over the last three years: 22-15; our record over the last three years: 26-13
The problem is that we've gone 11-2, 8-5, and 7-6, while Miami is 6-6, 7-5, and 9-4.
To older fans that trend might seem insignificant from a historical perspective, but to an 18-year old kid it's probably huge.
What's interesting to me is that Crawford apparently isn't bothered by the idea of playing in front of massive numbers of empty seats. The only home game last year that was remotely close to capacity was Florida; for the final home game of the year against Virginia, there were over 30,000 empty seats, and three other home games had less than 50K in attendance. That's pathetic for a 74,000+ seat facility.
Not that hard to understand Don
It's not like the coeds at Michigan suddenly got homely over the last three seasons.
Or am I not paying attention when I'm on campus?
Michigan better win the divsion this year.
If they don't, then I'm done with Hoke.
I don't get excited about landing or potentially losing a recruit. If we win on the field everything else will take care of itself. If we don't win on the field this season it's not because of lack of starry recruits it's because our coaches aren't developing starry recruits properly.
That being said, the negative recruiting is starting to piss me off. Urban is the most notorious negative recruiter in college football and he''s behind a lot of what you are hearing and seeing. And it's not always to try to get a player to sign with Ohio, he knows that getting a player to not go to Michigan is important too. If he can get a stud corner to not go to Michigan it's a win for his team. The gloves are off, Hoke and company need to hit back.
Why not check out a few more schools and geographical areas when the opportunity arises? Hopefully he will see the light and return to the place that he committed to.
Been traveling since mid 90's.
Kirkland just committed...
of an early signing period for CFB, say "Aye".