They beat the worst 4 teams of the past 30 years. Who cares. Let them beat Hoke and Co in 2014, and then I'll say that their worth of respect as a rival.
alternate headline: man does job
They beat the worst 4 teams of the past 30 years. Who cares. Let them beat Hoke and Co in 2014, and then I'll say that their worth of respect as a rival.
Absolutely. Do that, and I say they're legit.
..they are legit. Here's what has happened the past four years, we were dominating State and we beat them six years straight, and Hart called them little brother.
Then Rich Rod came in, and made pro-style players run a speed spread, and instant loss. Then he started recrutiing smaller (faster) players at every position and ignored instate recruiting, but his speed spread just didn't work. So a lot of quality players who would have gone to michigan went to MSU. They are in a sense, Lloyd Carr's teams, just at MSU. These 4 losses in the MSU - UofM rivalry has accidently answered the debate of whether or not we should of kept Lloyd Carr or at the least a pro offense.
Now Brady is here and he is going to start stealing all those players who would of gone to state in the future, plus some national grabs as we have seen, but currently we still have all of Rich Rod's players. I am not giving you the same bare roster bull we have said in the past. But you are only as good as the players you recruit in college football. Rich Rod, ignored the trenches positions and all of defense, and it shows.
So I want the spartans to enjoy this run. Little brother is still little brother, they have just been stealing Michigan's plan to success and Brady Hoke, Greg Mattison and Al Borges are here to take it back.
We don't have to go undefeated this year, it'd be nice...but lets just make a bowl and enjoy the thrills of the season. We have the top OL and LB class coming in, one of the top classes overall and probably a top 2 defense class coming in. Oh yea, and Shane Morris is on his way soon too.
In the Words of TomVh, "Buckle up" State, cause were coming for the next 8.
how is this team this year considered one of the worst teams we have ever had? give me a break
Which team was comparable in the recent past? 2007? 2005?
this year's team is not one of the better teams we have had in 30 years. aside from a miracle against ND, we've beaten no one of particular note so far, and looked inept at both runnning and passing against a non elite MSU team. we literally have a QB who can't pass the ball and has regressed. my good friend scott hanson (NFL redzone host and huge UM fan) agreed on that. denard has regressed dramatically as a passer.
we have a first year coach and O.Coord who are trying to fit squares in circles. i hoped for 8-4 this year and will be happy if we achieve that, hopefully with a competitive game vs OSU. after the last three years, that is good enough for me.
as for MSU, they are not legit. they are a regional power only, never a national power. they take advantage of our down years. good for them. come 2014, we'll see who's on top again.
So you're saying Michigan's football team won't be able to beat Michigan State's football team until our fanbase admits to your fanbase that you're legit?
Sparty on, Sparty.
Are you from a foreign country? Do you really speak like you type?
...but we also beat almost seventy of their worst teams. That neither invalidates our overall record against them, nor their recent record against us.
This team will not end up being one of the worst in the last 30. We have a good chance to finish strong and are not out of the Big 10 picture yet, especially with Sparty still having to play Wisky and Nebraska. It will be a good year if we can end the pain to Ohio, and it's only a matter of time before Sparty reverts back to mediocrity, especially with Hoke and co. crushing them in recruiting.
Till the season is over, quitter.
We need to wait until we see next years 2013 INSTATE RECRUITING class, before we can have any hope of answering this question...
So, arguing whether or not MSU is here to stay as a dominate team at this point is a useless endeavor. We can debate it all day long (which we have) and throw out the same worn out arguments (aka. best vs. worst teams in 50 years) to make us feel better...
MSU lives and dies by instate recruiting, which they have dominated over the last 3 years (insert obligatory RR bash).
Background: 2009-2011 instate (UofM to MSU)
5star = 2 to 1
4star = 4 to 7
3star = 7 to 15
However, this year we might as well call MSU's instate recruiting class “Dantonio's Devastated Domination”…
Scout.com class of 2012
Michigan State #26
*[caveats for their ranking being “somewhat” influenced by how much revenue they expect to gain for dolling out ranks (see: ND every year)
Breakdown (just pulling from Ace’s great info)
UofM = 2
MSU = 1
UofM = 1
MSU = 0
UofM = 12 (5 instate) (W00T!)
MSU = 2 (1 instate)
UofM = 10 (2 instate)
MSU = 12 (3 instate)
That is 5 more “premium” instate recruits for UoM this year!
BUT, as promising as those numbers are they could be an anomaly related to the first year boost a lot of new head coaches see.
SO, the Class of 2013** is where we need to look for “educated guessing material”.
IF, (big if) Hoke&Company is able to out recruit MSU instate again DESPITE losing to them 4 years in a row, we will have our answer and if not... (Insert Horrible Thoughts)…
AND, even if we do wreak Dantonio’s boat in recruiting it might take a year or two to show dividends… shudder…
** 5star MI, QB Shane Morris has already committed to UoM class of 2013
Jimmy Malone approves of this message.
I agree with everything in your post except the title, and that we should hold them up to the same level of rival as OSU.
Before the coaching change/scheme transformation, they couldn't win shit. Why should that change because they've beaten us while everyone else has as well? Also, it's much more fun to say they're not to feed the inferiority complex. I don't want them to grow out of it because it's so much funnier when they say, "GIVE US ATTENTION GIVE US ATTENTION" and we just say, "Why?"
but could you do it somewhere else?
Thanks for making me laugh. I really hope you aren't serious. MSU wishes that we considered them our biggest rival. OSU and ND are both bigger rivalries than MSU.
how many more ass kickings does it take before we give them the privilege of being our rival. Your right, MSU v. UM is not a rivalry right now. For it to be considered a rivalry again we actually have to beat them once in a while. Wake up man.
I hate them with the fire of a thousand suns. And they're a pretty good team. They're just not on the level of OSU, ND, and others. They're going to have to put a lot of great years on the table before they get there...It all comes down to your definition of "legit," of course. I just don't want to praise them for anything.
Well this weekend's loss != ass kicking so probably a few in a row. It's not a rivalry because the series is still about 70% in our favor. Go back to sleep man.
its a big rivalry for a lot of fans, because we either live wit Msu fans or work with them. and its tough when they rub it in your face when uofm loses, and its been 4 years since we can say anything.
They're a pretty good Big Ten team in a year in which most of the league's powers are down. When Michigan is Michigan, they're a national player. MSU is not - see Alabama, stomps balls off of MSU, 2011 bowl game.
I know that every Michigan fan considers OSU to be the biggest rival but I think it's time for MSU to be held in the same regard.
I stopped reading at that point. Part of a rivalry for me is respect for the opposing institution. I respect OSU. I respect ND. I don't respect MSU. I know some M fans consider them our 2nd rival but to me they're 3rd and frankly aren't close to ND in 2nd.
Is MSU a good team? Sure. We haven't beat them in 4 years and they've had a nice little run of success. I don't see though how them being "legit" affects rivalry standing.
If you think the heat on the field vs ND is hotter then MSU you are crazy. MSU is clearley the 2nd rival and 2nd most hated(proved by the threads on this board). Beating the instate rival always goes ahead of ND imo.
MSU is legit as a football team? I'll give you that. But no way do I believe MSU is as big as a rival as OSU. Also, never play down to another team's level. We are better than that. The hate does not need to be reciprocal.
There toughest road win the past 3 years now has been at Penn State last year (they weren't that good). The team has played very well at home under Dantonio, but not well on the road and the schedule has set up for them very nicely these past 2 years. Last year no OSU and Wisconsin and Notre Dame at home. This year, Wisconsin at home with 2 tough road trips to Nebraska and Iowa. Lets wait for the verdict until those games are over.
MSU is having their best run in probably 50 years and we are having our worst run in close to 100.
That's not to take anything away from them, but it is a simple fact.
What separates us from them is the ability to maintain a high level of success over the long term. I have no doubt that will continue to be the case moving forward.
We just have to stay the course.
So in short I disagree with basically everything the OP said.
What has MSU done to deserve being our biggest rival? Did I miss a ten year war, or multiple MNC's they've racked up, or a game with so much on the line that it's nicknamed "The Game"? I'd bet if you asked a thinking OSU fan they would be disguisted at thinking MSU deserved our rivalry like they do.
While we're at it, we might as well include Illinois and Minnesota on the same level as OSU. They hate us as well.
You're forgetting a little thing called the Capital One Bowl. What great college team doesn't dream of playing in it?
We certainly didn't complain when we beat the Tim Tebow-led Gators in the Capital One Bowl.
Right, because we won. We still don't hold 2007 as any kind of great season, though. Far from it. Meanwhile, the best MSU team in recent memory got taken behind the woodshed by Alabama. And Iowa.
I don't count 2007 as a good season. For MSU, it would have been a great season.
We lost because of Bad playcalling, bad QB play, and bad blociking. They are not now nor ever will be on an equal level with OSU. This years team is not 1 of the 4 worst michigan teams of the past 30 years IMO..I feel like the coaches let these kids down on saturday..
You have to factor in that Michigan is 40% out-of-state. While the MSU rivalry is significant, especially to the in-staters, it doesn't even approach OSU, and may not even be as big as ND. If I could have 1 win every year, it would be against OSU, hands down, I wouldn't even think about occasionally beating MSU just for fun. OSU first, always, and most. They are a national power, just like Michigan...MSU is a regional power and hasn't proven otherwise (look at last year). Let's see them beat us 4 more times in the next 20 years, but even then OSU would still be a bigger rival.
It's also mutual rivalry with Ohio. They hate us the most, bar none. That's part of what makes it so special, the mutual rival-respect thing going on (or lack of it).
I'm saying beating Michigan four years in a row is tiresome when each contest looked we are completely overmatched. I understand the schematics that went in to this game (i.e. trash tornado, inexplicably bad playcalling in the 2nd half) but those fourteen personal fouls MSU committed had a huge effect on this game. They wanted to make Denard scared. Who did Michigan intimidate?
Those penalties almost allowed us to tie it in the fourth. They were stupid, bush league bullshit plays and Michigan should never stoop to that level. If MSU wasn't that dirty the game might have been a blowout.
I do think we need to play with more intensity against these guys, but I don't want to elevate them just because they are a good team who has beaten us 4 years in a row. MSU is our 2nd rival. They are in state and we compete head to head for recruits. They are in our division. It will always be important to beat them.
And those of us who live in Michigan have to deal with the MSU fans on a daily basis. I hate losing to them, but they are not our equals as a program and never will be.
"each context looked we are completely overmatched"
I think what the marbles above are trying to say is that you perceived that on Saturday (despite a 7 -7 score at the half, a chance to tie the game and the margin of victory resultant of a pick six, where we averaged 5.2 yards per carry and the defense gave up 21 points to a senior QB) that this Michigan team was overmatched.
That's completely wrong. We had inexplicably bad playcalling? Yes. But overmatched. Srsly.
Why? The fact that they are so excited about beating us 4 years in a row just shows how desperate they are. Did anybody care when we beat them 6 years in a row ('02-'07)? Did Chad Henne and Mike Hart run around holding up 6 fingers after beating them in '07? That's the point. They are a mediocre program that has been able to take advantage of us in the worst 3-year span in our history. Kudos to them for doing that, but it's not something that demands respect.
The OP is overeacting but I don't think we should diminish MSU just becaue we lost to them. They are a big rival. An in state Big Ten program who competes for our recruits. Who wouldn't want Gholston(despite the cheap play), Lawrence Thomas or Edwin Baker on our team right now?
It is what it is. MSU is better than they have been in a while. They are better than us right now. But they do not have the national appeal or history that we have. We should be able to build our team up so that we are better than them in the near future.
That's fair. Maybe "care" isn't the right word. But my point is that, before Michigan's football program imploded a few years ago, the expectation was that we would win. So us winning 6 years in a row, even though it was great and people probably did care, it was expected, so there wasn't the same amount of hoopla surrounding it.
These last 3 years have inarguably been the most tumultuous, embarrassing, humiliating, etc., years in the history of our program. It's not the same as them beating us in 2001 when there was stability and depth in our program.
And I wasn't intending to bash their players. From just a talent-focused perspective, I would love it if we had landed Gholston a couple years ago. Obviously, he's proven himself to be a turd, but he's still a talented player.
I completely agree. A Michigan team would never taunt their opponent by holding up the number of fingers for consecutive wins (especially against MSU, as for at least during one streak in history, several of our teams' players would have run out of fingers). Plus, I give our team props for not stooping to their level (I would probably had wanted to hold up one finger back at them). If they really want respect, they simply need to go about their business, and just keep the series competitive, while quietly winning as many games againt Michigan as they as can. Respect would then eventually come over time. Dantonio and State need to learn that respect is earned, and not just a given.
We have been the dominant team on the field for years without having to play down to the level of MSU. When we play up to Michigan's standards, this will not be an issue. MSU was a better team Saturday and beat a good (yes good) Michigan team. Michigan needs to be great, because every week they will get the best from every team that plays us. Illinois, MSU both consider us their biggest rivalry and a little bit of most every other team, has a major dislike of Michigan. This was earned by being one of the top two teams in the confereance for 40 years (and beyond that).
Michigan never should play down to other teams levels. Leaders and Best, This is Michigan.
As respect any team that takes the field as an opponent- sure. But not an equal as a rivalry with Ohio.
I respect Ohio State because I know they will always be good and I almost fear them (obviously I still always think we will win). I have no respect or fear for Michigan State.
Michigan State may have the No. 2 ranked defense right now (186 ypg), but Wisconsin is not Michigan. Let's see if putting 9 in the box against Russell Wilson & Co. works to the same effect. Unlike Michigan, Wisconsin's offensive line is absolutely massive. They also have 2 backs (Ball and White) who will easily surpass 1,000 yards rushing this fall.
Meanwhile, Russell Wilson is hitting on 74% of his passes, has excellent touch on long throws, and he has very good weapons in Abrederis and Toon at WR.
With Michigan, we knew they were shaky in wins before the loss to MSU. Wisconsin has not looked shaky at all in any games they've played. They look more like a freight train.
Having your best players suspended is also unlikely to help the Spartans cause.
If memory serves, he was so legit that he couldn't even consider retiring from the hip hop industry...
I assume you are speaking of nothing beyond football, and then only for a very few years. The planets will slip back into alignment, have no fear. Nebraska isn't going to tolerate it, and Michigan is headed back. The green fellows are going to have to beat both teams to have any future football relevance.
We have not had to stoop to that level in the past, and I don't foresee much chance of Michigan stooping to that level in the future. If thuggery alone won things, it would be far more commonplace.
I like that the refs flags are yellow. I suspect that sparty is going to be seeing a lot of yellow this year. Refs are people too.
said they needed to throw the red flag in that game Saturday. It was cute.
Let's face it, MD and his staff (espcially Narduzzi) have brought a different mind set to MSU and they are much better coaches than what MSU has had in the past. Also, the style of football they play does not require a lot of super stars to be effective. I would say, they are similar to Wisconsin in that regard. So we should not put a lot of hope in our recruiting to make this game as one sided as it was for many years. MSU is going to be very competitive for many years to come. If we are back to old Michigan, we could count on winning 60%-65% of our games against MSU.
It is worth mentioning that the only time we defeated the MSU under MD was when we had a team with 5-6 NLF players and it still came down to a last minute TD.
Okay, so what happens in 2012 if Michigan State wins? What will Michigan's excuses be then? Since 2008, the fanbase has a million excuses as to why we lost to them. I understand we were awful in 2008, came one bad pass away from getting the victory in OT in 2009, but in 2010 Denard gave 3 gifts to MSU and then this year they completely blitz their way to victory.
Hate MSU. Hate MSU with a bloody passion.
You are right to a certain degree. The people who downplay this loss are not seeing the whole picture. But its not because MSU isn't taken seriously as an opponent. If anything, psychology dictates that we downplay the significance to make ourselves feel better. Secretly, I think a lot of U of M fans are worried that this isn't the old MSU. That Dantonio will keep this team a top 25 team for a long time. He is recruiting 5 stars. Sevon Pittman is ranked higher than all of our DEs by a few services.
But I also don't think they will ever be able to out recruit Michigan nationally if we do what we're supposed to do. We have more money, more history, better facilities, a bigger alumni base and better academics. I think Hoke and his assistants are at least equal in terms of coaching.
To your point, I do think we need to play this game with more intensity. But they didn't beat us because of intensity. If anything, they almost gave the game away because all the penalties kept us in it. They beat us because they have better offensive and defensive lines than our corresponding lines and they outcoached our coaches. But if we just take care of our own business and get better as a team, we will be better than them on the field and on the scoreboard.
a rational response.
I think our boys played their hearts out but they just don't have the overall talent that MSU has at this moment, especially on the defensive side of the ball. On offense we are close to what they have but Borges called a pretty lackluster ballgame. I hope the team learns from this loss and keeps on improving as the season goes on.
It's hard to truly say MSU is legit at this point. I was sort of with Brian in his preview when he predicted an MSU victory. Defense had some bad moments, but still only allowed 21 pts to MSU. 213 on the ground is abysmal, but they only had 120 passing and we forced two turnovers and were robbed of others (backward pass!). Michigan had 20 first downs to MSU's 16. Michigan played it's worst game by far, and still managed to make it a close one until the end.
MSU gets a rude awakening next , which is the same awakening we would be getting if we played Wisconsin. I think the obvious and boring answer is Michigan itself isn't legit yet, so a victory over us shouldn't propel MSU (or anyone for that matter) into that category.
I do agree with the OP though that Michigan does not seem to reciprocate the hate vibe. Actually, I find it more of a swagger issue. I watch us play and I see us trying to not mess up rather than take it to them. Indeed we never counted on hate before to beat them, rather a sense of self that said, "We are Michigan. We expect to win and we'll show you why."
for three or four years now, barely beating us when we're down. I have no problem accepting this reality.
Beyond that what does "legit" really mean?
We don't respect their character. We probably universally don't respect their institution. But make no mistake...the MSU game is the second most important game of the year. Far beyond Notre Dame, our third storied rival.
It's just tough to use that word respect for them. I certainly respect ND more.
They are legit because they beat Michigan? No. Michigan isn't even close to legit. Michigan is okay and can get by because of some forced turnovers and athletic plays. If MSU can beat Wisconsin, then they are in the conversation to be legit. I even have my concerns about Wisconsin defense not being so good. The OP just went to ESPN today and was like..."OOOOOOOO SHIT ESPN THINKS THEY ARE LEGIT!"
Seriously, I figured this must have been started by some sort of Troll is Maize clothes.
MSU thinks this a huge rivalry because they are insatiably jealous of what Michigan represents and the selectivity of the admissions process. I think (mostly because I'm an arrogant bastard) a lot of the hate is sour grapes, whether it is because of our academic standing, the serious amount of national titles we win across many sports, or that no one nationally really thinks much of MSU. With the exception of last year, they don't even get the attention of in-state recruits who Michigan goes after.
OSU is on a completely different plane. There have been multiple times when both schools are top 5, if not #1 and #2. We have a long history of playing tough games that result in someone going to a Rose Bowl, and we're both typically vying for the Big Ten title. No one even remembers MSU "shared" a title last year. We pull top prospects out of their state, and people have disowned family for going to the other school.
In closing ... no, you couldn't be more wrong.
Actually, I think the only time OSU and UM have been 1 and 2 in the polls heading into the game was 2006.
And honestly, both teams being in the Top 5 heading into the game hasn't happened much lately either. '97 and maybe '03 would be the only times that has happened since Bo stepped down. Even in the 80's I don't there were many, if any, Top 5 matchup's between OSU and UM.
Even if we focus only on their on-field play (i.e. throw out all of the real reasons that it's hard to respect MSU), how about we wait until they get to their first BCS bowl before we crown them? A whole lot of teams have beaten us over these past few years.
OSU is a worthy, permanent, mortal enemy. MSU is a disgusting mosquito that bites you every once in awhile and won't go away.
Just because they are legitimate doesn't mean we have to respect them. How much respect do we pay OSU? Not very much.
One of which it took them double overtime to do it.
They got pasted 49-7 by Alabama last year.
They have lost every single head to head recruiting battle with us this year aside from 2 players who could not pass admissions to get into Michigan.
This year they had a better team, they are a minor nuisance a couple times every couple decades, nothing more.
argument come in? Can you please point me to where the admission requirements for football players differ between Michigan and other B1G schools? Pretty sure it was made clear that every B1G school has the exact same standards for football with the exception of Northwestern(Fitz has made a point of that on multiple occasions).
MSU 67-32-5 67%
OSU 57-44-6 56%
ND 22-15-1 59%
Min 71-24-3 73%
MSU has some making up to do before they fall to M's "Bottom Bitch". Hats off to them for the four years. I've always hated them more than Ohio and now I can add the "Oakland Raider" mentality to thier persona.
"Worst of all, Brady Hoke’s Michigan team played with little passion and with a horrible game plan. If it’s obvious that Robinson isn’t a thrower—and at this point, after more ugly and unsuccessful jump balls, aren’t we convinced?—stop trying to make him do something he can’t.
Michigan State certainly played well against the run, but Michigan helped by giving up on it too soon. That left Robinson standing in a collapsing pocket, avoiding a defensive line that was toying with Michigan’s protection schemes. He threw off one foot or no feet or unbalanced with his hips wide open. Basically, Robinson was a mechanical mess with zero hope of success—unless a play broke down and a receiver broke off a route and Robinson found him.
You can’t put Robinson in that position, just like you can’t ignore the fact that Little Brother is all grown up.
As the clock wound down amid the howling wind at Spartan Stadium, Michigan State jumped and danced like it had just won a championship. Michigan trudged off the field without the Paul Bunyan Trophy. Again.
Little Brother just made another big statement.
Michigan can no longer ignore it."
I mean, congrats on the win. I really wanted to beat you guys and I'm disappointed that we lost. But what does it really prove? Every win you guys have had over the past 4 years comes with major caveats. This year, admittedly, has fewer, but you can't ignore the fact that Denard is still trying to adapt to a new offensive system. Borges has said himself that he typically sees growing pains in the first year as his QB adjusts to his offense. Do you want us to admit that you had the better team again this year? I can give you that. You had the better team. You've had the better team the past 4 years, and the majority of people around here have already admitted that. You have some great players and some good coaches, I'll admit that.
But you haven't had the better team because you've risen above us; it's more because we've sunk below you and we are still in the process of rebuilding.
I'll give you the fact that UM has dropped. MSU has gone through hiring the wrong guy far more times than UM, and it can cripple a team for years. Your team will pay for RR for years (he simply didn't recruit B1G caliber players on the lines). What MSU has now, and hasn't had for decades, is having everyone on the same page: coach, AD, pres. UM's best days were when you had an awesome coach in Bo, and one of the BEST ADs in college history in Don Canham. UM's program was unstoppable during this time.
The only reason I post here, is to try to bring some perspective to the whole Thug U. thing. Seriously, that's BS. Yes, we had some plays I am embarrassed about (the head twist being the most egregious). But, playing tough and aggressive will give you more penalties, and MSU accepts that. Sure, you'll all rip me for supporting Thug U, but every single one of you know you'd rather have players that will knock the other guy down and take no prisoners. As Denard said, it's football and it's dirty. I DO NOT support dirty play, but I'm all for aggresive and tough. This is the B1G, no girls allowed. Seriously, guys, grow a pair and get back to Michigan football.
Lastly, I don't care whom you consider your rivals--that's your business. I will say I get more pleasure out of beating UM than I do beating any other team. We've owned ND for the last decade or so, and beat Wisconsin the last couple of times we've played them. Iowa has given us fits the last two games, so I'd like to whomp them good next time. But, no one gives me more pleasure to beat than UM. If you hate and don't respect MSU, that's your deal. My deal is winning. Job done. Now, rip away.
If you take offense to the "Thug U" moniker, how do you justify Dantonio's handling of the mounting examples to the outside world that MSU is truly full of thugs? You can justify one occurrence of thuggery as a random act of violence, sure. I agree with that. But how do you justify the totality of the evidence - e.g. beating of non-testosterone loaded colleagues off the field, reinstatement of Cunningham, allowing Gholston to return to the field after not one but TWO personal fouls, including throwing a punch (!!) that is going to get him suspended, etc. At some point, it changes from being single occurrences here and there to being evidence of a system riddled with violence and lack of control.
I ask these questions because I, for one, would be embarrassed today if I were an MSU fan. I don't mean to say that you should be embarrassed. I just mean that if I watched my alma mater play like it did and exist like it has on and off the field under Dantonio, I would definitely write to my AD to complain about the lack of controls. Like it or not, those kinds of things so say a lot about the university, not just the football program. But I definitely do not want to impose my beliefs on you, which is why I'm truly just interested in what you think about the totality of these occurrences - how do you justify them in your analysis that MSU is not "Thug U." Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
This might come across as more condescending than I intend, but I think that part of the reason why there's such a disconnect between disgusted UM fans and "that's-just-tough-football" MSU fans is that we just have different standards for our football programs. There are some fanbases out there - Michigan, ND, PSU, etc. - that would react with anger and embarrassment to a display like MSU's on Saturday. And like you said, it's not just on-field stuff. I, like many here, was ready to explode if Stonum didn't get suspended, and my ND friends have been very hard on Kelly for his non-punishment of Floyd.
It's just different standards for program integrity. The reality, though, is that we're probably in the minority, not MSU.
I think that's spot on. But isn't it interesting that this is the case? Does it mean that Michigan fans are more "enlightened" than other fan bases? I couldn't imagine that could be true but maybe it really is? Because I definitely felt the same about Stonum as you and was not upset at his punishment, whereas Dantonio reinstates Cunningham without hesitation (?) and I never read any outcry from Sparty nation. Very strange.
The yearly game against them is a rivalry game. The problem(for them) is, it's not our biggest rival. OSU will ALWAYS be that rival. Is MSU better right now? Yes. Have they won the last 4? yes. Do we need to get better? Hell Yes? Is their program, their coach, their way of playing the game, their respect for the game at the same level as OSU, ND or Wisconsin or PSU. Absolutely NOT!
Winning is only part of the equation. There is respect for the opponent and the game that matters. When MSU understands that they not only represent East Lansing and their own alumni, that they represent the entire conference each time they take the field and respect the game and how it is played and not focus simply on winning at all costs, then and only then will they begin to rise closer to the top of the conference in respect.
If you feel the need to hurt the opponent and think that taking players out of the game earns repect, you're wrong, they're wrong.
I agree with there's no joy is injuring the opposoing players to take them out of the game. No MSU fan I know will say they want hard working young men injured. I'm a regular at tRCMB, and I don't read that there. There is a term called "McGuffied." That poor dude got his bell wrung pretty bad a couple of times, and when a guy gets rung up, it's a "McGuffie." But, I'll tell you all one thing--I'm sorry for the head twist. That simply doesn't belong in the game, and I (or most people on the RCMB) don't want to see anything like that again. Denard Robinson seems like a heck of a nice guy--a credit to your university--and I don't have any desire to see him injured, especially unfairly, in a game.
What I won't applogize for is tough, physical play. This is the B1G, we are the Spartans, and we don't take prisoners.
"I do not condone William Gholston-esque style of football."
What Gholston did isn't football. Even the punch I was willing to somewhat look the other way, but, twisting the helmet like that...no excuse.
What's the conversation like today if Denard had been hurt on that facemask twist? That is not a football play.
that MSU has become a disciplined team that plays with sportsmanship, doesn't implode in the 2nd half of the season, keeps penalties under control, respects it's opponents, has coaches who show class and build better men during their tenure, AND does this year after year? If so, I reply a resounding NO to your OP.
Any sort of respect to that program , IF ANY , may come if they beat Wisky. this weekend. With that said... NO RESPECT is coming their way because the big uglies will win in EL.
With that said....Fvck MSU.
They're going to lose to Wisconsin and Nebraska and finish 4th in the Big Ten. It will also almost certainly make our game with Nebraska for the division title.
I do think that Dantonio is going to be the next OSU coach.
I don't think that can be your only indicator.
Time to stop dwelling on MSU. They were clearly the better team on Saturday and the scoreboard demonstrates that fact. It's time to worry about our next opponent, Purdue, instead of constantly discussing State. We will bounce back from the tough loss and finish the season 9-3, IMO.
I think this year's team has been an improvement, but I would not call it a 'good' team. We had good, as well as great, teams during the Bo/Mo/Lloyd era.
Here's a hypothetical question. If this year's Michigan team played against any Michigan team (by that I mean season) from the Bo/Mo/Lloyd era, which one could it beat?
I can't think of one and that includes the 1984 6-6 season. All Michigan teams during that era had defenses that were vastly superior to today's team. That's obvious. With the exception of '84 when Harbaugh got hurt and Zurbrugg became the starter, the offenses were also vastly superior too.
Legit at what?
I agree that this game will probably never be as big as OSU. That being said if MSU is able to maintain what they've accomplished the last few years and UM gets back to being UM, the UM/MSU game will have significant implications for winning the division crown and playing in the Big Ten title game.
Don't forget about the impact on recruiting. Stringing losses years in a row together is not good for Michigan in in-state recruiting. Hoke's entrance had a big impact on this class but that will calm down after this year and next year it will be all about results. Michigan can't continue to lose to Sparty and expect to win the state, I don't think.
If MSU starts winning every game handily to the point that we are dominated in all phases of the game, it will become THE rivalry. MSU will also have to tone down the hate. Not because a little hate talk isn't good, but because it goes so far. OSU hates us, we hate them, but we can be dismissive with our hate. MSU comes off as so desperate to be our equal that it undermines their argument and gives strength to our own. Perhaps unfair, but if they trounced us by 30 and acted like they were supposed to, this rivalry would finally take on a different complexion.
legit thugs, that's for sure. The day we let someone walk out of jail for felonious assault and into practice is the day I die....
Alabama - 49 MSU - 7
They are not legit. Michigan just didn't get it done when they needed to. A lot of missed scoring opportunities on Saturday. I still think Michigan will get 9-10 wins including the bowl this year.
They've beaten us four times when our collective B1G record has been 8-19 (including this season so far). Take out the 4 MSU losses and we are 8-15. The super majority of B1G teams that we played beat us and MSU really is nothing special in this regard.
Fifth-year senior Kirk Cousins can hold up his four fingers all he wants, but the timeframe he is referring to involved two coaching transitions and a lot of attrition. The fact that Brady Hoke coached a game that was closer than the score indicated and, in fact, winnable, speaks more to our return to legitimacy than them passing that threshold.
Uh, no. More history with The Game than Micihgan State, and I've never legit walked away from The Game completely disgusted at the actions of the Ohio State players.
I have SOME semblance of respect for Ohio State. I have ZERO respect for the Michigan State Little Brother program.
when they even keep it close against top competition i will consider it. then i will remember that it won't last more than a season tops and i will continue to regard them as street trash.
I'll believe it when they start selling jerseys in Ohio.
MSU will never be equal to OSU. The Buckeyes are and will always be our biggest rival. MSU is a 2nd tier program...period.
"Say what you want about morals, but sometimes you do have to play down to your enemies level."- OP
I disagree. If Sparty is going to play as they did on Saturday, then in my opinion, they will never be a legitimate program. A legitimate program can beat you without all the unsportmanslike conduct and do so consistently.
I don't think MSU is legit, I don't even think about MSU besides 1 game a year, we lost move on we have bigger fish to fry!
Are you fucking serious? MSU is better but until they win either multiple BCS games or a natl title they'll be a regional program at best.
MSU beats us during a transition period after losing 6 straight to us and they're dominant?
Michigan State's defense is legit. Overall, they're an above average team.
Their offense is mediocre, and it all starts with the offensive line. They're simply not that good. If you watched the Notre Dame game, it got so bad that MSU had to resort to holding Aaron Lynch to keep him away from Kirk Cousins. He was in the backfield on virtually every play.
I hate that we have to look back beyond the recent past to show that MSU isn't legit. The fact is they beat us the last 4 years and OSU has beaten the last I don't know how many times. MSU is good right now. It pains me to read the Little Brother comments or the comments about "we're recruiting now and normalcy will return in a year or two." F that. It is always next year for us. No one ever considers the fact that Dantonio has changed MSU. I think he has. He may be an ass but he's a good coach and he makes damn sure his guys are ready to play us. They get up for us, even if it means sacrificing the next game. I wish we had that intensity.
"Woops, I just pissed off the mgoworld." - dieseljr32 in a message he sent me
I'm afraid to take him with me to the Purdue game next weekend. Don't kill us if you somehow figure out who we are, and see us at the game.
Anyways, it is indeed time to move on. I don't really care about anything regarding MSU until December 9th/10th when we play them in hockey.
Is it always "WE'LL GET EM' NEXT YEAR!!!"? This isn't your daddy's michigan team. You can stop jerking it to Charles Woodson pictures from 20 years ago anytime. MSU is here to stay
C'mon! This is Michigan Fergawdsakes
they win the B1G Championship and win the Rose Bowl. Then maybe, just maybe, I will call them half way legit. I wish they moved to the MAC or Big East, and we only played them once every 5 years or so. No one cares about msu.
Let Sparty win 33 more in a row to tie the series. Then, maybe, they can call themselves "legit."
Michigan is their only true rivalry game. Michigan has three true rivalry games. Sparty won their Super Bowl again. Big fucking deal. It doesn't make them "legit." They need to at least have a few good years in a row before they can be considered "legit." Staying within 41 points of Alabama next time might help their case a bit, too.
That is all.
I'm very interested to look at Dantonio's "Spartan for Life" extension and see if there's an out clause for OSU...
Yeah right, we have started destroying them again in recruiting and life will be back to normal from next year on.